White House Backs Latest Israeli Attacks

The Washington Post (Excerpted) ^ | 06/13/2003 | Glenn Kessler

[DoughtyOne]

To: DoughtyOne

Not only can you not understand the finner workings of the dynamics in the middle east, you can't even understand that your comments damning Arial Sharon all week for responding to terrorist attacks, has now been exhonerated by the man who's plan you have been defending by doing so.

I understand whats going on in the ME perfectly. I also understand that your backtracking bigtime because you stuck both your feet in your big mouth.

At the beginning of the week Bush was still talking down to Israel because they defended themselves.  What I have been saying all along was that Israel had every right to defend themselves.  You objected to that.  Well now Bush agrees.  The Post and several other papers are now reporting that Bush supports a crackdown on Hamas right now during the peace process.  All week you have been arguing that Sharon should not have joined the peace proces if he didn't mean to comply.  Now you tell me who has changed their spots?

The comments damning PM Sharon have not been retracted by PresBush and will not be retracted. Therefore PresBush hasn't exonerated Sharon, one iota. Bush doesn't talk out both sides of his mouth, like you do. Remember that. I hope this has taught you a good lesson.

Good Lord, go to the Breaking News column and you'll find two or three articles there that state that Bush is now advocating a crack-down on Hamas.  That's what Sharon is doing.  As I said, and you ridiculed me for saying, "you cannot understand the finer workings of the dynamics in the middle east."

Nobody accused Bush of speaking out of both sides of his mouth, until you raised the issue here.  And yes this has taught me more of the same lesson, you're clueless.

Not only this, I didn't have a problem with Bush's Road Map per se, I did have a problem if he was going to persue that Road Map over Israel's dead body. Well, guess what, he's not going to do that. This must be a great blow to you.

You're a first class liar.

Oh I don't want to take call your glory.  You deserve that comment more than I do.

Its no blow to me, I've supported the Bush peace plan all along and still do.

My emphasis has not been the Road Map per se.  Instead for the last 24 hours you and I have been discussing Sharon's crackdown on Hamas.  For that period of time you have demanded that Sharon cease his efforts to take out Hamas leaders.  I stated that Sharon has a right to defend his nation.  You said that Sharon should not have signed on to the peace plan if he didn't plan to follow through.

I highly criticized your comments on this point.  I mentioned that Sharon had started illegal settlement removal, had eased travel restrictions and had provided millions of dollars to the Palestinian authority to help them re-establish their police force in order to crack down on terrorists.  What I failed to mention was that Israel also released over 100 prisoners.  I did however ask you to please mention one tangible thing Abu Mazen had done.  You failed to respond.  Then I pointed out that you always damned Sharon even though he complied fair more than Abu Mazen.  I also pointed out that the terrorist organizations didn't make any promises at all, and you didn't even damn them, other than to make a few glib comments.

Now Bush is calling for a crackdown on Hamas, which is exactly what you and I have been addressing for 24 hours.  But instead of conceding that I was right to advocate the same thing, you are playing dumb.  Well I should not make such a bold statement, perhaps you're not really playing at it.

I didn't get my emotions all twisted like you did, rush to judgement and jump to all sorts of conclusions. That's what you did and you're not man enough to admit it. Pathetic.

Well I'd have to agree that one of us is certainly bordering on the pathetic.  What do you mean by, "jumping to conclusions"?

White House Backs Latest Israeli Attacks
U.S. Dispatches Diplomat, Backs Hamas Crackdown
Powell's call to fight Hamas

These are three titles that can easily be found in Breaking News right now.  They back up the premise I made on this thread.  Bush policy has shifted.

The peace plan is still being driven, but military action has now become a component, as it should have years ago.

It is crystal clear that your charge that I jumped to conclusions is not sustainable.

What escapes you also, is that this is EXACTLY WHAT I ADVOCATED.

More lies. Try again.

I advocated a crackdown on the terrorists.  You stated that Sharon should refrain from all military action because he was throwing away the chance for peace.

One of us is lying alright.

As for egg fella, have a nice breakfast. I hear it goes good with crow.

I wouldn't know, bucko. You're the one jumping on the Bush bandwagon. But I'll say it again, welcome onborad. Better late then never! LOL

Not to put too fine a point on this, but perhaps Bush read my responses to you in the last 24 hours.  I agree with his new policy, which I advocated on this forum for everyone to read.

I do agree with you on one point though.  Better late than never.

53 posted on 06/12/2003 10:55 PM PDT by Reagan Man

[Howlin]

Well now Bush agrees.

Now stop right there; what you thought Bush was thinking was just your opinion of what Bush was doing.

Some of us don't believe he's changed anything.

[MJY1288]

BTW, someone needs to ping the 3 or 4 FReepers who have been posting the hundreds of "Blame Bush" for attacks upon Isreal threads,

I wont because my flame proof "Nomex" jammies are at the dry cleaners after my last encounter with them :-)

[Howlin]

You're kidding, right? I'd be accused of "tramping in the blood of the victims in Israel" for sure.

[MJY1288]

LOL, The reason why I don't want to ping them is very simple and easily explained...

It's because: I was shot in the leg, not in the head :-)

[DoughtyOne]

To: DoughtyOne

Well now Bush agrees.

Now stop right there; what you thought Bush was thinking was just your opinion of what Bush was doing.

Some of us don't believe he's changed anything.

62 posted on 06/12/2003 11:26 PM PDT by Howlin
 

Howlin, please read the post.  Just read the post.  Do you see those three titles toward the end in red.  Please tell me you can.

White House Backs Latest Israeli Attacks
U.S. Dispatches Diplomat, Backs Hamas Crackdown
Powell's call to fight Hamas

Do you honestly not see any change in policy here?  Seriously?

Name one time since Bush became President when he backed Israeli military actions against Hamas and called for a crackdown on them.

This is a night and day issue as far as I am concerned.

[Ready4Freddy]

DoughtyOne, I'm not damning Mazen - I just think he's arafat's sock puppet, and certainly has no portfolio to "consolidate his support enough to make a big difference". I think he's dead arab walking because his own people will off him, probably sooner than later.

His appointment was the thinnest tissue of fiction that arafat isn't still in charge. Any thinner, and perhaps the Bush admin would not have thought it sufficient 'regime change' to 'unveil' the Road Map.

What do I think needs to be done?

1) - arrest, if not kill, arafat immediately. We & Israel both have enough terrorist goods on the guy to put him away. Prolly best that he dies before trial, tho. ;)

2) - Israel needs to stock up on guns / ammo / spare parts immediately, and get ready for the big one. It's time that they start doing what's right for Israel. The gradualism that even the bad a$$e$ like Bibi and Sharon have indulged in doesn't cut it. I don't think that the US has been holding Israel back - if that is the case, then Israeli admin upon admin has failed their country miserably. It's time for Israel to show that they have what it takes to protect themselves.

3) - Israel can take out a lot of the terrorists themselves, but it'll take the US to get them in areas outside of Israel / West Bank / Gaza. It'll also take the US to get the arab states to stop funding the terrorists (id indeed we can).

4) - If there's anyone left in the West Bank / Gaza after arafat & Hamas, et al are gone, we'll see if any of them have the guts to make peace & declare statehood. It's going to take some convincing before I think that there is a meaningful 'moderate' pali population.

[Howlin]

If this is a night and day issue for you, you're totally misjudged George Bush and his policy.

The minute he mentioned this roadmap last year, everybody on this forum KNEW that it would never work........ever.....and that the PA wouldn't make it to the first requirements, stopping the violence.

What I see that you don't see -- or don't want to -- is that he couldn't come right out the very first day and say KILL THEM ALL -- we have to at least LOOK like we're trying to do it by the book for the consumption of the rest of the world.

You see night and day; I see a well worked out plan.

[Ready4Freddy]

"Some of us don't believe he's changed anything."

He's at least changed the stated policy of 'do as I say, not as I do'. May well have been telling Sharon to do what he needs to do all along, but the public statements detailed in this article are certainly a change.

[McGavin999]

If you couldn't see this plan being laid out, months perhaps even a year ago............Look back carefully at what has happened. Read what's been said the past 2 months. It all leads to the same place. When I heard all the squealing about the roadmap I was totally amazed that people couldn't figure out what was going on.

[McGavin999]

Nah, why bother. They'll just claim that it was all their screaming that did the trick. LOL, if they weren't bright enough to figure out the plan how can you expect them to figure out that these things don't materialize overnight.

BTW, anyone notice the student protests in Iran? Mmmmmm, who was it again who was financing hizbollah?

[Howlin]

First they screamed because he didn't DO anything, then they screamed because he did DO something.....now, apparently, they are going to scream because he didn't SAY what he was going to do OUT LOUD to them personally.

[DoughtyOne]

Thanks for the response. I don't have any major quarels with your thoughts. I have thought that Arafat should go for about twenty years. Just when I think he has turned a new leaf, he's worse than he ever was.

I have advocated taking out Palestinian leaders until we get one who will deal. I don't think Bibi or Sharon have done what their instincts tell them to do, go flat out. But then the US has basicly casterated them.

I couldn't beleive that any Israeli in their right mind would concede as much as Barak was going to at Clinton's urging, and then to have Arafat loft his nose and turn away, I would have leveled his compund with him in it shortly after that. All that would have been left was a big flat greasy spot.

[Ready4Freddy]

"If you couldn't see this plan being laid out, months perhaps even a year ago..."

The plan being to change the tune of how the admin publicly addresses Israeli actions against terrorist?

[Howlin]

They'll just claim that it was all their screaming that did the trick.

Whatever do you mean by that?

[McGavin999]

ROTFLMCO! Should have known that Todd would be the first one taking credit for something that OBVIOUSLY has been months in the planning.

[MJY1288]

Oh but the uprising in Iran has nothing to do with the fact that we have 250,000 troops to the west of Iran in Iraq and thousands of Special Ops to the east of Iran in Afghanistan < /sarcasm > OFF :-)

The fact of the matter is this...... We are winning this war on terrorism and with the elimination of Saddam's money being sent to the families of homicide bombers, Israel is better off

[Howlin]

Around our house, we call that trying to get out in front of the parade.

[DoughtyOne]

Well Howlin, I'd love for you to be right, but you aren't.

I have spent the last twenty-four hours discussing this issue with one individual who disagrees with you completely. And he is an ardent Bush supporter, so I don't know how you can state what you do.

There was another individual I spent three hours discussing this issue with who is also a Bush supporter who stated that I must be a traitor to the US if I backed Likud's policies over Bush's. All this because I advocated Israel defend herself.

I tried to explain that we set our policy, but Israel must set her own. Well I was the biggest traitor the US has ever seen because this simple concept was wrong according to him.

I tried to mention to you in another discussion that if we do not come out and openly advocate Israel's right to exist and defend herself, nobody else will. Sadly the Bush administration states once in a while that Israel has a right to exist, but when terrorist attacks occur, they criticize Israel heavily for responding.

Today this was different. Even if the was a planned strategem for long term effect, it left Israel out there dangeling for years while the UN, the EU, the middle eastern nations, Russia and others condemned it resoundly, while we seemingly felt compelled to remain neutral.

Whatever the reason, I welcome what I percieve to be a change.

[MJY1288]

It's a "gift" you know! :-)