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CA: Dear cost of `cheap' labor for state - California can't ignore its enormous impact
Mercury News ^ | 7/8/03 | Dan Stein

Posted on 07/08/2003 11:25:13 AM PDT by NormsRevenge

Edited on 04/13/2004 3:31:32 AM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

There is no simple or single explanation for the kind of gaping budget deficit currently facing California. However, it would be naive in the extreme to ignore the impact of large-scale legal and illegal immigration on a $38.2 billion shortfall in this year's state budget.


(Excerpt) Read more at bayarea.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Culture/Society; Editorial; Government; Politics/Elections; US: California
KEYWORDS: 1darkside; calgov2002; california; cheaplabor; cost; darkside; darksideillegalalien; enormous; ignore; immigration; impact; zdarkside
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DAN STEIN is executive director of the Federation for American Immigration Reform - FAIR. He wrote this for the Mercury News.
1 posted on 07/08/2003 11:25:13 AM PDT by NormsRevenge
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
FAIR Ping
2 posted on 07/08/2003 11:25:43 AM PDT by NormsRevenge (Semper Fi..Support FR . "California-Fighting the rising tide of socialism" . http://www.DRAFTTom.com)
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3 posted on 07/08/2003 11:26:50 AM PDT by Support Free Republic (Your support keeps Free Republic going strong!)
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To: NormsRevenge
Actually, the average cost of primary education in California is more like $7,500 per child.
4 posted on 07/08/2003 11:29:35 AM PDT by mvpel (Michael Pelletier)
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To: NormsRevenge
Great article.
5 posted on 07/08/2003 11:31:53 AM PDT by Eva
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To: NormsRevenge
They should rename California to 'Gaza'... it's amazing how efficiently we are creating our own Israeli-Arab crisis here, except it's now an American-Mexican crisis.

At some point the world is going to settle the question of demographic colonization, and it's not going to be pretty. I hope for our sakes that we don't adopt the French approach.
6 posted on 07/08/2003 11:46:06 AM PDT by thoughtomator (Abort, Retry, Ignore, Fail?)
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To: NormsRevenge
Too bad nobody in Silicon Valley will care about this article. They're too interested in "Diversity" down there.
7 posted on 07/08/2003 11:46:54 AM PDT by superloser
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To: NormsRevenge
Excellent article. I only wish the author would have done more research and determined how much illegal immigration costs the state government and the CA economy. The lefties and some Hispanic groups are always opining how much the "undocumented" workers "contribute" to the economy...please restrain your laughter!!! I think I'll email this article to all elected officials in Sacramento.
8 posted on 07/08/2003 11:56:28 AM PDT by kellynla ("C" 1/5 1st Mar Div Viet Nam '69 & '70 Semper Fi)
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To: NormsRevenge
Great Article.

This is what the right often forgets. Low wages cost the taxpayers of this nation a great deal. Wall-Mart like companies pay so little that most of their hard working employees receive tons of bennifits from the tax payers. They receive Food Stamps (up to $500 / month), energy assistance (up to $200 / month) free medical care for their children ($500 / child / month) a Tax Refund of $4,000 / year on taxes they didn't pay. They recieve free care for them selves and many other bennifite if they get really sick and need long term Hospital care.

This means that $6.04 / hour is costing the taxpayers of the nation another $5.00 / hour or so.

Does Wall-Mart and all other low wage paying employers really need this kind of Welfare???
9 posted on 07/08/2003 11:58:42 AM PDT by ImphClinton
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To: NormsRevenge
Good article but this is nonsense...

There is no simple or single explanation for the kind of gaping budget deficit currently facing California

Can you say "Too much SPENDING?

10 posted on 07/08/2003 11:59:06 AM PDT by Drango (Just 5 a day will end pledge drives on FreeRepublic.)
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To: NormsRevenge
I'm shocked this was in the murky news. SHOCKED! Is it in the print edition? Will Dan Stein have to go to jail for un-pc views?
11 posted on 07/08/2003 12:01:24 PM PDT by I_Love_My_Husband
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To: kellynla
The state should call out the California National Guard, put check points on all road to the Nevada and Arizona borders, start at the Oregon border and sweep south foot by foot, arresting and deporting every illegal found, until they reach the Mexican border. At which point, the border should be fortified.

Get rid of all the illegals, deny citizenship to children born in the US to illegals, reinstitute a bracero-type program for legal working immigrants (no families), and California would be governable again. No more Spanish language, no more harrassment of anglos, no more Aztlan nonsense.

12 posted on 07/08/2003 12:04:13 PM PDT by CatoRenasci (Ceterum Censeo [Gallia][Germania][Arabia] Esse Delendam --- Select One or More as needed)
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To: I_Love_My_Husband
Yup.. Right hand column, Opinions, page 7B
13 posted on 07/08/2003 12:07:31 PM PDT by NormsRevenge (Semper Fi..Support FR . "California-Fighting the rising tide of socialism" . http://www.DRAFTTom.com)
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To: NormsRevenge
what a lousy choice........hire an illegal for low wage cash or hire a citizen and pay enough fees and taxes to make it impossible to make a profit. When wages, pay scales, and taxes become more realistic, employers will no longer have to seek out ways to keep costs down and profits up.........the problem needs to be addressed from the other end.......cutting down on over-regulation and never-ending govermental fees will greatly reduce the demand for cheap cash labor.......
14 posted on 07/08/2003 12:07:36 PM PDT by sfvgt
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To: NormsRevenge; *calgov2002; PeoplesRep_of_LA; Canticle_of_Deborah; snopercod; Grampa Dave; ...
Reform eh?

calgov2002:

calgov2002: for old calgov2002 articles. 

calgov2002: for new calgov2002 articles. 

Other Bump Lists at: Free Republic Bump List Register



15 posted on 07/08/2003 12:08:22 PM PDT by Ernest_at_the_Beach (Recall Gray Davis and then start on the other Democrats)
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To: CatoRenasci
Well you can wake up now from your dream, Cato. Because, unfortunately, until there is a full scale invasion there is zero chance of the National Guard being posted at the borders. Heck the Guard couldn't even get ammo to guard the airports after 9/11. They were walking around with M-16's and no ammo. LOL
16 posted on 07/08/2003 12:12:08 PM PDT by kellynla ("C" 1/5 1st Mar Div Viet Nam '69 & '70 Semper Fi)
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To: sfvgt
what a lousy choice........hire an illegal for low wage cash or hire a citizen and pay enough fees and taxes to make it impossible to make a profit

BINGO! Due to roofing Workers Comp costs no legitimate firm can compete if they hire citizens. The Workers Comp cost is cose to $90-$110 per $100 of salary. Add in the other payroll costs and there is no way...

17 posted on 07/08/2003 12:14:18 PM PDT by Drango (Just 5 a day will end pledge drives on FreeRepublic.)
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To: NormsRevenge
DAN STEIN is executive director of the Federation for American Immigration Reform - FAIR. He wrote this for the Mercury News.

I am utterly AMAZED the SJ Fishwrap News printed this, as there is no publication on the planet more mindlessly wedded to the dogma of 'diversity' & worse, open borders. Except maybe the LA Times & the WSJ.

18 posted on 07/08/2003 12:18:12 PM PDT by skeeter (Fac ut vivas)
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To: thoughtomator
Excuse me, but I thought diversity was good for us. That's what I was told. Could they have been wrong?
19 posted on 07/08/2003 12:32:18 PM PDT by henderson field
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To: kellynla
There are no figures on the degree to which immigration and resultant population growth have raised housing prices. X amount of land + Y x 2 number of people: marketing 101. Good for those selling. Very bad for those buying. Lowers the standard of living. Eats up environment, causes congestion, promotes crime. Any benefits? None.
20 posted on 07/08/2003 12:36:06 PM PDT by henderson field
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To: CatoRenasci
bump
21 posted on 07/08/2003 1:37:26 PM PDT by junta (Xenophobia a perfectly reasonable response to the feckless stupidity of globalism.)
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To: ImphClinton
I am so far to the right that I totally agree with you!
22 posted on 07/08/2003 1:53:00 PM PDT by GOP_1900AD (Un-PC even to "Conservatives!" - Right makes right)
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To: CatoRenasci
Imagine the knock on effect nationwide. When can we start?
23 posted on 07/08/2003 1:53:56 PM PDT by GOP_1900AD (Un-PC even to "Conservatives!" - Right makes right)
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To: sfvgt
The Left love to wallow in root causes (except they are never true root causes). I'll offer mine.... in addition to all the excessive Green Wacko, OSHA and diVERRRsity regs heaped onto businesses, I would argue that another dimension of Green Whackoism, which is artificial constraints of development and housing stock, underlie to huge costs of doing business here. Imagine how much less the pay scales (not to mention real estate costs) would be if we allowed the free market, perhaps controlled only be functional zoning and urban planning, to drive the real estate and property development markets? If houses did not cost $700,000 then everything else would also be far less expensive.
24 posted on 07/08/2003 1:58:03 PM PDT by GOP_1900AD (Un-PC even to "Conservatives!" - Right makes right)
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To: sfvgt
The Left love to wallow in root causes (except they are never true root causes). I'll offer mine.... in addition to all the excessive Green Wacko, OSHA and diVERRRsity regs heaped onto businesses, I would argue that another dimension of Green Whackoism, which is artificial constraints of development and housing stock, underlie to huge costs of doing business here. Imagine how much less the pay scales (not to mention real estate costs) would be if we allowed the free market, perhaps controlled only by functional zoning and urban planning, to drive the real estate and property development markets? If houses did not cost $700,000 then everything else would also be far less expensive.
25 posted on 07/08/2003 1:58:21 PM PDT by GOP_1900AD (Un-PC even to "Conservatives!" - Right makes right)
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To: NormsRevenge; hchutch; kellynla; henderson field; Ernest_at_the_Beach; ImphClinton
It's easy to demonize a group of people, but it's even harder to confront our own demons.

We have schools that don't teach, roads that are worse than those in a third-world country, and a welfare system that prepetuates an eternal underclass.

And yet we're not thinking about these problems; we're thinking about a bunch of people who we feel are overrunning our country like cockroaches.

Well, they may be. But if they are the punch in the nose that makes us get our own house in order, perhaps they are worth pulling along.

I have been doing a lot of travel lately. I just came back from Rio de Janerio, Brazil, and there was a lovely lady sitting in Coach with me, who works three jobs and was charming, intelligent and an asset to any country. There are plenty of people like her in the world. To me, it doesn't matter what country you came from; it matters who you are. There are plenty of scumbags in Mexico and Nicaruga; there are plenty of scumbags who are citizens of the USA, too.

We have to pay for the educations of ghetto blacks, and rural "white trash", and we do, because we think they may represent the future of this country. Well, so do many of the Mexicans and others who move here in search of something better.

The real shame is that we're letting them all down - legal or illegal - by providing bad educations, awful roads and substandard housing. My question is how we can consider this a challenge instead of an excuse, by making it a reason to make do with what we got, and work smarter instead of throwing money blindly at our problems.

Our system has responded horribly to the challenges that confront us, but that doesn't mean we should eliminate the challenges. It means we should realize the system is broke, and try to fix it, instead of using it as a way to scapegoat racial groups and turn them against each other.

In the end, we're all in this together - and we shouldn't forget it.

D
26 posted on 07/08/2003 2:28:43 PM PDT by daviddennis (Visit amazing.com for protest accounts, video & more!)
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To: CatoRenasci
Very well summarized! If you come back I'll write in your name for governor :-)
27 posted on 07/08/2003 2:38:12 PM PDT by Canticle_of_Deborah
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To: NormsRevenge
Most recently, Los Angeles County, which is experiencing a full-blown health care crisis, estimated that caring for uninsured illegal aliens now costs $350 million a year. The state health budget is projected to encounter $3 billion in unreimbursed health care costs for illegal immigrants over the next five years.

Send the bill to Vicente Fox.

28 posted on 07/08/2003 2:42:18 PM PDT by Canticle_of_Deborah
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To: daviddennis
The real shame is that we're letting them all down - legal or illegal - by providing bad educations, awful roads and substandard housing.


Your points are well made. Let's modify your statement above just a bit if that's OK.

The real shame is that our elected officials and bureaucracies nationwide are letting them and its legal citizenry down by providing bad educations, awful roads and substandard housing.

29 posted on 07/08/2003 2:52:28 PM PDT by NormsRevenge (IN ZOT WE TRUST!)
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To: daviddennis
The real shame is that we're letting them all down - legal or illegal...

You lost me here.

30 posted on 07/08/2003 2:54:48 PM PDT by skeeter (Fac ut vivas)
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To: NormsRevenge
My point is that both legal and illegal residents are poorly served by the existing system. I absolutely agree that it's the bureaucracies that sell us all down the river.

I think plenty of illegal residents are decent and hardworking people who would make great citizens eventually.

I just don't feel the hostility to them many others here do.

D
31 posted on 07/08/2003 3:40:08 PM PDT by daviddennis (Visit amazing.com for protest accounts, video & more!)
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To: daviddennis
David, it is not the responsibility of America to provide a job, education and medication for everyone who manages to enter this country. There are no guarantees for legal immigrants. I refuse to make those guarantees to illegal immigrants. My ancestors entered this country legally and I refuse to pay for others to live here illegally. Mexico should solve the problems of Mexicans. Your contention is that I should fed, cloth, educate and medicate everyone who breaks into my house. I don't think so...
32 posted on 07/08/2003 3:45:28 PM PDT by kellynla ("C" 1/5 1st Mar Div Viet Nam '69 & '70 Semper Fi)
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To: skeeter; NormsRevenge; hchutch
By letting our providers of horrible government services off the hook by saying "Oh, it's the illegals fault", we're excusing the fact that our services have been inexcusably bad for decades.

I think illegals are the scapegoat for problems, not the cause of them. And I think a lot of them are just trying to make a living in a very difficult global environment.

Illegals have no source of political power, and therefore no ability or responsibility to make our system work. We have that responsibility and that power. If we let our public institutions use illegals as an excuse to provide worse services for more money, then we're doing our own people a disservice.

D
33 posted on 07/08/2003 3:46:32 PM PDT by daviddennis (Visit amazing.com for protest accounts, video & more!)
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To: daviddennis
"illegal residents are poorly served by the existing system" The "system" is not designed to "serve" illegal immigrants. Again, if you are in America illegally the only "system" designed for you is deportation. Game, Set, Match!
34 posted on 07/08/2003 3:47:43 PM PDT by kellynla ("C" 1/5 1st Mar Div Viet Nam '69 & '70 Semper Fi)
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To: daviddennis
instead of using it as a way to scapegoat racial groups and turn them against each other.

Dave, you're just plain wrong on at least three levels.

First, illegal immigration is not a racial issue. Even if all the illegal immigrants were from Mexico it's still not a racial issue because Mexican's are racially classified as white Europeans (if you're from Rio Linda that means they're white). Even Mexico's native peoples are classified as caucasoid.

Second, the consequences of illegal immigration over the last 50 years in California is THE problem in today's budget crisis. These immigrants and their children consume almost 35% of California's budget today through public education, public health and the legal system. This 35% figure EXCLUDES the cost of public welfare.

Third, there is no system of government than can support itself if it relies on a shrinking population of educated, productive people working outside the public sector, to support a growing public sector and a growing nonproductive private sector. Illegal immigration, principally from Mexico, is increasing at a geometric rate. Birth rates among these immigrants remains high (almost twice the state average) while the balance of the population is reproducing at less than replacement rates. Simply put the onslaught of illegal aliens can't be absorbed by our system if we continue to provide to the them what is considered today the most basic of services, a free primary and secoundary education, free emergency medical services and ajudication/punishment for criminal behavior.

Nice try Dave but try again!

35 posted on 07/08/2003 4:22:38 PM PDT by Amerigomag
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To: Amerigomag
Good to see ya! You been recharging your batteries?
36 posted on 07/08/2003 5:05:05 PM PDT by NormsRevenge (IN ZOT WE TRUST! ........... http:www.DRAFTTOM.com)
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To: NormsRevenge
You been recharging your batteries?

No. My oldest bought a "fixer upper" in Morrow Bay and we've been "fixing it up" for the past 5 weeks.

When I was younger "fixer uppers" in Morrow Bay cost about $60K. Today they're close to a half millon near the beach. The saving grace to this insanity is that the cost of repairs/upgrade remains about the same in 1960 dollars.

Thanks for the note.

37 posted on 07/08/2003 5:24:39 PM PDT by Amerigomag
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To: CatoRenasci
The way things are apparently ...(in my out of state opinion;^)... going, the Guard may be needed to keep the taxpayers from leaving!
38 posted on 07/08/2003 5:39:05 PM PDT by 6ppc
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To: NormsRevenge
There is a reason that immigration law exists, and it is to balance this equation: immigration = rate of economic growth. When the law is not enforced the economy can not support the increase in population. Declining standard of living for the majority is the result. Spend O'crats and employers of illegals don't get it, or maybe they do.
39 posted on 07/08/2003 6:14:41 PM PDT by SSN558 (Be on the lookout for Black White-Supremacists)
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To: NormsRevenge
But, But, But! "Our Diversity Is Our Strength!"
40 posted on 07/08/2003 6:17:08 PM PDT by AEMILIUS PAULUS (Further, the statement assumed)
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To: Amerigomag; kellynla
Depends on who's doing the classification. The Welfare Mafia certainly seems to think of them as a distinct racial group.

I think you're making a similar error to what I see all the time on the left. You are adding up costs but not benefits. Surely my local auto repair shop benefits from having illegal labor, and I benefit when they fix my car cheaper than could otherwise be done.

What I am saying is that the pressures illegals put on the system are a golden opportunity to reduce its generosity and make it serve all people better. I don't think there's any question that our current educational system, our current street maintenance system, and most of the rest of what government does is horribly broken, and being sold to us at a premium price.

By using the overuse of services by illegals as justification, we can start trimming poorly run government services such as welfare and education, forcing them to spend within our means.

Is that not an objective which would be good for us?

D
41 posted on 07/08/2003 7:56:01 PM PDT by daviddennis (Visit amazing.com for protest accounts, video & more!)
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To: kellynla
Your contention is that I should fed, cloth, educate and medicate everyone who breaks into my house. I don't think so.

Well put.

42 posted on 07/08/2003 8:09:17 PM PDT by Nea Wood
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Comment #43 Removed by Moderator

To: NormsRevenge
I say we should just annex all of Mexico and abolish the entire Mexican government. The liberals want to ignore the fact there is a border there, so why dont we?
44 posted on 07/08/2003 8:23:18 PM PDT by SwankyC
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To: daviddennis
"Is that not an objective which would be good for us?" No!
The illegals that your buddy's auto repair is using are illegal and employing illegals is against the law. Now if you want to patronize a cheating illegal auto repair shop that is your business. Chances are if your buddy is using cheap labor, he is probably using cheap parts. And if you buy cheap you get cheap. And in the long run you will be paying more for cheap repair jobs. But for every illegal that is hired there is a legal resident out of a job. You are multiplying the problem. The reason illegals come to CA is because people like you patronize their employers and/or hire them. If I have to explain Econ 101 to you then I neither have the time nor the inclination. You want cheap labor move to Mexico and get your car fixed. Personally I want Americans working in America. I want Americans being paid a generous wage. A happy employee means good quality work. And I don't mind paying for quality work. You however are another breed who just wants cheap. Well cheap gets you cheap. And like the fella says you can pay me now or pay me later...And illegals cost me and all other tax paying citizens of this state B I L L I O N S so you can have a cheap auto repair. Your "argument" is inane and quite frankly boring. Have a good evening and please if you live in CA, move! We don't need any more people patronizing illegals and/or their illegal employers. It is just too expensive!
45 posted on 07/08/2003 8:25:49 PM PDT by kellynla ("C" 1/5 1st Mar Div Viet Nam '69 & '70 Semper Fi)
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To: NormsRevenge
The inescapable conclusion is that California is being bankrupted by cheap immigrant labor.

No. The inescapable conclusion is that illegal immigrants contribute to our current state of fiscal insolvency. They are not alone in the cumulative effect upon a budget that is beholden to many siginificant wastes of tax dollars.

Vote getting by the doling out of dollars to various interest groups has been the democrat's greatest weapon. Republicans can only hope to mimic this, in order to 'swing' votes their way (see the national stage).

The problem isn't in the way the two major parties react to the demands of voters, but rather, the voters themselves, who have become all too comfortable with an existence that, when compared to the rest of the world's lazy, sit-on-your-ass-I-ain't-lifting-a-finger types, is one of the 'rich and famous' indeed.

46 posted on 07/08/2003 8:34:52 PM PDT by budwiesest
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To: kellynla; Amerigomag; hchutch
For the sake of those who try to read and understand what you're writing, please break your responses into paragraphs. You can do that by simply typing in a blank line, like this:

You will find this is much easier to read than if you write your message in a single clump, as you did. It's nearly impossible to read your message as it stands.

That being said ...

Who is a better person:

(1) An American citizen, who has been subsisting on charity for his entire life. He's sitting on a street corner right now, begging for a buck or two to feed his Night Train habit;

(2) A illegal alien Mexican who works really hard washing people's cars, or fixing them, or emptying toilets, or whatever. Right now, he's emptying someone's office wastebasket. He's tired but satisfied that he's doing as good a job as he can.

To me, there's nothing inherently good or bad about being an American citizen or an illegal; what's important is what they accomplish. And my point to you is that illegals are not this abstract force that's draining our lives away; they are simply people who are trying to build a better life.

Economics 101 says that when you have more of a resource, prices go down. And when prices go down, more use can be made of the resource. So illegal aliens make the work of people less expensive, and they also make it possible to employ more people and therefore get more done. If you can hire two illegals instead of one citizen, you can get your jobs done faster.

Economics 101 says that when this happens, the overall pie gets bigger, because the work of more people is baking it. So it is not necessarily so that having illegal aliens around takes other's jobs. It's also possible that they free people from menial jobs and allow them to take more important responsibilities. The guy who was doing manual labor becomes supervisor of a bunch of illegals, for instance.

I think you make a lot of assumptions about illegals that are, simply, not true. Illegal aliens are not mindless pod-people. They can grow, just as we can. They can do a good job, just as we can. They are people, just like us. Can they do quality work fixing cars? Of course they can, if they're trained well enough.

If you could wave a wand and get rid of all the illegals, I think you'd find a much poorer economy and a lot of legal residents who'd be out of jobs.

D
47 posted on 07/08/2003 9:12:22 PM PDT by daviddennis (Visit amazing.com for protest accounts, video & more!)
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To: daviddennis
You are adding up costs but not benefits.

Thats already been done for us. The bottom line is illegal aliens cost each & every California household $1300 per year.

And thats one expensive tune up.

48 posted on 07/08/2003 9:17:10 PM PDT by skeeter (Fac ut vivas)
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To: skeeter
It would be, if I was convinced it was done honestly.

In fact, I strongly suspect it was done by people who had a vested interest in making the cost seem much higher than it actually is.

My position is that the current costs of government services are incredibly inflated and something should be done to get them down.

I would think that much is something we could all agree on.

Illegal aliens are not making our schools cost $7,500 per pupil and they are not making administratiors hire hopeless incompetents to do everything from teaching to property management. Illegal aliens have nothing to do with the stupid decision to build the new Belmont High School on a dangerous landfill, with cleanup costs in the tens of millions of dollars.

Of all the things we can reasonably complain about, I'd consider illegal aliens close to the bottom. You are all using them as scapegoats. I would bet you $100 that if you eliminated every illegal alien from this state tomorrow, all the problems you say are their fault would still be with us.

We have a huge budget deficit because Gray Davis couldn't say no to special interests who wanted their pay and budgets increased. That's not going to be affected in the slightest by illegals.

D
49 posted on 07/08/2003 9:48:05 PM PDT by daviddennis (Visit amazing.com for protest accounts, video & more!)
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To: daviddennis; NormsRevenge
Illegals are a big part of the issue. Employers will prefer them over legal residents no matter how cheap legals will work. How many illegals can go to a lawyer and sue their boss?

Illegals could be one way to eliminate unions, though. Has anyone seen a union carpenter, roofer,,,lately? When these illegals start doing the jobs of more and more union employees, then someone will pay attention. Unions = Democrats and most immigrants = Democrats.

Personally, I would rather pay more for services than add to the tax bills of every taxpayer including my children and their children.

50 posted on 07/08/2003 11:14:51 PM PDT by Susannah (Over 200 people murdered in L. A.County-first 5 mos. of 2003 & NONE were fighting Iraq!!)
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