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Right to carry would disprove horror stories
Kansas City Star Newspaper ^ | July 12, 2003 | By JOHN R. LOTT JR.

Posted on 07/12/2003 5:36:19 AM PDT by jmq

Posted on Sat, Jul. 12, 2003

Right to carry would disprove horror stories By JOHN R. LOTT JR. Special to The Star

Gov. Bob Holden finally vetoed the right-to-carry legislation last week, expressing fears about the risks the law poses for police and children.

With more than 70 percent of the Missouri House and Senate already voting for the bill, the expected veto override battle appears to be coming down to a single vote in the Senate.

Gun control advocates such as Holden are right to fear the right-to-carry bill's passage, but not for the reason that most people think. Despite panicked claims that innocent people will be killed and there will be shootouts in the streets, here is a prediction: A year after enactment Missouri's newspapers will report that all the horror stories about letting citizens carry concealed handguns were wrong. The real loser will be gun control advocates' credibility.

My prediction does not really involve going out on a limb. The bill allows trained, law-abiding citizens to carry concealed handguns for their protection, and Missouri's law will be the most restrictive right-to-carry law in the nation.

One needs only to look at the other 32 states with right-to-carry laws where we have had enough time to see what happens. A year after the law goes into effect, newspaper articles in state after state announce that the supposed fears never materialized. It is particularly hard to see why these worries are taken seriously in Missouri, four of whose neighbors have right-to-carry laws.

Michigan, the most recent state to have a right-to-carry law in effect for at least a year, adopted it in 2001. Last year newspapers such as the Detroit News regularly reported that: "Such self-defense has not yet resulted in any kind of wave of new gun violence among those with fresh...permits, several law enforcement officials throughout Metro Detroit agreed."

And consider the two largest states with right-to-carry laws, Florida and Texas. In the 15 years after Florida's concealed-carry law took effect in October 1987, about 800,000 licenses were issued. Only 143 of these (two-hundredths of 1 percent) were revoked because of firearms-related violations.

But even this statistic overstates the risks, as almost all of these cases apparently resulted from people accidentally carrying a gun into a restricted area, such as an airport. No one claims that these unintentional violations posed any harm. In general, permit-holders were model law-abiders. Even off-duty police officers in Florida were convicted of violent crimes at a higher rate than permit-holders.

The experience in Texas was similar. From 1996 through 1999, the first four years that Texas' concealed-handgun law was in effect, 215,000 people were licensed. Permit holders turned out to be law-abiding, with licensees convicted of a crime only 6 percent as often as other adult Texans.

Data for other states are also available and paint a similar picture. Thus, it is not surprising that no state with a right-to-carry law has repealed it.

One particular fear raised by Holden is that right-to-carry laws would actually make police officers' jobs more dangerous by making it more likely that they would be shot. Yet research has shown that the laws make police safer. Professor David Mustard at the University of Georgia found that right-to-carry laws reduced the rate that officers were killed by about 2 percent per year for each year that the laws were in effect. Several studies find that as law-abiding citizens are allowed to defend themselves, criminals are much less likely to carry guns. Fewer criminals carrying guns makes the jobs of police less dangerous.

While Missouri's police organizations are generally neutral, national surveys show the police support concealed handgun laws by a 3-1 majority. Many former strong opponents to right-to-carry laws across the country have changed their positions after the laws have been in effect for a couple of years.

Glenn White, president of the Dallas Police Association, provides a typical response: "I lobbied against the law in 1993 and 1995 because I thought it would lead to wholesale armed conflict. That hasn't happened....I think it's worked out well, and that says good things about the citizens who have permits. I'm a convert."

When he vetoed the right-to-carry bill, Holden also claimed that right-to-carry laws would increase accidental shootings, but there is not one academic study that finds that to be true. For violent crime, refereed academic studies range from showing that right-to-carry laws at worst have little or no benefit to most research finding large reductions that increase as more permits are issued.

A year after the right-to-carry law is enacted, Missourians will wonder what all the fuss was about. Those declaring that Missourians' safety is endangered will lose credibility once people see that it is criminals and not law-abiding citizens who have the most to fear from Missourians' being able to defend themselves.

John R. Lott Jr. is a resident scholar at the American Enterprise Institute and author of the just-released book The Bias Against Guns.


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Government; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections; US: Missouri
KEYWORDS: 2ndamendment; banglist; ccw; ccwgunbang; concealcarry; guncontrol; guns; righttocarry
OTB please read. Feel the votes!
1 posted on 07/12/2003 5:36:20 AM PDT by jmq
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To: All
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2 posted on 07/12/2003 5:38:14 AM PDT by Support Free Republic (Your support keeps Free Republic going strong!)
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To: bang
Bttt

5.56mm

3 posted on 07/12/2003 5:38:44 AM PDT by M Kehoe
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To: jmq
bump for later reading
4 posted on 07/12/2003 5:46:19 AM PDT by Badray (Molon Labe!)
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To: jmq
The GOP led legislature is set to override Boob Holden's veto on this matter.

And worse for the rats, Boob's "base" is in for a bad time ahead when the citizens of Missouri begin carrying weapons legally - and using them - to clean the streets of criminals.




5 posted on 07/12/2003 5:49:27 AM PDT by mgc1122
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To: *bang_list
John Lott BANG!
6 posted on 07/12/2003 5:51:30 AM PDT by wysiwyg (What parts of "right of the people" and "shall not be infringed" do you not understand?)
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To: *bang_list
BTTT
7 posted on 07/12/2003 5:59:47 AM PDT by jcparks (I kill mosquitoes, leaches, ticks, and all other blood sucking parasites)
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To: jmq; *bang_list; Joe Brower; rface
I can't believe the Red Star actually printed this! I guess they knew there would be more heat if it was revealed that they refused to print it. Expect Louis DooGood, Laura Scott and the rest of the hysterical weenies at the Star editorial staff to go ballistic.

One Term Bob may have his veto thrown back in his face on this issue. Holden never travels anywhere except in state owned planes, with numerous bodyguards, but he won't let the working men and women who travel in dangerous neighborhoods at all hours of the day and night defend themselves. This is eliteism at its worst.

Thanks for posting this, jmq.

8 posted on 07/12/2003 6:01:09 AM PDT by TroutStalker
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To: mgc1122
The nutcase that shot those folks at Modine fired 17 rounds at the plant but only had a ten round clip. Think about that for a minute.......
9 posted on 07/12/2003 6:02:57 AM PDT by BOBWADE
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To: TroutStalker
He is a typical Liberal. Doesn't really care about saftey concerns for the citizens of his state, only his political agenda.
10 posted on 07/12/2003 6:04:55 AM PDT by BOBWADE
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To: BOBWADE
Well he's not doing his political agenda much good if he gets reversed on this. And he got beatup on the budget. I don't think Holden is going to survive a primary election challenge by Claire McCaskel.

BTW, did you see that Kansas City Rep. Karen McCarthy's chief of staff resigned? The sixth resignation since her falling down drunk episode where she threw her cell phone at the chief of staff.

11 posted on 07/12/2003 6:15:57 AM PDT by TroutStalker
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To: alfa6; barker; kcpopps; KC Burke; KC_Conspirator; Free State Four; lagamorph; ~Kim4VRWC's~; ...
Bump.
12 posted on 07/12/2003 6:24:13 AM PDT by TroutStalker
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To: TroutStalker
I had not heard about the drunk thing or the resignation, fill me in if you can.
13 posted on 07/12/2003 6:42:03 AM PDT by BOBWADE
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To: TroutStalker
As far as his political agenda goes, he has to know that concealed carry will reduce crime. The big problem is that it flies in the face of the DNC outlook on gun ownership and so once again a liberal does the wrong thing for political reasons. Kind of like selling one's soul to the devil for gold.
14 posted on 07/12/2003 6:45:39 AM PDT by BOBWADE
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To: BOBWADE
U.S. Rep. Karen McCarthy [Kansas City] to seek treatment for a drinking problem ^

Press (KCStar) gives McCarthy pass on missing votes ^

Rep. McCarthy’s staff morale hits bottom ^

Rep. Karen McCarthy's chief of staff resigns  ^

15 posted on 07/12/2003 7:07:50 AM PDT by TroutStalker
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To: jmq
.....the expected veto override battle appears to be coming down to a single vote in the Senate.

Too much to hope for....although I would like them to surprise me. I am thinking of a S&W SW99 .40 no matter what happens with the override.

16 posted on 07/12/2003 7:13:41 AM PDT by rface ( Ashland, Missouri - Missouri's Democrat Gov. Holden is a POS)
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To: rface
Now that S&W is cleaned up and American-owned, why not ?
17 posted on 07/12/2003 7:24:15 AM PDT by Eric in the Ozarks
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To: BOBWADE
He is a typical Liberal. Doesn't really care about saftey concerns for the citizens of his state, only his political agenda.

He should have asked Ann 'Ma' Richards (D) of Texas what happens to governors who veto conceal carry bills...

18 posted on 07/12/2003 7:28:55 AM PDT by Texas Mom
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To: jmq
Even off-duty police officers in Florida were convicted of violent crimes at a higher rate than permit-holders.

That's an interesting factoid.

19 posted on 07/12/2003 7:48:50 AM PDT by randog (Everything works great 'til the current flows.)
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To: TroutStalker
Holden never travels anywhere except in state owned planes, with numerous bodyguards, but he won't let the working men and women who travel in dangerous neighborhoods at all hours of the day and night defend themselves.

You nailed it!!


Eaker

20 posted on 07/12/2003 7:52:15 AM PDT by Eaker (This is OUR country; let's take it back!!!!!)
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To: Texas Mom
He should have asked Ann 'Ma' Richards (D) of Texas what happens to governors who veto conceal carry bills...

You nailed it too!!!

Take care,
Eaker

21 posted on 07/12/2003 7:55:04 AM PDT by Eaker (This is OUR country; let's take it back!!!!!)
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To: rface
"I am thinking of a S&W SW99 .40"

Why would you want a knockoff of a Glock M27 when you could get the real thing at possibly less money? I bought my Glock M27 at a gun show for about $450, new. It comes with a mag that offers 9 + 1 capacity and you gan get a "+1" grip extender and have a 10 rd magazine with excellent ergonomics! I do like the new S & W 99...but as a .45. If you want a subcompact .40, you can'd do any better than the M27.

I sure do hope you guys do two things out there...override this bozo and make him a one term wonder. That's #1. Next, you should concentrate on offering interstae reciprocity for all valid CCW permits as Oklahoma has just done. My own state of Florida is doing this on a state by state basis, but so far has succeeded in nearly tying together the states of the "solid south" for this.

The place to keep track of your permit status is: http://www.packing.org This site should be visited regularly by anybody with an active CCW for reasons that will become self evident once you browse the site.

22 posted on 07/12/2003 8:13:04 AM PDT by ExSoldier (M1911A1: The ORIGINAL "Point and Click" interface!)
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To: ExSoldier
Let me try again. http://www.packing.org This is my very FIRST successful hyperlink!
23 posted on 07/12/2003 8:20:03 AM PDT by ExSoldier (M1911A1: The ORIGINAL "Point and Click" interface!)
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To: TroutStalker
...as law-abiding citizens are allowed to defend themselves, criminals are much less likely to carry guns.

Why in the heck can't liberal gun-grabbers understand this? Oh, yeah, it's not about logic, but about an emotional appeal to the dumbed-down electorate. Sheesh.

24 posted on 07/12/2003 9:34:08 AM PDT by Free State Four
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To: randog
Even off-duty police officers in Florida were convicted of violent crimes at a higher rate than permit-holders.

That's an interesting factoid.

Yes it is. Why does it NOT surprise me and why isn't this fact more widely known to the public.

As I've said before, it is foolish to depend on LEO's to support the 2nd. Amendment.

25 posted on 07/12/2003 9:50:26 AM PDT by elbucko
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To: elbucko; randog
Even off-duty police officers in Florida were convicted of violent crimes at a higher rate than permit-holders.

It's up to us to see that this information is more widely known. Thanks to John Lott one more time for the ammo.

26 posted on 07/12/2003 9:59:08 AM PDT by TroutStalker
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To: ExSoldier
great site! Thanks!
27 posted on 07/12/2003 10:02:35 AM PDT by Smokin' Joe
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To: Free State Four
Emotional appeal, you bet. This is Laura Scott's screed from Thursday (I bet she already knew Lott's article would appear today:

Concealed guns will not help keep children safer ^

28 posted on 07/12/2003 10:04:41 AM PDT by TroutStalker
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To: TroutStalker
It's up to us to see that this information is more widely known.

Yup, and I plan on lobbing that one out at every occassion.

29 posted on 07/12/2003 10:42:12 AM PDT by randog (Everything works great 'til the current flows.)
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To: TroutStalker; Free State Four; rwfromkansas; RAT Patrol
I have a question for you that I'd like your opinions on. In Kansas, as it stands now, some counties elect their judges and the other counties have appointed judges. Johnson County and my county, Shawnee, have appointed judges, and those judges are mostly very left-wing, whereas counties with elected judges, like Sedgwick, tend to be much more conservative. There's talk of getting a movement going to have all judges in every county be elected rather than appointed. What do you think? CCW might be an issue that could be affected by a judge. This thread just made me think of this issue.
30 posted on 07/12/2003 4:32:10 PM PDT by axel f
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To: axel f; TroutStalker; rwfromkansas; RAT Patrol
While it might be a worthwhile endeavor to make all judges subject to the approval of the electorate, I think that concealed carry could sail through the legislative process if we (Johnson County especially) didn't keep sending RINO (or Democratic) governors to Topeka to veto the legislation.

We don't like it when liberal, Demorat judges make law from the bench. We shouldn't do the same, even if we approve the outcome. Unconstitutional is unconstitutional.

But I like your thinking.

31 posted on 07/12/2003 8:15:31 PM PDT by Free State Four
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To: Free State Four
bttt
32 posted on 07/12/2003 9:44:52 PM PDT by Badray (Molon Labe!)
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To: jmq
The socialist blood in the streets excuse is moot after most of the other states have enacted CHL laws. Laws I like to think of as unconstitutional RKBA rental agreements imposed on law abidding Americans as a source of revenue. One state , two states maybe that old sheeple sh*t might have been a wait an see excuse.

Now that 30 (+/-) states have such on the books it is just a clear socialist political sh*t and shineola show to further a seditious agenda by denying folks the right to self defense at all times. The facts and data are in and disprove the gun grabbers lies.

Too bad all states don't follow Alaska and Vermont's lead..........Stay Safe !

33 posted on 07/12/2003 10:39:06 PM PDT by Squantos (Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt.)
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To: Free State Four
I didn't mean to imply that I wanted to elect judges just so we could ram our agenda down everyone's throats. What I meant by "conservative" is that they would interpret the law instead of making it up out of thin air to suit their agenda.

And now that I think about it, CCW is a legislative matter, not judicial. So...don't mind me.

Thanks for your thoughts!
34 posted on 07/13/2003 8:41:52 AM PDT by axel f
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To: axel f
I'm not sure if I prefer elected or appointed. I'd have to think it about it longer than 30 seconds. What I do know is that for those that ARE elected there should be information available on their judgments so that the voter could make an educated decision. This was a real problem for me in the last election.
35 posted on 07/13/2003 12:49:46 PM PDT by lagamorph
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To: jmq
Anyone with any common sense could tell you that any criminal who is going to get into a shootout with the cops isn't going to give a rat's ass about whether or not carrying a gun is legal. Of course, we're dealing with the left here...
36 posted on 07/13/2003 12:53:50 PM PDT by Sofa King (-I am Sofa King- tired of liberal BS!)
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To: lagamorph
I'll get you more information.
37 posted on 07/14/2003 6:05:50 AM PDT by axel f
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To: Free State Four
Oh, yeah, it's not about logic, but about an emotional appeal to

The antis have nothing left to fight with BUT emotion. Every one of the so-called "facts" they have spouted for the last 50 years has been proven false by scientific research such as that by Lott and Mustard. But even more damning to their cause are the undeniable FACTS of how successful shall-issue concealed carry has been in every state where it has been enacted. AFAIK not a single state has seen an increase in violent crime after shall-issue CC was enacted, and instead, almost every state has seen a significant reduction in crime after CC was allowed. The longer the law has been in effect, the greater the reduction in crime. FL was the first state to enact shall issue CC in 1987, and the murder rate dropped by 27% within 8 years.

It's no wonder the antis are fighting the passage of CC laws so bitterly. The laws themselves are proving for everyone to see that everything the antis have been preaching for 50 years was nothing but a pack of big fat lies. Now if we can get congress and GW to see that the entire AW ban nonsense was based on the exact same kind of big lies by the same big fat liars who have lied for decades about CC, maybe we can start on the long road to regaining ALL our 2nd amendment rights that have been whittled away over the last century. Defeating the AW re-authorization bill would be great place to start on that road, and if enough of us let our representatives, and Bush, know how we feel we can do it.

38 posted on 07/14/2003 7:38:20 AM PDT by epow
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