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Iranian Students are reportedly holding 3 Hebollah hostage demanding release of 80 students
Interview with Iranians in Tehran | 6.13.2003 | DoctorZin

Posted on 06/14/2003 12:23:39 AM PDT by DoctorZIn

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To: DoctorZIn
The us is backing programming by independent Iraqi TV stations in Baghdad. However, their equipment is outdated and they don't broadcast 24/7. It's not that we aren't broadcasting, it's that we're not broadcasting enough...which will cause disastrous results.

We should definitely give the stations we're 'helping' far more help than we're giving right now.

51 posted on 06/14/2003 10:27:41 AM PDT by cake_crumb (UN Resolutions=Very Expensive, Very SCRATCHY Toilet Paper)
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To: DoctorZIn
why they haven’t heard from President Bush?

So the nest of scorpions are stinging each other? Surprise, surprise. I wouldn't lift a finger to help a scorpion.

52 posted on 06/14/2003 10:28:37 AM PDT by LibWhacker
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To: PeoplesRep_of_LA; DoctorZIn
Agreed that it's a bureaucratic muckup. I believe that they're (the US backed stations) are using broadcast television in Iraq, not satellite. They're also receiving BBC in Arabic (according to the BBC, at least) and VOA...but much more needs to be done. FAST.
53 posted on 06/14/2003 10:34:43 AM PDT by cake_crumb (UN Resolutions=Very Expensive, Very SCRATCHY Toilet Paper)
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To: LibWhacker
... So the nest of scorpions are stinging each other? Surprise, surprise. I wouldn't lift a finger to help a scorpion.


You are calling the students in Iran who are fighting for freedom and secular democracy, "scorpions.?"

Go drink come coffee, you need to wake up.
54 posted on 06/14/2003 10:39:41 AM PDT by DoctorZIn
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To: cake_crumb
but much more needs to be done. FAST

Wait, you said fast referring to the State Dept.

In all seriousness, its not just a screw up, I have heard that State wouldn't back Kurds like they were ordered to because there are many internationalist (read Euro Marxists) there that were trying to undermine the war on Terrorism at every turn.

Something needs to be done to the State Dept FAST, and I'll take on anyone here that bought that BS that an attack from Newt on it was an attack on Bush and knock them out of the park.

55 posted on 06/14/2003 10:40:03 AM PDT by PeoplesRep_of_LA (Press Secret; Of 2 million Shiite pilgrims, only 3000 chanted anti Americanisms--source-Islamonline!)
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To: DoctorZIn
Yeah, right. They're our friends. Hey, I've got an idea . . . Let's give 'em some Stinger missiles!

If I'm asleep, doc, you're in a coma. These people are our enemies. Or did you forget the 444 days?

56 posted on 06/14/2003 10:53:33 AM PDT by LibWhacker
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To: DoctorZIn
As if Hezbollah lives are worth anything...good news nonetheless.
57 posted on 06/14/2003 11:03:58 AM PDT by ApesForEvolution ("The only way evil triumphs is if good men do nothing" E. Burke)
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To: LibWhacker
Old Internet Proverb: It is better to remain a lurker and be suspected ignorant, than to post foolishness and remove all doubt.

For a brief education, the hardcore Islamists you remember so fondly from the Carter era are being opposed by the pro-Western reformist students. The Islamists are the same old crowd as ever, brutal and inept, with a sprinkling of Arab thugs hired from other countries. The students are the younger generation tired of Sharia, poverty and repression, and looking to make Iran a modern country.

If you think that both of these groups are your enemies, then I'd imagine your enemies list is pretty impressive in length.

58 posted on 06/14/2003 11:04:51 AM PDT by Steel Wolf (Stop reading my tag line.)
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To: Steel Wolf
You should take that proverb to heart (incidentally, it did not originate on the internet).

So you guys think a democratic Iran will automatically become fast friends with America, just like France.

How many Iranians have you known anyway?

59 posted on 06/14/2003 11:09:23 AM PDT by LibWhacker
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To: dogbyte12
I grew up with several emigrees from Iran who fled when the Shah was toppled. Really hard working nice people.

I know an Iranian family who did the same thing. The father, who is dead now, was well-placed in the Iranian oil industry, and had a close working relationship with the government of the Shah. One daughter, who is in her 40's, was very active in the resistance movement. In Iran, the mother was a teacher and now teaches Farsi at the university level. They lived in Tehran and fled in 1980, I think. These are absolutely some of the most gracious, graceful people that I know, and it grieves me to know that Persia is presently under the heel of the Islamic primitives. It would be sweeter than sweet to see the Iranian domino tumble.

60 posted on 06/14/2003 11:10:50 AM PDT by Yardstick
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To: LibWhacker
...Yeah, right. They're our friends. Hey, I've got an idea . . . Let's give 'em some Stinger missiles!
If I'm asleep, doc, you're in a coma. These people are our enemies. Or did you forget the 444 days? ...

To say all Iranians are our enemies is like saying all Americans are liberal nuts. Have you read what the students are calling for? I have read more persuasive pro-American comments from Iranians than anything I have read from us.

To trash an entire country becasue of the lunacy of a few is lunacy itself.

Accorning to recent polling in Iran, the vast majority want friendly relations with the US. If the numbers were reversed I might understand your hostility. But this is a nation held hostage by a few unelected radicals. To an insult to all freedom loving people to compare the students with scorpions. These students are risking their lives for the very freedoms we enjoy.

You should be ashamed of yourself.
61 posted on 06/14/2003 11:10:52 AM PDT by DoctorZIn
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To: DoctorZIn
I've read several reports, and heard news blurbs, mentioning the influence of "Western" Satellite Television on the mood of the mob ... I recall a mention of a "Senior Cleric" complaining of the "Lies and Negativism", and exhorting The Faithful to abjur from such.
62 posted on 06/14/2003 11:13:00 AM PDT by timberlandko (Murphy was an optimist.)
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To: LibWhacker
...These people are our enemies. Or did you forget the 444 days? ...

I understand your anger at the hostage taking. So are all Americans.

But the entire nation did not hold hostage our people in Iran. The same people who took the hostages also stole the government from the people. They were not elected. They took control, left in the vacumn of the fall of the Shah.

The people of Iran did not act swiftly enough to stop it. But after 25 years under this regime they are acting now.

Support them, don't insult them.
63 posted on 06/14/2003 11:17:04 AM PDT by DoctorZIn
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To: DoctorZIn
To trash an entire country becasue of the lunacy of a few is lunacy itself.

This is where we differ. It's not "a few." If 99 or 90% hate you, the country is your enemy.

The only thing worse than Sunnis are Shiites, even so-called "moderate" ones.

64 posted on 06/14/2003 11:18:24 AM PDT by LibWhacker
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To: PeoplesRep_of_LA
"Wait, you said fast referring to the State Dept."

I was trying to be nice when I deleted the part about getting State the heck out of there. Guess I should have left it in. I'm still ticked about State's idea of letting Ba'athist thugs run things in Iraq again...then getting all mad and calling it FASCIST when Defense said "NO". How stupid can they get?? (rhetorical question)

65 posted on 06/14/2003 11:22:05 AM PDT by cake_crumb (UN Resolutions=Very Expensive, Very SCRATCHY Toilet Paper)
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
Thanks, Ernest. That is a very positive take on it! I enjoyed a more recent article there as well.
66 posted on 06/14/2003 11:23:07 AM PDT by jacquej
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To: LibWhacker
...This is where we differ. It's not "a few." If 99 or 90% hate you, the country is your enemy...

I agree about your frustration of socalled moderate Iranians...

But the vast majority of Iranians are ProUS. The radicals are a small minority.

To not support the ProUS efforts in Iran is crazy. It's in our own interest to see a regime change. Our president is calling for such a change.

I don't undestand your reasoning.
67 posted on 06/14/2003 11:24:43 AM PDT by DoctorZIn
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To: LibWhacker
You should take that proverb to heart (incidentally, it did not originate on the internet).

You're kidding? My dusty, old book of Old Internet Proverbs must be wrong, then.

So you guys think a democratic Iran will automatically become fast friends with America, just like France.

Huh, who said that? I'd say that if the reformist topple the Islamists, then a secular, democratic Iran would stop exporting terrorism, modernize its economy, and stabilize the region in a positive way. No one is saying they'd become Great Britian.

How many Iranians have you known anyway?

I've known several, and worked with some, mostly due to their Farsi skills or area knowledge. They've all struck me as reasonable, hardworking, and level headed. Most of them left Iran in the late seventies, and they all seemed hate the Iranian government more than the Chinese hate the Communists.

68 posted on 06/14/2003 11:24:51 AM PDT by Steel Wolf (Stop reading my tag line.)
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To: DoctorZIn
The students who took our people hostage in the Carter years are now the government officials who are supporting terrorism throughout the Middle East. The Iranian students of today oppose the government and these officials. Seems clear we should be supporting the students to me.

My question is how? I have been reading Leeden's pieces on NRO and they emotionally appealing. But don't you think there is some merit to the argument that if we openly encorage or support the students that we are only going to reduce their support among the majority of Iranians? Aren't we going to make them look like the stooges the Iranian governement in already portraying them to be? And everything I am reading and hearing suggests we are not in a position politically or militarily to intervene directly.

I am not asking these as rhetorical questions. I just do not see what we can do except hope that the majority of Iranians become so frustrated at seeing their children treated this way that they do something about it. Is there anything concrete you can see that we could do to help?
69 posted on 06/14/2003 11:25:26 AM PDT by Steelerfan
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To: DoctorZIn
I understand your anger at the hostage taking.

I was at the university during that period. Our universities were lousy with the scum. NOT ONE of them spoke out against it, here or abroad. Indeed, almost without exception they revelled in it. And I had the misfortune of knowing or meeting hundreds of the bastards.

They're all muslims, get it? I swear, I do not want us to lift a finger to help them. Bush is right to ignore them.

70 posted on 06/14/2003 11:27:02 AM PDT by LibWhacker
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To: DoctorZIn
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/927436/posts Here's the thread, with the comments about Iraq/Iran TV, I posted on the Dennis Prager show. The "reporter" was Reverend Ken Joseph Jr. who was in Iraq last week.
71 posted on 06/14/2003 11:32:21 AM PDT by breakem
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To: DoctorZIn
Great reports, please keep us posted!
72 posted on 06/14/2003 11:35:33 AM PDT by Travis McGee (----- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com -----)
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To: LibWhacker
...They're all muslims, get it? I swear, I do not want us to lift a finger to help them. Bush is right to ignore them...

I can't speak to your experience 25 years ago. I share your anger about what happened. But the students are NOT radical islamists. If you read the reports they make statements as "death to the mullahs."

They want a secular democracy. They want an end to Isalmic rule. Do you not want this? How can you not support their efforts to free their nation?
73 posted on 06/14/2003 11:38:56 AM PDT by DoctorZIn
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To: LibWhacker
I was at the university during that period. Our universities were lousy with the scum. NOT ONE of them spoke out against it, here or abroad. Indeed, almost without exception they revelled in it. And I had the misfortune of knowing or meeting hundreds of the bastards.

So, using your logic here, if I visited an American college during the war, and all I saw were anti-war rallies, communist professors, and peacenik students, I could rightly assume that America is 99% pro-appeasement/apologist/liberal. You could meet hundreds of Americans who revelled in socialist dogma walking across campus, that must mean that the entire nation must be Disneyland for Marxists.

74 posted on 06/14/2003 11:40:07 AM PDT by Steel Wolf (Stop reading my tag line.)
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To: DoctorZIn
I don't undestand your reasoning.

Well, apart from my preference to bomb not help them, Iranians cannot direct such hatred at America and expect us to shrug it off and forget about it.

It's is not the case that I want to see democracy fail in Iran. Rather, it's the case that I don't give a sh!t. If they stop supporting terrorism, fine. If not, our military will take care of it. Either way terrorism stops relatively soon and we're not stuck waiting for these deceitful swine to stop it out their sense of good will toward mankind (which I can tell you with 100% certainty does not exist in the vast majority of those mf-ers).

75 posted on 06/14/2003 11:42:15 AM PDT by LibWhacker
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To: LibWhacker
What if...

W came on TV and stated the following...

As a country that has always fought for the freedoms of the oppressed, I warn the dictatorship in IRAN not to lay a finger against peaceful protesters who seek only freedom. Should the dictatorship continue to attack the Iranian people, the US armed forces will have authority to inflict disproportionate damages against the clerical regime.

The US fully supports the Iranain peoples struggle for freedom.

I aint a bettin man, but this backing would unleash hundreds of thousands on the streets of Iran, for they would know that the mullahs would be targeted for their barbarity.

I know there are those who say that the US will never attack iran, but why not send in targeted attacks against the "bonyads" - jihadi foundations that oppress the people. attack the regime as we did in iraq.

God willing W will be inspired to free yet another country.


76 posted on 06/14/2003 11:48:42 AM PDT by jabotinsky
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To: DoctorZIn
"Finally, the Tehranians were asking “why they haven’t heard from President Bush?.”"

Because, if president Bush were to say anything, it would be the dumbest move in the history of revolutions. I don't want to go on a long diatribe but if one studies revolutions the conclusion of glaringly obvious. All of us need to stay out of that revolution unless outside forces start to step in and that is unlikely due to the fact that the rest of the middle east has major problems of its own.
77 posted on 06/14/2003 11:53:46 AM PDT by grapeape (Hope is not a method. - Gen. Hugh Shelton)
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To: DoctorZIn; All
Apparently the blogger I linked to in my previous post isn't happy to be getting all those hits from a "Republican discussion group".
    Neo-Con Hits

    My posts on the student protests in Tehran have attracted a whole bunch of hits from Republican discussion groups like this. I can see they're excited to see unrest in a member of the "Axis of Evil". Too bad they can't read Farsi though. Otherwise they wouldn't need the likes of me to tell them that no matter what the dispute is inside Iran, the vast majority don't like George W. and they certainly don't like the pathetic pawns that America supports and funds, like Reza Pahlavi (son of the late Shah) and the terrorist MKO. I guess it's more pleasurable to be naive though... keep happy. :-)

A note to Alireza Doostdar. If you would bother to read all the posts here, you see the opinions run the gamut. However, I have yet to see much discussion of Iran being a memeber of the "axis of evil". Instead, I see a lot of support for the students and hope for the future of a democratic Iran, wether or not it becomes an ally of the US. I sincerely hope you translate farsi better than you understand english.

And doesn't the fact that people are bothering to read your translations mean that they actually care to get all the information they can?

78 posted on 06/14/2003 11:53:51 AM PDT by TomB
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To: cake_crumb
The State Dept has more problems than we know, since everything I hear sounds like beaurocratic incompetency at best, open beaurocratic resistence and hostility at worst.

Regime change for the unelected tyrants in Washington. Depose Boutcher! Depose that guy that went to Israeli Leftists and said how against Bush the State Dept was in supporting Sharon's idea of "fighting" terrorists.
79 posted on 06/14/2003 11:57:33 AM PDT by PeoplesRep_of_LA (Press Secret; Of 2 million Shiite pilgrims, only 3000 chanted anti Americanisms--source-Islamonline!)
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To: Steel Wolf
Well, you're right, that wouldn't be a valid conclusion. However, I'm not basing my inferences on a brief visit to one college. So the analogy fails. How many instances of dissent during those years amongst Iranians abroad can you come up with? It's been a long time, but I can't think of one.
80 posted on 06/14/2003 11:59:20 AM PDT by LibWhacker
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To: TomB
You might find this interesting.
It is a report of what various Iranian newspapers are saying about the unrest.

Iranian press takes sides over unrest

BBC Montoring Services
June 14, 2003

US-based TV channels like Azadi have been accused of incitement
Editorial writers in Tehran's newspapers on Saturday adopted sharply different stances on the protests in the capital over the past four nights.
Conservative papers were firm in their belief that the unrest was US-inspired and would be resisted.
By contrast, the reformist press saw the events as a major test for the Iranian leadership and urged restraint.


Jomhuri-ye Eslami - hardline, pro-Khamene'i
It would be naive if anyone were to imagine that the recent unrest in Tehran is an accidental phenomenon and that there is no link between the unrest and America's threats against the Islamic Republic of Iran in recent days and weeks... If the people are fully informed about the course of events and the plots, they will safeguard their revolution and their system with all their might, and they will bury America's pawns and agents in a single day.


Kayhan - hardline
Stirring up unrest in Iran by elements inside the country and echoing their voices does not cost White House strategists anything. But final warnings have to be issued to those who are wandering stupidly and undecided in the midst of this great trial of strength... No nation or state will forgive traitors.


Iran Daily - moderate
[Commentary by Ali Taheri] It seems as if the ultimate goal of the current pressure tactics against Iran is to topple the ruling establishment... Three US considerations are on the table with respect to Iran: fully-fledged military attack, limited military engagement and weakening the system from within. It seems that for now the last option is weighing heavier.


Aftab-e Yazd - reformist
While the necessary care must be taken, sensitivities must be rationalised so that a group of people cannot suggest that any protest or gathering must necessarily be based on foreign plans and be aimed at overthrowing the system, because this is, on the one hand, an insult to everyone who has a right to protest against government decisions ... and, on the other, exaggerates the enemy's power and suggests that others have undue influence on our country's internal affairs.


Hambastegi - reformist
This author's advice is that lessons should be learned from the past and efforts should be made to bear the cost of the process of finding solutions to crises, with our eyes focused inside the country not on the expectation of foreign intervention, because Iran belongs to Iranians.


Tose'eh - reformist
Paying attention to Iran's determining role in the region and the need to preserve this role demands that the country's officials and the political groups involved in the power structure concern themselves - before anything else - with safeguarding stability inside the country and, by adopting a wise approach, solve problems in a way that prevents tension and conflict in society.


Etemaad - reformist
In previous years, the people still had hope in the reformists within the state, but, today, far from having hope in them, their main protests are directed at the reformists. This move has a message for the leadership as a whole and for [President] Khatami in particular. The message is too clear to need explaining and Khatami and his allies are too intelligent not to have received it... At the same time, it is a major test for the leadership as a whole so that they can display the extent of their tolerance.


Yas-e Now - reformist
None of us has the slightest affinity with any protests that are provoked by the foreign-based opposition with the aid of satellite TVs... but it is as clear as day to us that, by using vindictive beatings and uncontrolled actions undertaken by irresponsible or even responsible forces, the state will teach violence and hooliganism to the protesters... We hope that officials are aware of their sensitive responsibility and act with more wisdom.


Source: Info net

http://www.iran-daneshjoo.org/cgi-bin/smccdinews/viewnews.cgi?category=5&id=1055608134
81 posted on 06/14/2003 12:00:12 PM PDT by DoctorZIn
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To: TomB
I wouldn't worry too much about this Alireza Doostdar, he has the talking points on "neo" cons, and the MKO, which last I heard the GOP was the one calling them terrorists that we shouldn't ever support.

This is a Leftist, it doesn't matter what country they come from, they all have the same agenda and end up reading from the same script.

If those people want "freedom" they like the United States.
82 posted on 06/14/2003 12:01:13 PM PDT by PeoplesRep_of_LA (Press Secret; Of 2 million Shiite pilgrims, only 3000 chanted anti Americanisms--source-Islamonline!)
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To: DoctorZIn
Excellent info. Thanks.

So what do you make of Doostdar's whining (other than he's a student a Harvard)?

83 posted on 06/14/2003 12:02:14 PM PDT by TomB
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To: LibWhacker
Well, apart from my preference to bomb not help them, Iranians cannot direct such hatred at America and expect us to shrug it off and forget about it

If this is the depth of your position, then its safe to say you don't have a lot to contribute to this discussion. You're so blinded by hate of a past wrong that you can't see an opportunity for payback when it presents itself.

The people you're angry with are being threatened by people who won't be a danger to us if they succeed. We stand to lose nothing by at least morally encouraging the opposition to defeat the mullahs.

I realize that's not so cathartic as 'don't help them, bomb them', but you can at least see that its in our interests.

84 posted on 06/14/2003 12:02:36 PM PDT by Steel Wolf (Stop reading my tag line.)
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To: DoctorZIn; All
FOX IS DOING A STORY ON IT RIGHT NOW - 12:04 pm PST
85 posted on 06/14/2003 12:07:51 PM PDT by CyberAnt ( America - You Are The Greatest!!)
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To: CyberAnt; All
PRESIDENT ISSUES A STATEMENT RE IRAN STUDENT PROTESTS - VERY HOT - VERY SUPPORTIVE STATEMENT!!
86 posted on 06/14/2003 12:10:25 PM PDT by CyberAnt ( America - You Are The Greatest!!)
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To: CyberAnt
Can you provide a link to the statemnent?
87 posted on 06/14/2003 12:17:07 PM PDT by DoctorZIn
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To: jabotinsky
"attack the regime as we did in iraq."

You make it sound so simple. It isn't.

88 posted on 06/14/2003 12:27:59 PM PDT by cake_crumb (UN Resolutions=Very Expensive, Very SCRATCHY Toilet Paper)
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To: TomB
"Otherwise they wouldn't need the likes of me to tell them that no matter what the dispute is inside Iran, the vast majority don't like George W. and they certainly don't like the pathetic pawns that America supports and funds, like Reza Pahlavi"

The US government's not supporting him. Or funding him.

Anyhow, thank that blogger for me if you can....I'm really tired of repeating myself as to all the points about why we can't go into Iran. He makes the case. Or rather....he proves it.

89 posted on 06/14/2003 12:35:48 PM PDT by cake_crumb (UN Resolutions=Very Expensive, Very SCRATCHY Toilet Paper)
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To: DoctorZIn
I did find a short statement quoted by Reuters...

U.S. Alarmed at Treatment of Iranian Protestors
Sat June 14, 2003 03:14 PM ET
KENNEBUNKPORT, Maine (Reuters) - The United States on Saturday denounced Islamic hard-liners who attacked pro-democracy demonstrators in Iran and called on the government to release those who have been jailed.
"We are alarmed at reports of arrests and provocative actions taken against students by regime forces and call upon the regime to protect the human rights of the students and to release those who have been arrested," the White House said in a statement released in Kennebunkport where President Bush is spending a long weekend.

http://reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=politicsNews&storyID=2929626
90 posted on 06/14/2003 12:38:54 PM PDT by DoctorZIn
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To: DoctorZIn
I just found this on the whitehouse.gov website:

June 14, 2003

STATEMENT BY THE PRESS SECRETARY

RECENT DEMONSTRATIONS IN IRAN

The United States views with great concern the use of violence against Iranian students peacefully expressing their political views. We are alarmed at reports of arrests and provocative actions taken against students by regime forces, and call upon the regime to protect the human rights of the students and to release those who have been arrested.

Iranians, like all people, have a right to determine their own destiny, and the United States supports their aspirations to live in freedom. It is our hope that the voice of the Iranian people and their aspirations for democracy and the rule of law will be heard.

###

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/06/20030614-1.html
91 posted on 06/14/2003 12:43:24 PM PDT by DoctorZIn
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To: DoctorZIn
If there was ever any doubt that the Hizbulla is an official arm of the Iranian Government, this situation just shot it down.
92 posted on 06/14/2003 12:45:21 PM PDT by American in Israel (Right beats wrong)
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To: American in Israel
"If there was ever any doubt that the Hizbulla is an official arm of the Iranian Government, this situation just shot it down"

Nah. The tyrant lovers will treat such circumstantial evidence the way they treat the 'smoking gun' in Iraq.

93 posted on 06/14/2003 12:51:41 PM PDT by cake_crumb (UN Resolutions=Very Expensive, Very SCRATCHY Toilet Paper)
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To: Steel Wolf
Are you lost? I'm not just talking about the past.

When did you first hear about this "uprising" in Iran? Be honest. I heard about it when a bunch of drunken Iranian soccer fans were arrested in Teheran. So essentially the hooligans are upset because they can't party! No doubt there are some who really want to be free and I'm sure they were whispering about it long before the soccer incident, but you've got to know they don't have the numbers to make it happen.

A few weeks after the soccer arrests we started to hear all the fiery rhetoric coming from Iran's universities about freedom and democracy. Freedom this, democracy that.

It ain't sincere, my friend. Freedom and democracy are anathema to a muslim, moderate or no. Believing that a muslim wants people to be free is like believing my dog wants grapefruit for dinner.

This generation is for us because they want to party. The next generation isn't because we're the Great Satan. Who cares? They're all muslims and once in power neither faction will lift a finger to put an end to terrorism. One will actively support it while the other will turn a blind eye to it, just as all those hundreds of thousands of freedom-loving Iranians abroad during the hostage crisis went mute. You're dreaming if you think otherwise.

Now a Shah, ruling with an iron fist . . . That's what the Iranians deserve.

94 posted on 06/14/2003 12:52:14 PM PDT by LibWhacker
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To: jabotinsky
Oops, sorry, almost forgot to answer you . . . I do think a scenario like yours is likely to play out eventually; i.e., it's going to take an intervention by U.S. military forces to make a change. But I see no reason to believe a secular democracy could ever work in Iran longterm. I hope I'm wrong (everyone here seems to think so -- so that's a good sign, lol!), but the problem, as always, is islam: There AIN'T NO WAY islam is going to allow a secular democracy to exist in its midst.
95 posted on 06/14/2003 1:07:59 PM PDT by LibWhacker
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To: DoctorZIn
If the people are fully informed about the course of events and the plots, they will safeguard their revolution and their system with all their might, and they will bury America's pawns and agents in a single day.

Is that you, Baghdad Bob?


96 posted on 06/14/2003 1:11:05 PM PDT by don-o
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To: don-o
I knew Baghdad Bob couldn't hide forever....
:)
97 posted on 06/14/2003 1:14:21 PM PDT by DoctorZIn
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To: LibWhacker
It ain't sincere, my friend. Freedom and democracy are anathema to a muslim, moderate or no. Believing that a muslim wants people to be free is like believing my dog wants grapefruit for dinner.

So what's your opposition to secular, reformist student protesters, then? They're not going to abandon Islam overnight, but reducing it from the state power to a private faith is a huge step. If they want to party, fuel that desire. Lapsed muslims are infinitely preferable to fundamentalists.

Once they get their hands on McDonalds, cable modems, and miniskirts, they won't go back. If they want to drink alcohol and watch porn, good for them. Their society is tired of Sharia, and longs to be western and free.

'Being Muslim' is a self afflicted social disorder they're pretty well tired of at the grassroots level, hence the demonstrations. Freedom and strict Islam may be incompatible, but human nature favors freedom, and will invariably win if the choice presents itself.

98 posted on 06/14/2003 1:54:40 PM PDT by Steel Wolf (Stop reading my tag line.)
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To: cake_crumb
here is why it is simpler...

unlike iraq, iran is more homogeneous and better educated overall. and no we dont intend to send an army in. what I was proposing is for the US military to bloody the noses of the jihadis. here is a perfect opportunity to put tomohawks (sp?) to use, laser guided missiles (amen), etc etc. the grassroots for a change from theoCRAPic rule to civilized democracy in iran is infinitely more developed than in iraq.

nothing is easy in the ME, it is a treacherous place.

but at the very least, we owe the region and ourselves this duty to reverse a wrong that we (correction: CARTAH - history's greatest monster) helped bring about.

knock off the jihadis in iran, and I have a feeling the butchers in saudi a, gaza and syria will be even more attentive to reason.
99 posted on 06/14/2003 2:17:29 PM PDT by jabotinsky
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To: LibWhacker
"But I see no reason to believe a secular democracy could ever work in Iran longterm."

I don't think you're wrong. Is a secular democracy is achieved, the question will - and should - be : how long until the next revolution brings a new Ayatollah? That's another part of the reason we can't use military intervention in Iran. Along with Carter's destruction of the Shah, their hatred of us during their revolution, US alliance with Iraq in the hopes Iraq would defeat Iran (revenge by proxy in the face of near universal Iraqi and Iranian hatred for us). Combined with Iranian hatred for us, which continues to this day.

Iraqis don't love us either. They may be happy to be free, they welcome us, but they do not love us. They don't even trust us. We're a tool for them to get what they want, nothing more. In general this is the way the entire Arab world sees us. It's a form of arrogance and disdain on the order of the way Old Europe feels about us...and the UN. Now the Iraqis have got what they wanted, and they want us out...especially the Iranian backed tools of the mad mullahs so recently returned from Iranian 'exile' to Iraq.

The assurances coming out of Defense were little more than hype I hope.

I know for a fact the US plans no military aid for student dissidents in Iran unless something happens...hopefully nothing short of massacre, which the UN will be forced to take notice of.

Please no one get me wrong : I don't WANT innocent Iranian kids massacred by their nutzo government...but US interests should be our number one interests. Iran got itself into this, and for now it's in US interests for Iran to get itself out.

We wish them luck, we support their cause, but we're not going in. It would be stupid right now, it won't stop the terrorism, it would weaken our resolve and weaken us militarily. We need to concentrate on securing Iraq, while supporting the insurgants as much as we can.

100 posted on 06/14/2003 2:25:06 PM PDT by cake_crumb (UN Resolutions=Very Expensive, Very SCRATCHY Toilet Paper)
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