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Ala. Judge Loses Ten Commandments Appeal
Washington Post ^ | July 1, 2003 | Associated Press

Posted on 07/01/2003 2:47:12 PM PDT by Lurking Libertarian

ATLANTA - A federal appeals court ruled Tuesday that a Ten Commandments monument the size of a washing machine must be removed from the Alabama Supreme Court building.

The 11th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals unanimously affirmed a ruling by a federal judge who said that the 2 1/2-ton granite monument, placed there by Alabama Chief Justice Roy Moore, violates the constitutional separation of church and state.

[snip]

Moore put the monument in the rotunda of the courthouse in the middle of the night two summers ago. The monument features tablets bearing the Ten Commandments and historical quotations about the place of God in law.

[click link to read remainder of article]

(Excerpt) Read more at washingtonpost.com ...


TOPICS: Breaking News; Constitution/Conservatism; Front Page News; US: Alabama
KEYWORDS: churchandstate; roymoore; tencommandments
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I've read the decision-- it includes a strongly-worded warning to Judge Moore not to try to defy the court's order.

The decision is by Judge Carnes, a Bush Sr. appointee. The two concurring judges were appointed by Clinton and Reagan.

1 posted on 07/01/2003 2:47:13 PM PDT by Lurking Libertarian
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To: Lurking Libertarian
The decision is by Judge Carnes, a Bush Sr. appointee. The two concurring judges were appointed by Clinton and Reagan.

Great. We're getting screwed by our own guys...

2 posted on 07/01/2003 2:49:55 PM PDT by SunStar (Democrats piss me off!)
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To: Lurking Libertarian
Now to replace it with a statue of two men engaged in anal sodomy.
3 posted on 07/01/2003 2:52:10 PM PDT by Kevin Curry
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To: Lurking Libertarian; Prof Engineer
ping
4 posted on 07/01/2003 2:52:41 PM PDT by msdrby (If you are not part of the solution, you are in the way. Get outta the way!)
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To: Lurking Libertarian
I've read the decision-- it includes a strongly-worded warning to Judge Moore not to try to defy the court's order.

So Federal judges see where this is going. One of them should have the guts to stop it before there is wide spread defiance.

5 posted on 07/01/2003 2:59:41 PM PDT by DPB101
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To: Kevin Curry
"Now to replace it with a statue of two men engaged in anal sodomy."

This would be considered as "art", and protected under the First Amendment. Freedom of Speech for Christians isn't allowed.

6 posted on 07/01/2003 3:00:18 PM PDT by TheCrusader
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To: Lurking Libertarian
Screw 'em - let the Court of Appeals' army come get it. Rat bastards.
7 posted on 07/01/2003 3:02:02 PM PDT by GreatOne (You will bow down before me, Son of Jor-el!)
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To: Lurking Libertarian
The 11th Circuit never did cotton to Jews and their religion anywy.

Those ol'boys have probably invested in a gas oven manufacturer anyway on the outside chance that they can make a killing.

8 posted on 07/01/2003 3:02:19 PM PDT by muawiyah
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To: muawiyah
Where in the hell does that slanderous crap come from?
9 posted on 07/01/2003 3:04:57 PM PDT by lugsoul
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To: DPB101
Chester County Pennsylvania will be taking the drape off the 10 Commandment plaque on the courthouse. The 1920's gift hung there without a problem until the "Free Thought Society" wanted it down. The court found in favor of the
county keeping the plaque on the wall. The neighbors of the Free Thought Society leader put signs in each of their yards so the lady could see them every which way. I see them all over the county.
10 posted on 07/01/2003 3:06:51 PM PDT by oldironsides
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To: Kevin Curry
Now to replace it with a statue of two men engaged in anal sodomy

Or two men engaged in oral sex, of better yet a man giving oral sex to a male child.

This would warm the cockles of every alcu member's heart.

11 posted on 07/01/2003 3:06:52 PM PDT by sport
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To: DPB101
So Federal judges see where this is going.

According to the court's opinion, Moore filed his own brief, in which he stated that, as Chief Justice of Alabama, he would have the final say as to whether the 11th Circuit's order was constitutional or not. Federal judges, including (especially?) conservative ones, do not take kindly to threats that their decisions will be defied, so they added some very pointed language saying that they "expect" Judge Moore to comply with their decision unless it is reversed by the Supreme Court, but that, "If necessary the court order will be enforced." That discussion is accompanied by citations to the court decisions from 1962 and 1963 which forced Governors Wallace and Barnett to obey school desegregation orders.

12 posted on 07/01/2003 3:10:19 PM PDT by Lurking Libertarian (Non sub homine, sed sub Deo et lege)
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To: muawiyah
"The 11th Circuit never did cotton to Jews and their religion anywy. Those ol'boys have probably invested in a gas oven manufacturer anyway on the outside chance that they can make a killing."

The Ten Commandments are every bit as much a part of the Christian religion as the Jewish religion. The Ten Commandments are taught in every Sunday School and Catholic CCD class in America.

13 posted on 07/01/2003 3:10:34 PM PDT by TheCrusader
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To: Lurking Libertarian
oooh...a warning not to defy. Ooh I am scared.

Tell them to go screw themselves Mr. Moore.

lol
14 posted on 07/01/2003 3:11:25 PM PDT by rwfromkansas ("There is dust enough on some of your Bibles to write 'damnation' with your fingers." C.H. Spurgeon)
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To: Lurking Libertarian
I hope Moore ignores them. Let's see the court enforce its own order. The bastards deserve to be hung for treason.
15 posted on 07/01/2003 3:14:41 PM PDT by rwfromkansas ("There is dust enough on some of your Bibles to write 'damnation' with your fingers." C.H. Spurgeon)
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To: rwfromkansas
Tell them to go screw themselves Mr. Moore.

If he does that, the court will hold him in contempt and order the Federal Marshal's Service to arrest him. I doubt that even Ashcroft will order the Marshalls to disobey the court. After all, most of the time the Department of Justice is the one that wants federal court orders obeyed.

16 posted on 07/01/2003 3:15:11 PM PDT by Lurking Libertarian (Non sub homine, sed sub Deo et lege)
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To: lugsoul
"Slanderous"?

Certainly you jest. The Ten Commandments has a singular and very clear source ~ it was part and parcel of the received truths handed down by Moses to the Hebrew people. Attacks on the Ten Commandments are invariably associated with attacks on Judaism.

Leftwingers and Liberals have been indulging themselves in anti-semitism in recent years, most noticeably in Europe, but also in this country. Unless they are called to account they will not stop just because they are on a federal court of appeals.

Besides, it's really not a legitimate act of any governmental body or official in this country to decide what is or is not religion. Those judges may have their own prejudices and personal beliefs, but they have no right to impose them on the rest of us.

The 11th Circuit cannot be respected by any honest citizen.

17 posted on 07/01/2003 3:19:42 PM PDT by muawiyah
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To: TheCrusader
That's your narrow sectarian belief. You have no right to use a federal court to impose it on me, and if you do attempt it, both you and the judges you mislead can fairly be accused of being bigots.
18 posted on 07/01/2003 3:22:09 PM PDT by muawiyah
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To: Lurking Libertarian
Would everyone here feel the same way if Judge Moore had placed a huge monument to the Koran on the courthouse lawn?
19 posted on 07/01/2003 3:22:43 PM PDT by Dog Gone
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To: Lurking Libertarian
"If he does that, the court will hold him in contempt and order the Federal Marshal's Service to arrest him."

Can you imagine this happening here, in the United States? A person getting arrested on Federal felony charges for displaying the Ten Commandments? How much longer before Christians will be worshipping in the catacombs again? We need a President like Emperor Constantine, who will make Christianity legal again.

20 posted on 07/01/2003 3:22:45 PM PDT by TheCrusader
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To: Lurking Libertarian
That was no surprise. Bucks to donuts he twists the tiger's tail - ever to his regret, too.
21 posted on 07/01/2003 3:23:15 PM PDT by Chancellor Palpatine
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To: Lurking Libertarian
That court is tyrannnical. How can they order another branch of govt. what to do?
22 posted on 07/01/2003 3:25:45 PM PDT by rwfromkansas ("There is dust enough on some of your Bibles to write 'damnation' with your fingers." C.H. Spurgeon)
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To: Lurking Libertarian
[Amendment I (Ratified Effective December 15, 1791): Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of the speech, or of the press, or the right of the people to peacably assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.]

This raises the question. Is the judge, by placing the ten commandments in the courtroom prohibiting the free exercise of other religions? For all rights are equal until they impede upon another man's rights. This is why freedom of press is viable until the publication suppresses another's freedom of speech. If the answer to the above question is yes, the judge's ruling was what the Constitution of our great nation called for. Further evidence must be understood before making a hasty generalization, so I am off to study this case
23 posted on 07/01/2003 3:25:51 PM PDT by Derrald
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To: Lurking Libertarian
Here's a link to the decision in PDF format. "Strongly worded" is an understatement.

http://www.ca11.uscourts.gov/opinions/ops/200216708.pdf
24 posted on 07/01/2003 3:27:15 PM PDT by Catspaw
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To: rwfromkansas
That court is tyrannnical. How can they order another branch of govt. what to do?

What other branch are you referring to?

25 posted on 07/01/2003 3:27:52 PM PDT by Dog Gone
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To: Derrald
Chief Justice Moore had the 10 Commandments in his courtroom before he was elected to the Alabama Supreme Court. This is a large chunk of engraved granite just inside the entryway in the State Supreme Court building.
26 posted on 07/01/2003 3:29:07 PM PDT by Catspaw
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To: Derrald
I am off to study this case

You can find a link to the full decision here (scroll down to 2:50 p.m. on today's date).

27 posted on 07/01/2003 3:29:15 PM PDT by Lurking Libertarian (Non sub homine, sed sub Deo et lege)
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To: Kevin Curry
Now to replace it with a statue of two men engaged in anal sodomy.

SCOTUS would approve it 5 to 4.

We are sure leaving our children a wonderful world. </sarcasm off.

28 posted on 07/01/2003 3:31:03 PM PDT by zip
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To: muawiyah
Besides, it's really not a legitimate act of any governmental body or official in this country to decide what is or is not religion. Those judges may have their own prejudices and personal beliefs, but they have no right to impose them on the rest of us.


Does that mean you think we should all be able to start a religion and get tax exemption?
29 posted on 07/01/2003 3:31:25 PM PDT by KCmark (I am NOT a partisan.)
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To: Lurking Libertarian
As Michael Savage would say, the stench from the bench is making me clench.
30 posted on 07/01/2003 3:32:53 PM PDT by jpl
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To: Chancellor Palpatine
Bucks to donuts he twists the tiger's tail - ever to his regret, too.

After reading the opinion, the Court of Appeals is not kidding around.

31 posted on 07/01/2003 3:33:41 PM PDT by Catspaw
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To: muawiyah
"That's your narrow sectarian belief. You have no right to use a federal court to impose it on me, and if you do attempt it, both you and the judges you mislead can fairly be accused of being bigots".

Ah, here we go with the worn out "bigot" label again. The Ten Commandments appear on the walls of the U.S. Supreme Court, and in the halls of hundreds and hundreds of other Courts, City Halls, State Legislature Buildings, and other public buildings. The U.S. Senate begins each daily session with the "Lord's Prayer", as given by Jesus Christ in the New Testament. The fingerprints of Christianity are all over the foundation, walls and documents of our government. From the 1st Continental Congress' Declaration for a National Day of Prayer, to President Abraham Lincoln's national holiday of Thanksgiving to God, to President Harry Truman's national radio address where he called the United States a "Christian Nation". George Washington also said that the "office of Christian is ever higher than that of Patriot". Bigot? I'm in some pretty good company. btw, the mere display of Christian or Jewish religious icons in no way forces one to convert or believe in them. I think your phoney "fears" are a cover for something you're too afraid to admit.

32 posted on 07/01/2003 3:34:11 PM PDT by TheCrusader
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To: sweetliberty
ping. You wondered what are options are if all else fails, we may find out soon in Alabama. Something tells me that judge Moore is not gonna take the 10 Commandments Down.
33 posted on 07/01/2003 3:34:30 PM PDT by Ahban
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To: Lurking Libertarian
I've read the decision-- it includes a strongly-worded warning to Judge Moore not to try to defy the court's order.

Then let the asshat judges come and enforce their ruling.

34 posted on 07/01/2003 3:34:57 PM PDT by Spiff (Liberalism is a mental illness - a precursor disease to terminal Socialism.)
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To: Spiff
Then let the asshat judges come and enforce their ruling.

After reading the decision, I do believe that's exactly what they're going to do if Chief Justice Moore does not comply with the court order.

35 posted on 07/01/2003 3:36:36 PM PDT by Catspaw
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To: Ahban
I think he has already said he will not take them down. Whatever happened to the purchasing of the property they sit on by private parties?
36 posted on 07/01/2003 3:36:42 PM PDT by sweetliberty ("Having the right to do a thing is not at all the same thing as being right in doing it.")
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To: sweetliberty
Whatever happened to the purchasing of the property they sit on by private parties?

Kind of hard for private parties to buy the rotunda of the courthouse.

37 posted on 07/01/2003 3:38:07 PM PDT by Lurking Libertarian (Non sub homine, sed sub Deo et lege)
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To: Lurking Libertarian
I thought it sat outside the courthouse, or was that another case? Or maybe I just misunderstood.
38 posted on 07/01/2003 3:39:57 PM PDT by sweetliberty ("Having the right to do a thing is not at all the same thing as being right in doing it.")
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To: Catspaw
He's a moron. A dolt. An idiot.

Its farcical that he even defended it that way. And he is Chief Justice of the Alabama Supreme Court???????

39 posted on 07/01/2003 3:40:05 PM PDT by Chancellor Palpatine
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To: Catspaw
After reading the decision, I do believe that's exactly what they're going to do if Chief Justice Moore does not comply with the court order.

Robes and all? I hope they put it on pay-per-view. Do you think the judges can lift the granite by themselves or will they drive a forklift or something?

40 posted on 07/01/2003 3:40:48 PM PDT by Spiff (Liberalism is a mental illness - a precursor disease to terminal Socialism.)
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To: sweetliberty
They are placed inside the rotunda of the Alabama Supreme Court:

Back    1 : 2 : 3 : 4 : 5 : 6 : 7 : 8 : 9 : 10    Foward
U.S. District Judge Myron Thompson looks over the Ten Commandments monument inside the Alabama Judicial Building Oct. 1. Thompson is the judge in the trial that will decide whether the monument can remain in the Montgomery building.
Kevin Glackmeyer, Advertiser

41 posted on 07/01/2003 3:41:00 PM PDT by Catspaw
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To: Catspaw; Texaggie79
After he got out of jail for contempt, he would run for Gov. or AG and win in a landslide.
42 posted on 07/01/2003 3:41:18 PM PDT by Sir Gawain
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To: Lurking Libertarian
So what will happen to the 10 Commandments on the door in the Supreme Court building in Washington, D.C.?
43 posted on 07/01/2003 3:41:21 PM PDT by FreedomCalls (It's the "Statue of Liberty," not the "Statue of Security.")
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To: Kevin Curry
Now to replace it with a statue of two men engaged in anal sodomy.

Whatever Kevin. Full blown hysterics doesn't help much does it? A Buddhist lawyer or a Hindu defendent might feel that by the court's endorsement of the 10 commandments, it is prejudicial against them or their clients.

A juror walks into the building, sees the religious monument, and then sees a defendant of a different faith, and a connection is made subconsciously, that the fellow is guilty, because he worships one of these heathen religions.

Nobody is stopping Alabaman's from worshipping God, the courts just don't like the undue influence this has on potential jurors who might take the person's faith in mind more readily, with the religious reminder of their faith when they enter the court house.

Oh.. but it is much more fun to run around and talk about statues of sodomites. Statues of Krishna is more apropos. Would you feel comfortable in a courthouse, where the population to begin with was mostly Hindu, you were accused of committing a crime against a Hindu, and the judge has placed a shrine to Krishna or Shiva in full view of the jury? Think outside the box. It works.

44 posted on 07/01/2003 3:41:41 PM PDT by dogbyte12
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To: Spiff
Robes and all? I hope they put it on pay-per-view. Do you think the judges can lift the granite by themselves or will they drive a forklift or something?

Think US Marshals. A whole bunch of them. With trucks and forklifts and whatever else they need.

45 posted on 07/01/2003 3:42:14 PM PDT by Catspaw
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To: rwfromkansas
Is cussing the best way to show your support for the ten commandments and religion in general?
46 posted on 07/01/2003 3:42:42 PM PDT by Diddle E. Squat
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To: muawiyah
"Those ol'boys have probably invested in a gas oven manufacturer anyway on the outside chance that they can make a killing."

That's your beyond-the-pale statement. If you want to call it an attack on Judaism, that's your own uninformed opinion. Perhaps you should actually READ the opinion - take special note of footnote #3 - and tell us how all of those parts of the opinion finding that the exaltation of Christian aspects of the monument above all others are violative of the Establishment Clause constitute an attack on Judaism.

You and your uninformed opinions deserve the respect of no honest man. And your statement that these judges want to participate in holocaust-style killing is low-class stupid drivel.

47 posted on 07/01/2003 3:42:45 PM PDT by lugsoul
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To: Sir Gawain
After he got out of jail for contempt, he would run for Gov. or AG and win in a landslide.

Given that he's a relatively young man, I'm sure he's already got the "Moore for Governor" committe formed.

48 posted on 07/01/2003 3:43:29 PM PDT by Catspaw
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To: Catspaw
"that's exactly what they're going to do if Chief Justice Moore does not comply with the court order. "
Well, they'll let him appeal to the Supreme Court first.

I assume that body with the Ten Commandments on it's walls will...


...refuse to hear it LOL!

49 posted on 07/01/2003 3:46:50 PM PDT by mrsmith
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To: Lurking Libertarian
1st Amendment: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."

How does a copy of the Ten Commandments violate this clause?

Note: "separation of church and state" is not a constitutional principle...the "Wall" is not in the Constitution

50 posted on 07/01/2003 3:47:00 PM PDT by LiteKeeper
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