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Martin Luther special on PBS
Public Broadcasting System (PBS) ^ | July 9, 2003 | PBS

Posted on 07/09/2003 9:05:32 PM PDT by AnalogReigns

Documentary was shown on various PBS stations this week... (you know PBS--will be on again, surely--got to get something out of those tax dollars spent). It's worth taping...

Very good portrayal in my opinion...but downplayed his theology, mainly highlighting the social consequences of what Luther discovered in the Bible. Understandable when telling about such an important historic figure in just 2 hours.

Personally, I think, but for Luther's courage, there would have been no eventual United States of America...and we'd live in a very different world...

Here's the speil from PBS's site:

Martin Luther (#101)
"Driven to Defiance/The Reluctant Revolutionary"

Driven to Defiance - Martin Luther is born into a world dominated by the Catholic Church. For the keenly spiritual Luther, the Church's promise of salvation is irresistible. Caught in a thunderstorm and terrified by the possibility of imminent death, he vows to become a monk. But after entering the monastery, Luther becomes increasingly doubtful that the Church can actually offer him salvation. His views crystallize further when he travels to Rome and finds the capital of Catholicism swamped in corruption. Wracked by despair, Luther finds release in the pages of the Bible, discovering that it is not the Church, but his own individual faith that will guarantee his salvation. With this revelation he turns on the Church. In his famous 95 Theses he attacks its practice of selling Indulgences, putting himself on an irreversible path to conflict with the most powerful institution of the day. The Reluctant Revolutionary - The Catholic Church uses all of its might to try and silence Luther, including accusations of heresy and excommunication. Protected by his local ruler, Frederick the Wise, Luther continues to write radical critiques of the Church. In the process, he develops a new system of faith that places the freedom of the individual believer above the rituals of the Church. Aided by the newly invented printing press, his ideas spread rapidly. He is called before the German Imperial Parliament in the city of Worms and told he must recant. Risking torture and execution, Luther refuses, proclaiming his inalienable right to believe what he wishes. His stand becomes a legend that inspires revolution across Europe, overturning the thousand-year-old hegemony of the Church. But as the reformation expands into a movement for social freedom, Luther finds himself overwhelmed by the pace of change and is left vainly protesting that his followers should be concerning themselves with God.


TOPICS: Announcements; Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; Germany; Miscellaneous; Philosophy; Unclassified
KEYWORDS: christianity; conscience; courage; democracy; evangelicalism; faith; freedom; luther; martinluther; pbs; protestantism; romancatholicism; westerncivilization
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Was a terrific documentary, especially for PBS...apparently originally made for the BBC. Well worth taping for show to students of all ages. Sorry I didn't post this a couple days ago to give folks notice--however, PBS will no doubt be playing this several times in the next week or so, just check your local schedule (example, its playing on WETA in the Washington DC area tonight on July 10 at 4 AM.... another reason why not to let the VCR just blink 12:00 all the time).

"I cannot and will not recant anything, for to go against conscience is neither right nor safe. Here I stand, I can do no other, so help me God. Amen."--Martin Luther at the Diet of Worms, while under direct threat of being burned alive.

1 posted on 07/09/2003 9:05:33 PM PDT by AnalogReigns
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To: All
Lighten Up, Francis!
Fundraising posts only happen quarterly, and are gone as soon as we meet the goal. Help make it happen.

2 posted on 07/09/2003 9:07:38 PM PDT by Support Free Republic (Your support keeps Free Republic going strong!)
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To: AnalogReigns
It was not too bad, but it missed Luther's main points which were not about conscience nor liberty of individual conscience (I think some of the pompous talking heads in this show would cast Luther as a homosexual rights supporter) but about the authority and veracity of the Scriptures and the sufficiency of faith in Christ alone for salvation. I did not see any conservative / confessional Lutheran scholars interviewed. A shame. Luther was about discovering and espousing correct theology and really meaning it (enough to die for it).
3 posted on 07/09/2003 9:14:45 PM PDT by old-ager
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To: AnalogReigns
If I can point out the following plegde amounts for public broadcasting. It's pledge time at FreeRepublic (hint, hint) Please do what you can...

Average per-person contribution in current dollars 1980 1999
Public radio $24.84 $73.22
Public television $30.12 $77.05
Source: Corporation for Public Broadcasting
4 posted on 07/09/2003 9:15:52 PM PDT by Drango (Just 5 a day will end pledge drives on FreeRepublic.)
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To: AnalogReigns
Some other quotes by Martin Luther, mostly from "Luther's Table Talk":

"God does not work salvation for fictitious sinners. Be a sinner and sin vigorously.... Do not for a moment imagine that this life is the abiding place of justice; sin must be committed."

"As for the demented, I hold it certain that all beings deprived of reason are thus afflicted only by the Devil."

"I feel much freer now that I am certain the pope is the Antichrist."

"Idiots, the lame, the blind, the dumb, are men in whom the devils have established themselves: and all the physicians who heal these infirmities, as though they proceeded from natural causes, are ignorant blockheads...."

"Snakes and monkeys are subjected to the demon more than other animals. Satan lives in them and possesses them. He uses them to deceive men and to injure them."

"The Devil, too, sometimes steals human children; it is not infrequent for him to carry away infants within the first six weeks after birth, and to substitute in their place imps...."

"We are at fault for not slaying them [the Jews]."

"Listen, Jew, are you aware that Jerusalem and your sovereignty, together with your temple and priesthood, have been destroyed for over 1,460 years? ... Let the Jews bite on this nut and dispute this question as long as they wish ... I am not a Jew, but I really do not like to contemplate God's awful wrath toward this people. It sends a shudder of fear through body and soul, for I ask, What will the eternal wrath of God in hell be like ..." (from "on the Jews and their lies").

"be on your guard against the Jews, knowing that wherever they have their synagogues, nothing is found but a den of devils" (from: "on the Jews and their lies").

"We may well lie with what seems to be a woman of flesh and blood, and yet all the time it is only a devil in the shape of a woman."

"What shall we do with...the Jews?...I advise that safe-conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews."

"Women...have but small and narrow chests, and broad hips, to the end that they should remain at home, sit still, keep house, and bear and bring up children."

5 posted on 07/09/2003 9:25:42 PM PDT by TheCrusader
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To: TheCrusader
Now we would not want to change the subject and bring up some tasty quotes from the popes. I had to chuckle, as I watched the PBS Luther show tonight, at the painting of the pope and his "nephews."
6 posted on 07/09/2003 9:32:19 PM PDT by reflecting
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To: TheCrusader
I don't really know your point, except to discredit a man for holding common attitudes to those of medieval central Europeans of nearly 500 years ago.

Luther has no peer in bringing wonderful change to the Western world, including seeding concepts of democracy which first sprouted and bloomed in America.

Bringing up silly remarks say about women, or demonology (from a time when the most educated people thought in ways about heath laughable today)by Luther is as unhelpful as say bringing up racist remarks by Jefferson or Lincoln--which they had quite a few. Such anachronistic attitudes don't tarnish the greatness of their other way more substantial contributions.
7 posted on 07/09/2003 9:48:01 PM PDT by AnalogReigns
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To: AnalogReigns
Yes, let's not let the truth about Luther get in the way of a good story.
8 posted on 07/09/2003 10:08:44 PM PDT by SMEDLEYBUTLER
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To: SMEDLEYBUTLER
Luther, one of the aritechs of liberalsm(Not the modern day leftist form).
9 posted on 07/09/2003 11:11:52 PM PDT by John Will
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To: AnalogReigns
"I don't really know your point, except to discredit a man for holding common attitudes to those of medieval central Europeans of nearly 500 years ago."

I'm sorry to hear you believe that rubbish about Luther being responsible for democracy, and the founding of America. Martin Luther was a horribly abused child, beaten bloody by both of his parents. He grew up angry, confused, and so utterly afraid of Hell that he invented his own doctrine on salvation, ('sola scriptura' and 'sola fide'), that morphed into the heretical "eternal security", a horrendous proposition that is foreign to Scripture, the writings of the early Church Fathers, and the more than 1,500 years of Christian doctrine that predated Luther's heresies. This madman has led the greatest division in Christianity ever, and his heresies have developed into more than 25,000 different Protestant denominations, each teaching a different doctrine, and each claiming they alone hold the truth.

Luther arrogantly addmitted that he added words to the Bible, an egregious sin in itself. His doctrine of "faith alone" cannot be found in Scripture, and is demolished by the words "NOT by faith alone" in James 2:20. It is no coincidence that Luther attempted to strike the Book of James from the canon of the New Testament, (at least he failed in that heresy). However, Luther only resentfully accepted James as Scripture, and he labeled James (in his 1522 German translation of the New Testament) as the "Epistle of Straw".

Sadly, Luther did manage to strike seven books from the canon of the Old Testament, a codification of Scriptural books that was listed in 393 A.D. at the Council of Hippo, and again in 397 A.D. at the Council of Carthage. This early codification of Scripture, though not yet officially "canonized" at the time, had been used and read in the Christian Church since the 1st Century A.D. The Council of Laodicea in 363 A.D. listed the Old Testament books exactly as the Catholic Church codifies them today.

A little history on the Old Testament: ~ Greek was the language of the day during the time of Christ. The Hebrew language was on its way out, and there was a critical need for a translation of the Hebrew Old Testament for dispersed Greek speaking Jews. This translation, called the "Septuagint", was completed by Jewish scholars in about 148 B.C. and it had all of the books still used by the Catholic Church during Luther's life, and today. But Luther, 1650 years later, decided he had the authority to remove seven of these books. The oldest Christian churches, (Greek, Syrian, etc), used this 148 B.C. Old Testament canon from the beginning of Christianity, and still use it today. The New Testament has about 350 references to Old Testament verses. By careful examination, scholars have determined that 300 of these are from the Septuagint. They have shown that Jesus Christ Himself, quoted from the Septuagint. Early Christians used the Septuagint to support Christian teachings. The Jews were upset that these new Christians were using their translation for Christian advantage.

About 90-95 A.D., the Jews, (Pharisees), called a council to deal with the matter. In this council, called the "Council of Jamnia", Jewish Pharisees, who survived the destruction of Jerusalem and of their temple in 70 A.D., decided to remove books that were helpful to Christians. But the Christians kept them faithfully, until 1650 years later when Martin Luther, fulfilling the Pharisaic desires, decided to remove them from Protestant Scripture.

While Martin Luther condemned the Papacy as non-scriptural, he was a pope unto himself as he arrogantly granted himself the power to add words and strip away seven books from Christian Scripture. He even determined that some of the seven Sacraments were authentic, and others were not. Talk about the abuse of power, where did he get such authority from? Founding his own church, (a church that even calls itself by his name, "Lutheran"), this man was nothing but a great divider.

Luther was unquestionably a madman, as he clearly displayed in his instigation of the "Peasant Uprising". In his first writings, where he called the princes "the greatest fools on earth and the most heinous scoundrels," and in his first appeals relative to the Peasant War, Luther defended the insurgents. He wrote, for instance, "It is not the peasants who arose against you masters, but God himself, who wishes to punish you for your evil doings." Luther hoped to find in the peasant movement a support for his struggle against Rome. But when, in April and May, the peasantry revolted all over the country, burning and destroying castles, Luther switched sides and defended the princes against the peasants. He attributed the movement to the peasants' "easy life". He urged the princes to "strangle them as you would mad dogs." When the insurrection was quelled, he bragged that he "had killed the peasants because he had given the orders to kill." "All their blood is upon me," he said.

Luther also tore the Church asunder at a time when the Mohammedans were threatening to attack and destroy Western Christianity. And this guy is your hero?

10 posted on 07/10/2003 8:04:36 AM PDT by TheCrusader
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To: TheCrusader
"We may well lie with what seems to be a woman of flesh and blood, and yet all the time it is only a devil in the shape of a woman."

Now hold on. He may have something with this one.

11 posted on 07/10/2003 8:26:05 AM PDT by tnlibertarian
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To: reflecting
"Now we would not want to change the subject and bring up some tasty quotes from the popes."

The "Prince of the Apostles" and first Pope, Saint Peter, was a sinner. He denied Christ three times. Other Popes were known to sin too. Some usurpers even had to be deemed "anti Popes". There are no Christians who didn't sin, for that matter. But what does this prove? The argument is not whether individual Popes were sinners, (for they all were), it's whether or not they taught heresy regarding Christian doctrine and lead souls astray. While some Popes absolutely fell prey to sin, they were always protected by the Holy Spirit from teaching doctrinal error that would led a soul the hell. Jesus Christ Himself prayed that Peter's faith would never fail, and commissioned Peter to "strengthen his brethren". "but I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren." (Luke 22: 32-33). Three times Jesus commissioned Peter to teach and strenghten Christians in their faith: "feed my sheep - feed my sheep - feed my lambs" (John 21: 15). And Jesus gave Peter the Keys to the Kingdom and granted him the power to "bind and loose". "19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.". (Mathew 16:19).

There are a lot of fallicies out there regarding the office of the Pope, the greatest being that Catholics think the Popes cannot sin or ever be wrong. They can sin, and they can be wrong in just about every area of life - all but the essential doctrines of Jesus Christ, those things which Christians must believe in order to have salvation. In other words, those essential things revealed in Scripture and oral Tradition that Christians have believed from the beginning, "So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by epistle. (2 Thess. 2:15).

So the message is quite simple, while both the Popes and Martin Luther were sinners, Martin Luther broke from Christian traditions and from Christian Scripture and taught new doctrines, (heresy). Had Luther, the very founder of Protestantism and of whom his church is named after, the Lutheran Church, had successors I would have focused only on his heretical quotes and not also on his mad rantings and ravings and hatreds. But since he is the father of Protestantism, and since he establshed his own paralell Christian Church minus some original doctrines and sacraments, and since he is not seen in Scripture speaking with Jesus, and since he is not mentioned in Scripture prophesy as some future rescuer of Christianity gone astray, I decided to focus on both his doctrinal errors and his cruelty and insanity.

12 posted on 07/10/2003 8:45:53 AM PDT by TheCrusader
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To: AnalogReigns
It was very well done, even if very much a product of these times (emphasis on individualism, technological change and corporate analogies (Tetzel as "ad man", Rome as "corporate headquarters").

I didn't expect in depth treatment of his theology because, well, one has to be a theist to begin with before the finer points of Christian doctrine can be understood and examined. Still, nice to see a conservative, evangelical Anglican like Alistair McGrath given a prominent role in the commentary.

13 posted on 07/10/2003 8:55:57 AM PDT by ameribbean expat
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To: old-ager; MudPuppy
but about the authority and veracity of the Scriptures and the sufficiency of faith in Christ alone for salvation

Oh yeah, those Scriptures...where did he get those again? Oh! Now I know. The One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. Doh!

14 posted on 07/10/2003 9:48:54 AM PDT by Truelove (Armed, Intelligent and Catholic. Your worst nightmare.)
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To: TheCrusader
that morphed into the heretical "eternal security", a horrendous proposition that is foreign to Scripture

Okay. This shows you don't know what you're talking about. Lutherans don't believe in "eternal security"--they believe you can commit spiritual suicide and lose your salvation (see Hebrews 6:1-4). How can something Luther-- and Lutherans to this day--deny ("once saved, always saved") be the groundwork for "morphing?"

It can't. You're wrong. 'Fess up.

15 posted on 07/10/2003 9:55:41 AM PDT by Colofornian
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To: TheCrusader
I'm a Lutheran myself and have on occasion come dangerously close to espousing catholic tradition. Thankfully there are always good folks as yourself to put things back into perspective for me.
16 posted on 07/10/2003 9:56:42 AM PDT by homeschool_dad
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To: TheCrusader
Here's my choice: follow Christ to heaven or the pope to hell. Ummmmmm...... any guess which one I'll be choosing?
17 posted on 07/10/2003 9:59:12 AM PDT by homeschool_dad
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To: Truelove
Did the church invent Jesus, too?

Dan
18 posted on 07/10/2003 10:02:47 AM PDT by BibChr ("...behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD, so what wisdom is in them?" [Jer. 8:9])
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To: homeschool_dad

The beauty of Luther is his writing. If you can find collections of his daily devotions, they are worth the effort. Amazon has several offerings, but you usually have to wait for them as they are in great demand. My favorite is Steadfast in the Word, but they are all clear and personal expositions of the faith.
19 posted on 07/10/2003 10:08:20 AM PDT by kittymyrib
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To: TheCrusader
Luther was unquestionably a madman

Luther was unquestionably a spiritual man.

"The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgments." (1 Cor. 2:15).

"...why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat." (Romans 14:10)

"It is the Lord who judges me. Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time..." (1 Cor. 4:4)

As for faith alone vs. faith & works, works are the outcroppings of having been planted in the fertile soil of faith. You can fault Luther for having swung the pendulum too far as being overreactionary to the (then) Catholic teaching of salvation by works (indulgences).

But the equation is not simply faith + works = salvation, either. James just says they're integral. They go together. Works are evidential of faith; but works apart from faith--as the Catholic church was infamous for in Luther's day--is indeed straw to be burnt up at the last day.

20 posted on 07/10/2003 10:13:16 AM PDT by Colofornian
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To: kittymyrib
His hymns kick some serious butt, too.
21 posted on 07/10/2003 10:14:52 AM PDT by homeschool_dad
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To: TheCrusader
I am certain the pope is the Antichrist."

OK, OK, Luther was wrong. The pope wasn't the antichrist. The papacy was.

Well, the papacy wasn't the Antichrist...but 1 John talks about antichrists plural.

22 posted on 07/10/2003 10:16:18 AM PDT by Colofornian
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To: TheCrusader
you said: "His doctrine of "faith alone" cannot be found in Scripture,..."

Ephesians 2 says:

"8": For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

"9": Not of works, lest any man should boast.

23 posted on 07/10/2003 10:20:41 AM PDT by homeschool_dad
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To: BibChr
Did the church invent Jesus, too?

Heh, heh.... Zing!

24 posted on 07/10/2003 10:20:51 AM PDT by Pahuanui (when A Foolish Man Hears The tao, He Laughs Out Loud.)
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To: Truelove
Yes there was a time when the church was "one holy catholic and apostolic". But the canon of Holy Scripture was set by council, a method of dispute resolution which seemed to work quite well until the filioque controversy-- and then who blew the bridge in 1054?

So far all I see is "armed" and "Catholic", and yes, that was many a European Protestant's nightmare for a couple of centuries. But please do thank the Pope for kicking my ancestors asses, because the ones who survived came to New Amsterdam. Nice to see so many of Catholics acknowledge the superiority of Protestant social order by voting with your feet and immigrating here even though it must grieve you terribly to have to live amongst heretics.
25 posted on 07/10/2003 10:22:02 AM PDT by ameribbean expat
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To: BibChr
Did the church invent Jesus, too?

No Dan, Jesus invented The Church, and he only started one. Please refer to Matt 16:18 in your Scriptures. BTW: You didn't respond to the issue. Scriptures and where they came from.

26 posted on 07/10/2003 10:24:03 AM PDT by Truelove (Armed, Intelligent and Catholic. Your worst nightmare.)
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To: TheCrusader
broad hips, to the end that they should remain at home, sit still, keep house, and bear and bring up children."

OK, from a design perspective, yes, "broad hips" does indeed correlate with bearing and bringing up children. Or do you think this is better suited for the test tube and daycare industries?

Boy, that nasty Luther. The nerve of him to label woman as a housekeeper. Why we know nobody's done that in American culture throughout the 20th century...

Oh, I know, I know. It was the "sitting still" phrasing that upset you and sent you on a crusading tirade...the same kind of tirade that you rake the apostle Paul over the coals for saying "A woman should learn in quietness and full submission {a type of "sitting still," doncha think?}." (1 Tim. 2:11).

And, of course, The Crusader believes that not just Luther screwed up by pointing to women's childbearing role, but Paul did as well: "But women will be saved through childbearing--if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propiety." (1 Tim. 2:15)

Well, at least that verse proves The Crusader's point about faith + works...can't get any more laborious than bearing kids.

27 posted on 07/10/2003 10:26:37 AM PDT by Colofornian
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To: TheCrusader
Late in life, Luther apologized for his anti-Semitic remarks. Convenient for you to leave that out...

Kind of like pointing out that the Amazing Grace author (Newton) was a slave trader...while failing to mention that he was a repenting ex- slave trader.

28 posted on 07/10/2003 10:28:23 AM PDT by Colofornian
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To: TheCrusader
I sense so much hatred when I read your post and I don't know why.
29 posted on 07/10/2003 10:29:09 AM PDT by ACAC
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To: SMEDLEYBUTLER
Oh dear ... a Catholic has appeared. We know how Catholics hate Luther. It's hard to find someone who doesn't know why you guys hate him. For others he brought about Biblical theoology, cast shame on indulgences and other money making rackets within the Catholic church and most importantly pushed for the Bible to be available for all to read as it was intended. Thank God for Luther!
30 posted on 07/10/2003 10:30:51 AM PDT by nmh
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To: ameribbean expat
Yes, indeed it does grieve me terribly to live amongst heretics, but since I was born here and even born heretical, it was beyond my control. However, "Why seek ye rest when ye were born to labor".

Heretics are everywhere, keeps life interesting. The filioque dispute was only one of many speed bumps in the life of a 2,000 year old organization. The Lord only promised that the gates of hell would not prevail, and they have not. He didn't promise a rose garden, that's the Methodists. ;-)

31 posted on 07/10/2003 10:33:12 AM PDT by Truelove (qui tacet consentit)
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To: TheCrusader
"Snakes and monkeys are subjected to the demon more than other animals. Satan lives in them and possesses them. He uses them to deceive men and to injure them."

You idiot Luther! Scripturally, we all know demonic forces only inhabit pigs and it could ne'er happen to monkeys! Geez!

And snakes? Luther, don't take Genesis too seriously. Relax. Sober up.

"Idiots, the lame, the blind, the dumb, are men in whom the devils have established themselves: and all the physicians who heal these infirmities, as though they proceeded from natural causes, are ignorant blockheads...."

Yup. We know this never happens! "Teacher, I brought you my son, who is possessed by a spirit that has robbed him of speech. Whenever it seizes him, it throws him to the ground." (Mark 9:17-18)..."...and a woman was there who had been crippled by a spirit for eighteen years." (Luke 13:11)

The nerve of Luther to paraphrase Scripture in such a raw manner!

"The Devil, too, sometimes steals human children; it is not infrequent for him to carry away infants within the first six weeks after birth, and to substitute in their place imps...."

Hey, I'm a parent of four teens and one pre-teen. What, I'd swear those cute and cuddly babes I held have morphed into teen-age imps at times.

32 posted on 07/10/2003 10:39:17 AM PDT by Colofornian
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To: TheCrusader
God does not work salvation for fictitious sinners. Be a sinner and sin vigorously

What's wrong w/this? If you are going to sin in front of an omnipresent and omniscient God, then you better have some boldness to back it up.

I recall one school test that I didn't have a clue about re: answers. I was so desperate to at least get one answer right that when I went to turn in the test, I looked at one answer at the top of the pile, feigned that I had an "Oh, yeah" moment, and wrote in the answer--all in the immediate presence of the teacher.

Boy, was that a mistake. I was never more humiliated than to read my test result and to see his comments about the nerve I had to belittle him by thinking I could cheat so openly and so boldly--and to think I would get away with it.

If you're going to try to cheat on an omnipresent and omniscient educator, then I'll say it as strongly as Luther said his line: Be a cheater and cheat boldly (vigorously). For to do it any other way treats the teacher (God) as if He can't see what you're up to...and that belittles him even more.

33 posted on 07/10/2003 10:48:55 AM PDT by Colofornian
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To: nmh; TheCrusader
Oh dear ... a Catholic has appeared

Not a true catholic in the true sense of the word. For a true catholic is a universalist--one who believes that the Lord's Church is universal and has some sense of charity expressed toward brothers in Christ.

34 posted on 07/10/2003 10:51:11 AM PDT by Colofornian
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To: TheCrusader
I've heard all this before. My husband was taught this--along with the vitriol--in Catholic school. I see that his was not the only one.
35 posted on 07/10/2003 10:58:15 AM PDT by twigs
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To: Truelove
You being "Intelligent" and all, I was just trying to follow your reasoning, which seems to be:

IF that reasoning is valid, wouldn't it necessarily follow, then, that --

?

Dan

36 posted on 07/10/2003 11:16:11 AM PDT by BibChr ("...behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD, so what wisdom is in them?" [Jer. 8:9])
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To: AnalogReigns
There was an excellent, but little known movie many years ago called "Luther". It was essentially a one-man show covering Luther's life, featuring a tour-de-force performance by Stacy Keach.

I recently toured a Lutheran seminary with my son. Outside the library we were shown an object in a display case that purported to be Luther's death mask. The face portrayed in great detail was that of an old, sickly man. When I later looked at pictures online of other copies of the death mask (one in the German city of Halle as I recall), I felt that they looked more like portraits I had seen of Luther. Maybe the seminary doesn't put the real death mask on display.

37 posted on 07/10/2003 11:18:55 AM PDT by wideminded
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To: BibChr
Christians living centuries ago admitted that Jesus Christ was God incarnate

The Roman Catholic Church of today claims ownership of those men

Therefore, the Roman Catholic Church owns/invented Jesus Christ

To refute: I admit that my desk is grey, that does not mean that I own it. My husband claims me on his tax return, he doesn't own my desk either.

If your logic is correct, then I freely admit that a million dollars exists on paper somewhere in Ft. Knox. Do I own it yet? Did I invent it?

Hence admission of a truth does not equate to ownership of the fact or the object to which it is applied. Pax Vobiscum.

38 posted on 07/10/2003 12:26:26 PM PDT by Truelove (qui tacet consentit)
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To: Truelove
Very good. Therefore, your response —

Oh yeah, those Scriptures...where did he get those again? Oh! Now I know. The One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. Doh!

— was irrelevant. The Roman Catholic Church no more owns, created, nor invented Scripture than it owns, created, nor invented Jesus Christ.

Dan

39 posted on 07/10/2003 12:33:37 PM PDT by BibChr ("...behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD, so what wisdom is in them?" [Jer. 8:9])
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To: BibChr
Don't own Sacred Scripture. Didn't create it. Didn't invent it. Did define it.

The Catholic Church in 350 AD declared some of the many writings of the time to be "Divinely Inspired".

Luther was the one that decided that this particular group of inspired writings was the be-all, end-all reference for matters of the Faith. Catholics have a whole Magisterium and thousands of years of Sacred Oral Tradition to draw from.

BTW: Sola Scriptura can be refuted by the fact that no where in the "Bible" does it say that the "Bible" is the sole authority on the Faith and salvation.

40 posted on 07/10/2003 1:04:55 PM PDT by Truelove (qui tacet consentit)
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To: AnalogReigns
>>Personally, I think, but for Luther's courage, there would have been no eventual United States of America...and we'd live in a very different world...

Yea, if it weren't for him we would be living in a Christian world and nation today. Thanks to Luther and Calvin, we now live in a Post-Christian world. I'd choose a Christian world any day over what we have now.

The problem Luther had was that while he initial sough to reform the Church, he threw the baby out with the bath water. His theology is simply that -- his. It wasn't the faith handed down by Christ but Luthers perversion of it.

Thanks to Luther we also have 19,000 protestant denominations. We have so many contradictory theologies it isn't funny.



41 posted on 07/10/2003 1:05:44 PM PDT by 1stFreedom
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To: homeschool_dad
>>Here's my choice: follow Christ to heaven or the pope to hell. Ummmmmm...... any guess which one I'll be choosing?

Your question is seriously flawed. You do not follow Christ but mand made theology authored by the so called reformers.
42 posted on 07/10/2003 1:08:02 PM PDT by 1stFreedom
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To: Truelove
Untrue in almost every particular.

But we'll just stick with your yielding of the grossly overused, hollow assertion that the Roman Catholic Church of today has any ownership of Scripture because early Christians acknowledged its inspiration. It's a kind of progress.

Dan
43 posted on 07/10/2003 1:23:06 PM PDT by BibChr ("...behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD, so what wisdom is in them?" [Jer. 8:9])
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To: 1stFreedom; homeschool_dad
You do not follow Christ but mand made theology authored by the so called reformers.

Gracious, perhaps he should beg your indulgence?

44 posted on 07/10/2003 1:38:43 PM PDT by LTCJ
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To: 1stFreedom
"Thanks to Luther we also have 19,000 protestant denominations. We have so many contradictory theologies it isn't funny. "

1. I imagine there are 19,000 or more contradictory theological positions allowed within the RC church these days. 2. Unlike about 18,990 of those "denominations", the Lutherans have a prominent and unchanging set of written confessions.

45 posted on 07/10/2003 8:22:31 PM PDT by old-ager
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To: old-ager
>>1. I imagine there are 19,000 or more contradictory theological positions allowed within the RC church these days.

Wrong. You confuse people's OPINION with what the Church teaches. There is only one opinion, not 19,000. What you are addressing is about dissent, not about official teachings.

>>2. Unlike about 18,990 of those "denominations", the Lutherans have a prominent and unchanging set of written confessions.

As a former Lutheran (ELCA) I can tell you that Luther is turning over in his grave right now. My pastor was fired because he refused to stop preaching against the evils of the day. The Lutheran Church has the same problem as the Catholic Church -- dissenters.
46 posted on 07/10/2003 8:26:02 PM PDT by 1stFreedom
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To: AnalogReigns
This was very well done.

As a Catholic, there were aspects of Luther's life of which I was unaware. I didn't realize he was so scrupulous, with his multiple confessions, daily.

He was obsessed, with many things. No wonder he sought salvation outside the Catholic Church, since the Church had brought him torment.

I don't agree with his leaving the Church; had he stayed, he would likely be one of the greatest saints in Catholicism.

He may be a saint anyway, but there were a number of huge egos involved in the Reformation, on both sides.

47 posted on 07/10/2003 8:38:20 PM PDT by sinkspur
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To: Colofornian
Colofornian: thanks for your lively defense of the truth.
Well, the papacy wasn't the Antichrist,

The Lutheran (and other) confessions state that the office or seat of the papacy has the marks of "The Great" anti-Christ. Not a popular doctrine. Individual popes may be Christians, but the office of the pope blasphemes by claiming to intermediate between humans and the true mediator, Christ, and by requiring sinful works to be added to His sinless and perfect work in order to be saved. Roman confessions (Council of Trent) state that anyone who says we are saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone is damned to hell. This is essence of anti-Christ doctrine.

48 posted on 07/10/2003 8:40:27 PM PDT by old-ager
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To: AnalogReigns
Nice documentary, and one that I'll probably purchase on DVD for future watching. However, the talking head female from Arizona with the glasses and white William Penn hair caused me to claw my eyes out of their sockets, so I'm blind now and will be able to enjoy only the soundtrack.
49 posted on 07/10/2003 8:44:59 PM PDT by strela ("Each of us can find a maggot in our past which will happily devour our futures." Horatio Hornblower)
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To: sinkspur
"I don't agree with his leaving the Church"

He did not leave -- he was excommunicated. He wanted to reform the church. Historically, Lutherans have been criticized for retaining so much that looks Roman. This is proof, if any were needed, that Luther only got rid of unscriptural doctrines and practices and kept everything else that could be kept -- liturgy, the two sacraments, church fathers.

50 posted on 07/10/2003 8:45:39 PM PDT by old-ager
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