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The Second Amendment and the Preamble to the Bill of Rights
The Sierra Times ^ | 11 June 2003 | Robert Greenslade and Claude Ellsworth

Posted on 06/12/2003 11:36:10 AM PDT by 45Auto

The modern debate over the wording of the Second Amendment could be quickly resolved if the Amendment was read through the preamble to the Bill of Rights. A preamble to the Bill of Rights? What are you talking about? You mean the preamble to the Constitution don't you? No Senators Kennedy, Feinstein, Schumer, Lautenberg and your fellow gun-grabbing buddies, we mean the preamble to the Bill of Rights. Next to Hillary Clinton's billing records from the Rose Law Firm, this little known text might be the most closely guarded secret in American History.

Following the Federal Convention of 1787 and the subsequent ratification of the Constitution, the several States began submitting amendments to Congress for consideration. By September of 1789 Congress had reduced 210 separate amendments to 12. The amendments were inserted into a congressional resolution and submitted to the several States for consideration. Of these, numbers 2-12 were adopted and became the so-called Bill of Rights.

A little known fact about this resolution is that it contained a preamble declaring the purpose of the proposed amendments. Most modern editions of the Bill of Rights either do not contain the preamble or only include the last paragraph. The complete preamble, which is still part of the Bill of Rights, is printed below as it appeared in the 1789 resolution:

Congress of the United States, begun and held at the City of New York, on Wednesday the fourth of March, one thousand seven hundred and eighty nine.

THE Conventions of a number of the States, having at the time of their adopting the Constitution, expressed a desire, in order to prevent misconstruction or abuse of its powers, that further declaratory and restrictive clauses should be added: And as extending the ground of public confidence in the Government, will best ensure the beneficent ends of its institution.

RESOLVED by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America, in Congress assembled, two thirds of both Houses concurring, that the following Articles be proposed to the Legislatures of the several States, as Amendments to the Constitution of the United States, all, or any of which Articles, when ratified by three fourths of the said Legislatures, to be valid to all intents and purposes, as part of the said Constitution; viz.t

ARTICLES in addition to, and Amendment of the Constitution of the United States of America, proposed by Congress, and ratified by the Legislatures of the several States, pursuant to the fifth Article of the original Constitution.

As stated in the preamble, the only purpose of the proposed amendments was to prevent the federal government from "misconstruing or abusing its powers." To accomplish this, "further declaratory and restrictive clauses" were being proposed. The amendments, when adopted, placed additional restraints or limitations on the powers of the federal government. Thus, every clause of the Bill of Rights, without exception, is either a declaratory statement or a restrictive provision.

A declaratory clause, pursuant to English language dictionaries, is a simple statement or assertion. A restrictive clause is a statement that restricts or limits. If the Second Amendment is read through the preamble, it reads as follows:

Article II. A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, (declaratory clause) the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. (restrictive clause)

The first part of the Amendment is declaratory, not restrictive, because it is merely an assertion or statement that a well-regulated militia is necessary to the security of a free State. It does not grant the States or the people any rights. It also does not restrict the federal government from exercising any power. Thus, the first part of the Amendment has no effect on the right to keep and bear arms, "collective [State] or individual."

The second clause, like the first, does not grant the States or the people any rights. Therefore, any assertion that the Second Amendment grants rights, "collective or individual," is constitutionally inaccurate. In addition, since the Amendment did not create any rights, then the right enumerated, whether it be collective or individual, had to be an existing right.

This leaves us with only one option concerning the second part of the Amendment. It is restrictive, not declaratory, because it specifically places a restraint on the exercise of power by the federal government.

Those groups and individuals opposed to the private ownership of firearms claim this restraint pertains to the State militias. According to the Brady Campaign, the Second Amendment was adopted "to prevent the federal government from disarming the State militias."

The U.S. Constitution established a permanent professional army, controlled by the federal government. With the memory of King George III's troops fresh in their minds, many of the "anti-federalists" feared a standing army as an instrument of oppression. State militias were viewed as a counterbalance to the federal army and the Second Amendment was written to prevent the federal government from disarming the state militias.

The Coalition to Stop Gun Violence claims the Amendment was adopted to "ensure the right of the states to maintain their own militias."

The Second Amendment was adopted to ensure the right of states to maintain their own militia to protect themselves against foreign and federal encroachment.

The Second Amendment, as shown by the preamble, does not place any restraint on the powers federal government concerning the States or their militias. Consequently, any assertion the Second Amendment restricts the powers of the federal government concerning the State militias is patently false.

There is another way to use the preamble to prove this fact. In a sentence, a non-restrictive clause gives information that is not essential to the meaning of a sentence. This information can be removed without changing the meaning of the sentence. A restrictive clause gives information that is critical to the meaning of a sentence and cannot be removed without changing the meaning of a sentence. If the Second Amendment is read through this sentence structure, the declaratory clause in the first part of the Amendment is the non-restrictive clause because it does not restrain the exercise of power. Thus, the Amendment reads as follows:

Article II. A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, (non-restrictive clause) the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. (restrictive clause)

This sentence structure triggers a question. Is the existence of a State militia essential to a people's right to keep and bear arms? The answer is no because people can have a right to keep and bear arms without the existence of a State militia. In the alternative, since the word militia, as used in the Second Amendment refers to an armed citizenry, not a State organized army, you cannot have a State militia unless that same people has the right to keep and bear arms. From a constitutional standpoint, State militias exist because the individual citizens who make-up those militias have the right to keep and bear arms. Thus, the individual right to keep and bear arms is essential to the existence of a State militia--not visa versa.

Since the phrase--"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State," is the non-restrictive or non-essential part of the Amendment, then, as stated above, it can be removed without changing the meaning of the sentence. In addition, this phrase is an incomplete thought and cannot stand alone as a sentence. Thus, it needs addition information to give it meaning.

Conversely, the phrase--"the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed," is the restrictive or essential part of the Amendment. It cannot be removed without changing the meaning of the sentence. This phrase is a complete thought and can stand alone as a sentence because it does not need additional information to give it meaning.

If the non-restrictive part is removed and the Amendment is read in a manner that allows the verbiage to stand alone as a complete thought, then the Second Amendment can be reduced to the following sentence:

[T]he right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

Those groups and individuals who advance the militia interpretation of the Second Amendment have failed to grasp the significance of this verbiage. If the purpose of the Second Amendment was to prevent the federal government from disarming the State militias as organizations like the Brady Campaign claim, then this sentence structure accomplishes that goal. By denying the federal government the power to infringe the existing right of the people right to keep and bear arms, the State militias could never be constitutionally disarmed because the people of the individual States are the militia referenced in the Amendment. Thus, the States would retain the so-called right to maintain armed militias. Irrespective of how organizations like the Coalition to Stop Gun Violence attempt to twist the sentence structure of the Second Amendment, it is the right of individual citizens to keep and bear arms that ensures the existence of the State militias contemplated by the Founders.

In conclusion, the preamble to the Bill of Rights shows that the purpose of the Amendments was to prevent the federal government from abusing its delegated powers. To accomplish this, further declaratory and restrictive clauses were being added to restrain the exercise of power by the federal government. Thus, the preamble negates any assertion that the purpose of the Second Amendment was to grant the States the right to maintain armed militias. It also negates the claim that the Amendment granted the people an individual right to keep and bear arms. The sole purpose of the Second Amendment was to place an enumerated restraint on the powers of the federal government concerning the existing right of the people to keep and bear arms.


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism
KEYWORDS: bang; banglist; rkba

1 posted on 06/12/2003 11:36:10 AM PDT by 45Auto
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To: 45Auto
As stated in the preamble, the only purpose of the proposed amendments was to prevent the federal government from "misconstruing or abusing its powers."

"The Second Amendment declares that it shall not be infringed, but this, as has been seen, means no more than that it shall not be infringed by Congress." -- US Supreme Court, U.S. v. Cruikshank, 92 U.S. 542 (1875), Presser v. State of Illinois, 116 U.S. 252 (1886)

2 posted on 06/12/2003 11:41:04 AM PDT by Roscoe
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To: 45Auto
The problem is that Liberal don't care what the strict constructionist view of the Constitution dictates, including Liberal federal judges.

They only care about their agenda.

That's why the upcoming Supreme Court appointments are the real prize, and that's why the DEMO(N)cRATS are opposing conservative judges so viciously.
3 posted on 06/12/2003 11:43:19 AM PDT by E. Pluribus Unum (Drug prohibition laws help support terrorism.)
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To: 45Auto
The Rights of "the people" or "we the people"
refer to individual rights..not collective ones
Rights are derived from our Creator or The Creator
The documents all spell out what it is the state cannot do to rights derived from The Creator
And not from a King or body of legislators or a force of arms representative of such govt agents
We the people have been led astray...for many years..
4 posted on 06/12/2003 11:58:13 AM PDT by joesnuffy (Moderate Islam Is For Dilettantes)
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To: *bang_list
http://www.freerepublic.com/perl/bump-list
5 posted on 06/12/2003 12:09:57 PM PDT by Libertarianize the GOP (Ideas have consequences)
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To: 45Auto
Aside from the obvious fact that the Bill of Rights enumerates rights of citizens, not rights for any governmental agencies such as state governments. To think that the 2nd Amendment is a right for government makes a mockery of the rest of them, IMO.
6 posted on 06/12/2003 12:13:01 PM PDT by Sam Cree (HHDerelict)
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To: Roscoe
As stated in the preamble, the only purpose of the proposed amendments was to prevent the federal government from "misconstruing or abusing its powers."

"The Second Amendment declares that it shall not be infringed, but this, as has been seen, means no more than that it shall not be infringed by Congress." -- US Supreme Court, U.S. v. Cruikshank, 92 U.S. 542 (1875), Presser v. State of Illinois, 116 U.S. 252 (1886)

Then by extension, the States would be free to deny our freedom of religion, speech, assembly......

7 posted on 06/12/2003 12:34:33 PM PDT by NY.SS-Bar9
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To: 45Auto
Look at this more simply... All of the amendments talk about the rights of the individual, such as speech, self incrimination, etc... Why would they mix in one amendment that covers a collective right with nine others that address individual rights? Plainly, they wouldn't. The Second Amendment has to be viewed as an individual right to bear arms.
8 posted on 06/12/2003 1:14:14 PM PDT by vrwinger
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To: NY.SS-Bar9
Then by extension, the States would be free to deny our freedom of religion, speech, assembly......

Those have been "incorporated" by the USSC.

9 posted on 06/12/2003 1:34:04 PM PDT by Roscoe
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To: 45Auto; Joe Brower; harpseal; Shooter 2.5; Mulder; Noumenon; Squantos; wardaddy
"A well-educated electorate, being necessary to the improvement of a free state, the right of the people to keep and read books, shall not be infringed."

Obviously, this means that only professionally trained educators at state educational institutions can own any books that they like.

Large complicated and controversial books are much too dangerous for the average ciitizen to own and read willy-nilly.

Think of the damage that Mein Kampf, Das Kapital and the Koran have caused in the wrong hands.

Common-sense book control is in all of our interests. This does not mean I am against books, I own several, and I consider myself a dedicated book reader.

But they are all safe books which have been appoved for general reading by government-trained educators.

10 posted on 06/12/2003 1:34:23 PM PDT by Travis McGee (----- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com -----)
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To: Roscoe
Why do you think the 2nd had not been incorporated?
11 posted on 06/12/2003 2:20:51 PM PDT by FSPress
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To: 45Auto
This article is difficult to read without being able to see which parts are quoted passages, and which are the autor's words. Here is a version preserving the original formatting:

The Second Amendment and the
Preamble to the Bill of Rights

By Robert Greenslade and Claude Ellsworth
The modern debate over the wording of the Second Amendment could be quickly resolved if the Amendment was read through the preamble to the Bill of Rights. A preamble to the Bill of Rights? What are you talking about? You mean the preamble to the Constitution don't you? No Senators Kennedy, Feinstein, Schumer, Lautenberg and your fellow gun-grabbing buddies, we mean the preamble to the Bill of Rights. Next to Hillary Clinton's billing records from the Rose Law Firm, this little known text might be the most closely guarded secret in American History.

Following the Federal Convention of 1787 and the subsequent ratification of the Constitution, the several States began submitting amendments to Congress for consideration. By September of 1789 Congress had reduced 210 separate amendments to 12. The amendments were inserted into a congressional resolution and submitted to the several States for consideration. Of these, numbers 2-12 were adopted and became the so-called Bill of Rights.

A little known fact about this resolution is that it contained a preamble declaring the purpose of the proposed amendments. Most modern editions of the Bill of Rights either do not contain the preamble or only include the last paragraph. The complete preamble, which is still part of the Bill of Rights, is printed below as it appeared in the 1789 resolution:

Congress of the United States,
begun and held at the City of New York, on Wednesday the fourth of March, one thousand seven hundred and eighty nine.

THE Conventions of a number of the States, having at the time of their adopting the Constitution, expressed a desire, in order to prevent misconstruction or abuse of its powers, that further declaratory and restrictive clauses should be added: And as extending the ground of public confidence in the Government, will best ensure the beneficent ends of its institution.

RESOLVED by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America, in Congress assembled, two thirds of both Houses concurring, that the following Articles be proposed to the Legislatures of the several States, as Amendments to the Constitution of the United States, all, or any of which Articles, when ratified by three fourths of the said Legislatures, to be valid to all intents and purposes, as part of the said Constitution; viz.t

ARTICLES in addition to, and Amendment of the Constitution of the United States of America, proposed by Congress, and ratified by the Legislatures of the several States, pursuant to the fifth Article of the original Constitution.

As stated in the preamble, the only purpose of the proposed amendments was to prevent the federal government from "misconstruing or abusing its powers." To accomplish this, "further declaratory and restrictive clauses" were being proposed. The amendments, when adopted, placed additional restraints or limitations on the powers of the federal government. Thus, every clause of the Bill of Rights, without exception, is either a declaratory statement or a restrictive provision.

A declaratory clause, pursuant to English language dictionaries, is a simple statement or assertion. A restrictive clause is a statement that restricts or limits. If the Second Amendment is read through the preamble, it reads as follows:

Article II. A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, (declaratory clause) the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. (restrictive clause)

The first part of the Amendment is declaratory, not restrictive, because it is merely an assertion or statement that a well-regulated militia is necessary to the security of a free State. It does not grant the States or the people any rights. It also does not restrict the federal government from exercising any power. Thus, the first part of the Amendment has no effect on the right to keep and bear arms, "collective [State] or individual."

The second clause, like the first, does not grant the States or the people any rights. Therefore, any assertion that the Second Amendment grants rights, "collective or individual," is constitutionally inaccurate. In addition, since the Amendment did not create any rights, then the right enumerated, whether it be collective or individual, had to be an existing right.

This leaves us with only one option concerning the second part of the Amendment. It is restrictive, not declaratory, because it specifically places a restraint on the exercise of power by the federal government.

Those groups and individuals opposed to the private ownership of firearms claim this restraint pertains to the State militias. According to the Brady Campaign, the Second Amendment was adopted "to prevent the federal government from disarming the State militias."

The U.S. Constitution established a permanent professional army, controlled by the federal government. With the memory of King George III's troops fresh in their minds, many of the "anti-federalists" feared a standing army as an instrument of oppression. State militias were viewed as a counterbalance to the federal army and the Second Amendment was written to prevent the federal government from disarming the state militias.

The Coalition to Stop Gun Violence claims the Amendment was adopted to "ensure the right of the states to maintain their own militias."

The Second Amendment was adopted to ensure the right of states to maintain their own militia to protect themselves against foreign and federal encroachment.

The Second Amendment, as shown by the preamble, does not place any restraint on the powers federal government concerning the States or their militias. Consequently, any assertion the Second Amendment restricts the powers of the federal government concerning the State militias is patently false.

There is another way to use the preamble to prove this fact. In a sentence, a non-restrictive clause gives information that is not essential to the meaning of a sentence. This information can be removed without changing the meaning of the sentence. A restrictive clause gives information that is critical to the meaning of a sentence and cannot be removed without changing the meaning of a sentence. If the Second Amendment is read through this sentence structure, the declaratory clause in the first part of the Amendment is the non-restrictive clause because it does not restrain the exercise of power. Thus, the Amendment reads as follows:

Article II. A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, (non-restrictive clause) the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. (restrictive clause)

This sentence structure triggers a question. Is the existence of a State militia essential to a people's right to keep and bear arms? The answer is no because people can have a right to keep and bear arms without the existence of a State militia. In the alternative, since the word militia, as used in the Second Amendment refers to an armed citizenry, not a State organized army, you cannot have a State militia unless that same people has the right to keep and bear arms. From a constitutional standpoint, State militias exist because the individual citizens who make-up those militias have the right to keep and bear arms. Thus, the individual right to keep and bear arms is essential to the existence of a State militia--not visa versa.

Since the phrase--"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State," is the non-restrictive or non-essential part of the Amendment, then, as stated above, it can be removed without changing the meaning of the sentence. In addition, this phrase is an incomplete thought and cannot stand alone as a sentence. Thus, it needs addition information to give it meaning.

Conversely, the phrase--"the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed," is the restrictive or essential part of the Amendment. It cannot be removed without changing the meaning of the sentence. This phrase is a complete thought and can stand alone as a sentence because it does not need additional information to give it meaning.

If the non-restrictive part is removed and the Amendment is read in a manner that allows the verbiage to stand alone as a complete thought, then the Second Amendment can be reduced to the following sentence:

[T]he right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

Those groups and individuals who advance the militia interpretation of the Second Amendment have failed to grasp the significance of this verbiage. If the purpose of the Second Amendment was to prevent the federal government from disarming the State militias as organizations like the Brady Campaign claim, then this sentence structure accomplishes that goal. By denying the federal government the power to infringe the existing right of the people right to keep and bear arms, the State militias could never be constitutionally disarmed because the people of the individual States are the militia referenced in the Amendment. Thus, the States would retain the so-called right to maintain armed militias. Irrespective of how organizations like the Coalition to Stop Gun Violence attempt to twist the sentence structure of the Second Amendment, it is the right of individual citizens to keep and bear arms that ensures the existence of the State militias contemplated by the Founders.

In conclusion, the preamble to the Bill of Rights shows that the purpose of the Amendments was to prevent the federal government from abusing its delegated powers. To accomplish this, further declaratory and restrictive clauses were being added to restrain the exercise of power by the federal government. Thus, the preamble negates any assertion that the purpose of the Second Amendment was to grant the States the right to maintain armed militias. It also negates the claim that the Amendment granted the people an individual right to keep and bear arms. The sole purpose of the Second Amendment was to place an enumerated restraint on the powers of the federal government concerning the existing right of the people to keep and bear arms.


12 posted on 06/12/2003 2:29:00 PM PDT by Atlas Sneezed
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To: FSPress
Why do you think the 2nd had not been incorporated?

Because the reasons used to justify the incorporation of other elements of the BOR were not present in the case of the 2nd. What do you think?

13 posted on 06/12/2003 2:31:05 PM PDT by Roscoe
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To: Roscoe
Interesting!
14 posted on 06/12/2003 2:43:00 PM PDT by c-b 1
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To: Roscoe
It is curious that an ammendment that starts off with "Congress shall make now laws..." would be considered for incorporation while the second is viewed as a prohibition only against the federal government and in no respect restricts the states. Wonder why that is?
15 posted on 06/12/2003 2:45:54 PM PDT by FSPress
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To: FSPress
Correction " Congress shall make no laws...."
16 posted on 06/12/2003 2:46:51 PM PDT by FSPress
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To: Roscoe
"In the Second, it is declared.....that "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." The prohibition is general. No clause in the Constitution could, by any rule of construction, be concieved to give the Congress a power to disarm the people. A flagitious attempt could only be made under some general pretense by a State legislature. But if, in any blind pursuit of inordinate power, either [the State or federal government] should attempt it, this Amendment may be appealed to as a restraint on both."

William Rawle, "View of the Constitution", 1825
17 posted on 06/12/2003 3:25:16 PM PDT by Abe Froman
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To: 45Auto
The Second Amendment contains only a single comma.
18 posted on 06/12/2003 7:27:28 PM PDT by boris
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To: Abe Froman
"But if, in any blind pursuit of inordinate power, either [the State or federal government] should attempt it, this Amendment may be appealed to as a restraint on both."

Close. The actual line reads, "But if in any blind pursuit of inordinate power, either should attempt it, this amendment may be appealed to as a restraint on both."

In that respect his unique interpretation of the 2nd Amendment ran counter to all other legal and historical authorities.

But keep going.

"This right ought not, however, in any government, to be abused to the disturbance of the public peace."

"An assemblage of persons with arms, for an unlawful purpose, is an indictable offence, and even the carrying of arms abroad by a single individual, attended with circumstances giving just reason to fear that he purposes to make an unlawful use of them, would be sufficient cause to require him to give surety of the peace. If he refused he would be liable to imprisonment."

William Rawle


19 posted on 06/13/2003 12:59:33 AM PDT by Roscoe
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To: Roscoe
Oh, and I think your actual line is identical to mine, I don't know why you're saying that I was wrong. Obviously the bracketed words are not intended to be ascribed to Rawle.
20 posted on 06/13/2003 7:40:28 AM PDT by Abe Froman
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To: Abe Froman; Roscoe
To: Roscoe

Oh, and I think your actual line is identical to mine, I don't know why you're saying that I was wrong. Obviously the bracketed words are not intended to be ascribed to Rawle.
20 -AF-


Roscoe is a closet gun control FReak..
-- He likes to cloak his socialistic agenda with 'states rights' BS; --
-- but his true stripe shows up in his total support of the CA 'assault weapon' prohibitions..

He's a 'regulator'.
-- In his eyes, any level of government can stop any action or ban any article, if a 'socially good' reason to do so can be dreamed up by a moral majority.. - Its the democratic way, dontcha know..
21 posted on 06/13/2003 9:48:46 AM PDT by tpaine (Really, I'm trying to be a 'decent human being', but me flesh is weak.)
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To: tpaine
support of the CA 'assault weapon' prohibitions..

False, sourceless. Naturally.

22 posted on 06/13/2003 9:52:52 AM PDT by Roscoe
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To: 45Auto
bttt
23 posted on 06/13/2003 9:53:30 AM PDT by Aric2000 (If the history of science shows us anything, it is that we get nowhere by labeling our ignorance god)
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To: 45Auto

24 posted on 06/13/2003 9:56:59 AM PDT by Fiddlstix (~~~ http://www.ourgangnet.net ~~~~~)
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To: Roscoe
The 'source' is your own posts.

Anyone can look up your comments on gun threads.
--You've been advocating the big government 'regulating' position here for years..
25 posted on 06/13/2003 10:55:42 AM PDT by tpaine (Really, I'm trying to be a 'decent human being', but me flesh is weak.)
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To: tpaine
The 'source' is your own posts.

False.

26 posted on 06/13/2003 10:56:49 AM PDT by Roscoe
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To: Roscoe
Denial
27 posted on 06/13/2003 10:57:27 AM PDT by tpaine (Really, I'm trying to be a 'decent human being', but me flesh is weak.)
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To: Roscoe
COPS CRASH E HARLEM WEAPONS DEN (GUN CONFISCATION OF LAW ABIDING CITIZEN Thru Tip From Criminal)
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/focus/news/669831/posts

-- #1043 Roscoe on RTKBA
28 posted on 06/13/2003 11:02:15 AM PDT by tpaine (Really, I'm trying to be a 'decent human being', but me flesh is weak.)
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To: tpaine
"This thread has been pulled."
29 posted on 06/13/2003 11:08:32 AM PDT by Roscoe
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To: Roscoe
Hmmmm, -- why was that?


In any case, why don't you reiterate your real thoughts on the matter?
I believe they echoed many of Sara Brady's, but feel free to correct me.
30 posted on 06/13/2003 11:38:39 AM PDT by tpaine (Really, I'm trying to be a 'decent human being', but me flesh is weak.)
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To: tpaine
why don't you reiterate your real thoughts on the matter?

OK. The protection of the right to keep and bear arms at the state level has always had its foundations in state constitutions and state laws.

You're free to try to produce so much as a single exception.

You can't, you won't. Old news.

31 posted on 06/13/2003 12:55:16 PM PDT by Roscoe
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To: Roscoe
The protection of the right to keep and bear arms {at the state level} has always had its foundations in state constitutions and state laws.

You're free to try to produce so much as a single exception.
You can't, you won't. Old news.
31 -roscoe-


What an absolutely daffy statement. Why would ~anyone~ try to find an "exception" to such an obviously redundant bit of idiocy?

However, the position that:

--- 'The protection of the right to keep and bear arms has always had its foundations in state constitutions and state laws' --,
-- certainly can be held; --

-- ignoring the fact that it has little or no bearing on your being a closet gun grabber, roscoe..

32 posted on 06/13/2003 2:00:09 PM PDT by tpaine (Really, I'm trying to be a 'decent human being', but me flesh is weak.)
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To: tpaine
Why would ~anyone~ try to find an "exception

Because that person had taken the inane contrary position that centralized federal power and an activist federal judiciary should replace those state mechanisms.

Poor you.

33 posted on 06/13/2003 2:36:59 PM PDT by Roscoe
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To: Roscoe
Even more daffy that you would imagine an opponent of yours has taken such an inane contrary position, roscoe.

Poor you, -- you seem to be grabbing at straws.
34 posted on 06/13/2003 2:41:48 PM PDT by tpaine (Really, I'm trying to be a 'decent human being', but me flesh is weak.)
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To: Travis McGee
But they are all safe books which have been appoved for general reading by government-trained educators.

Good analogy.

35 posted on 06/13/2003 6:13:34 PM PDT by Mulder (Live Free or die)
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To: Roscoe
Thanks for coming around to bump the thread. Your support is appreciated.
36 posted on 06/13/2003 7:14:01 PM PDT by Travis McGee (----- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com -----)
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To: Mulder
Thanks, I wish I could claim I had thought up the book analogy.
37 posted on 06/13/2003 7:14:50 PM PDT by Travis McGee (----- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com -----)
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To: tpaine
Strange comment, coming from an apologist for Roe v Wade.
38 posted on 06/14/2003 12:30:06 AM PDT by Roscoe
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To: Roscoe
Roscoe is a closet gun control FReak..
-- He likes to cloak his socialistic agenda with 'states rights' BS; --
-- but his true stripe shows up in his total support of the CA 'assault weapon' prohibitions..
He's a 'regulator'.
-- In his eyes, any level of government can stop any action or ban any article, if a 'socially good' reason to do so can be dreamed up by a moral majority.. - Its the democratic way, dontcha know..
-21-



As I said above, roscoe, you're a 'regulator'.. You want big brother to prohibit guns, outlaw drugs, ban abortion, and no doubt, banish all known 'sin' by taxing it to death. -- Blue nosed socialism like yours is a disease. Get medical help.
39 posted on 06/14/2003 9:14:38 AM PDT by tpaine (Really, I'm trying to be a 'decent human being', but me flesh is weak.)
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To: tpaine
Sourceless falsehoods are all you have.
40 posted on 06/14/2003 12:08:34 PM PDT by Roscoe
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