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Hubble snaps stunning baby pic of cosmos Galactic whirls from 12 billion years ago
http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/space/06/19/bigbang.view.reut/index.html ^ | Thursday, June 19, 2003 Posted: 2:19 PM EDT (1819 GMT)

Posted on 06/19/2003 7:54:36 PM PDT by DannyTN

New Hubble peers deep in cosmic past and future (2002)

WASHINGTON (Reuters) -- A new wide-angle view of the universe looks back to a mere billion years after the Big Bang, revealing secrets about the lives of galaxies and the black holes at their hearts, scientists reported on Thursday.

(Excerpt) Read more at cnn.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: ageofuniverse; hubble; science
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If they estimate the age of the universe is 13 billion years old, then how can they see light that is from 1 billion after the Big Bank.

Assuming that galaxy traveled away from us and we both left the big bang at the same time. Then if that light left that galaxy when that galaxy was just 1 billion years old and traveled for 12 billion years to reach us, then we must be at l2 billion light years from where that galaxy was when the light was produced. If the galaxys are going in opposite directions, then seems like our galaxy would have had to travel at almost 11/13 times the speed of light to be 12 billion light years away from where that galaxy was after it had traveled 1 billion years.

If the galaxies are going in the same direction. Then our galaxy has to be going even faster to receive the light 12 billion years later.

If the galaxies are going slow like on the order of 1/4 the speed of light, then it seems like the earliest we should be able to see is 3/4ths the age of the universe.

What am I missing?

1 posted on 06/19/2003 7:54:37 PM PDT by DannyTN
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To: DannyTN
What are you missing? Scientifically, the theory or relativity. Spiritually, a relationship with the creator.
2 posted on 06/19/2003 7:58:41 PM PDT by Blood of Tyrants (Even if the government took all your earnings, you wouldn’t be, in its eyes, a slave.)
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To: DannyTN
And if you're travelling the speed of light and turn on your headlights, what happens to the light?
3 posted on 06/19/2003 7:58:59 PM PDT by Larry Lucido
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To: DannyTN

4 posted on 06/19/2003 8:01:24 PM PDT by AntiGuv (™)
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To: Blood of Tyrants
If I remember right, the Bible does not tell how God created the earth and Heavens, it just says that he did....whats to say he didn't make a BIG bang to do it?????
5 posted on 06/19/2003 8:02:57 PM PDT by Jewels1091
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To: DannyTN
Well, it may not be as simple as the algebra problem of the two trains leaving the station at the same or opposite directions. Perhaps the direction is at an angle, say, 90 degrees. And, like you said, our calculations (you really made me think!) assume a constant velocity, which is probably not true.
6 posted on 06/19/2003 8:03:26 PM PDT by jammer
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To: DannyTN
New Math :-?

Here's a blurb from the Hubble Site as well, with links to images. Thanks for the post.

Hubble Goes 'Deep' to Sample Young Galaxies

NASA's Hubble Space Telescope reached back to nearly the beginning of time to sample thousands of infant galaxies. This image, taken with Hubble's Advanced Camera for Surveys, shows several thousand galaxies, many of which appear to be interacting or in the process of forming. Some of these galaxies existed when the cosmos was less than about 2 billion years old. The foreground galaxies, however, are much closer to Earth. Two of them [the white, elongated galaxies, left of center] appear to be colliding.

This image represents less than one-tenth of the entire field surveyed by Hubble. The full field, consisting of about 25,000 galaxies, is part of a larger survey called the Great Observatories Origins Deep Survey (GOODS), the most ambitious study of the early universe yet undertaken with the Hubble telescope. This survey targeted two representative spots in the sky - one in the Northern Hemisphere and the other in the Southern Hemisphere. This image represents the southern field, located in the constellation Fornax. The entire GOODS survey reveals roughly 50,000 galaxies. Astronomers have identified more than 2,000 of them as infant galaxies, observed when the universe was less than about 2 billion years old.

Because infant galaxies are very faint and very rare, astronomers are using Hubble to search for them over a relatively wide swath of sky. In fact, the new observations cover about 60 times the area of the original Hubble Deep Field Observations, obtained in 1995. Astronomers also are using the Chandra X-ray Observatory to search the GOODS fields for the earliest black holes in the universe. The Space Infrared Telescope Facility (SIRTF) will sample these same fields soon after it is launched in August 2003.

By combining light from all three of NASA's great observatories with data from ground-based telescopes, astronomers hope to build a coherent picture of galaxy evolution.

This image of the southern field was assembled from observations taken between July 2002 and February 2003.

The science team consists of M. Giavalisco (STScI), A. Barger (U. Wisconsin, Madison), N. Brandt (PSU), S. Casertano (STScI), C. Cesarsky (ESO), C. Conselice (Caltech), L. Cowie (U. Hawaii) S. Cristiani (Osservatorio Astronomico Trieste), T. Dahlen (STScI), D. de Mello (JHU), M. Dickinson (STScI), S.M. Fall (STScI), C. Fassnacht (STScI), H.C. Ferguson (STScI), R. Fosbury (ST-ECF), A. Fruchter (STScI), J. Gardner (GSFC), G. Garmire (PSU), N. Grogin (STScI), R. Hook (ST-ECF), R. Idzi (JHU), A. Koekemoer (STScI), C. Kretchmer (JHU), Kyoungsoo Lee (JHU), B. Leibundgut (ESO), M. Livio (STScI), R. Lucas (STScI), P. Madau (UC Santa Cruz), B. Mobasher (STScI), L. Moustakas (STScI), C. Papovich (U. Arizona), S. Ravindranath (STScI), A. Renzini (ESO), M. Richardson (STScI), A. Riess (STScI), Piero Rosati (ESO), H. Spinrad (UC Berkeley), E. Schreier (STScI), D. Stern (JPL/Caltech), M. Stiavelli (STScI), M. Urry (Yale Univ.), and R. Williams (STScI). Also on the team are Y. Park (JHU), A. Hornschemeier (JHU), R. Somerville (STScI), S. Jogee (STScI), D. Alexander (PSU), F. Bauer (PSU), E. Chatzichristou (Yale Univ.), B. Simmons (Yale Univ.), S. Cristiani (Osservatorio Astronomico Trieste), E. Daddi (ESO), M. Nonino (Osservatorio Astronomico Trieste), and J. Lotz (UCSC).

7 posted on 06/19/2003 8:03:55 PM PDT by NormsRevenge (Semper Fi..Support FRee Republic... http://www.drafttom.com ... Tom McClintock for Gub in the Recall)
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To: DannyTN

Larger version LINK  Absolutely remarkable!

8 posted on 06/19/2003 8:05:02 PM PDT by DoughtyOne
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To: Blood of Tyrants
"What are you missing? Scientifically, the theory or relativity. Spiritually, a relationship with the creator. "

I have a relationship with the Creator. And I don't believe the universe is 13 billion years old. Although I'm not absolutely positive that it's not.

So maybe I'm missing theory of relativity.

9 posted on 06/19/2003 8:05:14 PM PDT by DannyTN (Note left on my door by a pack of neighborhood dogs.)
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To: DoughtyOne
Ooo! Now that one's pretty..
10 posted on 06/19/2003 8:06:41 PM PDT by AntiGuv (™)
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Comment #11 Removed by Moderator

To: Larry Lucido
"And if you're travelling the speed of light and turn on your headlights, what happens to the light? "

I don't know, the fastest I've been is 150mph. Light didn't seem much different. But the dotted lines on the road did blurr together.

12 posted on 06/19/2003 8:07:48 PM PDT by DannyTN (Note left on my door by a pack of neighborhood dogs.)
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To: DannyTN
Bookmark
13 posted on 06/19/2003 8:08:30 PM PDT by lakey
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To: Larry Lucido
You cannot travel at the speed of light. However, no matter how fast an object travels light that it emits will always travel at the same speed, ~300000 kilometers/second.
14 posted on 06/19/2003 8:15:58 PM PDT by The Shootist
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To: DoughtyOne
Doughty isn't kidding, this is a MIST SEE !

Larger version LINK  Absolutely remarkable!

15 posted on 06/19/2003 8:16:20 PM PDT by ChadGore (Piss off a liberal: Hire Someone.)
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To: Larry Lucido
And if you're travelling the speed of light and turn on your headlights, what happens to the light?

If you are on a plane travelling at 300 miles per hour and you look over and see a fly going by in the cabin. how fast is the fly going?????

16 posted on 06/19/2003 8:17:23 PM PDT by org.whodat
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To: DannyTN
"Live long and prosper!"
17 posted on 06/19/2003 8:19:02 PM PDT by lilylangtree
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To: Jewels1091
Sure it does. First he created the light. Where was the light that he created? Everywhere! Then he seperated the light from the dark and made the first day. The light didn't need 12 billion years to get here because it already was here.
18 posted on 06/19/2003 8:19:37 PM PDT by Blood of Tyrants (Even if the government took all your earnings, you wouldn’t be, in its eyes, a slave.)
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GOODS: The Great Observatories Origins Deep Survey

GOODS aims to unite extremely deep observations from NASA's Great Observatories, SIRTF, Hubble, and Chandra, ESA's XMM-Newton, and from the most powerful ground-based facilities, to survey the distant universe to the faintest flux limits across the broadest range of wavelengths.

GOODS incorporates a SIRTF Legacy Program to carry out the deepest observations with that facility at 3.6 to 24 microns, an HST Treasury Program using the new Advanced Camera for Surveys to obtain deep, high angular resolution imaging at optical wavelengths, and the deepest X-ray observations with Chandra and XMM-Newton.

GOODS will survey a total of roughly 320 square arcminutes in two fields centered on the Hubble Deep Field North and the Chandra Deep Field South.

The space-based observations will be complemented by ground-based imaging and spectroscopy, including an extensive commitment of ESO and NOAO observing time.

19 posted on 06/19/2003 8:20:37 PM PDT by NormsRevenge (Semper Fi..Support FRee Republic... http://www.drafttom.com ... Tom McClintock for Gub in the Recall)
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To: The Shootist; Larry Lucido; DannyTN
186,000 miles a second. It's not just a good idea, it's the law.
20 posted on 06/19/2003 8:24:13 PM PDT by WSGilcrest (R)
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To: DoughtyOne
Thanks for that link. That really big version just seems to go on forever. It reminds me of Yacko's universe...


YAKKO'S UNIVERSE (Episode 3)
Music and lyrics by Randy Rogel.


Everybody lives on a street in a city
Or a village or a town for what it's worth.
And they're all inside a country which is part of a continent
That sits upon a planet known as Earth.
And the Earth is a ball full of oceans and some mountains
Which is out there spinning silently in space.
And living on that Earth are the plants and the animals
And also the entire human race.

It's a great big universe
And we're all really puny
We're just tiny little specks
About the size of Mickey Rooney.
It's big and black and inky
And we are small and dinky
It's a big universe and we're not.

And we're part of a vast interplanetary system
Stretching seven hundred billion miles long.
With nine planets and a sun; we think the Earth's the only one
That has life on it, although we could be wrong.
Across the interstellar voids are a billion asteroids
Including meteors and Halley's Comet too.
And there's over fifty moons floating out there like balloons
In a panoramic trillion-mile view.

And still it's all a speck amid a hundred billion stars
In a galaxy we call the Milky Way.
It's sixty thousand trillion miles from one end to the other
And still that's just a fraction of the way.
'Cause there's a hundred billion galaxies that stretch across the sky
Filled with constellations, planets, moons and stars.
And still the universe extends to a place that never ends
Which is maybe just inside a little jar!

It's a great big universe
And we're all really puny
We're just tiny little specks
About the size of Mickey Rooney.
Though we don't know how it got here
We're an important part here
It's a big universe and it's ours!

* - In the original script, these lines were:

YW+D : You might think that you're essential
Try inconsequential
It's a small world after all!

21 posted on 06/19/2003 8:26:40 PM PDT by DannyTN (Note left on my door by a pack of neighborhood dogs.)
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To: DannyTN; ChadGore
Thanks guys. Very cool.
22 posted on 06/19/2003 8:29:21 PM PDT by DoughtyOne
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To: AntiGuv
Hey, how'd I miss you? Thanks.
23 posted on 06/19/2003 8:30:24 PM PDT by DoughtyOne
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To: DannyTN
Please pardon the misconception. According to the theory of relativity, light does not behave the same as other things. For example if you were traveling at 0.5 c (c = speed of light) in a spaceship and shined a flashlight ahead of the ship, the speed of the beam of light would not be 1.5 c and conversely if you shined it behind the ship, the speed of the beam would not be 0.5 c in the other direction. It would simply be c. Confused yet?

But of course since God created the theory of relativity, he can mess with the rules just to keep people who think they are so smart looking like dufusses (dufi?).
24 posted on 06/19/2003 8:32:51 PM PDT by Blood of Tyrants (Even if the government took all your earnings, you wouldn’t be, in its eyes, a slave.)
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To: DannyTN
bttt
25 posted on 06/19/2003 8:36:00 PM PDT by stainlessbanner
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To: Blood of Tyrants
Confused yet?

No, it just means that how ever fast you are traveling, light from you, will travel 186,000 miles a second faster than you are going. I think.
26 posted on 06/19/2003 8:36:43 PM PDT by Licensed-To-Carry (Faster Horses, Older Whiskey, Younger Women, More Money)
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To: DoughtyOne
WOW!!
27 posted on 06/19/2003 8:36:43 PM PDT by Beth (Dubya fan)
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Comment #28 Removed by Moderator

To: DannyTN
A couple of points. First, you're probably assuming that 1B years after the big bang the furthest two points in space-time could be from each other is 2B light-years but the universe could have been bigger than that (e.g. inflation).

Second, a low-end estimate of the hubble constant is 50km/s/Mpc. I think that means we'd be moving about .7c relative to a 13B light-year away galaxy.

29 posted on 06/19/2003 8:43:38 PM PDT by edsheppa
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Comment #30 Removed by Moderator

To: FastCoyote
Our God is Awesome!
31 posted on 06/19/2003 8:48:03 PM PDT by eccentric
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To: Blood of Tyrants
"Confused yet? "

Well, that's the way I understood it. But then it seems like the simple train station math ought to work.

If you have the following:


32 posted on 06/19/2003 8:54:29 PM PDT by DannyTN (Note left on my door by a pack of neighborhood dogs.)
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To: DannyTN
YEC Skeptical SPOTREP
33 posted on 06/19/2003 9:49:44 PM PDT by LiteKeeper
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To: Jewels1091
I think the bible and science could work together a lot better if they could realize, The Bible says why God did and it, and science sticks to how...
Frankly, I think a lot of the arguement as to who's right is kinda silly The Bible says we came from a pile of sand in God's image, science says much the same when you break it down into simple terms, science adds a lot of steps along the way...
34 posted on 06/19/2003 10:04:39 PM PDT by McCloud-Strife
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To: Licensed-To-Carry
No, it just means that how ever fast you are traveling, light from you, will travel 186,000 miles a second faster than you are going. I think.

Nope, unlike the fly in the aircraft, both the "moving" observor, on the spaceship, and the "stationary" observor, will measure the light to be moving 186,000 miles/second (3E8 meters/second). That is both Einstiens assumption in developing the equations of special relativity, and obervationally verified. As are at least some of the predictions of SR, such as time running slower for moving objects. (observed by measuring decay times of radioactive atomic nuclei moving at near lightspeed and at rest). Also the prediction that clocks run slower deeper in a gravity well has been verfied by observation/experiment.

As "Doc Brown" might say, you have to think fourth dimensionally to understand how we can possibly look back 12 billion years into the past.

35 posted on 06/19/2003 10:21:40 PM PDT by El Gato
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To: DannyTN
The distance from the Bigbang to the earth times the speed of the earth

Ah, but there is no "distance to the Big Bang" It was everywhere, in a certain sense. Sort of like the light being everywhere as reported in Genesis. The light (or energy) of the big bang filled the entire universe as it then existed. Took a while for the universe to "cool" enough that matter could even exist. At the energy density of the early universe, only energy could exist. Your calculation are for a Newtonian universe not one where special, not to mention general, relativity exists, such as the one we live in. Even when dealing with solid objects, velocities don't add or subtract vectorially as the speeds approach that of light. If your math were correct, and we were moving away from some object at say 1/2 c, we would measure the speed of the light from that object to be 1/2 c, but we don't, we measure it to be c. (It will be rather redshifted to a lower frequency however)

36 posted on 06/19/2003 10:34:16 PM PDT by El Gato
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To: Blood of Tyrants
Sure it does. First he created the light. Where was the light that he created? Everywhere!

Which is exactly what current notions of the big bang indicate. The light filled the universe. We can even "see" it today. It's the general background radition we can measure in all directions, with an equivalent temperature of 3 degrees Kelvin (3 Celcius degrees above absolute zero) and it indeed is everywhere.

37 posted on 06/19/2003 10:37:57 PM PDT by El Gato
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To: DannyTN
What am I missing?

Mostly the fact that WE aren't moving at the speed of light, so we aren't really 12 billion light years from the point where the photons were first emitted. It didn't reach us until now because the universe is expanding, stretching the distances between the galaxies, which really screws with the travel time of those stray little light beams. Toss in the fact that the cosmic expansion isn't constant, but is accelerating, and the math to determine the travel time of our trans-universal photonic travelers gets REALLY fun. Have a peek (and this is the simple version that leaves the acceleration math out).

Despite the fact that this light took 12 billion years to reach us, the originating galaxy was probably only 4 or 5 billion light years away when it was emitted.
38 posted on 06/19/2003 10:39:17 PM PDT by Arthalion
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To: DannyTN
Danny- You can't assume that our galaxy is as old as the universe. It isn't. Frankly, I don't know how old our galaxy is, but if it were created yesterday, we could still see the light streaming by from that 12 plus billion year old galaxy, certainly long long gone by now. Also, it is the universe itself that is expanding, not a bunch of galaxies expanding into an empty volume of infinite universe.

It is more like blowing up a balloon and watching the printed pattern on the surface of the balloon expand, even though each piece of ink stays attached to its little spot of rubber. You could say that each and every galaxy has stayed in approximately the same place, yet are growiung farther apart because the universe itself is getting bigger.
To bad you can't measure it because the rulers are growing, too.

Then you have to factor in relativistic effects. There is no way to know what went on during the very very early days of the universe, but surely the speed of light was not what it is today, and in fact time itself would have been much different.

It may seem silly to say, because we really lack the language to speak of such things, but the first few seconds of expansion after the big bang may have taken millions of years in the prevailing passage of time then. The passage of time has enormously slowed down now, and things are happenning at a snails pace, but compared to the speed of the passage of time 10 billion years from now, we are zippy indeed. To people that might exist 10 billion years from now, it won't be noticeable at all. To them, we might have come and gone in the first one billion years of the universe, which to them will look to be about 14 or 15 billion years old.

Such is the weirdness of it all...... And it really is this way....
39 posted on 06/20/2003 12:45:12 AM PDT by John Valentine (Writing from downtown Seoul, keeping an eye on the hills to the north.)
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To: DoughtyOne
I count 9 stars (the objects with diffraction spikes). Everything else is a galaxy, apart perhaps for a few red dwarfs and white dwarfs.
40 posted on 06/20/2003 1:05:59 AM PDT by alnitak ("That kid's about as sharp as a pound of wet liver" - Foghorn Leghorn)
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To: alnitak
If you broke the picture up into quandrants about one inch square, each one appears to be worth looking at in detail. It's just a great shot full of interesting subjects.
41 posted on 06/20/2003 1:09:59 AM PDT by DoughtyOne
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To: Blood of Tyrants
Sure it does. First he created the light. Where was the light that he created? Everywhere! Then he seperated the light from the dark and made the first day. The light didn't need 12 billion years to get here because it already was here.

Actually the first "light" of creation has been seen. By COBE (COsmic Background Explorer). The "light" it saw predates the galaxies in the above Hubble photo by 700,000 years.

I can tell that your mind is open to every kind of new and exciting discovery and I'm certain you have the education and intellectual capacity to truly understand the significance of this most excellent discovery.

COBE

42 posted on 06/20/2003 5:16:01 AM PDT by The Shootist
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To: DannyTN
I'll take Mickey Rooney over all that empty space. If he was good enough for Ava Gardner he's good enough for me.
43 posted on 06/20/2003 5:25:14 AM PDT by ricpic
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To: org.whodat
If you are on a plane travelling at 300 miles per hour and you look over and see a fly going by in the cabin. how fast is the fly going?????

Damn, now I'm going to be wondering about that all day.

And does it matter if the fly is flying toward first class or toward the back? Does it matter which way the earth below is rotating? Does it matter if it's being chased by a frog someone brought on board?

44 posted on 06/20/2003 5:35:55 AM PDT by Larry Lucido
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To: DannyTN
What am I missing?

Don't be intimidated by those who throw "Oh that's really simple" BS at you. I "are" an MIT-educated Aeronautical & Astronautical engineer (as we illiterate engineers say) - and I don't get it either. I never have - and I came to this thread hoping to ask the exact same question you did. So far, I haven't seen anybody demonstrate any understanding of it.

We need an astrophysicist to explain how we are either moving at a substantial fraction of the speed of light - in which case light itself is saying "Hold up!! (Pant, Pant) I gotta show you these 12 billion year old images of the beginning of the universe" - or how the other side of the universe that we're looking at - warp-drove away from us at many times the speed of light right after the Big Bang - and then deigned to slow down to show us what it was doing at 1 billion years old.

45 posted on 06/20/2003 5:47:47 AM PDT by ctonious
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To: DannyTN

Huh?...

46 posted on 06/20/2003 5:59:21 AM PDT by Hatteras (The Thundering Herd Of Turtles ROCK!)
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To: FastCoyote
Scientifically challenged? Hardly. Just because I don't hold that people spontaneously evolved from mud and rocks doesn't mean that I am unable to effectively deal with science. I am an electrical engineer and deal with scientific principles every single day.
47 posted on 06/20/2003 6:35:34 AM PDT by Blood of Tyrants (Even if the government took all your earnings, you wouldn’t be, in its eyes, a slave.)
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To: Arthalion
Despite the fact that this light took 12 billion years to reach us, the originating galaxy was probably only 4 or 5 billion light years away when it was emitted.

You've just redefined the meaning of a "light year".

48 posted on 06/20/2003 6:51:37 AM PDT by kjam22
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To: DannyTN
When dealing with the speed of planets and galaxies relative to each other, simple Newtonian math works just fine.

Also, I agree that they are using some fuzzy math here. Supposedly the relative speeds of the galaxies are MUCH lower than c. If the galaxy they are talking about is 12 billion light years away, and the universe is 13 billion years old, then at some point nearly every object in the universe was traveling at or near the speed of light.

Also, using their argument that the light from the mentioned galaxy has traveled 12 billion years to get here, the simple fact that you can see it at all suggest that the relative speed of the galaxy 12 billion years ago was well within the Netwtonian physics range. Otherwise, the Doppler shift would have made the frequency of the light coming from the galaxy so low that it simply could not be seen.

Using those two points of logic assume the earth and the galaxy are relatively the same distance from the center of the "big bang" (6 billion light years) and that their speed is relatively low. That means that they traveled 6 billion light years each within the span of 1 billion years and thus violated the theory of relativity which states that no object can achieve the speed of light except light itself.
49 posted on 06/20/2003 6:58:59 AM PDT by Blood of Tyrants (Even if the government took all your earnings, you wouldn’t be, in its eyes, a slave.)
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To: FastCoyote
P.S. What part of "No personal attacks" do you not understand?
50 posted on 06/20/2003 6:59:38 AM PDT by Blood of Tyrants (Even if the government took all your earnings, you wouldn’t be, in its eyes, a slave.)
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