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Y Chromosomes Rewrite British History
Nature ^ | 6-19-2003 | Hannah Hoag

Posted on 06/24/2003 10:33:30 AM PDT by blam

Y chromosomes rewrite British history

Anglo-Saxons' genetic stamp weaker than historians suspected

19 June 2003
HANNAH HOAG

Some Scottish men's Y's are remarkably similar to those of southern England. © GettyImages

A new survey of Y chromosomes in the British Isles suggests that the Anglo-Saxons failed to leave as much of a genetic stamp on the UK as history books imply1.

Romans, Anglo-Saxons, Danes, Vikings and Normans invaded Britain repeatedly between 50 BC and AD 1050. Many historians ascribe much of the British ancestry to the Anglo-Saxons because their written legacy overshadows that of the Celts.

But the Y chromosomes of the regions tell a different story. "The Celts weren't pushed to the fringes of Scotland and Wales; a lot of them remained in England and central Ireland," says study team member David Goldstein, of University College London. This is surprising: the Anglo-Saxons reputedly colonized southern England heavily.

The Anglo-Saxons and Danes left their mark in central and eastern England, and mainland Scotland, the survey says, and the biological traces of Norwegian invaders show up in the northern British Isles, including Orkney.

Similar studies, including one by the same team, have looked at differences in mitochondrial DNA, which we inherit from our mothers. They found little regional variation because females tended to move to their husbands.

But the Y chromosome shows sharper differences from one geographic region to the next, says geneticist Luca Cavalli-Sforza, of Stanford University, California. "The Y chromosome has a lower mutation rate than mitrochondrial DNA."

Goldstein's team collected DNA samples from more than 1,700 men living in towns across England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales. They took a further 400 DNA samples from continental Europeans, including Germans and Basques. Only men whose paternal grandfathers had dwelt within 20 miles of their current home were eligible.

The Y chromosomes of men from Wales and Ireland resemble those of the Basques. Some believe that the Basques, from the border of France and Spain, are the original Europeans.

The new survey is an example of how archaeologists, prehistorians and geneticists are beginning to collaborate, comments Chris Tyler-Smith of the University of Oxford, UK, who tracks human evolution using the Y chromosome. "It would be nice to see the whole world surveyed in this kind of detail, but it's expensive and there are other priorities."

References Capelli, C. et al. A Y chromosome census of the British Isles. Current Biology, 13, 979 - 984, (2003). |Article|

© Nature News Service / Macmillan Magazines Ltd 2003


TOPICS: News/Current Events; United Kingdom
KEYWORDS: ancienthistory; archaeology; british; caledonia; chromosomes; genetics; ggg; godsgravesglyphs; helixmakemineadouble; history; pictish; picts; rewrite; romanempire; scotland; scotlandyet; uk; unitedkingdom; wales; welsh; y
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Maybe I'm not a WASP afterall.
1 posted on 06/24/2003 10:33:30 AM PDT by blam
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To: blam
I find this science totally fascinating. I really hope that with time it will become easier and more widespread (meaning cheaper) to obtain, exchange and compare DNA data, the way we now exchange genealogy files.

2 posted on 06/24/2003 10:37:39 AM PDT by ElkGroveDan (Fighting for Freedom and Having Fun)
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To: RightWhale; JudyB1938
If you want to read something really different, read this:

Arthur, America And The Comet

3 posted on 06/24/2003 10:40:32 AM PDT by blam
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To: blam
I find this science totally fascinating. I really hope that with time it will become easier and more widespread (meaning cheaper) to obtain, exchange and compare DNA data, the way we now exchange genealogy files.

4 posted on 06/24/2003 10:40:44 AM PDT by ElkGroveDan (Fighting for Freedom and Having Fun)
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To: ElkGroveDan
btt
5 posted on 06/24/2003 10:40:56 AM PDT by MattinNJ (It ain't right. Says so in the scriptures.)
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To: ElkGroveDan
One of the things special about the Y chromosome is that it is passed from father to son unmodified. The mother does not have any Y chromosome information to contribute. Because of that you can trace father linage very far into the past, assuming of course you can get DNA samples.
6 posted on 06/24/2003 10:41:10 AM PDT by Reeses
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To: ElkGroveDan
Yep! "It would be nice to see the whole world surveyed in this kind of detail, but it's expensive and there are other priorities." Probably sooner than later, it should become cheap and reach completion as a matter of course. I'm excited! ;^)
7 posted on 06/24/2003 10:42:00 AM PDT by AntiGuv ()
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To: blam
Well, I guess it's a pretty decent confirmation of the demonstrated human ability to tell when somebody "looks English." There's that sort of longish facial structure, and something about the mouth (not just bad teeth).

Churchill made an off-hand remark about that physical characteristic in his "History of the English-Speaking People."

8 posted on 06/24/2003 10:46:38 AM PDT by r9etb
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To: blam
Maybe my ex had it right when she called me a Basquard...
9 posted on 06/24/2003 10:47:39 AM PDT by trebb
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To: blam
Neat! BTTT
10 posted on 06/24/2003 10:48:56 AM PDT by Constitution Day (Have *you* taunted a liberal today?)
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To: ElkGroveDan
"I really hope that with time it will become easier and more widespread (meaning cheaper) to obtain, exchange and compare DNA data, the way we now exchange genealogy files. "

I agree. In fact, I think there is a tremendous business opportunity here. The person/business who has the largest DNA 'library' and a cheap/fast comparsion method will be worth millions, IMO.
The volume part of the business will be comparing individuals and selling geneology lineages. As you obtain more and more samples, previously unknown human migratory patterns will emerge and that information can be sold.

You could in effect rewrite human prehistory. Researchers would come to you for specific information contained in your 'library.'

11 posted on 06/24/2003 10:51:47 AM PDT by blam
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To: r9etb
"Churchill made an off-hand remark about that physical characteristic in his "History of the English-Speaking People."

Yup. Read that years ago and could never figure out who were the 'long faced' people he referred to.(?)

12 posted on 06/24/2003 10:55:24 AM PDT by blam
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To: trebb
"Maybe my ex had it right when she called me a Basquard..."

Are they related to the sumbitches? (We could be related, lol)

13 posted on 06/24/2003 10:57:52 AM PDT by blam
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To: VadeRetro; PatrickHenry; Swordmaker
The Y chromosomes of men from Wales and Ireland resemble those of the Basques. Some believe that the Basques, from the border of France and Spain, are the original Europeans.

Any bets on the subject of Ray Capt's next opus?

Heck, it might even be 36 pages of scholarship (including covers).


"In a hidden library in a forgotten catacomb beneath an abandoned rectory behind Westminster Abbey, lies an ancient Gaelic scroll inscribed in Hebrew cuneiform..."

14 posted on 06/24/2003 10:58:01 AM PDT by Sabertooth
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To: blam
Goldstein's team collected DNA samples from more than 1,700 men living in towns across England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales

That doesn't sound like a very large sample. There must be at least 50,000 settlements in the UK. Seems like a pretty tenuous basis to start rewriting history.

15 posted on 06/24/2003 11:00:40 AM PDT by alnitak ("That kid's about as sharp as a pound of wet liver" - Foghorn Leghorn)
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To: r9etb
...ability to tell when somebody "looks English." There's that sort of longish facial structure,...

Like "Mr. Bean".

16 posted on 06/24/2003 11:01:47 AM PDT by elbucko
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To: Sabertooth
"Any bets on the subject of Ray Capt's next opus? "

Yup. Don't be suprised to see some ideas discussed on FR contained in the book.

The English and Welsh Are Races Apart

17 posted on 06/24/2003 11:04:16 AM PDT by blam
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To: r9etb
I think "horse-faced" is more descriptive somehow.
18 posted on 06/24/2003 11:07:36 AM PDT by LibertyAndJusticeForAll
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To: Reeses
Ancestry Of Europeans Traced To Middle East
19 posted on 06/24/2003 11:08:35 AM PDT by blam
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To: blam
could never figure out who were the 'long faced' people he referred to.(?)

I have an old copy of Life's Picture History of World War II wherein there's a picture of a British air raid warden during the blitz (looked, but couldn't find it on-line). He'd be your quintessential "long faced person."

20 posted on 06/24/2003 11:08:43 AM PDT by r9etb
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To: blam
Maybe we can figure out who were the Fomorians.

My hunch is that they were African sea people.

21 posted on 06/24/2003 11:16:49 AM PDT by blam
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To: blam
Are they related to the sumbitches? (We could be related, lol)

Could be; that's what she called the rest of my family...Glad to meet you Cuz...

22 posted on 06/24/2003 11:28:50 AM PDT by trebb
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To: blam
The problem is that according to Capt, the Brits are Celts, aka "Saac's sons." The Y chromosome research here distinguishes the Celts from the Anglo-Saxons.


23 posted on 06/24/2003 11:29:18 AM PDT by Sabertooth
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To: blam
The Y chromosomes of men from Wales and Ireland resemble those of the Basques. Some believe that the Basques, from the border of France and Spain, are the original Europeans.

Very interesting. That means that the Celts originally didn't speak an I-E language, which makes sense. I wonder if that explains Pictish.

24 posted on 06/24/2003 11:38:10 AM PDT by Question_Assumptions
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To: Question_Assumptions
*The Y chromosomes of men from Wales and Ireland resemble those of the Basques. Some believe that the Basques, from the border of France and Spain, are the original Europeans.

**Very interesting. That means that the Celts originally didn't speak an I-E language, which makes sense. I wonder if that explains Pictish.

That's a huge leap, since there is no evidence that the Celts ever spoke anything but an I-E language. All that's being claimed is that there is some similarity between Celt and Basque Y-chromosomes. There are no details as to any hypothesized timeframe of divergence.


25 posted on 06/24/2003 11:46:27 AM PDT by Sabertooth
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To: blam
Some Scottish men's Y's are remarkably similar to those of southern England.

Depends which bit of Scotland the men tested came from, I should imagine.
IIRC, the Angles were colonising what is now southern Scotland at exactly the same time as the Scots were arriving from Ireland.

26 posted on 06/24/2003 11:58:33 AM PDT by Da_Shrimp
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To: blam
ping for the bees in the room
27 posted on 06/24/2003 12:05:39 PM PDT by CGVet58 (I still miss my ex-wife... but my aim is improving!)
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To: Sabertooth
That's a huge leap, since there is no evidence that the Celts ever spoke anything but an I-E language.

Sloppy writing on my part. Since the Celts are defined, in part, by an I-E language, this is true. What I meant is that the peoples of the British Isles had a pre-Celtic language. The Picts are, by many, considered non-Celtic.

All that's being claimed is that there is some similarity between Celt and Basque Y-chromosomes. There are no details as to any hypothesized timeframe of divergence.

Indo-European like came out of the Caspian Sea region and the Celts first came out of Central Europe and into the British Isles circa 1000BC. Unless the British Isles were unpopulated at that point (very unlikely), there was a pre-Celtic language population there that had to speak something else -- possibly a Basque-like language.

28 posted on 06/24/2003 12:12:59 PM PDT by Question_Assumptions
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To: Question_Assumptions
Other than 1,000 BC being a little early for the Celts, I don't have a problem with your #28. So, I'm confused by the earlier comment about the Celts having a pre-IE language, since you now seem to distinguish them from both the Picts and the Basques.


29 posted on 06/24/2003 12:20:53 PM PDT by Sabertooth
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To: blam
SPOTREP
30 posted on 06/24/2003 12:32:31 PM PDT by LiteKeeper
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To: Sabertooth
As I said, it was sloppy writing on my part. I wrote "The Celts" when I meant "The people of the British Isles". What you need to remember is that the movement of a language and culture does not necessarily require a replacement of the existing population. Indeed, Robert Drews argues that the spread of the I-E languages was performed largely by small groups of people who spread their culture to, and mixed with, indiginous populations, much as this article argues that the spread of Anglo-Saxon culture into the British Isles was more a matter of language and culture than genetics.

There were a lot of non-IE European languages including Basque, Finnish, Hungarian, Etruscan, and possibly Pictish. Most were replaced by various Indo-European dialects, much as I-E languages took over Anatolia, Persia, and Nothern India. Since Celtic language and culture migrated into British Isles and since the Scots are genetically linked to the Basques, it makes some sense to assume that pre-Celtic Scots spoke a language in the same family as Basque or that the Celts that migrated into Scotland spoke some sort of Basque-related language before becoming Celts.

31 posted on 06/24/2003 12:34:10 PM PDT by Question_Assumptions
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To: Sabertooth
The Y chromosomes of men from Wales and Ireland resemble those of the Basques. Some believe that the Basques, from the border of France and Spain, are the original Europeans.

I've met some Basques. Aside from having hemongously long names, pronounced as if they were all consonents, with lots of q's and k's and such, they seem like any other Europeans. Related to the Welsh? Could be. Does it matter to a Welshman that there was once a Basque in the woodpile?

32 posted on 06/24/2003 12:58:25 PM PDT by PatrickHenry (Felix, qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas.)
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To: blam
Wasn't there another article a couple of weeks ago saying just the opposite: that Y chromosomes show that the population of England had been almost entirely displaced at the time of the Anglo-Saxon invasions?
33 posted on 06/24/2003 2:03:27 PM PDT by aristeides
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Comment #34 Removed by Moderator

To: Question_Assumptions
"That means that the Celts originally didn't speak an I-E language, which makes sense. "

I've seen some interesting comparsion of the Basque language and at least on of the American Indian languages. The same sound means the same in both languages, etc.

35 posted on 06/24/2003 3:36:08 PM PDT by blam
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To: blivet
Shock (( soon )) -- revelations (( designed universe )) ... awe --- you haven't seen anything - yet !
36 posted on 06/24/2003 3:37:20 PM PDT by f.Christian (( Shock -- revelations (( designed universe )) ... AWE --- you haven't seen anything - yet ))
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To: blam
Some Scottish men's Y's are remarkably similar to those of southern England.

No surprise there. Their ancestors had good horses. (Or to be more precise, they stole good horses!)

37 posted on 06/24/2003 3:43:02 PM PDT by Redcloak (All work and no FReep makes Jack a dull boy. All work and no FReep make s Jack a dul boy. Allwork an)
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To: Question_Assumptions
Archaeologist Find Celts In Unlikely Spot: Central Turkey
38 posted on 06/24/2003 3:46:48 PM PDT by blam
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To: Question_Assumptions
Italian Archaeologists - Anatolia - Home To First Civilization On Earth
39 posted on 06/24/2003 3:51:04 PM PDT by blam
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Comment #40 Removed by Moderator

To: Question_Assumptions

41 posted on 06/24/2003 4:04:11 PM PDT by blam
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To: Sabertooth
That's a huge leap, since there is no evidence that the Celts ever spoke anything but an I-E language.

Indeed: what is far more likely is that while the Celts dominated the British Isles culturally, they did not displace the existing population, particularly in Ireland.

42 posted on 06/24/2003 4:09:19 PM PDT by Right Wing Professor
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To: blam; Cool Guy
If You look at the map in post 41, notice the Tocharians (Caucasian) in Central China. The Mummies found in the Chinese desert are the descendents of the Tocharians, Cherchen Man. I suspect The descendents of the Tocharians are also the Brahmins of India.

Secrets of Cherchen Man

It's amazing when you consider the Kennewick Man is (majority) Ainu.

43 posted on 06/24/2003 4:15:18 PM PDT by blam
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To: Right Wing Professor
"they did not displace the existing population, particularly in Ireland."

Apparently not in England either.

9,000 year old Cheddar Man still has relatives living there.

44 posted on 06/24/2003 4:18:56 PM PDT by blam
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To: blam
suspect The descendents of the Tocharians are also the Brahmins of India.

I don't think they ventured that far east. I suspect they lived around the Caspian sea for a while before they moved either through Iran or Afganistan over to where they are now. Well the above opinion was formed with very little information, so I could be wrong.

45 posted on 06/24/2003 5:41:58 PM PDT by Cool Guy (In God We Trust.)
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To: blam
None of those ideas particularly surprise me. The Macedonians were Celts so Anatolia isn't that much of a stretch. The Anatolia theory seems quite possible as well. Just remember that there were large non-IE populations in Anatolia as recorded in Hittite records.
46 posted on 06/24/2003 5:49:01 PM PDT by Question_Assumptions
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To: blam
Just remember that the Ainu are genetically Asian. They have Caucasan morphology but their genes suggest parallel development and not any ancestory. There are some good books out there on human genetic relationships including Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza's The History and Geography of Human Genes and Genes, Peoples, and Language if you are interested in human migrations.
47 posted on 06/24/2003 5:58:58 PM PDT by Question_Assumptions
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To: aristeides
"Wasn't there another article a couple of weeks ago saying just the opposite: that Y chromosomes show that the population of England had been almost entirely displaced at the time of the Anglo-Saxon invasions?"

Don't remember but Cool Guy turned me on to this:

Europe's 10 Founding 'Fathers'

48 posted on 06/24/2003 5:59:49 PM PDT by blam
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To: Question_Assumptions
Is Kennewick man also genetically Asian, like the Ainu?
49 posted on 06/24/2003 6:16:33 PM PDT by aristeides
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To: Sabertooth
The Y chromosomes of men from Wales and Ireland resemble those of the Basques. Some believe that the Basques, from the border of France and Spain, are the original Europeans.

Any bets on the subject of Ray Capt's next opus?

Heck, it might even be 36 pages of scholarship (including covers).

How DID the Hebrew tribes get to the Basque area without leaving their genes anywhere in between???

36 pages? That many? Don't forget the pages and pages of citations to his own books... and his bio... don't forget his bio-fiction-ography.

PS I like your new Smiledon...

50 posted on 06/24/2003 6:38:16 PM PDT by Swordmaker (Tagline Extermination Services, franchises available, small investment, big profit)
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