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The Evil of Dating (Dating vs.Courtship)
Lewrockwell.com ^ | September 7, 2002 | Heather M. Carson

Posted on 06/19/2003 8:29:45 AM PDT by Korth

On April 20, 2002 I married Stephen W. Carson after a 4-month courtship and 4-month engagement. Our marriage date marked for me almost five and one half years since I stopped dating, a decision I made at aged 23. Now I date almost every night – my husband!

Dating became a rather disheartening and shallow way of finding a mate, and so I made a rather unprecedented decision to stop. I say unprecedented because, while I am not the first one to do this, I am one of the only people I know, except for my husband who had independently also stopped dating almost one year before I did. During my abstinence from dating I received offers from men to go out and much to the dismay of my mother, turned them down. "How will you find a husband this way, Heather?" she asked, pining for grandchildren. With all vocabulary about courtship having been disposed of, I had no way of explaining that my heart’s desire was for exactly that – courtship, and so I usually said nothing or explained that I would be praying for God to provide. Now before you deem me a holy roller, allow me to elaborate on what brought me to this place.

During my undergraduate studies I wo rked as a Resident Advisor in a freshman dorm to help pay for school. My campus was rather unusual in that all of the dorms were still same-sex since the school was private and relatively conservative. At the beginning of the year I would sit down with the girls and go over dorm rules and answer any questions they might have. Many of these girls were away from home for the first time and welcomed the help. Each year, I would learn that many, if not most, of the freshman girls were virgins. One by one these girls came to me, after only a few months at college, wrestling with the desire of their new college boyfriends to be physical with them. One by one I counseled them to wait to have sex. Unfortunately, by the end of first semester, nearly all of them had become sexually active and were now nursing broken hearts, unplanned pregnancies or STDs, and were left with the question of how to cope with dating experiences gone awry. By the end of second semester these boyfriends had already broken up with the girls whose virginity they had taken and were pursuing other girls. Even as I look back, I am amazed at what I advised them since I was, at that time, actively dating and certainly had not been taught any rules about proper courtship.

My own dating experiences started out innocent enough. I began in high school around aged 14. I remember feeling uncomfortable left to make my own decisions about whom I would and would not date. I was asked out by a senior during my freshman year, and timidly turned him down feeling like I was making a major social blunder. I recall one date when the guy didn’t want to take me home right after the movie, which ended in a minor physical struggle before he finally agreed. My dating experiences in college were less traumatic, at first. But after a while, the lack of parental protection, and seeing so many of my peers going hog wild with their new sexual freedom, I grew rather cynical and began treating men worse than they treated me. My self-esteem plummeted. Finally, at aged 23 I decided to call it quits.

I see two main problems with dating as it is now. One is its purposelessness. I’ll illustrate this to explain. As a professional counselor, I’ve been asked to speak on the topic of dating numerous times at church youth groups. Youth pastors, church leaders, and parents are desperately trying to impress some kind of moral constraint on their youth by bringing in a "professional" to reconstruct the definition of dating. At these speaking engagements I look out into the faces of bright, eager youth and begin by having them think and rethink about their definition of dating, to somehow mold a definition that does not imply getting emotionally and physically involved without the proper protection that marital commitment brings. The lingo from the teens goes something like: "Dating means….being in a relationship". Or…"having a boyfriend/girlfriend." Or…"playing the field." Or (my personal favorite) …"getting to know each other."

What does all of this talk about relationships and boyfriends and girlfriends really mean? When I venture to ask those bright, eager faces they simply have no idea. This is dating: the act of being in a relationship or playing the field or getting to know each other for the purpose of ….the act of being in a relationship or playing the field…You get the idea.

What is particularly heartbreaking about all of this nonsense is the aftermath. As a counselor I have seen numerous teens and young adults wrestling with the consequences of this kind of dating. They are bewildered by their emotional reactions. Dating is, after all, supposed to be casual. One girl, I recall, felt so bad at the end of a dating relationship that her parents sent her to me for counseling. She was depressed and confused about her response and not sure how to handle it. Young girls are taught that something is wrong with them if they experience longings for commitment. After months of being led on by her boyfriend with talk of marriage she began to realize he had no intention of following through. Her biggest need at this time was permission from an adult to break up with this young man since she wasn’t getting it from peers or parents. Once armed with this permission, she ended the relationship, her depression ended, and she became a much happier young lady. Another teen girl I counseled was not so fortunate. She was very pretty, and had no idea how to handle the attention from her fellow male classmates. Her parents gave her no real guidelines for how to conduct herself, and yet she had somehow managed to preserve her virginity. Nonetheless, her low level of emotional maturity often led to putting herself into compromising situations, not to mention the morally chaotic excuses she used to justify her own behavior. She stopped attending our sessions without any real change in her behavior, and I often wonder how she’s doing now. One thing nearly all of these cases had in common is that their fathers are not providing the protection needed.

"Isn’t our daughter cute…isn’t she popular…she’s dating now!" parents proudly proclaim. What the above girls really needed were protective fathers to help ward off unwanted physical advances honeyed with deceptive talk of love and marriage.

But it’s not just young women who are heartbroken. I have heard from young men too who have no idea about how to go about courting a young woman toward marriage. If a teenage boy shows interest in treating girls properly, with respect and gentility he is made fun of mercilessly. One particular young man comes to mind who, when his last relationship ended, was crushed. He had wanted to marry her, but he really had no idea how to do anything but date and so avoided the topic of marriage. The relationship ended with the young man feeling empty, depressed and confused. Our young men do not know how to initiate commitment, or pursue a woman toward marriage. The cultural message is that this is not a quality valued in a man anymore.

Some may object and say that dating does have a purpose, citing the definition I gave earlier (getting to know each other, etc.). But what does this getting to know each other ever lead to? How long does it actually take to "get to know each other," and if you finally do reach the level of "knowing each other," what then? Usually this aimlessness leads to the dating couple becoming lovers, and many times bringing an unwanted child into the world. Or acting as if they didn’t know sex was procreative and killing the poor baby, calling this the merciful thing to do as we have now deemed the greater tragedy a living child who is unwanted. I hear complaints about the shame and annoyance of unwanted pregnancy without any attempt to address the true cause: irresponsible, unchaste behavior and no boundaries to how men and women ought to be relating to each other. Dating provides no structure for male and female relationships, and our endorsement of this kind of coupling is only enabling the very social ills we complain about.

The above examples lead me to my second problem with dating. Where are the parents? With regard to the college campuses, the answer is easy: nowhere to be found. Year after year parents send their youths off to get an education with no authority figures in sight to bring some kind of restraint to their sons and daughters. In an effort made by our parents to destroy convention another convention has arisen to fill the void – dating, instead of courtship. Dating views each possible eligible (and many times ineligible) person as a mate – not for life, but for right now. I’ve heard it said, "I’m looking for Mr. Right," but this is passé. I have actually heard women say, "I’m looking for Mr. Right now." I’m not fooled. I saw these same girls crying and depressed about being dumped after a one-night-stand.

But permissiveness about dating starts long before college, in junior high and high school. I was amazed at the number of freshman girls who were still virgins in college since at my own high school the talk in the girls’ bathroom indicated that the sexual revolution was alive and well. Any girls who claimed chastity were promptly deemed prude as if they were lepers. So…where are the parents? Well, they are allowing their sons and daughters to date at ages 12 and 14. If the parents are really "uncool" they make the teen wait until age 16. But wait for what? What does age have to do with it if the parents will provide no guidance, no purpose, or responsibility? It’s simply not enough to hear it at their church youth groups from a professional counselor. So off these kids go without parental protection to embark on "getting to know each other," "being in a relationship."

But the real problem with all of this purposelessness and lack of parental control is the false perception of human nature that is the driving forces behind it. Human beings need constraints to guide our behavior. As it is now, we call our weaknesses strengths. We praise our lack of self-control and restraint and call ourselves "liberated." We talk about the innate goodness of mankind and then fail to make good on our promises. "I promise I’ll love you if you’ll just sleep with me." We elevate predatory sexual behavior calling it "playing the field" and say we are following our animal instincts. I have yet to see an animal mate out of anything but an instinctual drive to procreate. As it is, we have sunk lower than the animals since we don’t even want to discuss that sex is procreative anymore. This is dating. "For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools…."(Romans 1: 21-22)

If I have made any kind of case against our current dating practices, I know that was the easy part. The solution is not necessarily obvious, and our current cultural atmosphere simply does not provide any support for a return to old courtship practices. In the past, these practices were the backbone of any community since it was mostly through courtship that new families were begun to become productive members of a community. This simply is not the norm anymore. But, there have been a few of us, disheartened by current practices that have stopped dating altogether in exchange for abstinence, and courtship, and those that are interested in doing so. Just this past weekend, for the second Sunday in a row, I had a teen girl approach me and express a desire to meet with me and talk about alternatives to dating. Some of my friends have begun to forsake the dating scene for a more respectful and less predatory way of interacting with the opposite sex, and are the happier for it. While the effects of the sexual revolution have been devastating, I am seeing a flicker inside the hearts of many youths that indicate they are beginning to desire something more, something deeper, which is a real cause for hope and rejoicing.

I began this article by saying I recently married after a 4-month courtship. This was both a bewildering and exciting experience for Stephen and me as we grappled with the resurrection of a ritual that has long been dead. Leon and Amy Kass define courtship as "to woo with a view toward marriage." I believe our courtship was a success. We avoided the purposelessness of dating by setting boundaries on our time together and made it known that marriage was the overall goal, whether it would be to each other or someone else. We made sure our actions protected each other from the embarrassment and awkwardness of getting too emotionally involved too fast by each having the accountability of our parents and elders in our life. No talk of marriage was made until an actual proposal was given, and there was no kissing until the ring was on my finger, (how exciting that night was!!). We remained physically chaste until our wedding night. I am so thankful that our courtship was a wonderful and memorable process that I will want to share with our children some day, and without all of the embarrassing mishaps and broken promises that a lack of structure and purpose brings.

While I cannot, at this time, give a concrete and historical dissertation on courtship, I can recommend several books that I have read and two that I am currently reading on the subject. Starting with the ones I have read:

Passion and Purity, Quest for Love – both by author Elisabeth Elliot. The first book deals with her own courtship experience with her late husband Jim Elliot, and the latter focuses more on general courtship practices and answers specific questions for how to proceed in our current atmosphere.

I Kissed Dating Goodbye written by Joshua Harris. This is a great book for young adults interested in learning how to pull back from dating.

I am currently reading: Wing to Wing, Oar to Oar written by Amy Kass and Leon Kass. This book is a historical anthology of writings on courtship. I am so excited to have been directed to it by my husband. I am nearly finished reading A Return to Modesty by Wendy Shalit, which addresses the effects on our culture of losing the virtue of modesty, a key aspect of historical courtship.

So, go ahead…stop dating!!! Liberate yourself from the baggage that dating relationships always leave you with. Read up on courtship and enjoy the mystery and excitement that modesty and self-restraint bring.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial
KEYWORDS: christianity; courtship; dating; marriage
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To: connectthedots
In their book, Cloud and Townsend write:

We strongly disagree with the idea that all people should give up dating for several reasons."

That's called a "Straw Man Fallacy." That kind of fallacy is when you misrepresent your opponent in such a way that it's simple to knock down their argument. The thing is, Joshua Harris' books never say what Cloud and Townsend say is says.

Harris's point is exactly mine -- that singles don't need to buy into the North American concept of dating; there are other options. And perhaps because "dating" has become such a connotated word, so synonymous with serial relationships that likely end in a break-up, Harris has offered a different word. Along with that word he's offered a fresh (or maybe old/quaint/traditional) concept of relationship, with good examples of that concept worked out.

But again, Harris never says that all dating is wrong, and that if you date, you're sinning. In fact, he specifically says that's *not* what he's saying....

"Straw Man" is one of the more common types of fallacy....

101 posted on 06/19/2003 12:27:17 PM PDT by Theo
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To: Korth
She's 100% right. I dated, and it was miserable. When I met my wife, her family believed in courtship, where I would spend time with my wife and her family at first. After a period of time, when it was obvious we had fallen in love, we went outside of the home on "dates" (for lack of better word) and were engaged and married shortly thereafter.

Dating was something invented by the lower classes, as they did not have parlors for visitations like the rich people did. Has caused nothing but severe emotional distress for our nation's youth. Not surprised at all by the illegitimacy and divorce rates once I understood this basic evil.

102 posted on 06/19/2003 12:36:12 PM PDT by GreatOne (You will bow down before me, Son of Jor-el!)
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To: ohioWfan
I courted my wife for a year, things were great. Good family, fairy tale wedding... We had to be apart for 6 month while I was in the Army. I came home and she told me not to bother moving in. Divorced me and took half my stuff. Never gave a reason--Probably some other guy.

Not losing hope, I tried again 4 years later.

Courted her for a year, nice family, church-going girl, Godly. Things were like a fairy tale for two years. All at once--like in a month--She starts acting weird: bad friends, staying out late, compulsive spending. She's diagnosed with Manic-Depressive Disorder, won't take her pills, stops going to church, ruins my credit, my friends don't like to come around because they told me they can't stand to see how she treats me.

With the help of Prayers and God, I stuck this out 4 more years.

We get in an argument about her spending and staying out for nights. She calls the cops and claims I'm beating her (I wasn't). Cops interview both of us and see she is whacko and advise me to 'stay lost for a while'. As she has spent my paycheck, I take a bedroll and sleep on the mesa for a few nights.

She is now shacked up with some other guy and trying to take half of my stuff.

With the first wife, maybe she swindled me in and I was naive. With the second one, no one could have predicted it.

All I know is: I will never give another person the power to use the courts and cops to destroy me just because they feel like it.

I will never do it again. Nor do I plan on being celibate. I'm looking forward to dating and fornicating like a rutting animal.

Marriage is crap. 'Courting' is crap. The laws are designed to ruin men's lives.

103 posted on 06/19/2003 12:45:31 PM PDT by Cogadh na Sith (The Guns of Brixton)
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To: Paul C. Jesup
What can I say? I'm Dark Lord of the Sith or some crap like that.
104 posted on 06/19/2003 12:45:31 PM PDT by Chancellor Palpatine (woke up this morning, got a blue moon in my eye.......)
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To: Zavien Doombringer
Cool!
105 posted on 06/19/2003 12:58:37 PM PDT by Theo
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To: MineralMan
She didn't ask them.

They came to her, at least that is the way it appears to me when she says the girls confided in her about things.
106 posted on 06/19/2003 12:59:37 PM PDT by rwfromkansas ("There is dust enough on some of your Bibles to write 'damnation' with your fingers." C.H. Spurgeon)
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To: MineralMan
She said she offered to "answer any questions they might have."

Then she goes on to say: "One by one these girls came to me, after only a few months at college, wrestling with the desire of their new college boyfriends to be physical with them."

They came to her. Where do you get the idea that she went around taking some virginity survey???

An RA is to be supportive. That is what she was.

If an RA did go around asking people about their virginity status, then that is a problem and I would be leery of such a person......they appear to have something wrong with them. But, it does not look like this woman did that. The girls came to her with the info.
107 posted on 06/19/2003 1:02:19 PM PDT by rwfromkansas ("There is dust enough on some of your Bibles to write 'damnation' with your fingers." C.H. Spurgeon)
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To: chookter
I am sorry for your experience, and I understand how hurt you must be. (Well, no, I don't, but I can imagine).

Just don't hurt yourself even more by 'dating and fornicating'......it's more dangerous these days than it has ever been.

A good marriage.......one that is NOT crap.....requires two people to work at it, and you, unfortunately were the only one doing it in both cases.

May God bless you and heal your deep wounds, as you try to put your life back together.

108 posted on 06/19/2003 1:03:03 PM PDT by ohioWfan (BUSH 2004!!!! Leadership, Integrity, Morality)
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To: y2k_free_radical
Reversing the clock back to the way male-female relationships were for the vast majority of time...

Let's see now: you knock a girl up at the age of fifteen, marry, and have twelve children as fast you can in hope that three of them will not die of yellow fever. Then you die of overwork at age forty after a life of honest toil

Wasn't life great in the good old days?

109 posted on 06/19/2003 1:12:54 PM PDT by BlazingArizona
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To: Theo
Awesome.

I am into dating myself and am a conservative Christian.

But I have begun to think about several dating "issues" especially related to me.

1. Due to my shyness, dating is not a good way to get to know someone. I went on a date with a girl earlier this year. It was a disaster because she was shy, too. We then went out and just hung out as friends and had a blast. It was fun. Recently, before college let out for the summer, she and another guy were getting pretty close....they aren't dating or anything, but they were really really close....pretty darn close to dating. I was happy for her and he is a great guy and a friend of mine...one of the most caring guys I know on campus. But, he is very outgoing and able to talk to people; he isn't shy. She needs someone who isn't shy to allow her to open up when it comes to non-friendship relationships. Anyway, my shyness really limits my ability to have anything except friendship.

Therefore, instead of just asking a girl out, it seems perhaps more logical to go at least more along the lines of the courtship approach (not 100% following the "courtship rules", as I would not have a problem with holding hands or SOME kissing.....a little....before asking for marriage if that would be the end of the courtship). But, I do believe that the way dating is set up is destructive. Thus, I should become friends with a girl and be pretty good friends, know her pretty well. Then, if I think there may be something there, ask her to go on a date etc. and see how it proceeds. At least in this situation, there is no heartbreak like in the normal dating relationship and we would still be friends after.

I do see a lot of benefit in courtship, though I am not sure if I am ready to go 100% courtship......but perhaps I should alter my behavior a bit to go more in line with that due to the benefits and how it would help my shyness problem since we would already know eachother well and what to talk about.
110 posted on 06/19/2003 1:14:26 PM PDT by rwfromkansas ("There is dust enough on some of your Bibles to write 'damnation' with your fingers." C.H. Spurgeon)
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To: Norse
"If it feels good, do it."

Quite the Roman, are we?
111 posted on 06/19/2003 1:17:26 PM PDT by rwfromkansas ("There is dust enough on some of your Bibles to write 'damnation' with your fingers." C.H. Spurgeon)
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To: ohioWfan; Chancellor Palpatine
Just don't hurt yourself even more by 'dating and fornicating'......it's more dangerous these days than it has ever been.

So is marriage. It's easier to 'be careful' with the 'dating and fornicating' because at least the risks are known....

A good marriage.......one that is NOT crap.....requires two people to work at it, and you, unfortunately were the only one doing it in both cases.

Because women are rewarded now for not 'working at it'. They don't have to worry--they either do nothing, or crap on the poor guy and he either takes it, goes to jail and loses his house, kids, retirement and freedom or he just walks away and loses his house, kids, retirement and self-worth.

On the opposite, if I 'shack up', the woman has to work harder for it and actually try to make it work because my state doesn't recognize 'common-law marriage'.

The married woman need not try and is rewarded by the state and by society for being 'her own woman', The shack-up honey is either nice and tries to 'make it work' or leaves with nothing.

Tell me which makes more sense for me as a man? I cannot believe that God would want me to enslave my soul to the base passions and madness of another. Satan rewards madness and idolatry, not God.

State sanctioned marriage can no longer be a Godly institution because the State enforces an 'uneven yoke' on the couple.

Tell me, were Mary and Joseph married by a Roman Prelate under Roman polytheistic law, or were they married in the sight of God?

I'll never give a person the power to use the courts and cops to destroy me because they want to. Tell your sons to repeat that. It should be the mantra on the lips of every man.

112 posted on 06/19/2003 1:19:55 PM PDT by Cogadh na Sith (The Guns of Brixton)
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To: tortoise
VERY INTERESTING
113 posted on 06/19/2003 1:28:29 PM PDT by y2k_free_radical (i)
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To: hobbes1
BRILLIANT QUIP
114 posted on 06/19/2003 1:30:18 PM PDT by y2k_free_radical (i)
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To: opus86
That does not fit with the courtship of another poster....the parents were not invovled or at least he didn't mention that. Then again he said they called that "courting," so that may have just been there name for it.

I prefer his method over the "getting permission from the parents" deal to even see his daughter. Excuse me, but I don't think a father of a college girl has the right to tell me I can't see her if I am interested in her. I would respect his opinion on marriage itself, however, though it also would not be the ultimate deciding factor.

I see a lot of problems with the current dating scene, but do not like your definition of courting. I think it gives parents too much control. Now, if someone is in HS still, a parent should exercise such control.
115 posted on 06/19/2003 1:30:36 PM PDT by rwfromkansas ("There is dust enough on some of your Bibles to write 'damnation' with your fingers." C.H. Spurgeon)
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To: Chancellor Palpatine
ROTFLMAO
116 posted on 06/19/2003 1:31:17 PM PDT by y2k_free_radical (i)
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To: Chancellor Palpatine
They are a rocking band, aren't they?

I usually listen to Contemporary Christian stuff, but enjoy some of their songs. It rocks.
117 posted on 06/19/2003 1:37:41 PM PDT by rwfromkansas ("There is dust enough on some of your Bibles to write 'damnation' with your fingers." C.H. Spurgeon)
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To: rwfromkansas
My X-es parents were involved in the courtship and are supportive of me and feel terrible about how their daughter has treated me. They are trying to talk her out of taking half my stuff and my retirement.

It holds no weight in the eyes of the law. I say date and fornicate and keep your retirement guys!

118 posted on 06/19/2003 1:41:44 PM PDT by Cogadh na Sith (The Guns of Brixton)
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To: chookter
I'm looking forward to dating and fornicating like a rutting animal.

Well put. My marriage was over 15 years ago after my 25-year-old wife had a summertime fling with my older brother. Walked in one afternoon and they were in my bed. I stuck around for the kid’s sake. My youngest is 17 now. We are divorcing now, and she wants way more than half my stuff. I wish she would just take all her self-help books and crap and get the he11 out of my life.

At this point I am looking for a gal who is not fat, and smells right where it counts (bonus points if she makes a lot of money and isn’t around very much). I will date until I find her. I am 41, and am very glad I had my kids when I was young (I don’t think I have ever had a cross word with either of my boys, ever). I don’t know what the future holds, but I intend on having fun finding out.

119 posted on 06/19/2003 1:42:50 PM PDT by FoxPro
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To: Chancellor Palpatine
The lyrics are accurate in many cases also.

I don't give a crap about a girl if all she wants is a sugardaddy quite frankly.

If she likes me, not money, then she is someone deserving respect.
120 posted on 06/19/2003 1:44:00 PM PDT by rwfromkansas ("There is dust enough on some of your Bibles to write 'damnation' with your fingers." C.H. Spurgeon)
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To: dead
Well, this was a private college.

Resident Assistants, at least at my private college, are there for advice, solving roommate issues, making sure the hall runs smoothly, etc.

121 posted on 06/19/2003 1:45:32 PM PDT by rwfromkansas ("There is dust enough on some of your Bibles to write 'damnation' with your fingers." C.H. Spurgeon)
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To: chookter
I have a similar experience to you. You can't change other
people but you can find out what it is about you that is
attracted to people like that....even if there are no visible signs...You may be drawn to their "shadow"..some unhealthy part of yourself that is attracted to the unhealthy. Since you have been the only "constant" in the situation, it's time to look at that. I went to counseling to try and prevent from being attracted to unhealthy people. I learned a lot about myself and also was able to see red flags immediately versus being ignorant and naive. Naivite is cute when you are 5 but it's very ugly when you are a grown adult and trying to have
discernment in dating and marriage. Find everything out about yourself and your past and soon the hidden messages of those you meet will be revealed in that as well. It works.
122 posted on 06/19/2003 1:46:48 PM PDT by sonserae
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To: FoxPro
I'm 35. I was laid-off early in my 2nd marriage and did the responsible thing and waited to have kids. She stood by me. 2 years later, we couldn't have kids because she was on so many mood drugs that it wasn't safe. I stood by her...

Until she called the cops on me and shacked up with someone else. Her mom even tells me: "I'm so sorry, I don't know what happened to my girl..."

123 posted on 06/19/2003 1:49:58 PM PDT by Cogadh na Sith (The Guns of Brixton)
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To: GreatOne
Dating was something invented by the lower classes, as they did not have parlors for visitations like the rich people did.

"Invented"? Yeah. Ok. That's one utterly oversimplified way of mischaracterizing numerous influences and sociological phenomena that effected it.

Has caused nothing but severe emotional distress for our nation's youth. Not surprised at all by the illegitimacy and divorce rates once I understood this basic evil.

Perhaps the Victorians had it right when they understood that the lower classes should mind and try to emulate their 'betters"?

124 posted on 06/19/2003 1:50:35 PM PDT by Pahuanui (when A Foolish Man Hears The tao, He Laughs Out Loud.)
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To: Paul C. Jesup
So you don't think guys drop girls and pursue others?

Come on.

Yes, the article could have focuses on girls who leave guys to get other sugardaddies with more money etc., but I am not offended in the slightest by your perceived "feminist" slant in the article. I don't think that is her intent.
125 posted on 06/19/2003 1:50:58 PM PDT by rwfromkansas ("There is dust enough on some of your Bibles to write 'damnation' with your fingers." C.H. Spurgeon)
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To: sonserae
You can't change other people but you can find out what it is about you that is attracted to people like that....even if there are no visible signs...You may be drawn to their "shadow"..some unhealthy part of yourself that is attracted to the unhealthy.

Yeah, that's my point--they were both nice looking, conservative, Godly women from good families. Tell me Karnak, what features shall I look for now? Homely crack whores?

I don't buy that dopey new-age crap. 'Sides, how do you account for mental illness in the case of the second?

126 posted on 06/19/2003 1:53:11 PM PDT by Cogadh na Sith (The Guns of Brixton)
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To: chookter
My sons are Christians. They are following God's laws by their own choice.....and those laws, made out of God's love for His children, require marriage......legal marriage......for a couple to have sex.

I'm sorry that your experience has embittered you......and I'm not surprised that it has. What was done to you stinks, and the women you married will be held accountable before a Holy God for what they did to you.

But that doesn't change the fact that those laws are there, and if one is to be obedient to the Lord, there is to be no sex outside of marriage. Period.

127 posted on 06/19/2003 1:54:18 PM PDT by ohioWfan (BUSH 2004!!!! Leadership, Integrity, Morality)
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To: chookter
I'm really sorry...but when you do meet that great girl who has the morals/ethics/character you do, you will appreciate her all the more. If you lower your standards, you will attract lower standards. Keep your standards high, get emotionally healthy and you will attract the same. You will attract what you project.
128 posted on 06/19/2003 1:54:53 PM PDT by sonserae
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To: ohioWfan
and those laws, made out of God's love for His children, require marriage......legal marriage......for a couple to have sex.

And God's legal marriage requires that Notary Public stamp on a document that allows me to be subjected to the man-hating, liberal, un-holy, un-Godly state legislature that allows abortion and had a Shaman (no kidding) bless their proceedings?

Something isn't right here....

129 posted on 06/19/2003 1:59:05 PM PDT by Cogadh na Sith (The Guns of Brixton)
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To: rwfromkansas
Just to clarify, it isn't my definition. It's merely a definition/method I heard. The whole parental permission thing is a big vague to me, and I'm not sure how it would work with today's 18+ age group.

To me courting isn't one single formula, it's the approach of taking things slowly, holding off on the physical affection, accepting guidance from people who've been there, being responsible. What can be damaging about "dating" (as it is generally accepted today) is when someone jumps into a romance with every person they date, a la "Beverly Hills 90210".

I would add that if my girlfriend's father (presumeably someone in good relationship with her) told me he didn't like me seeing his daughter, I'm outta there. To me it would not be worth the trouble.
130 posted on 06/19/2003 2:01:43 PM PDT by opus86
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To: chookter
There are a lot of "Godly Christians" who give the illusion
of being okay...but they are posers putting on an act giving
the impression to others that they have no problems. What happens is that they finally "BREAK" because this whole time they weren't allowing themselves to be "human"...We as Christians must not have our churches be a place where we have to be "perfect" to attend. We need it to be a place where we are "REAL" and admit to our weaknesses, emotions and thoughts and openly help each other to deal with them in a healthy way. You need to find a Christian woman that is REAL.
131 posted on 06/19/2003 2:01:53 PM PDT by sonserae
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To: ohioWfan
But that doesn't change the fact that those laws are there, and if one is to be obedient to the Lord, there is to be no sex outside of marriage. Period.

and to be a 'marriage', I have to have a document ratified by an official of a government that threw God out of the schools and encourages abortions? Something is not adding up.

What if the notary public is a lesbian wiccan, do I still have to have her stamp to have God recognize my 'marriage'?

132 posted on 06/19/2003 2:02:24 PM PDT by Cogadh na Sith (The Guns of Brixton)
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To: chookter
God requires that we follow the laws of the land, unless they oppose HIS laws.

It doesn't matter if your feelings are hurt and you're mad......even if you have a right to be hurt and mad. It doesn't change the truth.

The only sex in accordance with God's laws is between a man and a woman in marriage.

The shaman and the abortion are irrelevant to the discussion.

133 posted on 06/19/2003 2:02:35 PM PDT by ohioWfan (BUSH 2004!!!! Leadership, Integrity, Morality)
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To: chookter
You're grasping chookter. It looks like any meaningful discussion is over.
134 posted on 06/19/2003 2:03:43 PM PDT by ohioWfan (BUSH 2004!!!! Leadership, Integrity, Morality)
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To: Norse
Might as well have fun while you're young.

I agree. Chastity is overrated. I'd rather date someone who knows what the hell she's doing under the sheets than a bleeder who cries after sex.

135 posted on 06/19/2003 2:04:36 PM PDT by Drew68
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To: ohioWfan
God requires that we follow the laws of the land, unless they oppose HIS laws.

It is my fervent belief as a Christian that the secular laws governing Marriage do oppose HIS laws. Look into it and you will agree as well.

The only sex in accordance with God's laws is between a man and a woman in marriage.

What does that have to do with getting a license stamped by the lesbian wiccan down at the courthouse?

136 posted on 06/19/2003 2:06:16 PM PDT by Cogadh na Sith (The Guns of Brixton)
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To: hobbes1
I am kind of ashamed to admit it, because I think masturbation is a sin (please nobody throw stones at me...lol), but gosh that graphic cracks me up. I just see that kitten trying to "escape" the monsters and I just have to chuckle.
137 posted on 06/19/2003 2:07:23 PM PDT by rwfromkansas ("There is dust enough on some of your Bibles to write 'damnation' with your fingers." C.H. Spurgeon)
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To: dead
I have never ever ever heard of a college student who sought out their Resident Advisor for help with sexual decisions. I thought they were just there to sneak beer past.

Or ideally, to drink beer with.

138 posted on 06/19/2003 2:07:48 PM PDT by NittanyLion
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To: ohioWfan
It looks like any meaningful discussion is over.

Yeah, just like my two marriages, my belief in Marriage, my retirement, my trust in women and my trust in the 'fairness of the law'.

It hasn't changed my belief in God or the justness of his laws.

139 posted on 06/19/2003 2:08:33 PM PDT by Cogadh na Sith (The Guns of Brixton)
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To: Pahuanui
I apologize for not having the time to write a 5 page treatise for you to "prove" my "oversimplification". Surely you have some to demonstrate how I am "mischaracterizing numerous influences and socialogical phenomena", and what those influences and phenomena are (or, at the very least, where I read about it).

Regards.

140 posted on 06/19/2003 2:12:26 PM PDT by GreatOne (You will bow down before me, Son of Jor-el!)
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To: chookter
If you believe in God and His justness, can you then deny His call to holiness in sexual matters?
141 posted on 06/19/2003 2:16:40 PM PDT by opus86
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To: Korth
bttt
142 posted on 06/19/2003 2:23:03 PM PDT by 4Godsoloved..Hegave
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To: opus86
If you believe in God and His justness, can you then deny His call to holiness in sexual matters?

I do not.

I deny the unholy call of the local government in marriage matters.

I believe we are not far from seeing the state marriage laws promoting divorce in most states in the same light that we see the laws promoting abortion.

Can a marriage be Godly without the stamp of approval of the unGodly administrators who are destroying it?

That is the real question.

Is sex really fornication in the eyes of the Lord until the lesbian wiccan court clerk stamps my license?

Weird....

143 posted on 06/19/2003 2:23:36 PM PDT by Cogadh na Sith (The Guns of Brixton)
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To: Chancellor Palpatine
(sarcasm) Then shouldn't you be calling yourself Emperor.
144 posted on 06/19/2003 2:24:32 PM PDT by Paul C. Jesup
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To: rwfromkansas
Check out post 85 on this thread.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/931885/posts?page=85#85

145 posted on 06/19/2003 2:25:54 PM PDT by Paul C. Jesup
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To: chookter
I really don't think the character, or lack thereof, of the person stamping the license has anything to do with anything, any more than if a lesbian wiccan is your checkout girl at the grocery store.

You don't evade the law and take the groceries without paying the wiccan for them any more than you evade the law by not being legally married because a wiccan stamps the license.

I have the gut feeling that you know your argument is absurd.......especially if your claim to still believe in God.

Good rule of thumb......never let your emotions make moral decisions. Use your head.

146 posted on 06/19/2003 2:29:42 PM PDT by ohioWfan (BUSH 2004!!!! Leadership, Integrity, Morality)
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To: chookter
You’re cracking me up dude. Please continue, you have almost made my day.

get emotionally healthy
Hey "chookter" can you please tell me what the he11 this means?

I figured out that for all the money I made in the last 20 years I could have stayed single and had at least a $500 hooker every week and still have a great lifestyle. But then I wouldn’t have these wonderful kids. Ah, the mysteries of life, I love and enjoy encountering each and every one of them.

147 posted on 06/19/2003 2:31:16 PM PDT by FoxPro
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To: ohioWfan
I'll not get married again. Not a priest so I sure ain't gonna remain celibate at 35 w/ no kids....

I'd rather sin than to allow the courts and cops to confiscate what I worked for.... for the third time. Let God judge me.

148 posted on 06/19/2003 2:34:19 PM PDT by Cogadh na Sith (The Guns of Brixton)
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To: ohioWfan
Girls are much worse today than guys are- years of growing up fatherless, womens lib,MTV and scores of magazines have turned most of them into plain old sluts.
149 posted on 06/19/2003 2:35:09 PM PDT by ffusco (Maecilius Fuscus, Governor of Longovicium , Manchester, England. 238-244 AD)
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To: chookter
How horrible man.

150 posted on 06/19/2003 2:35:22 PM PDT by rwfromkansas ("There is dust enough on some of your Bibles to write 'damnation' with your fingers." C.H. Spurgeon)
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