CA: Sailors take citizenship oath after Persian Gulf war mission

Sac Bee ^ | 7/2/03 | Elliot Spagat - AP

[NormsRevenge]

CORONADO, Calif. (AP) - One month after sailing home from war in Iraq, dozens of sailors from the USS Constellation celebrated a second homecoming Wednesday. They became U.S. citizens.

In all, 216 Navy men and women from 42 countries took the oath of citizenship aboard the 41-year-old warship, which will be decommissioned next month. About 170 of them were assigned to the Constellation, which returned June 2 from a six-month assignment in the Persian Gulf.

[Dr. Frank fan]

Welcome to my new, and more worthy, fellow countrymen.

[Dante3]

It is a security security risk to have foreigners in our military. What an efficient way for enemy agents to get training as well as information about our armed forces and infiltrate them.

Please don't tell me all of them joined the militray because they love us. The couple I know of joined for financial and other personal benefits. And we can't expect them to love us if they know very little about us or have an image from demented TV shows and Hollywood films.

[xrp]

It is a security security risk to have foreigners in our military. What an efficient way for enemy agents to get training as well as information about our armed forces and infiltrate them.

Would you care to comment on John Muhammad, American citizen and Gulf War I veteran? How about the wonderful American citizen who is/was in the Armed Forces and tossed a grenade into his commander's tent during Gulf War II, killing two American soldiers?

[Focault's Pendulum]

It is a security security risk to have foreigners in our military.

Sometimes...my friend...the glass is half full...not half empty.

[LadyDoc]

My husband fought for the Americans in WWII. He didn't become a citizen until the early 1950's. Several of his nephews joined the Navy served for 20 plus years and are now retired. You think they are less patriotic than you are?
Non citizens fighting for America is nothing new. My great great grand uncle fought for the Union in the Civil War before he was a citizen.

[cavtrooper21]

Hey, Mr. All American, I have one name for you
Cyril Richard Rescorla
http//www.lzxray.com
Read about him and tell us again about security risks...

[mdittmar]

Welcome home Sailors,

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame, With conquering limbs astride from land to land; Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame. ``Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she With silent lips. ``Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me. I lift my lamp beside the golden door."
written by Emma Lazarus, 1883

[MineralMan]

"It is a security security risk to have foreigners in our military. What an efficient way for enemy agents to get training as well as information about our armed forces and infiltrate them."

Our military has always had immigrants in it. Often they become citizens, having joined the military for the benefit of speeding up their naturalization.

In the meantime, they have served, possibly risked their lives to protect our Constitution. I honor them.

When did you serve?

[MineralMan]

"Would you care to comment on John Muhammad, American citizen and Gulf War I veteran? How about the wonderful American citizen who is/was in the Armed Forces and tossed a grenade into his commander's tent during Gulf War II, killing two American soldiers?"

And would you care to comment on the non-citizen soldiers who have won the Congressional Medal of Honor? There have been several.

When did you serve?

[LibKill]

I served in the USMC with a few marines who had green cards (have to have the green card to join).

Most of them did very well, the ones who did not succumbed to the same vices that got citizens busted out of the Corps.

Honorable service in our armed forces should be a path to citizenship. If they will serve and fight for us, they are ours.

[NewRomeTacitus]

While a nice sentiment too many politicians have mistaken Lazarus’ poem for desirable policy. Her words are better suited to an ideal afterlife.
The sergeant who fragged his officers was an American-raised convert to Islam. He said that his fellow soldiers were there to take the oil and rape the women (pervasive Islamic propaganda line) while every moment of his existence told his rational side otherwise.
There is no proper place in the military for unstable personnel. Recognize the mental illness for what it is and boot the Chaplains of Allah.

[mdittmar]

nice sentiment?

Tell it to their families..

Pfc. Francisco Martinez Flores, 21, was killed in Iraq on March 25, just two weeks before he was to become a U.S. citizen.
“He loved this country so much. All he had left to do to become a citizen was the actual induction ceremony,” said his younger sister, Nayeli Martinez, 20. Flores was granted citizenship posthumously.

Jose Angel Garibay came across the border from Mexico in the arms of a stranger when he was two months old. Armando Ariel Gonzalez set off from Cuba as a teenager, paddling a small boat with his father and brother to reach the Florida shores. Jose Gutierrez traveled 2,000 miles from Guatemala City—walking, hitching rides, and jumping on freight trains—to get to California. All three risked their lives to come to America. Then they gave their lives fighting for it.

[ahadams2]

hmm, that's a very interesting opinion, how much time did you spend in which service to come up with it?

[xrp]

You asking me or the other guy? I support foreigners in the US Armed Forces, but only for a small percentage.

[NewRomeTacitus]

The minimum of military time served to establish limited citizenship should be no less than two years. That weeds out the "washouts" and opportunists attempting to find an easy ride. I'm all out of sympathy for aliens and their never-ending families and need for what we earned and built. Now that states are giving over to the corruption by granting driver's licenses (defacto Citizenship documents) I feel no remorse for burying my last respect for my state government (Tennessee). Most of the immigrants are sincere, granted, but the cynical pimping by recruiters doesn't weed out the worthless or dangerous.

[truth_seeker]

"My great great grand uncle fought for the Union in the Civil War before he was a citizen."

Mine did, too. (Not sure of how many "greats" and how you do that). Name was Samuel Patterson Starratt, later residing in Anoka, Minnesota. His house stands as an historic site.

He was blinded for life in battle, and lived out a long life, in further service to his adopted country, and to God.

[Dante3]

I never said every one of them is a security risk. But what a great way to place sleeper agents. Overall, it is a great risk, especailly when it comes with promises of automatic citizenship. Why not first earn citizenship?

[MalcolmS]

Service Guarantees Citizenship Bump

Do You Want to Know More?

In Ancient Rome
http://members.tripod.com/~S_van_Dorst/legio.html

In The Future (Robert A. Heinlein's Starship Troopers: Excellent philosophical take, plus future military history and some bug killing thrown in)
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0441783589

In The Movies (Director Verhoeven turns Heinlein's essentially libertarian book into a movie about militarily-incompetent Nazi's of the future. Lots of bug guts!)
http://www.leisuresuit.net/Webzine/articles/GMOTW_16.shtml

[MineralMan]

"You asking me or the other guy? I support foreigners in the US Armed Forces, but only for a small percentage."

Sorry, my error. It was the other guy. While our brave and loyal military folks are fighting, he's whining about non-citizens in the military. I was just curious about _his_ service.

[MineralMan]

"I never said every one of them is a security risk. "

So, you must have some examples, right? Why don't you list those non-citizen military folks who have compromised security?

And, when did you serve?

[ArrogantBustard]

I was just curious about _his_ service.

Why is it relevant? Either non-citizens in the military are a security risk or they aren't. That question should be addressed by examining the facts of the case, rather than the character (or lack thereof) of the person making the arguement.

Since non-citizens have served in the US military since the beginning, there is a wealth of facts available to address the topic. Either non-citizens have disproportionately been a security risk or they haven't.

If you are able, obtain a copy of the Sunday Washington Post and examine the job ads for various military and intelligence community contractors. You will often see requirements that the applicant be a US Citizen. There must be a reason for that. Perhaps in some cases non-citizens are considered a security risk.

[rabidralph]

Please don't tell me all of them joined the militray because they love us.

I did. I came to America when I was 2. I became a citizen when I was 25 and I joined the Navy when I was 26. I lived here long enough to see that this was the freest, most prosperous nation in the world and I wanted to honor my dreams by becoming a citizen and giving back to this country, which has given me so much. I'm sorry, if you don't believe that such a thing could be possible.

[MineralMan]

"If you are able, obtain a copy of the Sunday Washington Post and examine the job ads for various military and intelligence community contractors. You will often see requirements that the applicant be a US Citizen. There must be a reason for that. Perhaps in some cases non-citizens are considered a security risk.
"

And the military has many restrictions on the jobs non-citizen soldiers may hold. They cannot be officers, for example.

My reason for asking about the other poster's military service is that he has no information to post regarding any actual security problems caused by any non-citizen soldier. He has only his own "feelings" that they pose a security risk. Had he served, which I assume he did not, he would have encountered some of our non-citizen soldiers, and would know that those who join the military are rarely a risk. They serve, primarily, as low-level enlisted personnel, or grunts, if you will.

Aside from that, if this poster is so concerned with the citizenship of our military, then I suggest he help fill the gap by enlisting.

Until he can come up with some concrete evidence of problems caused by non-citizen soldiers, then I also suggest that he refrain from posting his vague "feelings."

[MineralMan]

http://usmilitary.about.com/library/milinfo/faq/blnoncitizen.htm


Here's some info on non-citizens joining the military. There's a long history of non-citizens serving in our military over the years, and their service has been honorable.

As far as I'm concerned, any immigrant who is willing to put his/her life on the line in our military deserves citizenship.

Google the term "non-citizen military" and you'll find a lot of pages about the honorable service done by many non-citizens. What you won't find are any stories about such people compromising our national security.

[ArrogantBustard]

The first part of your answer to me is highly responsive and fact filled. This in particular:

And the military has many restrictions on the jobs non-citizen soldiers may hold. They cannot be officers, for example.

In effect, the military does consider them a security risk. It places restrictions on the sort of jobs they may hold, in order to mitigate that security risk. From this it does not, however, follow that they pose an unacceptable security risk, under the current system.

Again, the prior or current military service of any parties to this discussion is irrelevant. Just the facts, sir.

[MineralMan]

"Again, the prior or current military service of any parties to this discussion is irrelevant. Just the facts, sir.
"

That, sir, is your opinion. It is not mine. When someone criticizes our military, I always ask the question about their own service.

Since it is the judgment of our military leaders and our government that non-citizens may serve in our military and gain citizenship priority from that service, I consider the posters remarks to be a criticism of the military.

While it is his right to criticize the military, certainly, the matter of his service or non-service is pertinent. If he has served, then he has some information regarding military service that one who has not served does not. If he has not served, then his knowledge of the military is limited and affects his ability to comment intelligently on military service.

The reality of the issue is that non-citizens who serve in the military do not constitute a security risk to our military. I could find no instance where such a service member has compromised security.

Indeed, such service personnel are limited in their service to enlisted status. That makes sense. Once they gain their citizenship, they are no longer so restricted, and they can gain their citizenship more quickly through service.

I'll tell you this: Given the choice between trusting someone who enlisted in our military as a non-citizen and who served honorably and someone who was born here but did not serve in the military, I'll choose the former every time.

Military service is an honorable thing, and I believe that my respect is due those who serve honorably through a term of enlistment. Those who have not served must earn my respect in other ways.

[ArrogantBustard]

The reality of the issue is that non-citizens who serve in the military do not constitute a security risk to our military. I could find no instance where such a service member has compromised security.

Then open the officer corps to them, and give 'em all Top Secret BlahBlah clearances. No? Then they do constitute a risk, which is effectively mitigated by restricting them to the 'grunt' MOS.

Indeed, such service personnel are limited in their service to enlisted status.

And why would our military establishment so limit them? Hatred? Bigotry? Random spitefulness? Rationally decided risk mitigation strategy? Hmmmm.... choices, choices.

The other fellow was, in effect, saying that non-citizens in the military pose an unacceptable (to him, anyway) security risk. I'm saying, and you're agreeing although you don't seem to realize it, that they pose a risk which is acceptable given certain risk mitigation strategies.

The facts of the matter, with which I am solely concerned, seem to bear out my contention.

[Dante3]

You make my point. You were not a foreigner. You were an American citizen when you joined the Navy. You had learned to value what this country has to offer.

[1rudeboy]

Bear in mind that the argument here is not about whether foreign nationals serving in our military are a security-risk, rather it is an argument about whether foreign nationals serving in our military present a higher security-risk than U.S. citizens.

[1rudeboy]

oops . . . I am not being clear. What I meant to add was, if one wants to make the argument that foreigners are a security-risk, then one must establish that foreigners are a greater security-risk. Equal don't count. [sic]

[MineralMan]

"oops . . . I am not being clear. What I meant to add was, if one wants to make the argument that foreigners are a security-risk, then one must establish that foreigners are a greater security-risk. Equal don't count. [sic]
"

I understood. And you're right. By not allowing non-citizens to hold positions that are sensitive, we solve that problem in our military. In the positions where they can serve, I can see no particular risk from non-citizen soldiers.

Given the long, long history of non-citizen soldiers, I'd guess that we'd know by now.

[1rudeboy]

bttt