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Biology textbook hearings prompt science disputes [Texas]
Knight Ridder Newspapers ^ | 08 July 2003 | MATT FRAZIER

Posted on 07/09/2003 12:08:32 PM PDT by PatrickHenry

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Dying thread P L A C E M A R K E R
4,351 posted on 07/19/2003 4:41:09 PM PDT by PatrickHenry (When rationality is outlawed, only outlaws will be rational.)
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To: AndrewC
"You are getting back some of what has been dished out by Darwininians DarWHINEians for well over a year."

Excellent TRUTH and well worth every whining teardrop filled tantrum from the still evolving crowd.

tick tock!

4,352 posted on 07/19/2003 5:03:00 PM PDT by ALS (http://designeduniverse.com Featuring original works by FR's finest . contact me to add yours!)
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To: All
where's the evo-proof placemarker...


4,353 posted on 07/19/2003 5:05:04 PM PDT by NewLand
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To: NewLand
dog ate it
no wait..
elephant stepped on it
no wait...
Venusian voles hyper-evoluted it into makeshift dilithium crystals while digging a wormhole to Uranus in darwood's backyard.
yeah, that's the ticket
4,354 posted on 07/19/2003 5:10:25 PM PDT by ALS (http://designeduniverse.com Featuring original works by FR's finest . contact me to add yours!)
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To: ALS; Stultis
Good evening, ALS. I'd still appreciate an answer to my question posed in 4296, explained further in 4299, and also asked of you by Stultis in 4306.

Here's how I phrased it in 4299:

Now, I'm wondering if you believe that bacterial diseases such as diarrhea came about as part of The Fall? As I understand it, in The Fall God removed His protection against the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics, thereby allowing death & deterioration & destruction to occur. IOW, The Fall did not consist of God making positive acts of design to create the world's deadly & destructive things; they came about as the natural consequence of the material world.

So if the deadly flagella came about as part of The Fall, then it was part of corrupt nature taking its course, and not because of any affirmative, positive step that God made. But of course that means that it must have evolved and was not designed.

But you say that the flagella, which is the very instrument of death for H. pylori, E. coli, & others, was created by a positive, affirmative act of creation by God.

So help me out, ALS. Help me understand how you resolve this contradiction in your belief system? And if there is no contradiction, then please tell me precisely where my description of your beliefs re: the flagella is incorrect?


4,355 posted on 07/19/2003 6:40:50 PM PDT by jennyp (http://crevo.bestmessageboard.com)
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To: jennyp
We'd all like something and I'd like an admission of the obvious, that the below is an insult, and was intended as an insult, and an apology by all evos complicit in the joys of the insult. The context of which received validation by pattycakes, here:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-backroom/943130/posts?page=4201#4201


God of dysentery?

3,890 posted on 07/17/2003 2:16 PM CDT by js1138


facts are not your friend
4,356 posted on 07/19/2003 6:54:26 PM PDT by ALS (http://designeduniverse.com Featuring original works by FR's finest . contact me to add yours!)
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To: ALS
Brave, brave Sir Robin placemarker
4,357 posted on 07/19/2003 8:14:45 PM PDT by jennyp (http://crevo.bestmessageboard.com)
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To: AndrewC
>>Do we accept it and say s**t happens?<<

When discussing dysentery, let's don't even go there.
4,358 posted on 07/19/2003 8:19:44 PM PDT by CobaltBlue (Never voted for a Democrat in my life.)
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To: jennyp
enough of the swooning already.

you'll upset the chihuahuas
4,359 posted on 07/19/2003 8:29:05 PM PDT by ALS (http://designeduniverse.com Featuring original works by FR's finest . contact me to add yours!)
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To: general_re
With respect to Y. pestis - calling the handiwork of the Designer an "error" and attempting to "correct" Him seems awfully...presumptuous ;)

You're in Paris, we are in Rome. The "error" was Adam's sin. ;^)

4,360 posted on 07/19/2003 8:44:36 PM PDT by AndrewC
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To: jennyp; ALS
But of course that means that it must have evolved and was not designed.

Repeating "it" will not correct the logical error of non sequitur (but may upset the Knights who say Ni). Yersenia Pestis has flagellar genes. It does not have a flagella.

4,361 posted on 07/19/2003 9:42:24 PM PDT by AndrewC
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To: AndrewC; jennyp
Speaking of logical errors, what do you think of this doozy?

"I've long though[t] any theism is just an elaborate exercise in reification or anthropomorphization - hence my atheism."

4,362 posted on 07/19/2003 10:01:25 PM PDT by ALS (http://designeduniverse.com Featuring original works by FR's finest . contact me to add yours!)
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To: AndrewC
Repeating "it" will not correct the logical error of non sequitur (but may upset the Knights who say Ni). Yersenia Pestis has flagellar genes. It does not have a flagella.

Who said anything about Yersinia pestis? I was thinking of E. coli & H. pylori, as mentioned here.

4,363 posted on 07/19/2003 10:36:02 PM PDT by jennyp (http://crevo.bestmessageboard.com)
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To: jennyp; ALS
Who said anything about Yersinia pestis?

You missed my point. YP has a designed(you disagree)item which it does not use. Did the E.coli always have that item which it does now use?

4,364 posted on 07/19/2003 10:56:16 PM PDT by AndrewC
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To: ALS
Speaking of logical errors, what do you think of this doozy?

"I'm deeply troubled."

4,365 posted on 07/19/2003 11:00:20 PM PDT by jennyp (http://crevo.bestmessageboard.com)
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To: AndrewC
Sorry, still not following you.
4,366 posted on 07/19/2003 11:00:44 PM PDT by jennyp (http://crevo.bestmessageboard.com)
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To: jennyp
so was darwood
4,367 posted on 07/19/2003 11:09:57 PM PDT by ALS (http://designeduniverse.com Featuring original works by FR's finest . contact me to add yours!)
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To: jennyp
The argument can be made that an innocuous or unused designed item could develop into a hurtful item if the circumstances warranted that action. IOW "So if the deadly flagella came about as part of The Fall, then it was part of corrupt nature taking its course, and not because of any affirmative, positive step that God made. But of course that means that it must have evolved and was not designed." is flawed.
4,368 posted on 07/19/2003 11:42:22 PM PDT by AndrewC
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To: AndrewC
aHA, there's your "out"!
4,369 posted on 07/20/2003 1:14:25 AM PDT by jennyp (http://crevo.bestmessageboard.com)
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To: balrog666
ken norton chuck norris evander holyfield george foreman grill placemaker !
4,370 posted on 07/20/2003 6:50:02 AM PDT by f.Christian (evolution vs intelligent design ... science3000 ... designeduniverse.com --- * architecture * !)
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To: jennyp; ALS
aHA, there's your "out"!

FlAWed .logic used against sOMEone, HAs always been tHAt someone's "out".

4,371 posted on 07/20/2003 7:07:57 AM PDT by AndrewC
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To: AndrewC
And the really nutty thing about atheism is that it must study and immerse itself into the very thing it claims doesn't exist, in order to find its logic, which is, of course, illogical.

Atheism is just another escape mechanism like drugs, booze, self-flagellating homosexuality, and the like. Only, if it ever actually allowed anyone to escape their latent tendencies they wouldn't remain to be so obsessed with something they don't even believe exists.
4,372 posted on 07/20/2003 7:24:32 AM PDT by ALS (http://designeduniverse.com Featuring original works by FR's finest . contact me to add yours!)
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To: jennyp
Dead thread placemarker.
4,373 posted on 07/20/2003 7:46:21 AM PDT by Junior (Killed a six pack ... just to watch it die.)
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To: Junior
post #202 lives
4,374 posted on 07/20/2003 7:54:12 AM PDT by ALS (http://designeduniverse.com Featuring original works by FR's finest . contact me to add yours!)
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To: AndrewC
The "error" was Adam's sin.

Ah, yes - the old "look what you made Me do to you" defense, beloved of wife-beaters everywhere ;)

More seriously, I am reminded of a thread not too long ago where the discussion turned to whether a being who created evil could be fairly described as "perfectly good". John Stuart Mill found it impossible to reconcile those two beliefs, and so he proposed that God was, in fact, perfectly good, but less than omnipotent, and so did not create evil, but was equally unable to prevent it from arising.

4,375 posted on 07/20/2003 11:04:22 AM PDT by general_re (ERROR IN REALITY.SYS REBOOT UNIVERSE? Y/N)
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To: general_re
John Stuart Mill found it impossible to reconcile those two beliefs, and so he proposed that God was, in fact, perfectly good, but less than omnipotent, and so did not create evil, but was equally unable to prevent it from arising.

Well, Mr. Mill was using something other than the Bible for his source since Isaiah makes it clear that God did create evil. And, a strange thing about evil is that it is like sewage. (paraphrasing what I have heard)Add a drop of sewage into a glass of water and the water becomes sewage. Add a drop of water into a glass of sewage and it is still sewage. Likewise, let a good man do an evil act and he becomes evil. Let an evil man do a just act and he remains evil.

4,376 posted on 07/20/2003 1:07:23 PM PDT by AndrewC
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To: Doctor Stochastic
Chomsky makes that argument but not everyone accepts it.

Chomsky? *immediately reconsiders position*

What knowledge do you claim that people are created with? You must have some idea just to make the claim. (Note that reflexes do not count.) How many cells does an embryo need to actually have such knowledge?

I assume that we have some sort of moral instinct already imprinted in our being; it has more to do with the soul than the number of brain cells.

4,377 posted on 07/20/2003 5:16:13 PM PDT by MitchellC
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To: AndrewC
The verse from Isaiah about God creating evil, IIRC, is talking about 'evil' in the sense of 'physical disaster' - not in the sense that God somehow contradicted his own nature to create the opposite.
4,378 posted on 07/20/2003 5:27:41 PM PDT by MitchellC
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To: MitchellC
The verse from Isaiah about God creating evil, IIRC, is talking about 'evil' in the sense of 'physical disaster' - not in the sense that God somehow contradicted his own nature to create the opposite.

The words used in the verse in Isaiah for create and evil, are the same words used in Genesis for the Creation and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

bara' -- create

ra` -- evil

(the transliterations are from the Blueletterbible)

4,379 posted on 07/20/2003 6:01:07 PM PDT by AndrewC
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To: AndrewC
Here's an article discussing this verse, and why 'evil' should be taken to mean 'disaster' and not 'immorality.'
4,380 posted on 07/20/2003 6:19:39 PM PDT by MitchellC
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To: MitchellC
Yes, and notice that for some reason he does not give the full verse. The part containing the light and darkness parts. It is important to the understanding of that verse. God states that by forming the light he created darkness. Parallel would be the making of peace created evil. This is due to the necessity of choice. He did not do evil, he created evil in the process of making peace. That whole segment was with one purpose in mind --->Isa 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that [there is] none beside me. I [am] the LORD, and [there is] none else.

(So that those from the East to the West know that I the LORD did it all)

4,381 posted on 07/20/2003 6:32:18 PM PDT by AndrewC
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To: Junior
How's Caesar doing?

Wasn't that one Calpurnia?

4,382 posted on 07/20/2003 7:15:30 PM PDT by edsheppa
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To: edsheppa
Probably. The word and its context are stuck in my brain. The spelling ain't. So much for that classic education, huh? ;^)>
4,383 posted on 07/21/2003 3:51:00 AM PDT by Junior (Killed a six pack ... just to watch it die.)
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To: Virginia-American
Was Luther's interpretation of Scripture incorrect? IF so, where else did he go wrong? Was Copernicus' theory wrong?

If those are Luther's words, then yes, it appears he was because scripture does not teach geocentrism. By the way, the so-called scientists of the day were also geocentrists.

4,384 posted on 07/21/2003 8:26:05 AM PDT by exmarine
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To: general_re
The "error" was Adam's sin.

Ah, yes - the old "look what you made Me do to you" defense, beloved of wife-beaters everywhere ;)

Doesn't anyone find it just a bit strange that perfect creations (Lucifer, Garden of Eden) go bad, just like Yugos? I mean, what's the point of being omniscient and omnipotent if your stuff fizzles on the launch pad or wears out, just like the stuff made by lesser gods?

4,385 posted on 07/21/2003 8:32:27 AM PDT by js1138
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To: AndrewC
Isaiah 45:6 placemarker.
4,386 posted on 07/21/2003 9:49:02 AM PDT by Lurking Libertarian (Non sub homine, sed sub Deo et lege)
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To: js1138
Doesn't anyone find it just a bit strange that perfect creations (Lucifer, Garden of Eden) go bad, just like Yugos? I mean, what's the point of being omniscient and omnipotent if your stuff fizzles on the launch pad or wears out, just like the stuff made by lesser gods?

BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHA!

4,387 posted on 07/21/2003 5:29:33 PM PDT by balrog666 (I'm not wearing any pants! Film at 11.)
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