****GETTYSBURG**** July 1 1863

MilitaryHistoryOnline.com ^ | July 1 2003 | Carlo3b

[andysandmikesmom]

I am sure that you made that old man feel so good, ,recognizing his accomplishment...

So many of the seniors in nursing homes, have pictures of themselves, at a point in their lives, that they were so proud of...sometimes its difficult to reconcile the individual in the pictures, with the elderly and often sick person in the bed...

I am so glad that you had such an experience...

[CurlyBill]

Carlo3b, I saw that movie when it came out ... sat with a couple of re-enactors who were in the movie (Confederate) and loved the movie!! I will be buying the DVD on the 15th and I'm looking forward to seeing the scenes that were cut from it. You are 1000% correct! It was a great movie!!!

[CurlyBill]

You are probably right if you presume that Picketts charge had succeeded. If Lee had listened to Longstreet, however, and the Confederates had gone around to the right, the Confederate casualties would likely have been far fewer. Having said that, part of the spoils of this victory would have been to obtain much of the Union ordinance and weaponry...not to mention supplies (food, shoes, etc.) This is a very interesting debate, and it's great to talk about history with others who are informed and interested. Have a great 4th of July weekend!

[carlo3b]

Sam, or anyone interested, This is THE CIVIL WAR documentary that had the Letter that I posted and 100's of other stuff.. I just went to Ebay to see what the set of 9 is costing these days, because I paid $125.00 when it was initally shown on PBS (rat ba$tards), and saw a real shock, there is a complete set in box, being sold at auction for $15.51.. there isn't much time if you are interested..note others are selling later at $75.00 plus.. This set must have slipped by, as often happens during the holidays.

[carlo3b]

Sorry here is the link.. DUH http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3335298032&category=309

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so much for the information and the link and all that you do! Hugs!!!

[dalebert]

thanks for the post. very interesting.

[joanie-f]

(A belated) thanks for the ping, Dan.

Been out of commission for a while, so, upon logging on tonight, promised myself I would simply lurk rather than attempting to answer posts to me. Yet this particular ping cannot be ignored. The Civil War in general (and Gettysburg in particular) is my Achilles heel (and you knew that, didn’t you? :)

Gettysburg was the bloodiest battle ever fought on American soil – and the bloodiest battle in which Americans were ever involved. Even though the Gettysburg battlefield evokes less ‘stirrings’ in me than many other more pristine ones (the Wilderness and Spotsylvania Courthouse, for example) – because of the encroachment of the town of Gettysburg (replete with all of its tacky souvenir shops, restaurants, etc.) upon the actual battlefield – there are still spots on even that field that I believe will forever be a ‘home’ for the souls that perished there – hallowed spots where one can sense the presence of those whose bodies lie beneath the ground, but whose souls will forever 'speak' to those willing to listen. The crest of Little Round Top, Devil’s Den, and the cemetery are three such areas that somehow seem to 'speak' to people who visit there.

Joshua Chamberlain wrote the following (in a little-known book, ‘Blood and Fire’), after visiting Little Round Top many years after his regiment performed its unparalleled heroics there:

I sat there alone on the storied crest, till the sun went down as it did before over the misty hills, and the darkness crept up the slopes, till from all earthly sight I was buried as with those before. But oh, what radiant companionship rose around, what steadfast ranks of power, what bearing of heroic souls. Oh, the glory that beamed through those nights and days. Nobody will ever know it here! I am sorry most of all for that. The proud young valor that rose above the mortal, and then at last was mortal after all; the chivalry of the hand and heart that in other days and other lands would have sent their names ringing down in song and story!

Chamberlain was a rare and brilliant man, but how wrong he was in lamenting that subsequent generations would not remember or revere those men who performed their lofty, selfless deeds on those auspicious three days in that small Pennsylvania town. Granted, much of America has decided to abandon reverence for, and defense of, the truths/values that formed the foundations for this republic, and an awesome sense of indebtedness toward those who sacrificed to retain both. But there remain (and always will) many -- you and I included -- who will always cling tenaciously to their vision, and strive to keep their memories, and the eternal significance of their sacrifice, alive. Allowing the demise of the truths and liberties for which they stood will spell the demise of our republic. And the demise of our republic will not bode well for humankind.

I will be attending a community Fourth of July picnic later today, with my husband, son and daughter. A few of us who are involved in local government were asked to say a few words this afternoon after the meal and before the festivities begin. Rather than delivering a personal message, I plan to read an essay which describes what happened to the fifty-six signers of the Declaration of Independence (Each and every time I hear the essay it brings me to tears -- not because of the incredible sacrifices so many of them made in our behalf, but because the large majority of us are either unaware of, or completely unappreciative of, or apathetic toward, those sacrifices. Those courageous, visionary men left us such a valuable, hard-won inheritance, and, for the most part, we have squandered it -- and have done so with a cavalier attitude that almost borders on sacrilege). Hopefully, between to potato salad and the fireworks, some of us will take a little time to reflect on the fact that we can’t continue to squander our unique and hard-won historical inheritance, and expect to continue to receive His blessings.

Happy Fourth to you, Dan (John, Mike, Jeff, and all)!

~ joanie

[snopercod]

Hey, I thought you were a night person.

What a great idea to read that piece about the signers. Didn't Rush Limbaugh's father put that together? Can't remember...

I fear the issues that precipitated the Civil War have not been settled. It seems possible that they may once again come to a head. I'm sure you can see how that would split communities and even families as they did back then.

[Non-Sequitur]

If Lee had listened to Longstreet, however, and the Confederates had gone around to the right, the Confederate casualties would likely have been far fewer.

In conference with General Lee after the first day, Longstreet did want to move around the Union left and take up a position between the Army of the Potomac and Washington and then wait for the U.S. to attack. This is one of the most endearing 'what ifs' of the battle, but if one looks at the bigger picture you can see that Lee was right and Longstreet was wrong.

In the first place, the road network would not have permitted it easily. Roads flowed into Gettysburg like spokes on a wheel. The Army of Northern Virginia would have needed an east-west route for their supply train. No such route existed. Lee could have moved back in the direction he came from, but moving the thousands of wagons in his trains east and south towards Washington wasn't feasible.

In the second place you have to remember that Lee was in contact with the enemy. Disengaging and then moving east would have exposed the army's flanks to attack. Again, the only option immediately available to Lee was to go back in the direction he came from. That would have left the Union army between him and D.C., able to maneuver and block him on ground of their own choosing, possibly on worse ground than Lee was already facing. Then again there was the logistical problem of reorganizing the troops engaged in the battles of the first day, getting the army and the logistics turned around and headed back up the road, all in the face of the Union Army. Not an easy task, and one that left the confederate army vulnerable during the attempt.

Any shift left the confederate line of retreat vulnerable. Lee used the Shenandoah Valley to protect his flanks and guard his intentions while moving North. Manuevering around the Union Army put them between him and his road he needed to go back home in the event of an emergency. No general would willingly do that.

The long and the short of it was that Lee was right. The enemy was there, and he would fight them until he whipped them, or they beat him. He had no other choice once the battle was joined, any other course of action presented even more dangers than a knock down-stand up fight with Meade. Lee quite properly attacked on the second day, he had no other choice.

[CurlyBill]

There are certainly dozens of what ifs, and had this happened, etc. Some think that had Jeb Stuart arrived on time things would have been different. What if Hood would have been allowed to take his boys around to the rear? What if Little Round Top would have been taken the first day? What if Ewell had not been so hesitant? What if the Confederates had one more division? What if Chamberlain had not ordered a bayonet charge? What if Stonewall Jackson had survived to see Gettysburg? As for your arguements regarding the logistics of moving around to the rear, you are right for the most part. The roads did not support quick movement, but this would not have been impossible. The Union Army was still not in position at the end of day one, and they were in a bit of disarray. The did not really even have a left flank at the time and much of the Federal force was still arriving from Emmitsburg and Taneytown. I live only about an hour and a half from Gettysburg... There is nothing like the place. On my way, I can pass through Taneytown and Emmitsburg and retrace the Union routes. There is something about the place. I believe I had family who fought on both sides, but I'm still researching this. Les Kinsolving, a local conservative talk show host here in Baltimore played General Barksdale in Gettysburg and again in Gods and Generals. He had an incredible radio show from Farnsworth House in Gettysburg last night. It was broadcast in 10 states and was one of the most incredible shows I have heard.

[Blessed]

Just finished Newt's new book on Gettysburg. It is a great read. He develops a great "what if" using a flanking movement that takes the town of Westminister and gives the CSA the high ground.Great read eapecially since I stared it on the 30th and finished on the 3rd.

[Maven]

Wow, you are a collector too?

Yep. I'll also sell letters - especially if the philatelic value is greater than the historic one.

I spent Saturday morning at a stamp show, going over a stampless cover collection. For those not in the philatelic world, a stampless cover is an envelope with a cancellation or franking, but no stamp. Most were dated before 1847, when the U.S. first began using postage stamps (but some are later). Most aren't even envelopes - just folded over letters sealed with wax.

I read most of the letters in the collection - but none had great or even good content. One of them had a steamship cancel, which the dealer who hoped to sell to me was touting, but I kept pointing out to him the two flaws - one, that it was a Canadian steamship (no offense to the Canadians here, but they're just not as valuable as American ones - at least not to American collectors), and two, you couldn't make out the name of the ship! Most of the rest of the letters had fairly common cancels - mostly from states that were part of the original 13 colonies.

I've got a letter I've been researching to see if it's genuine. If it is, it's quite valuable. It was written in 1828 by a J.L. Dawson, from the Cantonment Gibson in the Indian territory. Dawson was known as the "Lost Captain," and he had a rather colorful history - court martialed for beating a lieutenant with a cane, accused of financial irregularities, and eventually accused of murdering someone (he escaped from prison and spent the rest of his life in Westminster, MD). The actual letter doesn't have terrifically great content - he was writing to his commanding officer in Washington asking to be relieved of duty in the territory due to illness. I will assume, if the letter is real, that his request was turned down, as he married a local woman named Sophie Baylor in 1829.

I know what you mean when you say how much you can get from the real time accounts of ordinary people that were present, and enduring the actual drama of life during what turned out to be our history.

Ah, but to *them* it wasn't drama - it was just their lives! Just like *our* lives will be the future's historic drama.

I scour the world through the internet, dusty attics, auctions and garage sales for rare books and authentic one of a kind documents. I can't explain how much excitement that I get from what the folks wrote down, that they saw and felt, and that we are so fortunate to have the opportunity to relive through their eyes so many years later..

It's like a treasure hunt, sometimes. ::grin::

Occasionally - although not very often - I can hold an object or letter in my hand and get a real feel for the person who created or wrote it. My mother had a collection of Civil War letters written by two brothers who were both in the Army. You could tell by the state of the handwriting how they were feeling - it was almost eerie.

Also, how often have you found as I have, that our current History books flat out distort the truth, about important fact in our heritage to fit their own template of their causes?

I learned very young, mostly due to my father's great love of history, how wrong many of the history books are and how dangerous revisionism is. As Josephine Tey said in "The Daughter of Time," history is not in records, but in record books. I take that very much to heart. And that's why I prefer to get my sense of history from contemporary accounts and not necessarily from history books written decades or centuries later.

Mavne

[nutmeg]

read later bump

[boxerblues]

bump

[Great_Dame]

Wow, great thread! I missed it the first time around, sure glad it got a bump today!!

Our Scout Troop has taken 2 trips to Gettysburgh in the last few years and the boys are asking to go again. The history of this battle is so important and far too little history is being taught these days in the schools.

In the visitors center they have a small booklet that only costs $1.00. In it you will find 6 hiking trails throughout Gettysburgh, it is an information scavenger hunt and it is really interesting to complete, to hike it all you should give yourself about 3 days. You will see the battlefields from the prespectives of both armies, tour the cemetary, charge up Little Round Top, cross Pickett's Charge, visit Eisenhour's farm, understand how surgery was done during a battle, learn about the only civilian killed during the 3 days of fighting and finally come away from the experience that America stand for something, that war is horrible, and sadly sometimes necessary. Most of all you will have a sense of awe over the commitment and passion which was possessed by our ancestors.

On completing the booklet the Scouts can receive the Gettysburgh Medal or a multipart patch to be displayed on their uniform. This award is one of the most highly prized by the scouts in our troop.

[carlo3b]

How wonderful to get the kids so actively involved in our history. My children and I have visited my of the most significant of our historical locations as was possible throughout their lives. Great work.. the bonus will be returned 100's of times in the future.

[Valin]

Remember War Never Solves Anything
/Sarcasm

[JDoutrider]

BKMRK