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A darker side of pot growing Diesel, oil contamination a slippery, but serious problem
times-standard.com/ ^

Posted on 06/17/2003 3:30:04 AM PDT by chance33_98

A darker side of pot growing Diesel, oil contamination a slippery, but serious problem

By John Driscoll The Times-Standard

The cost of a pound of marijuana on the street may not reflect the steep cost to the land where it was grown and to people living nearby.

With the ongoing trend of moving big marijuana grows indoors, drug enforcement agents are frequently uncovering serious environmental contamination problems.

Mostly, the pollution is from diesel generators used to power energy-hogging sodium lights and ventilation equipment needed to grow high potency marijuana indoors. A below-standard diesel storage tank, and improper disposal of motor oil, can lead to soil and groundwater pollution that can cost thousands of dollars to clean up -- and in some circumstances is impossible to remedy at all.

The contamination has become more and more a part of criminal cases stemming from pot raids. Often, it's the owner of the property -- perhaps leasing it, even unknowingly, to pot growers -- who ends up responsible.

Just how widespread or serious the problem is depends on who you ask. Police, prosecutors and game wardens insist it is huge. Others claim that isn't the case; they say that most growers are responsible, and many don't even use the diesel generators that tend to be at the center of the problem.

It's difficult to get a handle on the scope of the issue, and whether people irresponsibly using generators for otherwise legal purposes may be just as big a problem.

Everywhere we go

"It's everywhere we go," said Ron Prose with the Bureau of Narcotics Enforcement, a division of the California Department of Justice. "I'm not talking about the guys with four plants in the closet. I'm talking about the guys who are like millionaires."

In 2001, a pilot program was launched with sheriffs' departments in California and the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration to work on indoor grows. Prose said that drug enforcement agents frequently found grows in Southern Humboldt County and Mendocino County that used diesel generators, sometimes running them off underground tanks. The tanks were often leaking or connected with poorly coupled hoses to the generators. The growers dumped oil or haphazardly tossed oil containers on the ground, Prose said.

Soon, county prosecutors and the Department of Toxic Substances Control began to take notice. Today, there are several cases pending in Humboldt County Superior Court.

The problem is, the growers themselves often aren't the owners of the property.

"Many times we deal with the owners, given that the perpetrators aren't available," said Luis Rivera of the North Coast Regional Water Quality Control Board.

Depending on the circumstances, when large numbers of buildings are erected and significant changes are made to the property, that may seem fair. But occasionally, an absentee landlord really doesn't know what's happening on his property.

"If you or I changed our oil and dumped it in the back yard, we'd be in a lot of trouble," said Sgt. Wayne Hanson, who leads the Drug Enforcement Unit for the Humboldt County Sheriff's Department.

Hanson said it is often tough to prove who the suspects are. In one case, contamination from a grow was shuffled off to an unsuspecting property buyer, who is now trying to recoup cleanup costs from the original owner, Hanson said.

Rivera admitted that it's not possible to put a score on the problem, since a survey of the issue isn't readily available. But he said the board staff only deals with the worst problems, and even a minor spill can prove troublesome locally.

"The impact is immediate and very perceptible to the people around it," Rivera said.

Oil and diesel can find its way into groundwater and into drinking water, and into creeks when it rains.

The county Environmental Health Department responds to spills that may threaten drinking water supply. Department Director Brian Cox said that environmental health responded to eight separate spills related to marijuana grows in 2001. Since then, he believes the number has come down.

Where the problem seems most acute, in Southern Humboldt, Cox said he believes education has gone a long way.

"I think the residents in Southern Humboldt care and they don't want to see degradation of their environment," Cox said.

Just bad apples

That's what Richard Jay Moller thinks, too. A well-connected Southern Humboldt criminal defense attorney, Moller believes poorly managed fuel and oil is the exception rather than the rule.

While he agreed that some contamination takes place, he said that many growers seem to have made the switch to cleaner propane generators. (Some sources say it's only because they are quieter.) It's the greedier big-time indoor growers who use diesel, he said.

"The unfortunate thing about the crackdown on outdoor growing is that it has led people indoors," Moller said.

While that argument roils law enforcement agents, it is true that many outdoor growers have gone inside, and have become increasingly sophisticated to avoid detection. Prose remembered an operation staged inside a $250,000 home with high-end lighting and ventilation systems. No one lived there, and in fact, the grow was nearly self-sufficient. A cell phone would call the caretaker if anything was amiss with the operation.

Still, Prose said, the grower's waste disposal was primitive. He merely opened a valve on the generator to let the oil spill out the window through a tube.

Moller argued that there are no doubt some bad apples. But he said that out of all the people using equipment -- for any reason -- that requires diesel and motor oil, there are a few who are not responsible.

Following their noses

Several years ago, Fish and Game Warden Larry Bruckenstein and a co-worker stumbled across a stream that smelled of diesel. The two followed their noses up the stream and the smell got stronger. At the source of the smell, they found an indoor grow and diesel leaking right into the creek.

Bruckenstein is particularly frustrated with the growers, because he says they have the money to do things right. Pot can fetch more than $3,000 per pound. A May bust in Garberville turned up what might have been $8.75 million worth, had the plants reached maturity.

The raid by the DEA, the Bureau of Narcotics Enforcement and the Humboldt County Drug Task Force on three parcels found 20 buildings and 10,000 plants. The bust also netted several rifles and two all-terrain vehicles.

The equipment inside the structures was powered by two diesel generators, one 125-kilowatt and the other an 85-kilowatt generator. In this case, leaking fuel and oil caused minimal damage, according to environmental health officials.

All of the 27,000 pot plants destroyed by the task force since January were found in indoor grows. It's likely that other busts will be made once the outdoor growing season is in full swing, but indoor grows are becoming a greater percentage of the total figure. Part of that is because operators can grow three crops per year.

The biggest indoor grow bust in California history took place in 1998 on Lord-Ellis Summit off State Highway 299. About 12,000 plants were found in a house used exclusively for growing. Its five operators were reportedly making $50,000 per month.

But instead of using a small portion of that income to upgrade fuel storage, Bruckenstein said, "They cut corners at every possible chance."

If petroleum products enter state waters, the state Department of Fish and Game can prosecute both criminally and civilly. And while the regional water board can issue a cleanup and abatement order and levy stiff fines, often the mess just can't be cleaned up.

Not just growers

One manager of a Humboldt County hydroponics store, who asked not to be named, isn't convinced the problem is that severe.

He estimated that perhaps 95 percent of his customers who buy sodium and halogen lights are buying them for use on the Pacific Gas and Electric Co. grid. He knows because the 110-volt lights he sells the most of aren't compatible with diesel generators. Also, the manager said few people come in to buy a large number of lights.

He agreed that diesel pollution is most likely a problem, but added that he suspects gas stations pose an equal or greater risk. Further, he pointed at timber companies' widespread use of diesel as an additive to herbicides, which are legally sprayed over thousands of acres of timber cuts each year. That spraying is done under specific guidelines, but has caused concern in some communities.

The source said he can't imagine pot grows posing the same problem.

"It would be hard to believe that it's as big of a problem as they would want it to seem," he said. "But is the problem out there? Yeah."

Hands full

Paul Hagen, Humboldt County deputy district attorney and environmental circuit prosecutor, said the problem, which he suspects is severe, really requires more investigative resources.

"It's my strong feeling, from anecdotes over time, that the problem is chronic, systemic and widespread," Hagen said. "If the true extent of contamination from generators were known, the public would be appalled."

On that end, the county's handful of drug cops already have a huge work load, and the environmental investigations that stem from their first duty are just a byproduct.

Hagen said it is difficult to get perpetrators to clean up under criminal statutes. He said the District Attorney's Office can prosecute for the disposal of toxic substances, but can't order a cleanup of the mess. That's up to a judge. And the district attorney has no authority under the California Superfund Law -- that's the domain of the Department of Toxic Substances Control.

But cleanup demands can be written into probation terms, as Deputy District Attorney Worth Dikeman is doing in one case not yet resolved. In the terms are demands that the perpetrator contact the Department of Toxic Substances Control, environmental health and the regional water board to investigate and fix the contamination. The agencies must also be reimbursed for their costs.

As Hagen pointed out, one of the main problems in making irresponsible growers responsible is a lack of resources. At a time when the state budget is on life support and the county is making heavy cuts and layoffs, it's difficult to see how effective -- on a large scale -- prosecution of environmental crimes related to indoor grows may be.

If, as environmental health's Cox suggests, education has gone a long way, perhaps the problem will begin to fade, especially if prosecutors are nudging them on, securing stiff penalties in the cases they can get their hands on.


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; US: California
KEYWORDS: ganja; idiotdruggies; idiotdrugwarriors; liberalservatives; liberaltarians; madness; marijuana; pot; reefer; reefermadness; wod; wodlist
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1 posted on 06/17/2003 3:30:04 AM PDT by chance33_98
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To: chance33_98
bump for later
2 posted on 06/17/2003 3:34:12 AM PDT by Behind Liberal Lines
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To: chance33_98
Another arguement for legalization???
3 posted on 06/17/2003 3:37:18 AM PDT by EddieB (Be Diligent...)
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To: EddieB
No, I think they just made the worst enemy of all - the enviro-weenies.
4 posted on 06/17/2003 3:54:18 AM PDT by chance33_98 (www.hannahmore.com -- Shepherd Of Salisbury Plain is online, more to come! (my website))
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To: chance33_98
""If you or I changed our oil and dumped it in the back yard, we'd be in a lot of trouble," said Sgt. Wayne Hanson, who leads the Drug Enforcement Unit for the Humboldt County Sheriff's Department"

I asked my cousins’ husband who’s a MIT doctoral degreed greenie and a millionaire from consulting at trials for 20 years this question. If I own a big V-8 Suburban, and I drive out to my oil wells, and drain the oil from the engine, am I polluting? He said don’t ask him questions like that.

5 posted on 06/17/2003 3:55:41 AM PDT by Leisler
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To: chance33_98; EddieB
When liberal world's collide...
6 posted on 06/17/2003 4:45:28 AM PDT by Behind Liberal Lines
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To: chance33_98
Small amounts of oil and diesel will break down with bacteria. Deisel will also evaporate.
7 posted on 06/17/2003 4:49:56 AM PDT by palmer (Plagiarism is series)
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To: palmer
That's what they make lighters for. =)
8 posted on 06/17/2003 4:51:47 AM PDT by chance33_98 (www.hannahmore.com -- Shepherd Of Salisbury Plain is online, more to come! (my website))
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To: chance33_98
Mostly, the pollution is from diesel generators used to power energy-hogging sodium lights

It's time that these reporters stop trying to sound so knowledgeable without doing actual research. Sodium lights (of which there are two kinds, low pressure and high pressure, but low pressure is failrly rare these days) cannot be used to grow plants. They are commonly used as streetlights and in other applications where color rendition is not critical since the light they transmit is fairly monochromatic. In english, that's why streetlights are yellow. Also, sodium is about the most efficient (lumens per watt) lamp generally available.

Actually the growers use mainly metal halide lamps which are related to sodium only by the fact that they are discharge type lamps (fluorescent is also a discharge lamp). Anyway, my point is, if reporters can't get their facts striaght in the opening few paragraphs, the rest of their story is suspect.

I'll get off my soap box now, thank you for your attention.....

9 posted on 06/17/2003 6:09:45 AM PDT by par4
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To: EddieB; chance33_98; *Wod_list; jmc813
Another arguement for legalization???

Absolutely. If pot-growing were legal its potential pollutants could be effectively regulated.

10 posted on 06/17/2003 6:29:36 AM PDT by MrLeRoy (The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. - Jefferson)
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To: MrLeRoy
If pot-growing were legal its potential pollutants could be effectively regulated.

Heck, why would they obey the law anymore then than they do now?

11 posted on 06/17/2003 6:32:35 AM PDT by chance33_98 (www.hannahmore.com -- Shepherd Of Salisbury Plain is online, more to come! (my website))
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To: par4
HPS lamps are commonly used for the flowering stages of cultivation. Or so I've heard.
12 posted on 06/17/2003 6:37:11 AM PDT by Wolfie
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To: MrLeRoy
I find it hard to believe that people engaged in an illegal activity that could get them decades of jail time, and result in the loss of their property, would have the gall to ignore environmental regulations to boot. Truly shameful.
13 posted on 06/17/2003 6:38:45 AM PDT by Wolfie
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To: chance33_98
If pot-growing were legal its potential pollutants could be effectively regulated.

Heck, why would they obey the law anymore then than they do now?

First, it probably wouldn't be the same people. Second, the cost-benefit situation would be changed---why risk legal profits to avoid the relatively small costs of legally handling pollutants?

14 posted on 06/17/2003 6:38:49 AM PDT by MrLeRoy (The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. - Jefferson)
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To: Wolfie
I find it hard to believe that people engaged in an illegal activity that could get them decades of jail time, and result in the loss of their property, would have the gall to ignore environmental regulations to boot. Truly shameful.

When marijuana growing is outlawed, only outlaws will grow marijuana.

15 posted on 06/17/2003 6:40:14 AM PDT by MrLeRoy (The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. - Jefferson)
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To: Leisler
If I own a big V-8 Suburban, and I drive out to my oil wells, and drain the oil from the engine, am I polluting?

Best case is that you run the risk of serious engine damage on the way back and become a Darwin Award winner. :-)

16 posted on 06/17/2003 6:42:29 AM PDT by Mind-numbed Robot (Not all things that need to be done need to be done by the government.)
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To: par4
Ed Rosenthal's Grow Tips

Indoor Lighting for Bigger Buds
Taking a close look at lighting requirements before you start your crop can mean less disappointment at harvest.



The garden uses seven skylights and two 400-watt lamps to light the two garden sections. Plants are kept in small cups while the roots are bathed in circulated warm water.

After a successful crop in late August, Skylight Grower harvested a much smaller crop of Kali Mist (Cerebral Seeds), Skunk x Big Bud, Northern Lights x (Sensi) and Big Skunk x Northern Lights (Sensi), which matured in mid-November than expected. (Sensi and Cerebral Seeds are seed companies in Amsterdam.)

This crop yielded smaller, thinner buds in all varieties. The Northern Lights (NL) hybrids grew deformed male flowers on the colas, and there were spurts of new growth on the maturing flowers. The Skunk x Big Bud and Kali Mist matured the best, and exhibited heavy gland growth. The NL hybrids did not mature quite so definitively.

Skylight Grower opened the shutters at 6 AM. Shortly after, two 400-watt metal-halide lamps, one on each section of the garden, were turned on for three hours. They were switched on at 1:30 PM for another three hours.

What was the cause of the anemic growth, stretching and deformities on these buds? There are probably three reasons, which potentiated each other. First, there was a lack of light. During late fall, there is a precipitous drop in the intensity of light at 40 degrees latitude. In addition, cloud cover lowered the amount of light coming through the skylights. Even the supplemental light from the 400-watt lamps did not provide enough energy to promote rapid growth.
The second reason the buds were small had to do with the total number of hours per day the plants received strong light. The shutters were opened at 6 AM and closed late at night. During the last month before harvest, there was only about seven hours of strong light. Growth slowed and maturity was hastened, resulting in smaller buds at maturity.

Thirdly, light pollution from the skylights occurred in the evening before the shutters were covered. Incidental light from the street lights and other urban illumination is enough to affect the flowering response of the plants.

Adding more light would have increased growth in a linear relationship to the radiant energy the plants would have received. If the 400-watt MH lamps had been used 12 hours a day, yields would have been larger. Under this light regimen, the lights would have been on during the daylight hours, from the shutter opening at 6 AM to 6 PM

Each of the two garden sections measures a little more than 6 x 8 feet, about 50 square feet in total. By supplementing the natural light with a mere 8 watts per square foot using the MH lamps, the garden's yield would have been much larger.

Adding more light would have resulted in larger yields. The 400-watt lamps could have been replaced with 1,000-watt lamps. These lamps would have an input of about 20 watts per square foot of garden space. Many gardens use light of this intensity as their sole source. Using lamps to supplement sunlight can increase growth tremendously.

The best growth rate would be maintained using the 1,000-watt lamps for the entire day. To conserve electricity, the lights can be turned on and off several times during the day. Under one light regimen, the lights are turned off for five hours during the middle of the day. They go on at 6 AM, off at 10 AM, on at 3 PM and off at 6 PM. This would not produce the fastest growth and highest yield , but the buds would be thick and tight.

Other configurations are possible, too. For instance, each section could use two 400-watt lamps. One could be on for the full 12 hours and the other for only five hours a day.

Place extra emphasis on your lighting needs. Your plants won't get stressed and neither will you.

17 posted on 06/17/2003 6:43:58 AM PDT by cinFLA
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To: Wolfie; par4
"HPS lamps are commonly used for the flowering stages of cultivation. Or so I've heard."

Yeah, uhhhh...that's what I "heard" also.

18 posted on 06/17/2003 6:45:06 AM PDT by Vigilantcitizen
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To: MrLeRoy
why risk legal profits to avoid the relatively small costs of legally handling pollutants?

Why risk massive jail time, losing everything you own, and so forth for some crack when there are plenty of legal ways to get wasted?

19 posted on 06/17/2003 6:46:51 AM PDT by chance33_98 (www.hannahmore.com -- Shepherd Of Salisbury Plain is online, more to come! (my website))
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To: chance33_98
why risk legal profits to avoid the relatively small costs of legally handling pollutants?

Why risk massive jail time, losing everything you own, and so forth for some crack

Who risks that---the dealer? He's not looking to get wasted but to make big profits.

when there are plenty of legal ways to get wasted?

"Plenty"? There's alcohol, if you're looking for a depressant and don't mind vomiting and hangovers. What are some other of these "plenty of ways"?

20 posted on 06/17/2003 6:53:23 AM PDT by MrLeRoy (The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. - Jefferson)
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To: MrLeRoy; chance33_98
"why risk legal profits to avoid the relatively small costs of legally handling pollutants?"

Because if MJ were legal, it would be grown outside in the dirt. No need for generators to power underground growrooms.

21 posted on 06/17/2003 6:58:51 AM PDT by Vigilantcitizen
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To: chance33_98; Illbay
You're brave. These threads bring out the dumb pro-druggies here at FReep.

However, in our favor, not a-one of them is a Republican. They're all Liberaltarians so the rest of us just ignore them.

I'm sure 10 of them will jump in and call me every name in the book now. But Liberaltarians get .5% of the vote, and JR seems to be quite sick of them these days (see the note where he wants to call FReep a Republican Discussion Group).
22 posted on 06/17/2003 7:08:18 AM PDT by I_Love_My_Husband
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To: Wolfie; vin-one; WindMinstrel; philman_36; Beach_Babe; jenny65; AUgrad; Xenalyte; Bill D. Berger; ..
WOD Ping
23 posted on 06/17/2003 7:09:21 AM PDT by jmc813 (After two years of FReeping, I've finally created a profile page. Check it out!)
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To: viligantcitizen
if MJ were legal, it would be grown outside in the dirt. No need for generators to power underground growrooms.

Another good point.

24 posted on 06/17/2003 7:10:31 AM PDT by MrLeRoy (The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. - Jefferson)
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To: chance33_98
Let's solve the whole problem by making heroin, LSD, crack, meth all legal, cheaper, more readily available.
25 posted on 06/17/2003 7:12:53 AM PDT by dennisw (What wit!)
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To: I_Love_My_Husband
dumb pro-druggies

No fact or logic, just namecalling. Duly noted.

not a-one of them is a Republican.

At least one anti-WOSD FReeper is a longtime GOP contributor, as he mentioned in a post the other day. And I vote for far more Republicans than Libertarians.

Liberaltarians get .5% of the vote, and JR seems to be quite sick of them these days

Actually, in a thread the other day he called them "our friends."

26 posted on 06/17/2003 7:15:04 AM PDT by MrLeRoy (The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. - Jefferson)
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To: I_Love_My_Husband
You're brave. These threads bring out the dumb pro-druggies here at FReep.

Jim Robinson has recently asked for FReeprs to cool down on the personal attacks, especially outside of the Smokey Backroom.

However, in our favor, not a-one of them is a Republican. They're all Liberaltarians so the rest of us just ignore them.

I can safely bet that I have done more for Republicans, time and money wise in the last two election cycles than you have.

I'm sure 10 of them will jump in and call me every name in the book now. But Liberaltarians get .5% of the vote, and JR seems to be quite sick of them these days

Is that why he called Libertarians "our friends" the other day, and supports most of the platform of the small-l libertarian Republican Liberty Caucus?

see the note where he wants to call FReep a Republican Discussion Group).

It's unchristian to lie. He floated the idea to FReepers and by about a 99% margin, they rejected the idea.

27 posted on 06/17/2003 7:16:00 AM PDT by jmc813 (After two years of FReeping, I've finally created a profile page. Check it out!)
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To: dennisw
Let's solve the whole problem by making heroin, LSD, crack, meth all legal, cheaper, more readily available.

Nah, I think it would be better to execute the bastard who sell them, but not drunk drivers.

28 posted on 06/17/2003 7:17:40 AM PDT by jmc813 (After two years of FReeping, I've finally created a profile page. Check it out!)
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To: jmc813
My program is to try and execute those who push heroin, LSD, crack, meth.

Your program is to make heroin, LSD, crack, meth all legal, cheaper, more readily available. So you want to kill more users while I want to have the pushers killed (trial + execution)
29 posted on 06/17/2003 7:22:52 AM PDT by dennisw (What wit!)
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To: dennisw
My program is to try and execute those who push heroin, LSD, crack, meth.

That wouldn't make a significant difference. Dealers now face an imminent threat of death from competitors or twitchy customers, yet they continue dealing, and when one dies or is arrested another springs up to take his place.

Your program is to make heroin, LSD, crack, meth all legal, cheaper, more readily available.

Relegalization would reduce the following effects of the War On Some Drugs: deaths of innocents in drug-turf wars; deaths of users due to impurities or unexpectedly high potencies; enrichment of criminals; corruption of the justice system by enriched criminals; and lessened respect for the law in general.

30 posted on 06/17/2003 7:27:24 AM PDT by MrLeRoy (The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. - Jefferson)
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To: dennisw
Your program is to make heroin, LSD, crack, meth all legal, cheaper, more readily available.

Like hell it is. Don't assume that I want to legalize all drugs all because I disagree with your execution plans.

I still don't know why you don't want to execute drunk drivers, who kill much more people than drug dealers.

31 posted on 06/17/2003 7:28:55 AM PDT by jmc813 (After two years of FReeping, I've finally created a profile page. Check it out!)
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To: jmc813
You are pro legalization. So just pot and not the hard drugs? You're just a pot head?
32 posted on 06/17/2003 7:31:46 AM PDT by dennisw (What wit!)
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To: MrLeRoy
"Plenty"? There's alcohol, if you're looking for a depressant and don't mind vomiting and hangovers. What are some other of these "plenty of ways"?

Like drugs there are varying levels of alcohol, beer, whiskey, wine, mixed drinks, etc. Yes, not exactly a plethora of choices, but you can choose your strength and flavor, as well as amount.

Who risks that---the dealer? He's not looking to get wasted but to make big profits.

I have no sympathy for either the dealers or the users. As I have said before, if you don't like the law work within the framework set up to change it. These folks are choosing not to do so. While they expect the rest of soceity to abide by the laws they choose to simply ignore them because they have no self control. If they want to do so to make a political statement, fine. But when you know the consequences, however wrong some may see them, and you go ahead and do it than you have no one but yourself to blame.

You want to end the wod, fine with me. I have no problem with like minded people gathering to change a law they see as wrong. We wouldn't need a wod if people who wanted to do drugs spent their time working within the system to change the law instead of running around breaking them.

I don't like the change in the abortion law. I am not going to go around bombing abortion clinincs, it only hurts the cause. Addicts who run around justifying their crime because of the high price of drugs, due to the wod, aren't helping their cause either.

People are willing to kill, steal, etc just to get money to get high on - do we blame the person who is doing the act, or do we take the liberal stance and blame someone else?

33 posted on 06/17/2003 7:32:42 AM PDT by chance33_98 (www.hannahmore.com -- Shepherd Of Salisbury Plain is online, more to come! (my website))
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To: dennisw
You are pro legalization.

Quit lying about me.

So just pot and not the hard drugs?

I think the immediate goal should be to restore respect for the Constitution and end the Federal Drug War. At that point each state should set it's own policies. In my state I would like to see hard drugs remain illegal. I do think it's pathetic tht pot is still illegal though.

You're just a pot head?

You're just a habitual drunk driver?

34 posted on 06/17/2003 7:34:38 AM PDT by jmc813 (After two years of FReeping, I've finally created a profile page. Check it out!)
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To: MrLeRoy
Cheaper drugs mean more addictions and drug deaths for you to get yr social Darwinist rocks off. "More oxygen for me" as your compadre hodar put it.

How's yr 50 latest posts doing? Have you been posting about anything other than drugs? You are a well known addict to the drug threads at FR. You got a jones.
35 posted on 06/17/2003 7:35:37 AM PDT by dennisw (What wit!)
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To: chance33_98
I don't like the change in the abortion law.

Roe v. Wade has about as much Constitutional authority as the Federal Drug War.

36 posted on 06/17/2003 7:36:18 AM PDT by jmc813 (After two years of FReeping, I've finally created a profile page. Check it out!)
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To: viligantcitizen
Because if MJ were legal, it would be grown outside in the dirt.

You mean like this?


37 posted on 06/17/2003 7:36:46 AM PDT by Wolfie
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To: jmc813
In my state I would like to see hard drugs remain illegal.......

That's where you part company with Leroy who seems to have gotten unstoned enough to recover his FR password.
38 posted on 06/17/2003 7:37:00 AM PDT by dennisw (What wit!)
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To: dennisw
How's yr 50 latest posts doing?

How's yr spelling doing?

39 posted on 06/17/2003 7:37:34 AM PDT by jmc813 (After two years of FReeping, I've finally created a profile page. Check it out!)
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To: chance33_98
A high electric bill supposedly attracts DEA attention so that's probably why they are turning to diesel generators.

Unintended consequences to the Drug War...

*adds pollution to the long list*
40 posted on 06/17/2003 7:38:57 AM PDT by Z10N157
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To: chance33_98
not exactly a plethora of choices

That's putting it mildly. There certainly are not "plenty of legal ways to get wasted"---there's basically ONE way (of no appeal to those looking for a stimulant).

Who risks that---the dealer? He's not looking to get wasted but to make big profits.

I have no sympathy [...]

Beside the point---which is that it's economically rational to be willing to risk massive jail time, losing everything you own, and so forth for big crack-selling profits and be unwilling to risk legal profits to avoid the relatively small costs of legally handling pollutants.

41 posted on 06/17/2003 7:39:13 AM PDT by MrLeRoy (The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. - Jefferson)
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To: dennisw
That's where you part company with Leroy who seems to have gotten unstoned enough to recover his FR password.

Yes, Leroy and I do disagrree on that. I still think he's a lot more of an intelligent poster than you. He doesn't act like a 12 year old throwing around accusations, and he's consistent in his beliefs unlike a drunk driving advocate I know.

42 posted on 06/17/2003 7:39:35 AM PDT by jmc813 (After two years of FReeping, I've finally created a profile page. Check it out!)
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To: dennisw
Cheaper drugs mean more addictions and drug deaths for you to get yr social Darwinist rocks off. "More oxygen for me"

STILL telling this lie about me? You are beneath contempt.

43 posted on 06/17/2003 7:40:17 AM PDT by MrLeRoy (The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. - Jefferson)
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To: chance33_98
Heck, why would they obey the law anymore then than they do now?

Actually, they'd probably get out of the business altogether. The only reason that most drug dealers do what they do is for $$$$. Make it legal, and the enormous profit potential goes away. You wouldn't be able to raise enough indoors to even cover the expenses. Remember, this stuff will grow just about anywhere. It really is a weed. If it weren't illegal, you would be able to get it nearly for free.

Mark

44 posted on 06/17/2003 7:41:06 AM PDT by MarkL (OK, I'm going to crawl back under my rock now!)
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To: jmc813
Roe v. Wade has about as much Constitutional authority as the Federal Drug War.

And breaking the law because you think the supreme court made a bad decision is not the way society works. Government can totally suck at times (more power to the states), but we have a system of change in this country. If some thing it is beyond repair, take arms and march on washington. I for one still believe it works, though that belief slips more each day. We can elect people who represent us and interpret the const. the way we think it should be. It takes a lot of hard work, not something which is gonna be done by a bunch of crank heads on 34th street - they are too lazy to work for change, so they just ignore the law and whine when caught.

45 posted on 06/17/2003 7:41:26 AM PDT by chance33_98 (www.hannahmore.com -- Shepherd Of Salisbury Plain is online, more to come! (my website))
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To: jmc813
he's a lot more of an intelligent poster than you.

That's a poor excuse for a compliment. ;-)

46 posted on 06/17/2003 7:41:41 AM PDT by MrLeRoy (The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. - Jefferson)
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To: chance33_98
Just as a side-note:  if you recall the "Peace Demonstration" in San Francisco where a reporter was charged with pre-placing 4(6?) Molotov cocktails in a bush prior to the actual festivities -- he was fired from this newspaper for lying in a article about the response of police to a domestic disturbance call.

The Times-Standard has always been a Mini-Me West, of the NYT.

47 posted on 06/17/2003 7:43:28 AM PDT by Psycho_Bunny
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To: MrLeRoy
Right. So your solution is to make these poisons cheaper, more widely available and legal. Making more addicts and family tragedies has no bearing on your twisted libertarianism/libertinism. You figure you are above all that so F 'em. Even if some of these addicts served and fought for this country

Not very clever or nice LeRoy.
48 posted on 06/17/2003 7:44:13 AM PDT by dennisw (What wit!)
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To: chance33_98
And breaking the law because you think the supreme court made a bad decision is not the way society works.

I agree with you there. While I realize there is a time and place for civil disobedience, I really have no desire to break the current drug laws.

49 posted on 06/17/2003 7:44:14 AM PDT by jmc813 (After two years of FReeping, I've finally created a profile page. Check it out!)
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To: MrLeRoy
Cheaper drugs mean more addictions and drug deaths for you to get yr social Darwinist rocks off.....

True in your case and your friend hodar. Maybe he'll show up to confirm.

50 posted on 06/17/2003 7:45:31 AM PDT by dennisw (What wit!)
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