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‘The Real Deal’ on women in Saudi
MSNBC ^ | 6-19-03 | Joe Scarborough

Posted on 06/21/2003 12:04:50 AM PDT by JustPiper

Held in Saudi Arabia against their will

COMMENTARY by Joe Scarborough

June 19 — American women and children continue to be held in Saudi Arabia against their will. The cream puffs at the State Department can call it what they want… but if it were our children trapped in a foreign land, we’d call it kidnapping.

WOMEN HAVE FEW rights in Saudi Arabia. Like the Taliban, our so-called Saudi allies prohibit women from leaving the country without their father and husband’s approval. Thirteen years ago, an American woman actually got kicked out of the U.S. embassy for having the nerve to escape there with her children. It seems the children’s father regularly beat the woman and children. Reports of other American women and children trapped in Saudi Arabia continue surfacing at an alarming rate — despite Prince Bandar’s September promise that no American women and children would be held in his kingdom against their will.

Well, today’s news made the Prince out to be a liar.

Watch Joe Scarborough on “Scarborough Country,” 10 p.m. ET, weeknights on MSNBC TV.

23-year-old Sarah Saga and her two children escaped to the U.S. embassy to get away from another abusive Saudi relationship. Miss Saga’s story is typically tragic: Her Saudi father kidnapped Ms. Saga when she was 6 years old and refused to return her to her American mother. Saga grew up and was forced to marry a Saudi man; she had two children, and then found herself trapped in an abusive relationship. Last month she tried to take her children home to America, but once again, the Saudis refused and offered Ms. Saga a Sophie’s Choice: your freedom or your children. Already facing death threats, Ms. Saga chose to escape Saudi soil and finally come home to American soil.

But the question remains. Why does our administration and Congress continue allowing the Saudis to kidnap our women and imprison our children? If Iran were to do such a thing, we would quickly declare war. It begs the question, is the pursuit of cheap oil really worth selling our nation’s soul? I think not.

And that, my friend, is the ‘Real Deal.’

(Excerpt) Read more at msnbc.com ...


TOPICS: Activism/Chapters; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: americancitizens; childabuse; children; civilrights; hostage; humanrights; kidnapped; muslimwomen; rightsviolations; saudi; saudiarabia; saudihumanrights; saudiworldview; wherearethefeminists; wpmen
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The Real Deal is horrible, what is wrong with our Government?

Free Sarah Saga and her two children

1 posted on 06/21/2003 12:04:51 AM PDT by JustPiper
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To: cgk
Ping ;)
2 posted on 06/21/2003 12:05:35 AM PDT by JustPiper (You know that I'm NOT the kind of crazy that can be cured!!!)
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To: Pokey78; unspun; MightyMouseToSaveThe Day; WhyisaTexasgirlinPA; Kathy in Alaska; ...
Human Rights Offense Ping!
3 posted on 06/21/2003 12:07:39 AM PDT by JustPiper (You know that I'm NOT the kind of crazy that can be cured!!!)
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To: JustPiper; jonalvy44; just mimi; PhiKapMom; txdoda; Brasil; GrandMoM; Ciexyz; mhking; summer; ...
Thanks Piper!

Scarborough ping! (and Sara Saga ping)
4 posted on 06/21/2003 12:07:45 AM PDT by cgk (Rummy on WMD: We haven't found Saddam Hussein yet, but I don't see anyone saying HE didn't exist.)
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To: JustPiper; All
Additional info on Sara Saga here, written by Pat Roush, another mother whose children were kidnapped 17 years ago by Saudi dad, still living in Saudi Arabia... Sarah defies Saudi thugs, won't leave without kids! . Includes contact info for the State Dept.
5 posted on 06/21/2003 12:11:09 AM PDT by cgk (Rummy on WMD: We haven't found Saddam Hussein yet, but I don't see anyone saying HE didn't exist.)
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To: cgk
Thanx for Jh's link CG! I read it but did not put the two together, duh ;)
6 posted on 06/21/2003 12:33:36 AM PDT by JustPiper (You know that I'm NOT the kind of crazy that can be cured!!!)
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To: cgk
I almost never post, though I read addictively every day, but I have my own story about the State Debt and this messy business! Three years ago, I moved to Sweden with my husband because we hadn't gotten the hitches worked out with his worker's permit (he is a Swedish citizen, married to a US one, with a daughter who is a US citizen, born in the US, and had a job, etc, but since he wasn't the sort of immigrant that was the most appealing to the power's that be, they messed up our application, didn't take any blame, and left us hanging for five months!) for what was presumably going to be a few months until we got the permits worked out. Once here, he decided he wanted us to stay here, and things fell rapidly aprt in our marriage (no flames please, I tried my best, but he was a really rotten husband and a lot of really crappy things went down between us!) So, after giving him a year of warnings that I was desperate toleave, to get marriage counselling, to try and work things out (all of these were things he wasn't interested in!) I nade the very hard and miserable decision to go back to the US with my daughter. I consulted a lawyer in the US, and was told that he could invoke the Hague Convention against kidnapping on me, and had six months to do it. Over the next five months, I contacted him regularly, trying to work out an agreement with custody, so that my daughter and I could remain in the US, and he could have lots of visitation (my daughter was two when we moved back, and he had never spent one single hour with her that I wasn't there, because he said she was too much of a pest). This was not good enough, and five and a half months later (thought I was going to be home free!) I came home from work and had a letter from the US State Department telling me the rules on kidnapping. Now, I do want to remind you all that I wasn't trying to keep my daughter from my husband, I just knew that I was her primary caregiver, and that I couldn't work in Sweden (don't speak the language, and it is hard to get a job here, anyway!). So, after hours and hours of consultation with the State Dept a lawyer in Sweden and a lawyer in the US, I realized that I had no rights, and that my country was going to send me back to Sweden. The State Dept was going to find my husband a wonderful lawyer in the US, and I was going to have to pay the costs. My lawyer here told me that I would be looking at upwards of 60,000 dollars to even begin the fight, and it just wasn't possible (as he would most likely win, in any case.) Now, the technicality was that my daughter lived in Sweden for ONE month longer than she had in the US, so the custody was to be arranged in Sweden. And Sweden is across the board 50-50 custody. Please, don't think I don't want my daughter to have a great relationship with this guy, he is her dad, but I didn't want to move to a place where I can't support myself, and have no family for help. However, I moved back here in March, and am taking Swedish lessons (I am the only non-Iraqui or Bosnian in my class, and let me tell you, Clinton's War has made many more enemies than Bush's!) and living off of the Swedish welfare system. And now that we are here (and have been for almost four months!) my husband has had my daughter to spend the night with him SIX times (he is supposed to have her six times every two weeks, but it cuts into his reclaimed bachelor lifestyle, and she is a difficult three year old!) I am pretty sad about it, because every where I go, I am treated pretty badly by at least one person since I am an American (I had some guy throw a table covered with drinks on me one night because I refused to discuss the war--he was such a rabid lefty, it didn't seem worth the time!). The sad part is that that Sweden has one of the biggest track records of violating the same agreement with custody disputes, and there are tons of Americans who can't get their kids out of Sweden even though the custody was settled in US courts. So, there is my story, written even though I am sure that most of the replies will be that I obviously didn't try hard enough to keep my marriage working! (And I actually did, my parents, who are as right wing as they get, begged me to come back when they heard the stories!) Custody disputes are rotten, and since I couldn't possibly give up my daughter, I am stuck here for the next nine years (she can decide where she wants to live when she is twelve). I am soooo not a fan of the State Dept!!!
7 posted on 06/21/2003 12:47:02 AM PDT by Rutabega
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To: JustPiper
despite Prince Bandar’s September promise that no American women and children would be held in his kingdom against their will.

This needs to be pointed out, loudly and often.
Along with the inferance that Prince Bandar is a liar.
(or, that he is "impotent" when it comes to enforcing his word.)

8 posted on 06/21/2003 12:48:20 AM PDT by Drammach
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To: Rutabega; Chi-townChief; Anomaly in Illinois; Dengar01; spintreebob; unspun; chicagolady; ...
My heart is aching for you. Marriage is a personal thing, not our business, but I've been divorced and know the fear and pain and costs it can bring! I hurt so badly for you (tears) that our country is doing this and their assinine and cruel rules! In Saudi, they fought to 'not' give Sara refuge and if she went outside the Embassy she would have been either immediately arrested or her daughter taken from her. And we back that up here! We honor their abominable laws and injustices to women who marry a Saudi! Crap, I still have nightmares about Sally Fields movie "Not Without My Daughter!"

Joe's commentary does not begin to cover this story, even on his show. He had a guest, Pat Roush, whose two 'adult' daughters are still stuck in Saudi! And there are supposed to be thousands of American women dealing with this injustice in Saudi alone, whom are American Citizens. Sweden is supposed to be a beautiful place and it turned out to be hell for you. We could start a campaign here at FR for you with emailing the State Dept. etc. Would you like our help?

9 posted on 06/21/2003 1:17:45 AM PDT by JustPiper (You know that I'm NOT the kind of crazy that can be cured!!!)
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To: Coleus; TxBec; kellynla; fatima; ricpic; Pokey78; Timesink; DaughterOfAnIwoJimaVet; Bellflower; ...
Freeper needs help Ping!
10 posted on 06/21/2003 1:19:29 AM PDT by JustPiper (You know that I'm NOT the kind of crazy that can be cured!!!)
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To: JustPiper
"Thirteen years ago, an American woman actually got kicked out of the U.S. embassy for having the nerve to escape there with her children."

Thirteen years ago, Bush the Elder was president. The Bush family have Saudi friends who get invited to dinner at the White House on a moment's notice. I don't expect the current President Bush to apply any pressure on the Saudi gov't for any solution that would favor the women and children.

G.W. is supposed to be protecting Americans, but if they're in Saudi, forget it. I hold this against him.

11 posted on 06/21/2003 1:20:11 AM PDT by etcetera
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To: LindaSOG
Please Ping the Canteen folx about this Freeper's plight!
12 posted on 06/21/2003 1:20:38 AM PDT by JustPiper (You know that I'm NOT the kind of crazy that can be cured!!!)
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To: Drammach
And we need to start doing something about fighting back on this!
13 posted on 06/21/2003 1:21:14 AM PDT by JustPiper (You know that I'm NOT the kind of crazy that can be cured!!!)
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To: Rutabega
"I almost never post..."

Or use a line break / carriage return.......

14 posted on 06/21/2003 1:24:14 AM PDT by Ready4Freddy
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To: etcetera
Whoever is at fault will not get these women and children back! This is up to us as 'compassionate' Americans and there are no better activists nor fighters than here at FR!
15 posted on 06/21/2003 1:24:46 AM PDT by JustPiper (You know that I'm NOT the kind of crazy that can be cured!!!)
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To: Ready4Freddy
And considering she does not post, I am sure with her living dilemma it is the last thing she is thinking of, lighten up ok? ;) We don't want to scare lurkers from posting ya know?
16 posted on 06/21/2003 1:26:16 AM PDT by JustPiper (You know that I'm NOT the kind of crazy that can be cured!!!)
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Comment #17 Removed by Moderator

To: Ready4Freddy; Stephanie Kutzner
Geez, could you two be any more callous and petty? Good grief.
18 posted on 06/21/2003 2:14:50 AM PDT by BagCamAddict
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To: BagCamAddict
What's that great Tom Hanks line from A League of Their Own? "I guess I could, if there's more money in it." (or something like that ;)
19 posted on 06/21/2003 2:20:06 AM PDT by Ready4Freddy
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To: etcetera
"The Bush family have Saudi friends who get invited to dinner at the White House on a moment's notice"

Our embassy will not feed her.....she must pay for their food. Last Wednesday they went to bed without eating.
This is an outrage!

20 posted on 06/21/2003 4:47:08 AM PDT by mickie
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To: JustPiper; Rutabega
We could start a campaign here at FR for you with emailing the State Dept. etc...

DITTO'S! I'm sure we can do more, but I've been REAL itchy for a good FReep!

prisoner6

21 posted on 06/21/2003 5:07:50 AM PDT by prisoner6 ( Right Wing Nuts hold the country together as the loose screws of the left fall out!)
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To: Rutabega
Suggestion -- since you say your daughter was born here in the US (so she is a US citizen), and so are you -- just fly back here and fade away. Your mistake was in voluntarily getting involved with the US bureaucracy. Any bureaucracy will screw you over. But if you come back, fade away (move to a different state than where you used to live) and just go low profile, you will have no problems. The state department lawyers may claim that they will fight you if you talk with them, but if you live here they are not going to spend much money attempting to track you down.

Listen carefully. Millions of illegal immigrants successfully "disappear" into life here ever year. As a legal citizen you can do so even more easily. Come back, move to a state you did not live in before, get a job, and fade away (as in, DO NOT talk with anyone in the government).

22 posted on 06/21/2003 5:10:31 AM PDT by dark_lord (The Statue of Liberty now holds a baseball bat and she's yelling 'You want a piece of me?')
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To: Rutabega
Rutabega, you trusted the law and your fellow man. You fought fair.
Now you must trust no one and fight another way. Things get worse if they don't get better.
23 posted on 06/21/2003 6:27:13 AM PDT by Graymatter
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To: JustPiper
Why does our administration and Congress continue allowing the Saudis to kidnap our women and imprison our children? If Iran were to do such a thing, we would quickly declare war.

This was the one false note in Scarborough's article. (See full article, I think this is not in the exerpt.) There is no way we would quickly declare war if Iran, or any other country, did it. We are not the kind of country which declares war just because our women are kidnapped and children imprisoned. Unfortunately, I think.

24 posted on 06/21/2003 6:47:53 AM PDT by Steve Eisenberg
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To: dark_lord
You are absolutely correct. This is what they should have done with Elian Gonzalez. Just faded away, and Reno would have been stymied.
25 posted on 06/21/2003 6:53:16 AM PDT by Paul Ross (From the State Looking Forward to Global Warming! Let's Drown France!)
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To: Rutabega
Every word you write rings true. God bless you for putting your daughter first.
26 posted on 06/21/2003 7:02:17 AM PDT by Steve Eisenberg
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To: dark_lord
Millions of illegal immigrants successfully "disappear" into life here ever year. As a legal citizen you can do so even more easily. Come back, move to a state you did not live in before, get a job, and fade away (as in, DO NOT talk with anyone in the government).

While I wouldn't condemn Rutabega for doing what dark_lord suggests, not only would she be living a shadow life, so would her daughter. Also, I think that in future years INS will be getting more and more sucessful at catching illegals, so, five years from now, Rutabega and daughter could easily be caught in a type of dragnet that doesn't exist today. Rutabega's plan to stay in Sweden until her daughter is old enough to decide is a higher moral choice.

27 posted on 06/21/2003 7:12:02 AM PDT by Steve Eisenberg
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To: JustPiper
"WOMEN HAVE FEW rights in Saudi Arabia. Like the Taliban, our so-called Saudi allies prohibit women from leaving the country without their father and husband’s approval."

OK, I admit, I do not know all the details of this story, but did the woman NOT know Saudi laws and customs before she decided to marry this raghead?(raceism not intended) Why is she in Saudi Arabia to begin with?
Maybe someone can link me to a story that can explain why I should really feel so sorry for her.
Was she taken to Saudi Arabia aginst her will? Did she not marry this creep? Was it also aginst her will? Is he not the father of the kids?

I have been out of the country for past 6 weeks, and maybe I missed something.

Thanks
28 posted on 06/21/2003 7:12:52 AM PDT by AlexW
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To: AlexW
OK, I admit, I do not know all the details of this story, but did the woman NOT know Saudi laws and customs before she decided to marry this raghead?(raceism not intended) Why is she in Saudi Arabia to begin with?

It's all explained here:

Marriage to Saudis, a minor classic by an anonymous diplomat determined to tell it straight

29 posted on 06/21/2003 7:33:24 AM PDT by Steve Eisenberg
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To: Steve Eisenberg
"But knowledge of Saudi Arabia and its particular interpretation of Islam should be an American woman's first step in determining whether the compromises required are worth the proposed relationship."

Well, that pretty well sums it up for me.

Thanks
30 posted on 06/21/2003 7:52:11 AM PDT by AlexW
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To: Rutabega
What if you came back to the US again, with your daughter, and gave your ex no way of finding you?
31 posted on 06/21/2003 7:56:46 AM PDT by A_perfect_lady (Let them eat cake.)
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To: dark_lord; Rutabega
I'm with dark, come back and vanish. If you work jobs that don't require intensive education and cv, you can even come up with a different name, I'm sure. Your parents can be "references." I would think that your daughter will survive just fine without having a relationship with a father like this. Just my opinion.
32 posted on 06/21/2003 8:00:42 AM PDT by A_perfect_lady (Let them eat cake.)
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To: JustPiper
It's time for a Ross Perot type hostage rescue.
33 posted on 06/21/2003 8:01:46 AM PDT by Andy from Beaverton
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To: Steve Eisenberg
While I wouldn't condemn Rutabega for doing what dark_lord suggests, not only would she be living a shadow life, so would her daughter. Also, I think that in future years INS will be getting more and more sucessful at catching illegals, so, five years from now, Rutabega and daughter could easily be caught in a type of dragnet that doesn't exist today. Rutabega's plan to stay in Sweden until her daughter is old enough to decide is a higher moral choice.

I disagree. Note that both she and her daughter are US citizens. Did you miss that? So I don't think the INS would ever be involved.

34 posted on 06/21/2003 8:01:54 AM PDT by dark_lord (The Statue of Liberty now holds a baseball bat and she's yelling 'You want a piece of me?')
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To: AlexW
She was married to him against her will when she was very young.
35 posted on 06/21/2003 8:02:19 AM PDT by A_perfect_lady (Let them eat cake.)
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To: Rutabega
Thanks for the first hand description of how difficult this can become.
36 posted on 06/21/2003 8:05:46 AM PDT by KC Burke
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To: Rutabega
I am so sorry to hear this--custody and divorce are such hells even when both parents are Americans. I don't know that the State Department, though, could be expected to cope with such a complicated business.

I know some college kids who are infatuated with foreign-born students--the whiff of exoticism and those charming accents. Will forward your predicament to them, as warning. Buy American, marry American.

All you fellows who think buying an overseas bride is such a bargain, take heed.

37 posted on 06/21/2003 8:09:28 AM PDT by Mamzelle
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To: Mamzelle
I know some college kids who are infatuated with foreign-born students--the whiff of exoticism and those charming accents. Will forward your predicament to them, as warning. Buy American, marry American.

100% BUMP. My advice to an American woman messing about with men from the Middle East, in particular, is don't!!!! Don't, don't, don't, ever, ever, ever! I don't care how charming he is. I don't care how secular he seems. Once you are in his power, Dr. Jekyll becomes Mr. Hyde, Henry VIII, and Bluebeard all rolled into one. I've had several friends who've dated Arabs and, to quote the narcoleptic Argentinian of MOULIN ROUGE... "It always ends BAD!"

38 posted on 06/21/2003 8:15:19 AM PDT by A_perfect_lady (Let them eat cake.)
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To: JustPiper
"Whoever is at fault will not get these women and children back! This is up to us as 'compassionate' Americans and there are no better activists nor fighters than here at FR!"

I've emailed Pres. Bush to ask him why he acts as if his friendship with the Saudis outweighs his duty to protect Americans.

All Americans should ask him the same question. Email him here and ask him yourself.

39 posted on 06/21/2003 8:16:14 AM PDT by etcetera
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To: mickie
" Our embassy will not feed her.....she must pay for their food. Last Wednesday they went to bed without eating."

Is there some way we can get money to her or pay someone to provide? I'm willing to contribute...

40 posted on 06/21/2003 8:18:13 AM PDT by etcetera
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To: A_perfect_lady
American men ought to pay attention, as well. A Muslim man may marry a "kafir" woman if he pleases, but a Muslim woman cannot marry an infidel man without causing her family disgrace. And disgrace can be dangerous when dealing with Islamics.

Not that there are many Muslim girls at the colleges, but there are a few.

And if any foreign girl has an influential family, they can make life miserable for an American bridegroom.

There was an interesting movie a couple years back about this American man who sent off for his Russian bride ('cause American women are so *difficult*), only to end up with her Ruso-Mafia family to deal with...

Make sense--those who seek shortcuts are likely to end up on a dead end.

41 posted on 06/21/2003 8:20:58 AM PDT by Mamzelle
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To: etcetera
I suggest you take a hard look at Pat Roush and the life she has led before you take her part against the Bushes. She was pretty quiet during the Clinton years, and the girls were MIA then, too. Only during the two Bush admins has she made a lot of noise. A Berkeleyite with a long history of "marital masochism" with her Saudi husband--she thinks that Bush won't help her because of his "family oil."

I make a point of reminding people of this--National Review Online, for some reason, has made a pet of this nutcase.

42 posted on 06/21/2003 8:24:24 AM PDT by Mamzelle
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To: Mamzelle
That's true. I tend to think that an American man marrying a foreign woman is probably "saving" her from a dismal fate, and I applaud them. But you are right, you can't just pick up a person like a stray cat and take them home... 'specially if kittie comes from some freaky family who'll stalk you anywhere you go. I've heard a couple of scary stories about American men marrying Saudi girls whose brothers then devote their lives to hunting them down and killing them.

Geez... we Americans are just too dang nice!! I wish some Saudi jerk would marry one of our Lorena Bobbits, just once.

43 posted on 06/21/2003 8:33:18 AM PDT by A_perfect_lady (Let them eat cake.)
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To: A_perfect_lady
re: That's true. I tend to think that an American man marrying a foreign woman is probably "saving" her from a dismal fate, and I applaud them. )))

Afraid I don't. I take a dim view of guys picking up strays, since their real motive is likely to keep the relationship "unilateral." I see some of these now and then. That way he thinks he'll get to call all the shots--or back to the pound with her!

I see this right now with a rich guy I know who "rescued" a woman and her daughter. Now he doesn't have to marry anyone, gets to play daddy as well as sugar daddy. He thinks he's *such* a hero...

People have all kinds of reasons when they're not dealing with equals from similar backgrounds, which I believe is the most reliable way of forming a lasting marriage.

44 posted on 06/21/2003 8:50:25 AM PDT by Mamzelle
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To: Steve Eisenberg
We must send Madelein Albright over to Saudi right away to see about this.
45 posted on 06/21/2003 9:07:18 AM PDT by snopercod
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To: JustPiper
I want them flown to the US on the same private jet the Saudis used to fly Bin Ladin's family out of the US after 9/11. Today.
46 posted on 06/21/2003 9:26:07 AM PDT by Courier (Quick: Name one good thing about the Saudis.)
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To: AlexW
This woman didn't commit a crime. She followed her heart even if it was to us a foolish decision.

Maybe we would sympathize but be powerless of her situation.

But, that all changed when she managed to get into the American Embassy. She touched home. She was free.

An American Embassy should, for any innocent American, be a beacon of freedom anywhere in the World.

Sadly it's not.
47 posted on 06/21/2003 9:32:47 AM PDT by Courier (Quick: Name one good thing about the Saudis.)
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To: Mamzelle
***Only during the two Bush admins has she made a lot of noise.***

AT LAST! Some good sense.

Whenever I hear that it's all so that Bush can get cheap oil, my BS meter hits the zenith.

Has anybody considered that this is a plot to hurt America? We have nothing but the undocumented word of strangers.

FLAME AWAY! You're playing into the hands of the commie liberals who are DESPERATE to harm the conservatives.

We Americans have VERY soft hearts which the Communists use to trap us. When they take over, they will DESTROY us!




48 posted on 06/21/2003 9:34:35 AM PDT by kitkat (CONDEMNATION SALE, UN property in NY City, handyman special)
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To: kitkat
I taught Saudi princelings many years ago, when I was a sweet young thing. They have an awful way of looking at you (women)--sort of a nasty/hateful rather than an appreciative/wholesome leer. Anytime you can't figure out whether a middle-easterner is from the Islamic states or from India--just pay attention to how he looks at women. You'll figure it out in a flash. Shudder.

Anyway, there were a fair number of fair-haired girls who were quite charmed with these young men, who carried with them both the exoticism of the desert and the hopes of big oil money.

I think that Pat Roush, when she criticizes the Bush oil connections, may well be "projecting" her own disappointed desires for an alliance with rich oil.

49 posted on 06/21/2003 9:42:26 AM PDT by Mamzelle
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To: Courier
Can she not leave, or is it that she can not take the kids with her?
I really do feel somewhat sorry for her, but to a limit.

"A_perfect_lady" says that she was forced to marry the creep.
Do we know that to be fact?
Are the kids a product of rape?

If I go off to another country, I do so with the knowledge that I have to live by THEIR laws and customs, not that of the US.
If she was kidnaped or forced, then that's another matter.

"She followed her heart even if it was to us a foolish decision."

This happens probably thousands of times, and every day, in the US.

I am still trying to understand why this is not a common custody dispute.



50 posted on 06/21/2003 10:18:26 AM PDT by AlexW
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