Yes, They Were Guilty. But of What Exactly? [NYT FINALLY admits Rosenbergs were guilty!]

NY Times ^ | June 15, 2003 | SAM ROBERTS

[MEG33]

Elect a scientist President,then.

[Zack Nguyen]

I have read that Robert Oppenheimer, one of the top scientists at the Manhattan Project, gave away lots of info to the Soviets. It is a pity that we couldn't catch and try him.

[liberallarry]

The opinions of smart people are no better than those of lesser intellect when it come to forecasting the consequenses of political or military action.

Wrong. They are better. Much, much better. Just not good enough to forecast 20, or 10, or even 5 years into the future with high probability in many situations.

You are obsessed with the notion that things are predictible

This is completely off the wall, not even remotely related to anything I've posted, and said only because you don't like Szilard's views and can't find any other way to criticize them.

Keep in mind that your criticism's apply equally to the decisions which were actually made, and to those who made them. In fact, we are all called upon to make these kinds of decisions all the time - in our daily as well as national lives; Shall I invest for the long term? Should I take on a big mortgage? Shall I buy health insurance? Should I save for the kids' education? etc., etc., etc.

[MEG33]

There's interesting info about this somewhere .Why he wasn't exposed was discussed although I never heard he passed secrets..just that he was very aligned with communists and would not have had access to top secret clearance had this been known at the time.

[MEG33]

Gee ,Larry,are you a scientist?....;)

[Zack Nguyen]

You can't seriously believe intellectuals are dumber than the general public.

I do. Much of the general public has better sense, ethically and philosophically, than "intellectuals." They are just not as well read.

[I_Love_My_Husband]

That was discussed earlier in the thread. Right now I can't link you but if you read the entire thread it's there.

I believe basically they didn't for a couple of reasons.

#1 - Truman didn't want to.

#2 - Ike disliked McCarthy. McCarthy wanted to, and even put Opp. in front of the committee. Nothing happened except he was relieved of his duties (Opp).

So the Presidents did not support McC in going after Opp.

[Zack Nguyen]

Good points. The more I learn about Truman and his reaction to certain Communist infiltration in his administration, the less I respect him.

[liberallarry]

They did not have the right to make that decision for our country

I wonder if I haven't misunderstood you on this one?

If thought you were arguing against improper influence of men like Szilard. You may have thought that I was justifying spying.

To be clear.

I think Szilard, and other scientists, exercised their influence to the extent they could. Quite properly. Lots of groups have influence far beyond their numbers. That's how the system really works.

In no way did I mean to justify the actions of spies or those who illegaly violated the secrecy laws. My arguments were meant to show that it was extremely unlikely that first-rate scientists would have sympathized with the Russians enough to betray America. They had other motivations. In those few cases where that motivation led them to treason I have no problem with punishment. They deserved it.

[MEG33]

That is a relief!

[liberallarry]

Much of the general public has better sense, ethically and philosophically, than "intellectuals."

Another old saw...and don't you mean left-wing intellectuals? Or do you include people like Milton Friedman, Frederick Hayak, Bill Buckley, many of the Founding Fathers, Horowitz, Limbaugh, etc. amoung the ethically and philosophically defective?

[js1138]

OK, cutting to the chase, the reason I think poorly of intellectuals attempting to forecast the future is that other, opposing intellectuals will attempt to anticipate your moves, resulting in a dangerous chess game. the best way to minimise danger is to stake out a set of principles worth fighting and dying for, and to make it clear that you will destroy anyone who tries to take away your way of life. Most of the bad decisions made by America are the result of game playing and not sticking to principles.

[liberallarry]

Gee ,Larry,are you a scientist?....;)

I had first rate scientific training as an undergrad - probably as good as it gets. But I was a high-school basketball star in the NBA - so no, I am not a scientist.

[liberallarry]

OK, cutting to the chase, the reason I think poorly of intellectuals attempting to forecast the future is that other, opposing intellectuals will attempt to anticipate your moves, resulting in a dangerous chess game

That's it. That's the game and how it's played. Nothing wrong with your strategy - and that's what it is: a strategy - but it doesn't stop the game. It continues. It's the only one in town.

[js1138]

But the outcomes of games are unpredictable. I would love to hear about a think tank whose 20 and 50 year forecasts are consistently correct. You are saying foxes are smarter and therefore better than hedgehogs. I say capitalism, with all its chaos and waste is a hedgehog, and it is both better and more durable that anything that could be planned by intellectuals. It isn't so much that capitalists are dumb or have lower IQs than intellectuals, it's that they do not attempt to plan for all of society. Intellectuals have contempt for them because they do not "see the big picture." I maintain that no one sees the big picture.

[Zack Nguyen]

Yes, I mean left wing intellectuals. I should have been more clear. Most left-wing "intellectuals" are humanists, atheists and socialist.

[DPB101]

Dr. Szilard --Well, I started to worry about the use of the bomb in the spring of '45.

ROFLMAO!!!

I bet Dr. Szilard could have been more specific. This world-class scientist who knew for years what an atomic bomb could do probably had his first misgivings about using it by sometime in April of 1945. No doubt after 11:01 p.m. on May 8, 1945 his concerns intensified greatly.

Poor General Groves, he had serious problems keeping these patriots working on the bomb focused after May 8th 1945.

[MEG33]

Patriots to which country?Why suddenly in the spring of '45?Why after Victory in Europe? The Pacific war was very costly,too?Hmmm

[Doctor Stochastic]

And the reason that the ordinary people have trouble forecasting the future is that other, opposing ordinary people will try to thwart them. It's called politics.

[liberallarry]

I don't disagree with much of this. But all governments, all corporations, all individuals with any sense have think tanks and attempt long-range planning. They have to. We're just more realistic about such exercises than the Communists, or - putting it another way - we're better planners.