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The Evil of Dating (Dating vs.Courtship)
Lewrockwell.com ^ | September 7, 2002 | Heather M. Carson

Posted on 06/19/2003 8:29:45 AM PDT by Korth

On April 20, 2002 I married Stephen W. Carson after a 4-month courtship and 4-month engagement. Our marriage date marked for me almost five and one half years since I stopped dating, a decision I made at aged 23. Now I date almost every night – my husband!

Dating became a rather disheartening and shallow way of finding a mate, and so I made a rather unprecedented decision to stop. I say unprecedented because, while I am not the first one to do this, I am one of the only people I know, except for my husband who had independently also stopped dating almost one year before I did. During my abstinence from dating I received offers from men to go out and much to the dismay of my mother, turned them down. "How will you find a husband this way, Heather?" she asked, pining for grandchildren. With all vocabulary about courtship having been disposed of, I had no way of explaining that my heart’s desire was for exactly that – courtship, and so I usually said nothing or explained that I would be praying for God to provide. Now before you deem me a holy roller, allow me to elaborate on what brought me to this place.

During my undergraduate studies I wo rked as a Resident Advisor in a freshman dorm to help pay for school. My campus was rather unusual in that all of the dorms were still same-sex since the school was private and relatively conservative. At the beginning of the year I would sit down with the girls and go over dorm rules and answer any questions they might have. Many of these girls were away from home for the first time and welcomed the help. Each year, I would learn that many, if not most, of the freshman girls were virgins. One by one these girls came to me, after only a few months at college, wrestling with the desire of their new college boyfriends to be physical with them. One by one I counseled them to wait to have sex. Unfortunately, by the end of first semester, nearly all of them had become sexually active and were now nursing broken hearts, unplanned pregnancies or STDs, and were left with the question of how to cope with dating experiences gone awry. By the end of second semester these boyfriends had already broken up with the girls whose virginity they had taken and were pursuing other girls. Even as I look back, I am amazed at what I advised them since I was, at that time, actively dating and certainly had not been taught any rules about proper courtship.

My own dating experiences started out innocent enough. I began in high school around aged 14. I remember feeling uncomfortable left to make my own decisions about whom I would and would not date. I was asked out by a senior during my freshman year, and timidly turned him down feeling like I was making a major social blunder. I recall one date when the guy didn’t want to take me home right after the movie, which ended in a minor physical struggle before he finally agreed. My dating experiences in college were less traumatic, at first. But after a while, the lack of parental protection, and seeing so many of my peers going hog wild with their new sexual freedom, I grew rather cynical and began treating men worse than they treated me. My self-esteem plummeted. Finally, at aged 23 I decided to call it quits.

I see two main problems with dating as it is now. One is its purposelessness. I’ll illustrate this to explain. As a professional counselor, I’ve been asked to speak on the topic of dating numerous times at church youth groups. Youth pastors, church leaders, and parents are desperately trying to impress some kind of moral constraint on their youth by bringing in a "professional" to reconstruct the definition of dating. At these speaking engagements I look out into the faces of bright, eager youth and begin by having them think and rethink about their definition of dating, to somehow mold a definition that does not imply getting emotionally and physically involved without the proper protection that marital commitment brings. The lingo from the teens goes something like: "Dating means….being in a relationship". Or…"having a boyfriend/girlfriend." Or…"playing the field." Or (my personal favorite) …"getting to know each other."

What does all of this talk about relationships and boyfriends and girlfriends really mean? When I venture to ask those bright, eager faces they simply have no idea. This is dating: the act of being in a relationship or playing the field or getting to know each other for the purpose of ….the act of being in a relationship or playing the field…You get the idea.

What is particularly heartbreaking about all of this nonsense is the aftermath. As a counselor I have seen numerous teens and young adults wrestling with the consequences of this kind of dating. They are bewildered by their emotional reactions. Dating is, after all, supposed to be casual. One girl, I recall, felt so bad at the end of a dating relationship that her parents sent her to me for counseling. She was depressed and confused about her response and not sure how to handle it. Young girls are taught that something is wrong with them if they experience longings for commitment. After months of being led on by her boyfriend with talk of marriage she began to realize he had no intention of following through. Her biggest need at this time was permission from an adult to break up with this young man since she wasn’t getting it from peers or parents. Once armed with this permission, she ended the relationship, her depression ended, and she became a much happier young lady. Another teen girl I counseled was not so fortunate. She was very pretty, and had no idea how to handle the attention from her fellow male classmates. Her parents gave her no real guidelines for how to conduct herself, and yet she had somehow managed to preserve her virginity. Nonetheless, her low level of emotional maturity often led to putting herself into compromising situations, not to mention the morally chaotic excuses she used to justify her own behavior. She stopped attending our sessions without any real change in her behavior, and I often wonder how she’s doing now. One thing nearly all of these cases had in common is that their fathers are not providing the protection needed.

"Isn’t our daughter cute…isn’t she popular…she’s dating now!" parents proudly proclaim. What the above girls really needed were protective fathers to help ward off unwanted physical advances honeyed with deceptive talk of love and marriage.

But it’s not just young women who are heartbroken. I have heard from young men too who have no idea about how to go about courting a young woman toward marriage. If a teenage boy shows interest in treating girls properly, with respect and gentility he is made fun of mercilessly. One particular young man comes to mind who, when his last relationship ended, was crushed. He had wanted to marry her, but he really had no idea how to do anything but date and so avoided the topic of marriage. The relationship ended with the young man feeling empty, depressed and confused. Our young men do not know how to initiate commitment, or pursue a woman toward marriage. The cultural message is that this is not a quality valued in a man anymore.

Some may object and say that dating does have a purpose, citing the definition I gave earlier (getting to know each other, etc.). But what does this getting to know each other ever lead to? How long does it actually take to "get to know each other," and if you finally do reach the level of "knowing each other," what then? Usually this aimlessness leads to the dating couple becoming lovers, and many times bringing an unwanted child into the world. Or acting as if they didn’t know sex was procreative and killing the poor baby, calling this the merciful thing to do as we have now deemed the greater tragedy a living child who is unwanted. I hear complaints about the shame and annoyance of unwanted pregnancy without any attempt to address the true cause: irresponsible, unchaste behavior and no boundaries to how men and women ought to be relating to each other. Dating provides no structure for male and female relationships, and our endorsement of this kind of coupling is only enabling the very social ills we complain about.

The above examples lead me to my second problem with dating. Where are the parents? With regard to the college campuses, the answer is easy: nowhere to be found. Year after year parents send their youths off to get an education with no authority figures in sight to bring some kind of restraint to their sons and daughters. In an effort made by our parents to destroy convention another convention has arisen to fill the void – dating, instead of courtship. Dating views each possible eligible (and many times ineligible) person as a mate – not for life, but for right now. I’ve heard it said, "I’m looking for Mr. Right," but this is passé. I have actually heard women say, "I’m looking for Mr. Right now." I’m not fooled. I saw these same girls crying and depressed about being dumped after a one-night-stand.

But permissiveness about dating starts long before college, in junior high and high school. I was amazed at the number of freshman girls who were still virgins in college since at my own high school the talk in the girls’ bathroom indicated that the sexual revolution was alive and well. Any girls who claimed chastity were promptly deemed prude as if they were lepers. So…where are the parents? Well, they are allowing their sons and daughters to date at ages 12 and 14. If the parents are really "uncool" they make the teen wait until age 16. But wait for what? What does age have to do with it if the parents will provide no guidance, no purpose, or responsibility? It’s simply not enough to hear it at their church youth groups from a professional counselor. So off these kids go without parental protection to embark on "getting to know each other," "being in a relationship."

But the real problem with all of this purposelessness and lack of parental control is the false perception of human nature that is the driving forces behind it. Human beings need constraints to guide our behavior. As it is now, we call our weaknesses strengths. We praise our lack of self-control and restraint and call ourselves "liberated." We talk about the innate goodness of mankind and then fail to make good on our promises. "I promise I’ll love you if you’ll just sleep with me." We elevate predatory sexual behavior calling it "playing the field" and say we are following our animal instincts. I have yet to see an animal mate out of anything but an instinctual drive to procreate. As it is, we have sunk lower than the animals since we don’t even want to discuss that sex is procreative anymore. This is dating. "For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools…."(Romans 1: 21-22)

If I have made any kind of case against our current dating practices, I know that was the easy part. The solution is not necessarily obvious, and our current cultural atmosphere simply does not provide any support for a return to old courtship practices. In the past, these practices were the backbone of any community since it was mostly through courtship that new families were begun to become productive members of a community. This simply is not the norm anymore. But, there have been a few of us, disheartened by current practices that have stopped dating altogether in exchange for abstinence, and courtship, and those that are interested in doing so. Just this past weekend, for the second Sunday in a row, I had a teen girl approach me and express a desire to meet with me and talk about alternatives to dating. Some of my friends have begun to forsake the dating scene for a more respectful and less predatory way of interacting with the opposite sex, and are the happier for it. While the effects of the sexual revolution have been devastating, I am seeing a flicker inside the hearts of many youths that indicate they are beginning to desire something more, something deeper, which is a real cause for hope and rejoicing.

I began this article by saying I recently married after a 4-month courtship. This was both a bewildering and exciting experience for Stephen and me as we grappled with the resurrection of a ritual that has long been dead. Leon and Amy Kass define courtship as "to woo with a view toward marriage." I believe our courtship was a success. We avoided the purposelessness of dating by setting boundaries on our time together and made it known that marriage was the overall goal, whether it would be to each other or someone else. We made sure our actions protected each other from the embarrassment and awkwardness of getting too emotionally involved too fast by each having the accountability of our parents and elders in our life. No talk of marriage was made until an actual proposal was given, and there was no kissing until the ring was on my finger, (how exciting that night was!!). We remained physically chaste until our wedding night. I am so thankful that our courtship was a wonderful and memorable process that I will want to share with our children some day, and without all of the embarrassing mishaps and broken promises that a lack of structure and purpose brings.

While I cannot, at this time, give a concrete and historical dissertation on courtship, I can recommend several books that I have read and two that I am currently reading on the subject. Starting with the ones I have read:

Passion and Purity, Quest for Love – both by author Elisabeth Elliot. The first book deals with her own courtship experience with her late husband Jim Elliot, and the latter focuses more on general courtship practices and answers specific questions for how to proceed in our current atmosphere.

I Kissed Dating Goodbye written by Joshua Harris. This is a great book for young adults interested in learning how to pull back from dating.

I am currently reading: Wing to Wing, Oar to Oar written by Amy Kass and Leon Kass. This book is a historical anthology of writings on courtship. I am so excited to have been directed to it by my husband. I am nearly finished reading A Return to Modesty by Wendy Shalit, which addresses the effects on our culture of losing the virtue of modesty, a key aspect of historical courtship.

So, go ahead…stop dating!!! Liberate yourself from the baggage that dating relationships always leave you with. Read up on courtship and enjoy the mystery and excitement that modesty and self-restraint bring.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial
KEYWORDS: christianity; courtship; dating; marriage
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1 posted on 06/19/2003 8:29:45 AM PDT by Korth
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To: Korth
Seeing as this came from lewrockwell.com, I was surprised to read that the author did not blame modern dating and courtship problems on Abraham Lincoln.
2 posted on 06/19/2003 8:35:46 AM PDT by egarvue (Martin Sheen is not my president...)
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To: Korth
To read later.
3 posted on 06/19/2003 8:39:45 AM PDT by savedbygrace
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To: egarvue
"Seeing as this came from lewrockwell.com....."

And that says it all. I suggest that parents give this story to their teenagers and check out the reactions.

So, this young woman decided not to date. That's great...for her. But now, she's decided that others probably should not date, either.

My real question, though, is why a college RA is asking dorm residents whether they're virgins or not?
4 posted on 06/19/2003 8:41:56 AM PDT by MineralMan
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To: Korth
I am a romantic, I married my high school sweetheart. I haven't stopped "dating" her. I was infatuated with in in the 9th grade (1979) and we were on our first outing the next year. I have been with her since and do not see life with out her.

I have a daughter and 3 sons, each are learning how to have long term relationships, that it is a slow process to learn about someone, but even if you just meet someone, you can marry and make a relationship work.

Love is what you do, not how you feel!

We just had our 18th wedding anniversary, and we have been together 24 years! We are only 37 (38 this year)years with our birthdays 16 days apart (same year).

Relationships are a work of art and need time to produce.

5 posted on 06/19/2003 8:43:19 AM PDT by Zavien Doombringer (If the method to fix something is easy, there must be something wrong! Start a commitee!)
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To: Zavien Doombringer
Well put.
6 posted on 06/19/2003 8:47:24 AM PDT by Bikers4Bush
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To: Korth
Feminism drivel in the guise of conservatism. Notice that the article was written in a way in which the writer (who is female) puts the blame on the boys for these girls losing their virginity.

Now to give the writer credit, she did try to talk the girls out of having sex, but at the end of the day, after these girl lost their virginity (by free choose), she blamed the boys and not the girls themselves for losing their virginity.

7 posted on 06/19/2003 8:48:10 AM PDT by Paul C. Jesup
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To: Korth
bump for later reading
8 posted on 06/19/2003 8:50:12 AM PDT by goodnesswins (FR - the truth, and nothing but the truth.........getting to the bottom of journalistic bias.)
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To: Korth
Unfortunately, by the end of first semester, nearly all of them had become sexually active and were now nursing broken hearts, unplanned pregnancies or STDs

These women were way too stupid to be going to college.

So9

9 posted on 06/19/2003 8:52:18 AM PDT by Servant of the Nine (A Goldwater Republican)
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To: Paul C. Jesup
What's wrong with sex? Sure, not good for younger teens, but if you're 18-25, whats the big deal? If you do it right, you have nothing to worry about. Might as well have fun while you're young.
10 posted on 06/19/2003 8:53:14 AM PDT by Norse
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To: Zavien Doombringer
"We just had our 18th wedding anniversary, and we have been together 24 years! We are only 37 (38 this year)years with our birthdays 16 days apart (same year)."

Congratulations to you and your spouse! Been together since age 13. Pretty amazing.
11 posted on 06/19/2003 8:53:33 AM PDT by MineralMan
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To: Bikers4Bush
Oh yeah, I need to add, we never "lived together" before we got married!
12 posted on 06/19/2003 8:55:33 AM PDT by Zavien Doombringer (If the method to fix something is easy, there must be something wrong! Start a commitee!)
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To: Paul C. Jesup
This author has a real point.Dating in AMERICA today leads to massive immorality.Reversing the clock back to the way male-female relationships were for the vast majority of time would not constitute a negative.How many of you are in touch with the TEEN SCENCE today.Parents have left the teens to their own devices.
13 posted on 06/19/2003 8:56:12 AM PDT by y2k_free_radical (i)
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To: MineralMan
Thanks, and yes it is...I look at her today and I wonder how she puts up with me sometimes :)

I hasn't been the easiest, but I know I could never be with out her.

14 posted on 06/19/2003 8:57:38 AM PDT by Zavien Doombringer (If the method to fix something is easy, there must be something wrong! Start a commitee!)
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To: Norse
Apparently you think the BIBLE is erroneous.
15 posted on 06/19/2003 8:58:50 AM PDT by y2k_free_radical (i)
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To: savedbygrace
"We avoided the purposelessness of dating by setting boundaries on our time together and made it known that marriage was the overall goal, whether it would be to each other or someone else."

And the difference between this and dating is what??? Apparently then this author (I'm a born-again Christian and I don't agree with this) believes that any relationship between boy and girl that is not consciously headed towards marriage is pointless. I disagree, dating and companionship can be very comforting to a lonely late-teen to college student, even if the person is someone you may not marry. Besides, you never really know that for sure until a proposal is made, and dating (courtship) provides the method of finding out.

"No talk of marriage was made until an actual proposal was given, and there was no kissing until the ring was on my finger, (how exciting that night was!!)."

To which he was thinking "holy crap is her breath going to be this bad for the rest of our lives??"


"Some of my friends have begun to forsake the dating scene for a more respectful and less predatory way of interacting with the opposite sex, and are the happier for it."

Translation: girl plays hard-to-get and plays with every guy's mind. Regular, stand-up guy never really knows where he stands with her. Guy probably has enough after a little while and dumps her. Girl is basically single until some poor lonely sap pathetically sticks it out and becomes so obsessed with her that he asks her to marry him. To his suprise she says "yes", because she knows that any guy who is not a dependent pathetic loser hanging on to a thin shred of hope for a relationship will never stick around for this kind of treatment for very long and if she wants to get married she has no choice.



16 posted on 06/19/2003 9:01:04 AM PDT by Abe Froman
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To: Norse
Young unmarried sex creates "dysfunctional adults to whom a long term "relationship" means the length of time needed to seduce, copulate and disappear. Broken families.", in the words of Marshmallow.

Abe
17 posted on 06/19/2003 9:11:00 AM PDT by Abe Froman
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To: y2k_free_radical
Where does it say that pre-maritial sex is wrong in the bible? I've sure never seen it
18 posted on 06/19/2003 9:17:54 AM PDT by Norse
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To: Korth
bump 4 later
19 posted on 06/19/2003 9:20:14 AM PDT by Centurion2000 (We are crushing our enemies, seeing him driven before us and hearing the lamentations of the liberal)
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To: Norse
It's called fornication, and there is PLENTY written on it.
20 posted on 06/19/2003 9:35:04 AM PDT by RRWCC (Even under a good king, a subject is still a subject.)
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To: Norse
There is no such thing as "premarital sex." Once you have sex, you've literally become one with that person, and in a sense have "married" them. Of course, there's not the commitment of "marriage," but once you've become one with someone, something significant has happened.

The first few chapters of Proverbs address sex outside of marriage, as do other portions of Scripture. I don't have a Bible with me now, but if you're sincerely interested, I could do a bit of research.

21 posted on 06/19/2003 10:05:48 AM PDT by Theo
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To: y2k_free_radical
I do.
22 posted on 06/19/2003 10:08:26 AM PDT by stuartcr
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To: Korth; homeschool mama; McLynnan; mtngrl@vrwc; Mo1; JoysKid; Lauratealeaf
I Kissed Dating Goodbye written by Joshua Harris. This is a great book for young adults interested in learning how to pull back from dating.

This IS a good book, and dating for teens these days is a BAD idea.

It's artificial in the first place, and doesn't help you "know what you are looking for in a spouse." Being friends in groups with both sexes is far better for that.

And more important, this sex-charged society is dangerous for teens. They need all the help they can get to avoid situations where their morals might too easily be compromised.

I don't know the author's intent, but the bottom line is correct.

23 posted on 06/19/2003 10:08:32 AM PDT by ohioWfan (BUSH 2004!!!! Leadership, Integrity, Morality)
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To: Norse
Try reading it.
24 posted on 06/19/2003 10:09:23 AM PDT by ohioWfan (BUSH 2004!!!! Leadership, Integrity, Morality)
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To: Korth; biblewonk
We elevate predatory sexual behavior calling it "playing the field" and say we are following our animal instincts. I have yet to see an animal mate out of anything but an instinctual drive to procreate. As it is, we have sunk lower than the animals since we don’t even want to discuss that sex is procreative anymore. This is dating. "For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools…."(Romans 1: 21-22)

Don't stop there! Verse 24 says, "Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them." This is sex outside of marriage!!
_________
{ping} You likely won't see this for another week-and-a-half. But, when you return, take a look. I think it's an excellent article.

25 posted on 06/19/2003 10:09:28 AM PDT by newgeezer (fundamentalist, regarding the Constitution AND the Holy Bible, i.e. WORDS MEAN THINGS)
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To: Paul C. Jesup
Feminism drivel in the guise of conservatism

There's not one touch of feminism in this article. It's about making moral choices, and the wisdom of not dating......for both boys and girls. The author just happens to be a female, who knows the stories of other females.

My Christian, conservative kids have made the same choice not to date (and to wait for courtship of one they might marry) based on moral purity, and using their time more wisely (in church, music, sports and academics).

26 posted on 06/19/2003 10:16:24 AM PDT by ohioWfan (BUSH 2004!!!! Leadership, Integrity, Morality)
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To: egarvue; savedbygrace; MineralMan; Zavien Doombringer; Bikers4Bush; Paul C. Jesup; goodnesswins; ...
... pinging everyone who's posted so far, so I can add the unusual fact that I've done exactly what this woman's done.

I became friends with a young lady from church, and sensed that there might be something "special," that perhaps the Lord was calling us to be partners for life.

After our friendship was pretty solid, I asked her if she was interested in together determining whether or not it was the Lord's will for us to be married. We called that "courting." During our courtship, we were exclusive in the sense that we didn't express any long-term relational interest in others, but we didn't do the things that are common on most dating relationships. We didn't kiss; we didn't even hold hands. It wasn't about me meeting my emotional/romantic desires, or meeting hers, but about discerning whether the Lord was calling us to be husband and wife.

After 4 months of this, getting to know each other more deeply, praying about it, seeking the counsel of people we trust, I asked her to marry me. It was pretty romantic, on the beach. She said, "Yes, of course." And that was the first night we held hands.

Four months later, we were married, and when the pastor said, "You may kiss your bride" ... well, I received "permission" to do so ... and we kissed for the first time.

What I believe this story, and the author's story, is saying is that it is do-able. That single people have alternatives to "dating." That you can get married and have no regrets. I don't feel guilty about a single thing my wife and I did before we got married. Purity. Innocence. It's quite nice.

I'm not demanding that others do this. But I'm letting others know that it is do-able, and that it was a wonderful way to grow closer, to discern God's will, and to start a faithful relationship.

Ted

BTW, I'm not the cliched geeky, holier-than-thou type. I'm a pretty normal guy, a musician in a band (keyboard player), do video editing, and am a front-end software developer (among other things)

(photos of us: http://www.ijot.com/ashleigh)

27 posted on 06/19/2003 10:26:18 AM PDT by Theo
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To: Theo

Does this church look familiar? :) God bless you both, you are on the way!

28 posted on 06/19/2003 10:33:58 AM PDT by Zavien Doombringer (If the method to fix something is easy, there must be something wrong! Start a commitee!)
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To: Theo
Excellent! Excellent!

My husband and I have a similar story (though not QUITE as disciplined as you and your wife were!), and we have been ecstatically married for almost 27 years now.

The confidence in knowing that you were the ONLY one for each other, and that you waited for your wedding night to show it, makes marriage oh, so much sweeter!

29 posted on 06/19/2003 10:34:39 AM PDT by ohioWfan (BUSH 2004!!!! Leadership, Integrity, Morality)
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To: Norse
Adultery = Sex outside marriage. See the woman at the well. The Bible also condemns fornicators.
30 posted on 06/19/2003 10:38:44 AM PDT by AppyPappy (If You're Not A Part Of The Solution, There's Good Money To Be Made In Prolonging The Problem.)
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To: Theo
A date is s terrible way to get to know someone. Both people are nervous and uneasy.
31 posted on 06/19/2003 10:40:36 AM PDT by AppyPappy (If You're Not A Part Of The Solution, There's Good Money To Be Made In Prolonging The Problem.)
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To: Abe Froman
The concept of courtship appears to be gaining popularity among evangelical churches. The youth pastor at our church essentially preaches about it every year around Feb. 14. While I'm not sure I agree with everything, some of it makes sense. Also, I'm sure there are different permutations of how courtship would work. Essentially the parents take a more active role in the relationship, but here's a rough example of what I've heard...

Say Joe likes Sarah, so he goes to Sarah's dad (NOT Sarah) and and asks Dad if he can see Sarah. Assuming Joe raises no red flags with Dad, Dad then goes to Sarah and pitches the idea to her. If she has no interest, Dad tells Joe the bad news (no pressure on Sarah). If she is interested, Dad relays the good news and essentially facilitates the two seeing each other. The two are NEVER alone, all visits are supervised, and no physical contact is allowed. Any "dates" are done with a group.

I may have misstated some of this, but essentially that's what I've heard. My own opinion is that young people need to be taught that they do not need romance in their lives until they're ready to marry. Unfortunately our society does everything to encourage romantic relationships among teens.
32 posted on 06/19/2003 10:42:09 AM PDT by opus86
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To: AppyPappy
I thought adultery was when one or both partners where married to someone else?

And fornication was sex outside of marriage.

So you could have two fornicators, or one adulterer and a fornicator or two adulterers.
33 posted on 06/19/2003 10:42:50 AM PDT by najida (What handbasket? And where did you say we were going?)
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To: najida
According to Jesus, all sex outside marriage is adultery.
34 posted on 06/19/2003 10:48:13 AM PDT by AppyPappy (If You're Not A Part Of The Solution, There's Good Money To Be Made In Prolonging The Problem.)
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To: AppyPappy
OK,
I was just going on what I was told by a divorce lawyer.
35 posted on 06/19/2003 10:49:27 AM PDT by najida (What handbasket? And where did you say we were going?)
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To: Korth
I've always felt that dating should lead to marriage or what's the point?
36 posted on 06/19/2003 10:50:08 AM PDT by Question_Assumptions
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To: Korth
One by one these girls came to me, after only a few months at college, wrestling with the desire of their new college boyfriends to be physical with them.

I have never ever ever heard of a college student who sought out their Resident Advisor for help with sexual decisions.

I thought they were just there to sneak beer past.

37 posted on 06/19/2003 10:52:16 AM PDT by dead
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To: Theo
If you needed permission, why didn't you ask the person involved?
38 posted on 06/19/2003 10:54:27 AM PDT by stuartcr
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To: Abe Froman
I think the difference is seriousness of intent - which can be unspoken. Group friendship is way better for meeting needs of companionship and relationship than individual "dating" which is often someone using the other person to fill a personal need (sex, someone else to pay, etc).

I only pursued women that I thought were possibilities for a commitment that could lead to marriage. I got burned a few times, but that was good to learn during the courtship.

My wife had the opposite idea - go out with any guy if you wanted someone else to pay and have a good time. She had a much more shallow and painful dating experience until she switched to courtship.

39 posted on 06/19/2003 10:55:01 AM PDT by NorthGA
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To: AppyPappy
Or fornication, Adultery is commited among Married people, Fornication is sex before marriage.
40 posted on 06/19/2003 11:01:57 AM PDT by Zavien Doombringer (If the method to fix something is easy, there must be something wrong! Start a commitee!)
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To: ohioWfan
My daughter and I have both read "I kissed Dating Goodbye" and it helped. She has a boyfriend, but they do things with other friends in a group -- most of their activities are related to the church youth group. They both made an abstinence pledge in front of their parents and congregations before they met each other. Her young man is a terrific person raised by strong Christian parents and we communicate regularly with each other and with our teens about God's plan for them. They spend most of their time together either with a group or in one of our homes with parental supervision. I don't totally agree that all dating is bad -- at some point you have to gradually let go and trust that your parenting and their common sense will guide them.
41 posted on 06/19/2003 11:08:48 AM PDT by McLynnan
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To: kjenerette
...interesting reading.
42 posted on 06/19/2003 11:20:49 AM PDT by Van Jenerette (Our Republic...If We Can Keep It!)
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To: Korth
To quote a great band, Good Charlotte (and this is a kicking video) - "Girls don't like boys, girls like cars and money...."
43 posted on 06/19/2003 11:21:29 AM PDT by Chancellor Palpatine (my other tagline is witty and rich with content)
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To: Paul C. Jesup
For a guy whose idea of a love life and women stems from reading comic books, why do you even bother offering up an opinion?

Or did they cover this while you were watching "The Transformers" one day?

44 posted on 06/19/2003 11:23:41 AM PDT by Chancellor Palpatine (my other tagline is witty and rich with content)
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To: ohioWfan
There's not one touch of feminism in this article.

I disagree, the following is the second to last sentence in the third paragraph of the article in question.

By the end of second semester these boyfriends had already broken up with the girls whose virginity they had taken and were pursuing other girls.

45 posted on 06/19/2003 11:23:59 AM PDT by Paul C. Jesup
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To: Chancellor Palpatine
Chancellor Palpatine, it is one thing to insult someone for what they have done. It is quite another thing to insult someone for something they have NOT done.

One's stupidity really shows when they insult a person for something they have NOT done.

I was commenting on a cartoon, NOT a comicbook.

46 posted on 06/19/2003 11:28:42 AM PDT by Paul C. Jesup
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To: Chancellor Palpatine
So many single girls in the world, but not one single lady.
47 posted on 06/19/2003 11:29:51 AM PDT by Paul C. Jesup
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To: Paul C. Jesup
I'll agree there may be an argument to be made here over semantics (i.e. whether the boy took her virginity or she gave it up). However I doubt the intent was driven by feminism. If anything courtship - with its emphasis on accountability to parents and other authority figures - is contrary to feminist doctrine.
48 posted on 06/19/2003 11:30:23 AM PDT by opus86
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To: Korth
I am a middle-aged Christian man, so I have no dispute with the idea of not having sex outside of marriage.

I have lots of comments, but the first thing that struck me is Ms. Carson does not say how she met her husband and what happened during their courtship. Also she and her husband did not seem to know each other very long prior to marriage and having only been married for a very short time, she hardly has experienced enough to really know if she ought to be considered an authority on dating.

Her problems with dating seem to be more related to not dating smart rather than not dating. If aperson isn't dating smart, I can see why not dating at all would be better until one learns how to do it right.
49 posted on 06/19/2003 11:34:17 AM PDT by connectthedots
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To: AppyPappy
According to Jesus, all sex outside marriage is adultery.

Interestingly, I've had fairly strict religious Jews tell me that non-/pre-marital sex is NOT considered a sin under many circumstances according to their religion. They've always told me that the fixation on total abstinence outside of marriage is something Christians invented, and not a part of its Judaic heritage.

It is an interesting cultural note, considering the history.

50 posted on 06/19/2003 11:34:17 AM PDT by tortoise (Would you like to buy some rubber nipples?)
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