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Ala. Judge Loses Ten Commandments Appeal
Washington Post ^ | July 1, 2003 | Associated Press

Posted on 07/01/2003 2:47:12 PM PDT by Lurking Libertarian

ATLANTA - A federal appeals court ruled Tuesday that a Ten Commandments monument the size of a washing machine must be removed from the Alabama Supreme Court building.

The 11th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals unanimously affirmed a ruling by a federal judge who said that the 2 1/2-ton granite monument, placed there by Alabama Chief Justice Roy Moore, violates the constitutional separation of church and state.

[snip]

Moore put the monument in the rotunda of the courthouse in the middle of the night two summers ago. The monument features tablets bearing the Ten Commandments and historical quotations about the place of God in law.

[click link to read remainder of article]

(Excerpt) Read more at washingtonpost.com ...


TOPICS: Breaking News; Constitution/Conservatism; Front Page News; US: Alabama
KEYWORDS: churchandstate; roymoore; tencommandments
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To: Texas_Jarhead
Not really, but if those ol'boys want to act like Nazis, then it's fair to refer to them like that.

BTW, Southerners have no monopoly on Nazi attitudes. But you knew that didn't you?!

251 posted on 07/01/2003 8:11:27 PM PDT by muawiyah
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To: muawiyah
I challenge you to lay out in any semblance of logic the anti-Semitic pattern in the rulings of the 11th Circuit.
252 posted on 07/01/2003 8:11:41 PM PDT by lugsoul
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To: lugsoul
Lugsoul, you just don't get it do you?

I am afraid I don't have enough patience to be your teacher. Actually, there's not enough time left until the heat death of the universe for you to come to grips with the issue.

253 posted on 07/01/2003 8:13:47 PM PDT by muawiyah
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To: muawiyah
Why don't you make some effort to determine their motives before you accuse them of wanting to kill Jews? Perhaps their motives are exactly what they wrote.

Nah - that would be too obvious for someone of your clearly proficient intellect.

254 posted on 07/01/2003 8:14:02 PM PDT by lugsoul
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To: Sloth
You're the one who must be joking, but obviously isn't.

The Constitution is not worth defending only while people like you or me are in the majority. If you don't understand that, I'm hoping most people here do.

255 posted on 07/01/2003 8:14:55 PM PDT by Dog Gone
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To: Catspaw
The chief judge of the county or state, using Moore's reasoning, could order that county and/or state courts to display Koranic banners and other symbols of Islam to the exclusion of all other religions and the feds could have no say.

Are you sure that this would be disallowed if attempted today? Just last week the SCOTUS said that the promotion of "diversity" is so important that the equal protection of the 14th Amendment can be disregarded. It is entirely possible that such a court could simultaneously find Judeo-Christian displays unconstitutional & Muslim displays constitutional, since Islam is a minority religion and therefore no reasonable person could perceive there to be a government establishment of it.

256 posted on 07/01/2003 8:15:00 PM PDT by Sloth ("I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!" -- Jacobim Mugatu, 'Zoolander')
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To: muawiyah
Oh, I get it. Order a court not to have an overtly religious display? You must want to kill Jews! Run a pig farm? You must want to kill Jews! Drive your car on Saturday? You must want to kill Jews! Ban the reading of Old Testament passages in public schools? You must want to kill Jews! Open government offices on Yom Kippur? You must want to kill Jews!

No one needs your instruction.

257 posted on 07/01/2003 8:18:29 PM PDT by lugsoul
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To: Dog Gone
The Constitution is not worth defending only while people like you or me are in the majority.

People like me are not remotely in the majority, and in fact the whole reason for having a constitution is to protect minorities from tyrannical democracy. What does that have to do with what I said? Can you *really* imagine a majority-Muslim US government unwilling to establish religion because of the 1st Amendment & the 11th Circuit?

258 posted on 07/01/2003 8:20:05 PM PDT by Sloth ("I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!" -- Jacobim Mugatu, 'Zoolander')
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To: rottweiller_inc
People like you trying to convince everyone else that they cannot comprehend the simple meaning of words are dispicable.

Fine. You decide for yourself what the Constitution says and means. You're a little supreme court. Forget what over 200 years of what some pretty smart people have written.

You've got it all figured out.

259 posted on 07/01/2003 8:20:24 PM PDT by Dog Gone
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To: lugsoul
There are, in fact, people who wish to have the Jews killed, and they use any excuse they can to suppress Jews and things associated with both ancient and modern Judaism.

It's really difficult to tell them apart from your ordinary narrow minded bigots. So, every time a federal judge hits on the Ten Commandments thing his or her motives must be closely examined, and that can be done if and only if we dig deeply into their personal lives.

So far you have not shown me any evidence that the judges on the 11th Circuit have NOT purchased stock in gas oven factories.

In fact, you haven't provided me with any evidence that you don't wish to have the Jews exterminated.

(I noticed that you have resorted to name-calling after only a few posts back and forth, and that's ordinarily a sign that you may be a mind-numbed knee-jerk liberal, or just illmannered).

260 posted on 07/01/2003 8:24:14 PM PDT by muawiyah
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To: Sloth
Get off the Muslim thing and think about this again. How would you feel about some other religion putting a massive symbol of their religion in the lobby of your courthouse?

I can't that you'd approve, especially considering the language of the First Amendment.

261 posted on 07/01/2003 8:25:32 PM PDT by Dog Gone
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To: lugsoul
Oh no, I don't despise it. You typically assume what you don't know. I grew up in Alabama. My family still lives there. If you knew anything about it, you would know that the state is in the midst of a fiscal free-fall. The economy will not be assisted by the election of a governor who (a) knows nothing of government except for the imposition of his own views and (b) will drive away the investment that is critical for the survival of the state's economy.

I have lived in Alabama for 58 years. And my family still lives here, too. We have just been through four years of corruption under our former governor, Don "No Bid" Siegelman - aka Clinton-Lite. Do you think we would be better off with him in office for another four years? Do you know Bob Riley? Do you know that he was a successful business man before running for political office? Do you know that when he first ran for the U.S. Congress, he promised to limit his terms in Washington? Do you know that he kept his promise? Do you know that he inherited this fiscal free-fall "mess" from a liberal lawyer who has yet to have a close encounter with the truth?

Go ahead. With your vast knowledge of the state and of Roy Moore's governmental acumen, tell us all how his election would be good for the state.

You typically assume what you don't know. Where did I say one word about Roy Moore?

262 posted on 07/01/2003 8:25:51 PM PDT by auboy
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I can't imagine that you'd approve.

Bedtime.

263 posted on 07/01/2003 8:26:42 PM PDT by Dog Gone
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To: Lurking Libertarian
If he does that, the court will hold him in contempt and order the Federal Marshal's Service to arrest him.

If Federal Marshals come to Alabama to try to arrest Alabama Chief Justice Roy Moore, Moore should order the Alabama State Police to arrest the Federal Marshals.

264 posted on 07/01/2003 8:27:00 PM PDT by judgeandjury (The more numerous the laws, the more corrupt the state.)
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To: Spiff
Memebers from the states created the constitution. So how do you figure that the federal government came first?
265 posted on 07/01/2003 8:31:30 PM PDT by Revel
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To: muawiyah
Guess you don't know many Southerners. But you just keep holdin' on to your bigoted stereotypes.

Years ago, my grandfather told me a story of how his unit helped liberate some prison camp in WWII. He wasn't an emotional man and he didn't talk much about the war but I clearly remember wondering if he was about to cry as he told us briefly of that experience. Crying was something that I had never seen him come close to doing. He was a simple man. Raised on a small farm in the deep south where acquiring a pair of shoes was a very big deal. Some would call him a good ole boy, but not the kind of ol'boys you're talking about. Nonetheless he was a southerner and I guess he falls under your bigoted umbrella. So as an ode to him, I proclaim you a first class jackass!
266 posted on 07/01/2003 8:33:52 PM PDT by Texas_Jarhead
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To: Dog Gone
Would everyone here feel the same way if Judge Moore had placed a huge monument to the Koran on the courthouse lawn?

If Judge Moore were to have done that, the morning after it was put in place, it would probably have been found to have been smashed into numerous pieces.

267 posted on 07/01/2003 8:33:52 PM PDT by judgeandjury (The more numerous the laws, the more corrupt the state.)
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To: Revel
Members from the states created the constitution. So how do you figure that the federal government came first?

You have me confused with lugsoul. I was telling him that the States came first - they formed the Federal government - not the other way around.

268 posted on 07/01/2003 8:39:28 PM PDT by Spiff (Liberalism is a mental illness - a precursor disease to terminal Socialism.)
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To: Catspaw
Nice link...

KNOW YOUR ENEMY!

269 posted on 07/01/2003 8:42:13 PM PDT by m18436572
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To: dogbyte12
A juror walks into the building, sees the religious monument, and then sees a defendant of a different faith, and a connection is made subconsciously, that the fellow is guilty, because he worships one of these heathen religions.

Wow, you have quite an imagination! Sees a defendant of a different faith? How does that work? Do most people wear labels indicating what religion that practice?

270 posted on 07/01/2003 8:42:49 PM PDT by judgeandjury (The more numerous the laws, the more corrupt the state.)
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To: Spiff
"Go Chief Justice Moore! Where can we donate to his legal fund? He'll need it."

Here you go, Spiff...:

http://www.coralridge.org/MooreDefense.asp?ID=ttt

271 posted on 07/01/2003 8:43:13 PM PDT by NH Liberty
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To: auboy
"You typically assume what you don't know. Where did I say one word about Roy Moore?"

Did I say one word about Siegelman? Or did I say anything about Riley? Looks like I'm not the only one assuming. If you've lived there for 58 years, you know that neither rampant corruption in state government nor the fiscal problems started with Siegelman, either. As far as recent history goes, Folsom was no prize in those areas.

What you did say was that my comment that Moore's election would be bad for the state meant that I "despise" the state. The implication is clearly that you don't agree. Perhaps you do.

I think Riley's got some decent ideas. As much as it pains me to say it, I think his approach on the tax plan is necessary. While I'm not generally a proponent of tax increases, the regressive nature of taxation in Alabama is one of the root causes of the current crisis. But getting outside money into the state will be necessary, and that won't happen in a state led by the likes of Moore.

272 posted on 07/01/2003 8:46:45 PM PDT by lugsoul
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To: Dog Gone
Get off the Muslim thing and think about this again. How would you feel about some other religion putting a massive symbol of their religion in the lobby of your courthouse?

I can't [imagine] that you'd approve, especially considering the language of the First Amendment.

I wouldn't approve, and I don't approve of Moore's monument, either, though I think it's a stretch to say that either one would constitute an establishment of state religion. But on the other hand, I would not really be bothered by such a display -- it is certainly so unimportant that bringing suit on account of it is a waste of the courts' time & money. I don't approve of military or congressional chaplains -- which seem to me to go a lot further toward violating the 1st -- but it's hardly worth wasting breath or brain cells over it, either. There are so many more important unconstitutional undertakings.

And if a Muslim or Buddhist judge were ordered by an appeals court to remove some comparable symbol of their religion, I'd still be rooting for the judge to refuse to comply, because I am sick of the federal judiciary thinking that *they* are God.

273 posted on 07/01/2003 8:47:05 PM PDT by Sloth ("I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!" -- Jacobim Mugatu, 'Zoolander')
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To: Kevin Curry
I believe it was always intended by a most of our founders that the "Ultimate Law" was that of our christian God. Not that we have to have a church of england or a baptist, or Catholic(ect...) National religion, but that our country is still to based on Christian laws. If a person has not conscience of right and wrong before God and if they believe in no accountability before God then no amount of laws will make the world a safe and loving place. Because why would anyone care about anyone but themselve's? The only punishment in mans law is getting caught. If you belive in God's law then you will always get caught and someday answer to it. By taking God out of everything then you end up with people with no heart and no conscience. You end up with the mess in society that we have today. As we move closer and closer to this Godless society then only one thing is ceartin. We will be doomed by our own actions even if there were no judgement from God. Our country depended on that fabric...it will not survive without it. The courts in the past upheld these principles with that in mind. Not any more. No conjured up legal argument can change that basic fact. But if people don't have that in there hearts any longer then they will be doomed to do exactly what they are doing. Defending there conjured up arguments based not on what our country must have to survive, but on what they percive to be there very clever interpretations.
274 posted on 07/01/2003 8:48:13 PM PDT by Revel
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To: FreeLibertarian
This is the stuff of Lexington and Concord.

No it's not. This is about a publicity seeking politician trying to abuse the Ten Commandments and the Constitution to get himself elected.

It must suck being that cynical. Is it possible that perhaps one man has decided to defend his "line in the sand"?

275 posted on 07/01/2003 8:48:32 PM PDT by Centurion2000 (We are crushing our enemies, seeing him driven before us and hearing the lamentations of the liberal)
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To: muawiyah
You are funny. I resorted to name calling? After you accused men you know nothing about of wanting to cook Jews in ovens? And then implied the same of me? You are a joke.
276 posted on 07/01/2003 8:53:07 PM PDT by lugsoul
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To: Spiff
Spiff - tell us all about your theory. If the Utah Legislature decides to establish Mormonism as the state religion, and the SCOTUS says it is unconstitutional, why don't you explain to us all how the Utah Supreme Court can overrule the SCOTUS. That is exactly what you are saying.
277 posted on 07/01/2003 8:57:19 PM PDT by lugsoul
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To: Centurion2000
It must suck being that cynical. Is it possible that perhaps one man has decided to defend his "line in the sand"?

No it's not cynicism just experience. Beleive what you want but I choose not to be used. That's my line in the sand.

278 posted on 07/01/2003 9:06:36 PM PDT by FreeLibertarian (You live and learn. Or you don't live long.)
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To: lugsoul
What you did say was that my comment that Moore's election would be bad for the state meant that I "despise" the state. The implication is clearly that you don't agree. Perhaps you do.

I apoligize. I misread your post #52. I should have read post #48 to which you were responding.

I do not wish to have anyone from the legal system as my governor, now or in the future. That includes Roy Moore.

279 posted on 07/01/2003 9:11:59 PM PDT by auboy
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To: Chancellor Palpatine
He's a moron. A dolt. An idiot.

No that would be you.

This is not about the Ten Commandments, this is about our "Rights" guaranteed by the Constitution. Yes Justice Moore believes in the Ten Commandments, however he is using this in an attempt to stop the erosion of our rights.

280 posted on 07/01/2003 9:15:02 PM PDT by c-b 1
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To: TheCrusader
Can you imagine this happening here, in the United States? A person getting arrested on Federal felony charges for displaying the Ten Commandments? How much longer before Christians will be worshipping in the catacombs again? We need a President like Emperor Constantine, who will make Christianity legal again.

Can this be appealed to the SCOTUS? I am not learned in the ways of court appeals. (Not that it will do any good, the way things are going.)

I really do think that it is time for what might be termed "civil disobedience". The left likes that term, let them feel it from the other side, coming at them. If the 10 Commandments aren't allowed, maybe citizens can come daily and nail up new ones, one after another.

281 posted on 07/01/2003 9:15:40 PM PDT by First Amendment
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To: auboy
Thanks. I now see I apparently hit a wrong click as well. When I checked to see who I was first responding to, I obviously hit the wrong name because an Arizona flag popped up. If I'da known you were a 'Bamian, I would've left out the sarcasm.

I am hopeful that the state will get its act together. But as long as the government is dominated by the AEA, the plaintiff's lawyers, and the state employees union, I am doubtful.

282 posted on 07/01/2003 9:20:15 PM PDT by lugsoul
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To: Dog Gone
Would everyone here feel the same way if Judge Moore had placed a huge monument to the Koran on the courthouse lawn?

That would be akin to erecting a statue of Adolf Hitler.

283 posted on 07/01/2003 9:20:17 PM PDT by montag813
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To: pram
He will surely file an appeal. The SCOTUS gets to decide whether they want to take or not. They won't touch this one. Then it is over, and the decision of the 11th stands.
284 posted on 07/01/2003 9:21:57 PM PDT by lugsoul
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To: c-b 1
Which of your rights is Moore protecting with this display? And why wouldn't you have those rights without this display?
285 posted on 07/01/2003 9:23:22 PM PDT by lugsoul
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To: Chancellor Palpatine
He's a moron. A dolt. An idiot.

Opinions, opinions. Saying words loudly or offensively doesn't make them so.

On the contrary, I consider him a brave and honorable man, as he is willing to stand up to the authority of the courts because he considers them to be in the wrong, even at the risk of his career. And there are many who think the same.

286 posted on 07/01/2003 9:23:32 PM PDT by First Amendment
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To: Lurking Libertarian
He shouldn't have done it in the first place and he knew it. That's why he did it during the cover of night.
287 posted on 07/01/2003 9:24:14 PM PDT by Porterville (I support US total global, world domination; how's that for sensitive??)
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To: Lurking Libertarian
He shouldn't have done it in the first place and he knew it. That's why he did it during the cover of night.
288 posted on 07/01/2003 9:24:14 PM PDT by Porterville (I support US total global, world domination; how's that for sensitive??)
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To: pram
Oh, by the way - citizens can do it (as long as the state doesn't mind them nailing things up on state property). The state can't do it. And if the state lets citizens put them up, it can't pick and choose items from one religion to allow and not allow others.

This isn't about the Ten Commandments. It is about the state preferring one view over another.

289 posted on 07/01/2003 9:27:26 PM PDT by lugsoul
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To: lugsoul
I am hopeful that the state will get its act together. But as long as the government is dominated by the AEA, the plaintiff's lawyers, and the state employees union, I am doubtful.

Amen to that. AEA's Paul Hubbard IS the most powerful person in Alabama, I'm afraid.

Have a good night!

290 posted on 07/01/2003 9:28:47 PM PDT by auboy
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To: dogbyte12
A Buddhist lawyer or a Hindu defendent might feel that by the court's endorsement of the 10 commandments, it is prejudicial against them or their clients.

I am a Hindu and I would be honored by seeing the 10 commandments or any religious rules that help people become more faithful and moral. Sectarianism and atheism are the problems, not religion. This country was founded on basic religious principles, by mostly Christians, and the 10 commandments are held in honor by Jews and Christians alike, and are therefore have historical relevance. If I, as a Hindu don't mind, and in fact support such display, maybe a poll can be taken. (sarcasm)

Better yet, just read what the writers and signers of the Constitution thought about displaying the 10 Commandments.

291 posted on 07/01/2003 9:29:03 PM PDT by First Amendment
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To: Kevin Curry
Black is white, and up is down. There is a backlash developing. I intend to encourage it.

This, and the SCOTUS decisions this week - especially the sodomy one, are I HOPE waking people up. The slippery slope of moral relativism/leftist/homo-promoism/atheism has turned into a screaming nose dive.

292 posted on 07/01/2003 9:34:28 PM PDT by First Amendment
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To: TheCrusader
Nor is honoring God a bad thing. Who could possibly be intimidated or distressed by this beautiful moral code? Only the enemies of God.

Note my above post. Unfortunately, the atheists who hate God (can substitute "secretly fear that He may actually exist") are very numerous. And by removing any public reference to His existence, they hope to increase their numbers.

293 posted on 07/01/2003 9:39:26 PM PDT by First Amendment
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To: Kevin Curry
"Now to replace it with a statue of two men engaged in anal sodomy. "

Of a young buy wearing a Boy Scout uniform.



It seems our religion is once again under attack.
294 posted on 07/01/2003 9:41:36 PM PDT by PatrioticAmerican (If the only way an American can get elected is through Mexican votes, we have a war to be waged.)
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To: Lurking Libertarian
Insofar as it is a gross afront to the sovereignty of the State of Alabama for the United States to presume to dictate what kinds of statues Alabama chooses to have it its Supreme Court building, I would think it appropriate if Justice Moore and the Alabama State Police battled it out with the Federal marshals to see whether the statue would stand. There may be no other way to restore state sovereignty.

It is remarkable the degree to which the Federal courts are solicitous to invent any and all rights in derogation of state sovereignty, and utterly oblivious to the most fundamental rights of property of the citizens of the United States. The fathers of our country would weep and rage if they saw the perversion of their brilliant design.

295 posted on 07/01/2003 9:43:33 PM PDT by Iconoclast2
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To: Lurking Libertarian
This makes our Declaration if Independence in violation, our money inviolation, our oaths of office in violation, our country and our way of life in violation.
296 posted on 07/01/2003 9:44:50 PM PDT by PatrioticAmerican (If the only way we can be Americans is to hide that fact, it's time for war.)
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To: pram
Interesting post. Off topic: Tell me, is there any difference in your faith between homosexuality and any other form of non-procreative sex? Do you believe that the government should be involved in prohibiting all non-procreative sex?
297 posted on 07/01/2003 9:44:50 PM PDT by lugsoul
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To: freeangel
Not ever having a comparative religion class, I've often wondered which one of these rules for living(the big 10) could be offensive to other religions. Do those religions endorse murder, stealing from or lying to others? Maybe screwing someone elses wife--please fill me in about what makes these "rules" so intimidating to others.

I made a similar point above. Only a rabidly sectarian person or atheist would object. The 10 Commandments were essential to the founding of this country and even though some here might not call me a Christian (although it would make for an interesting discussion) I hold them dear, and the more people who try to follow them the better the world would be. I don't consider there is a "Christian God" or a "Jewish God" or a "Hindu God". "God" means the Supreme God, Supreme Being. Supreme means One.

298 posted on 07/01/2003 9:46:00 PM PDT by First Amendment
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To: Lurking Libertarian
Disgusting. As I see more and more of this going on, sometimes I wonder if Andrew Jackson was right, "The Supreme Court (well here the 11th "short" Circuit Court) made their decision, let them enforce it." What if the local court decided to "flip 'em the bird" and say, we are keeping the Ten Commandments up? I dunno, I'm just blowing off steam here, but it seems like these libertines are getting their way, sometimes I wonder if we actually won the Cold War, militarily yes, economically yes, spiritually and ethically, no.

IIRC, the 11th Circuit is the one that signed Elian Gonzales to his fate three years ago, so why should I be surprised.
299 posted on 07/01/2003 9:47:08 PM PDT by Nowhere Man ("Laws are the spider webs through which the big bugs fly past and the little ones get caught.")
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To: lugsoul; TLBSHOW; sweetliberty; The Ghost of Richard Nixon; yonif


300 posted on 07/01/2003 9:48:40 PM PDT by MatthewViti
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