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Gun safety teacher shot in accident
Syracuse Post-Standard ^ | July 10, 2003 | Pedro Ramirez III and John O'Brien

Posted on 07/10/2003 4:04:58 AM PDT by jalisco555

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Gary Kassel, 56, of Syracuse, was unloading the .40-caliber Glock and didn't realize there was still a round in the chamber when he pointed the gun at the cement floor and pulled the trigger "to render the gun safe," deputies said. A bullet ricocheted off the floor and struck Sacco.

Um, I must have have been daydreaming during that part of my firearm safety course. I sure don't remember being taught that!

1 posted on 07/10/2003 4:04:59 AM PDT by jalisco555
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2 posted on 07/10/2003 4:06:45 AM PDT by Support Free Republic (Your support keeps Free Republic going strong!)
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To: jalisco555
Gary Kassel, 56, of Syracuse was where he needed to be. In a class for dumbazzes.
3 posted on 07/10/2003 4:17:03 AM PDT by Conspiracy Guy (If I can support FR with two kids in college, you can too. Freedom aint free but you can charge it.)
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To: jalisco555
I thought everyone passed those safety classes. Guess I was wrong.
4 posted on 07/10/2003 4:19:03 AM PDT by Pearls Before Swine (South-south-west, south, south-east, east....)
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To: jalisco555
I can not help but think , that maybe, that if the gun safety teacher had been a better teacher, that would not of happened.

When I took my Gun Safety Class and went to the firing range to fire the pistol , for the shooting test, I was suprised to see that the board across the range that you rest your gun on had bullet holes in it, were guns accidentally went off.

The Gun teacher was negligent, in having a bullet in that gun or any gun in that room, he should of had all of his guns empty before, any new student walked into that class.

5 posted on 07/10/2003 4:24:20 AM PDT by AmericanMade1776
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To: jalisco555
But of course it is a quick method of removing whatever is up the spout and following the procedure you have an empty, and therefor safem, firearm.

It is the transitional events that are problematic.

6 posted on 07/10/2003 4:35:22 AM PDT by Clive
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To: jalisco555
Gary Kassel, 56, of Syracuse, was unloading the .40-caliber Glock and didn't realize there was still a round in the chamber when he pointed the gun at the cement floor and pulled the trigger "to render the gun safe," deputies said.

The correct unloading sequence is to take the magazine out, then pull the slide back to eject a round that might be in the chamber, then look in the chamber to make sure it's empty, Cominolli said. The trigger shouldn't be pulled at all when unloading, he said.

Thatsssss riiiiight.....at least he had the weapon pointed in the right direction...unfortunately the right direction was made of cement.......

7 posted on 07/10/2003 5:12:33 AM PDT by joesnuffy (Moderate Islam Is For Dilettantes)
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To: *bang_list

8 posted on 07/10/2003 5:14:34 AM PDT by Joe Brower ("Oh, bother", said Pooh, as he chambered another round.)
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To: AmericanMade1776
I can not help but think , that maybe, that if the gun safety teacher had been a better teacher, that would not of happened.

I think firearm safety has been a chronic problem with Onondaga County law enforcement. They've been trying to blame Glock for years for their own negligent behavior.

9 posted on 07/10/2003 5:27:55 AM PDT by jalisco555 (Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain.)
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To: jalisco555
The glock struck one.....

Hickory Dickory Dock
10 posted on 07/10/2003 5:28:13 AM PDT by 8mmMauser (Left is opposite of right)
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To: jalisco555
I keep telling non-believers; A Glock will fire EVERY time you pull the trigger ;)
11 posted on 07/10/2003 5:32:16 AM PDT by SJSAMPLE
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To: Pearls Before Swine
I thought everyone passed those safety classes. Guess I was wrong.

They didn't say he flunked. He just shot the teacher. As to the correct sequence of unloading, I thought this was the sequence for every semi-auto (drop the clip, clear the chamber, check for a round). Pretty obvious that you can't clear the chamber with a loaded clip in the weapon.

12 posted on 07/10/2003 5:34:18 AM PDT by Richard Kimball
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To: jalisco555
there was still a round in the chamber

NRA rules are VERY specific and emphatic regarding the prohibition of live ammunition in the training area. This guy was IN HIS HOUSE, not at the range, teaching what was probably basic operating principles.

Substituting live ammo for snap cap/dummy training ammo in a classroom environment is exceptionally foolish.

13 posted on 07/10/2003 5:36:52 AM PDT by xsrdx (Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas)
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To: AmericanMade1776
I can not help but think , that maybe, that if the gun safety teacher had been a better teacher, that would not of happened.

Sometimes all the safety precautions and instruction in the world cannot prevent a dumbass from doing dumbass things. Had a guy next to me in a CCW class do almost the same thing, luckily no one was hurt. He was quickly yanked out of the firing line. He was an old man and when we finished and were leaving the instructor was "instructing" him one on one.

14 posted on 07/10/2003 5:38:27 AM PDT by ladtx ("...the very obsession of your public service must be Duty, Honor, Country." D. MacArthur)
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To: joesnuffy
The trigger shouldn't be pulled at all when unloading

Sorry, bud - natch. The only way to "decock" a Glock is to pull the trigger.

And the gun isn't truly considered "unloaded" until the striker is released.

15 posted on 07/10/2003 5:41:43 AM PDT by xsrdx (Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas)
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To: joesnuffy
bud = Cominolli, not joesnuffy :^O
16 posted on 07/10/2003 5:44:00 AM PDT by xsrdx (Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas)
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To: jalisco555
Ruger has had a de-cocking mechanism that blocks the firing pin before releasing the hammer. Just use the darned thing and this type of incident will never happen to you.
17 posted on 07/10/2003 5:57:35 AM PDT by Blood of Tyrants (Even if the government took all your earnings, you wouldn’t be, in its eyes, a slave.)
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To: xsrdx
And the gun isn't truly considered "unloaded" until the striker is released.

Yep. This was the procedure we followed in Bosnia. Drop the mag, charge the weapon three times, inspect chamber, point in a safe direction (into clearing barrel for example) and pull trigger.

What's funny is- people still screwed that up every once in a while. How? Don't ask me, but there's always some dim bulb that will dick up the safest "safing" procedure.

18 posted on 07/10/2003 6:14:09 AM PDT by Prodigal Son
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To: AmericanMade1776
When signing up for a concealed carry class, writtten notification was given that

  1. A pistol and ammunition were to be brought to the course location;
  2. Students would line up and present their UNLOADED weapons either in a holster or in a box for inspection before entering the classroom;
  3. Ammunition was to remain in vehicles;
  4. If any weapon or ammunition was discovered during inspection or in the classroom, automatic expulsion sans refund would result;

My initial reaction to the fact that the instructor donned a vest before starting the inspections was amusement until I thought about the number of accidental discharges that occur each year, and that the instructors had no way of knowing whether any given student was a yahoo or not.

19 posted on 07/10/2003 6:32:10 AM PDT by George Smiley (Is the RKBA still a right if you have to get the government's permission before you can exercise it?)
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To: jalisco555
Internal hammer + no decocking lever + dumbass = BOOM!
20 posted on 07/10/2003 6:36:09 AM PDT by Manic_Episode (My mind is aglow whirling with transient nodes of thought careening thru a cosmic vapor of invention)
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To: George Smiley; glock rocks
Gary Kassel, 56, of Syracuse, was unloading the .40-caliber Glock and didn't realize there was still a round in the chamber when he pointed the gun at the cement floor and pulled the trigger "to render the gun safe," deputies said.

Anyone ever notice when incidents like this occur, or in criminal shootings, Glocks are the only guns mentioned by name?

The gun grabbers really have a hard-on when it comes to the lack of a manual safety, among other things.

21 posted on 07/10/2003 6:38:11 AM PDT by Euro-American Scum (Conservative babes with guns are so hot)
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To: Euro-American Scum
Sorry, but as soon as I read just the headline I thought, "Glock".
22 posted on 07/10/2003 6:45:09 AM PDT by robertpaulsen
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To: jalisco555
The correct unloading sequence is to take the magazine out, then pull the slide back to eject a round that might be in the chamber, then look in the chamber to make sure it's empty...

That last part is the critical one. It doesn't matter how badly you screw up the order; if you look inside and you see a shiny brass thingee, it ain't unloaded!

Of course, that applies to any make. It's not just a Glock thing.

23 posted on 07/10/2003 6:45:44 AM PDT by Redcloak (All work and no FReep makes Jack a dull boy. All work and no FReep make s Jack a dul boy. Allwork an)
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To: jalisco555
note to self:

first, TALK.
THEN hang up.
(in that order...)

24 posted on 07/10/2003 6:48:32 AM PDT by dogbrain
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To: xsrdx
Cornholio?

Are you threatening me?

I NEED TP!

25 posted on 07/10/2003 6:50:37 AM PDT by Redcloak (All work and no FReep makes Jack a dull boy. All work and no FReep make s Jack a dul boy. Allwork an)
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To: jalisco555
I've never even touched a gun in my life and even I know that an semi-automatic handgun isn't unloaded until you take the round out of the chamber.
26 posted on 07/10/2003 7:02:25 AM PDT by Sofa King (-I am Sofa King- tired of liberal BS!)
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To: Euro-American Scum
The gun grabbers really have a hard-on when it comes to the lack of a manual safety, among other things.

It's not the lack of a manual safety in this case, it's just the nature of striker-fired guns in general. Since there is no hammer you can lower or decocker you can use, the only way to decock the pistol is by pulling the trigger. Perfectly safe as long as you always make sure the chamber is empty. Glocks are certainly exceptionally safe when used within the parameters of their design, but they are by nature not terribly "idiot friendly".

27 posted on 07/10/2003 7:03:35 AM PDT by RogueIsland
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To: AmericanMade1776
Not only what you mentioned, but pointing at a concrete floor and pulling the trigger. Are we talking Darwin candiates here or what? Do they think a bullet will magically stop the moment it hits concrete or steel, if there was a round in the chamber?
28 posted on 07/10/2003 7:03:50 AM PDT by af_vet_rr
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To: robertpaulsen; Euro-American Scum
funny... the first thing I thought of was...

hmmm... must have some major gun legislation coming up.


that aside, I run a cold range. this darwin candidate was giving cherrys live ammo in his house. stupidity should hurt. he was lucky.

btw... I've seen kitchen windows shot out by an "empty" 1911, and a ceiling ventilated by a 12ga.

glocks don't have a monopoly on being handled carelessly.
29 posted on 07/10/2003 7:11:41 AM PDT by glock rocks (remember, only YOU can prevent fundraisers. become a monthly donor.)
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To: Eaker; Bacon Man
Bang - I mean ping!
30 posted on 07/10/2003 7:12:21 AM PDT by Xenalyte (I may not agree with your bumper sticker, but I'll defend to the death your right to stick it)
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To: joesnuffy
Guns dont wound idiot instructors, idiot instructors wound idiot instructors.
31 posted on 07/10/2003 7:17:01 AM PDT by SquirrelKing
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To: jalisco555
Perhaps this guy should have stuck with teaching students how to defend themselves against fresh fruit...and pointed sticks.
32 posted on 07/10/2003 7:19:39 AM PDT by dfwgator
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To: jalisco555
bump
33 posted on 07/10/2003 7:20:54 AM PDT by Jason_b
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Uh, dunno about other folks, but I call self loading weapons "safe" when I've removed the clip, worked the slide or bolt and _visually_ inspected the chamber and carrier to make certain there is no ammo in the weapon.
Even if it is empty, you are not supposed to dry-fire a weapon anyway.
Conclusion: The instructor was stupid or his students were not listening (and he was stupid to trust 'em!).

Still, as they say in Cowboy Action Shooting: there are two types of Cowboys; ones who have been DQ'd and ones who WILL be DQ'd.
34 posted on 07/10/2003 7:29:04 AM PDT by Little Ray (Stupid, STUPID rat creature...)
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To: glock rocks
"hmmm... must have some major gun legislation coming up."

Oops! I didn't know that card-carrying NRA members (member #025870227) were not allowed to criticize (hushed breath) Glock. Cool it with the inference.

Maybe Glocks don't have a monopoly on being handled carelessly, but you wouldn't believe it by the news reports. That was my point.

35 posted on 07/10/2003 7:35:13 AM PDT by robertpaulsen
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To: Richard Kimball
They didn't say he flunked. He just shot the teacher.

LOL. If at first you don't succeed, try again.

36 posted on 07/10/2003 7:45:53 AM PDT by Pearls Before Swine (South-south-west, south, south-east, east....)
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To: jalisco555
Violated Cooper's Rules #1, 2, AND 3.
37 posted on 07/10/2003 7:45:59 AM PDT by Ed Straker
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To: jalisco555
"He screwed the procedure up," said Cominolli, who designed and patented a manual safety device that can be added to Glocks. He based his opinion about Sacco's shooting on the description given by deputies. "It's a typical screw-up with the gun."

I don't like Glocks but this had nothing to do with the design of that specific design. The quote is also from an "inventor" who seems to be pushing his product.

I have seen IDPA members reverse the order of clearing a semi-suto which shocked the heck out of me. That's one of the reasons I don't believe in pulling the trigger as the last "test" whether it loaded or not.

38 posted on 07/10/2003 8:01:18 AM PDT by Shooter 2.5 (Don't punch holes in the lifeboat)
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To: George Smiley
George...in my Gun class here in massachusetts...the instructor had all the guns, and all the students , no matter what their background, were considered to be novices. The Instructor made sure all of his guns were empty, before the class began and at all times. Only during the actually shooting test, were we allowed to have a loaded gun, by that time the instructor was assured we knew how to handle a gun. The Gun test was also a one on one with the instructor.
39 posted on 07/10/2003 8:17:18 AM PDT by AmericanMade1776
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To: dfwgator
he is probably thinking the same thing this morning
40 posted on 07/10/2003 8:18:39 AM PDT by AmericanMade1776
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To: jalisco555
Gary Kassel, 56, of Syracuse, was unloading the .40-caliber Glock and didn't realize there was still a round in the chamber when he pointed the gun at the cement floor and pulled the trigger "to render the gun safe," deputies said. A bullet ricocheted off the floor and struck Sacco.

Other than the fact that it ricocheted and hit the instructor, the guy really didn't do anything WRONG per se.

Now, were I an instructor, I'd make sure that I had a barrel full of sand for students to point their weapons into as they unload them (like you see outside EVERY marine armory)

41 posted on 07/10/2003 8:21:50 AM PDT by Centurion2000 (We are crushing our enemies, seeing him driven before us and hearing the lamentations of the liberal)
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To: Shooter 2.5
Cominolli, who designed and patented a manual safety device that can be added to Glocks.

According to one of the range tests I've taken:

Main Entry: 1safe·ty
Pronunciation: 'sAf-tE
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural safeties
Etymology: Middle English saufte, from Middle French sauveté, from Old French,
from sauve, feminine of sauf safe
Date: 14th century
1 : A mechanical device which can fail.

42 posted on 07/10/2003 8:29:23 AM PDT by George Smiley (Is the RKBA still a right if you have to get the government's permission before you can exercise it?)
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To: robertpaulsen
"hmmm... must have some major gun legislation coming up."

translation: the AWB sunset is provoking lots of gun stories lately... and no matter how minor, portrayal of the evils of guns will increase.

fwiw, I carry a SIG because of the decocker.

43 posted on 07/10/2003 8:29:32 AM PDT by glock rocks (remember, only YOU can prevent fundraisers. become a monthly donor.)
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To: jalisco555
Can someone tell me if the slide on a Glock stays open after the last shot like on a 1911?

I've fired a Glock before but I forget.

It's usually a good indicator if there's a bullet in the chamber if the slide's open and you can see in it.

44 posted on 07/10/2003 10:10:14 AM PDT by NJ Freeper
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To: NJ Freeper
Yes.
45 posted on 07/10/2003 10:43:14 AM PDT by jdogbearhunter
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To: jalisco555
The only "safety" is that gray matter between your ears.
46 posted on 07/10/2003 11:01:24 AM PDT by TexasRepublic
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To: RogueIsland; glock rocks
Perfectly safe as long as you always make sure the chamber is empty.

Amen! Amen! And Amen! (Can you say Hallelujah!)

Glocks are certainly exceptionally safe when used within the parameters of their design, but they are by nature not terribly "idiot friendly".

You would think that the concept of "finger off the trigger" would be a no-brainer for ever the most dense idiots, regardless of the weapon in use. Guess not.

47 posted on 07/10/2003 11:25:58 AM PDT by Euro-American Scum (Conservative babes with guns are so hot)
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To: jalisco555
Um, I must have have been daydreaming during that part of my firearm safety course. I sure don't remember being taught that!

Once coming back from hunting, I almost pulled the trigger of my '06 to 'render it safe'. Had the finger on the trigger but thought better. Opened the bolt to find a cartridge! A little thought saved the car and my sanity.

48 posted on 07/10/2003 11:29:46 AM PDT by cinFLA
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To: Shooter 2.5
Shooter 2.5 said: 'That's one of the reasons I don't believe in pulling the trigger as the last "test" whether it loaded or not.'

Right.... If you have to pull the trigger to be sure, then you are not sure.

I seem to recall that disassembling many semi-automatic rifles, such as the M1A, require that the hammer be cocked and the safety set in a particular way ( can't remember whether "on" or "off").

The instructions with the Glock call for pulling the trigger, with the pistol pointing in a safe direction, as part of the disassembly procedure, immediately after checking to ensure that there is no round in the chamber. It may be that the striker mechanism must be de-cocked for proper disassembly and assembly.

My Kimber Ultra-Carry specifies that the trigger be pulled, to drop the hammer on an empty chamber, after checking to see that the chamber is empty. There is no warning to point it in a safe direction, though we all know to do that. Disassembly calls for racking the slide, which will re-cock the hammer.

The general rule seems to be that there is no "general rule" and that the user must know the particulars of the firearm they are handling.

49 posted on 07/10/2003 12:32:27 PM PDT by William Tell
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To: jalisco555
"If you're doing a malfunction drill or teaching someone how to load and unload, with a student you don't use live ammo," Cominolli said. "You don't even do that with cops."

All the cops I know would put up quite a fight if you tried to load them into a pistol.

50 posted on 07/10/2003 12:41:37 PM PDT by LTCJ
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