Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Army, Marines rate weapon success
Stars and Stripes ^ | Sunday, July 13, 2003 | Mark Oliva

Posted on 07/13/2003 2:53:59 PM PDT by demlosers

click here to read article


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-5051-100101-111 last
To: Criminal Number 18F
The tankers were desperate for a coax that would run. The old M-219 was the worst POS since the Chauchat. Field stripping it and getting it back together was an all-day affair. We were getting waxed in NATO tank gunnery competitions, partly because we couldn't service the coax targets. I think it was the Brits who first modified a MAG to serve as a coaxial machine gun, and we stole the idea from them.
101 posted on 07/13/2003 9:47:11 PM PDT by Cannoneer No. 4 (Double canister at ten yards)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 92 | View Replies]

To: Criminal Number 18F
The tankers were desperate for a coax that would run. The old M-219 was the worst POS since the Chauchat. Field stripping it and getting it back together was an all-day affair. We were getting waxed in NATO tank gunnery competitions, partly because we couldn't service the coax targets. I think it was the Brits who first modified a MAG to serve as a coaxial machine gun, and we stole the idea from them.
102 posted on 07/13/2003 9:47:30 PM PDT by Cannoneer No. 4 (Double canister at ten yards)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 92 | View Replies]

To: 300winmag
...Unfortunately, the Hague Conventions say FMJ-only

screw the Hague... I packed hydra-shoks in my M-9 (first two round in the mag were FMJ fer "appearances") and thank God I did... they worked well when I needed 'em...

103 posted on 07/14/2003 5:46:01 AM PDT by g'nad
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 95 | View Replies]

To: Shooter 2.5
I'm thinking about bringing my semi-auto-revolver.

You've got a Masteba ? How do those things work ? They look a little too weird for me.

104 posted on 07/14/2003 7:18:01 AM PDT by Centurion2000 (We are crushing our enemies, seeing him driven before us and hearing the lamentations of the liberal)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 80 | View Replies]

To: tortoise
If range and accuracy are the primary concern, they would be better off with a 6.5mm. Hell, they could just neck down 7.62 NATO. Flatter trajectory, way more effective range, and better penetration in the same size package.

7.62 is really the wrong answer to just about any problem the military has these days. Like the 9mm, the only reason it is around is due to legacy issues. There are reasons those cartridges have been dumped in various times and places. We don't need to move backwards, we need to move forward.

6.5 mm is the way to go. Longer effective range than the 5.56, flatter shooting, and the bullets are a bunch heavier. This answers all of the concerns that the folks in combat haved raised (besides the lube issue, and that is independent of what rifle our forces use). I don't think that it would be too hard to put a 6.5 mm upper on an M-16 lower, but that doesn't much matter - for what Uncle pays for rifles (a couple of hundred bucks), I say to just buy brand-spanking-new rifles and mags. Since all soldiers are familiar with handling and sighting in on M-16 variants, keep the same look - but beef up the caliber. If I were in charge, I would put the M-4's sighting system on all of these new rifles.

And .45 is the way to go in combat, since you are restricted to FMJ by treaty. Hollowpoint 9's are fine, but the military can't use them. And if you could use hollowpoints, why wouldn't you want to use a .45 cal. "flying ashtray" anyway?

105 posted on 07/14/2003 10:41:00 AM PDT by Ancesthntr
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 101 | View Replies]

To: Ancesthntr
And .45 is the way to go in combat, since you are restricted to FMJ by treaty.

You are probably better off with a .40, and some modern non-NATO militaries have in fact adopted it (Australia comes to mind). Most of the cartridge capacity and ballistic performance of a 9mm, a fair portion of the size and weight of a .45, and more down-range energy than either 9mm or .45. The .40 splits the middle pretty damn well for a human-killing cartridge.

That we use either .45 or 9mm at all is primarily a legacy of previous wars, and the engineering assumptions that went into both of those cartridges is a century old. One thing to remember about the .45 was that it was originally marketed as a ranch pistol for plugging critters before it was adopted by the US military. There are certain biases evident in the design of both the cartridge and the pistol as to its original intended purpose that make it sub-optimal as a combat cartridge. The 9mm has better engineering parameters for the purposes of a combat cartridge, but nonetheless suffers from being a bit smaller than what is probably optimal for spanking determined monkeys.

106 posted on 07/14/2003 11:07:21 AM PDT by tortoise (All these moments lost in time, like tears in the rain.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 105 | View Replies]

To: Cannoneer No. 4
Thanks for the reply. Was the M219 the thing with the real, real short action (I mean, the whole receiver was about eight inches long) or was that the M37... the one I'm thinking of fed from both sides. You changed the position of something in the bolt carrier, moved some pieces, and voila, it was left hand feed.

Yeah, the Chauchat... one more kiss we owe the French. Well, all the guys who carried that and weren't killed by it are gone now, anyway... it was almost 90 years ago.

Some American weapons, including the M4, have issues, but I can assure everybody that responsible pros are working on them. Guys who know engineering are working with guys who have shot people with it, and all working with the contractors to make a better gun for everybody. We are agitating for wider availability of the effective 77gr Black Hills round, too.

d.o.l.

Criminal Number 18F
107 posted on 07/14/2003 11:51:29 AM PDT by Criminal Number 18F
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 101 | View Replies]

To: Criminal Number 18F
The M219 was based on the M73, which was such a worthless POS that the M219 was considered an improvement. Both guns had short receivers to reduce inboard length and take up less space inside the turret.

According to Jane's Infantry Weapons 1976:

The M219 is (was, thankfully) normally issued as a left hand feed gun. However in some vehicles the gun must have a right hand feedand there is a conversion involving 11 stages which allows the change. Similarly, regardless of the direction of feed, the charging assembly, which is a handle and chain, is normally on the left of the receiver but can be changed over to the right.

I had forgotten about those chains. Busted several. I hated the M219.

108 posted on 07/14/2003 2:14:07 PM PDT by Cannoneer No. 4 (Double canister at ten yards)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 107 | View Replies]

To: Criminal Number 18F
The M-16A1 thru A4 are attempts to make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear. Witness the number of changes made to the design. Bolt assist, a ejected case deflector, three shot burst limiter, hand guard, new ammunition, new rifle twist rate, new sighting system, new flash hider, the list is endless. The M1911 has had ONE. And those were all ergonomic. The original M-16 was developed by Gene Stoner, and marketed by Armalite.

Back in ’61, when I was about 12, an Armalite sales rep staged a demonstration for our county sheriff’s department at the local police range. Since my father was the state Hi-Power expert, he was invited to observe, and I got to go along.

The AR-15 was employed on a cinder wall, and blew it apart. I got to shoot it because the sales rep was trying to sell it on the fact that it had light recoil, as compared to the M-1. One trick he used was to place the butt against his chin and fire single shots.

The sheriff was underwhelmed. These were the days when police departments still cared what the citizens thought of them, and EVERYONE was a combat vet. A series of the 5.56mm rounds, impacting on a soft target, at ranges of 100 yards or less, tends to separate the target into large, soggy pieces. Blowing a felon apart in the middle of downtown was considered bad form, back then.

The Air Force, however, under Curtis LeMay, were the first to adopt the Armalite, for the SAC Air Police, during the early part of the JFK love affair with the Green Beanies. LeMay was hot to get funding, was jealous of what he considered undue attention being paid to what he considered a bunch of muddy, smelly snake eaters, and loved the latest Buck Rodgers toys. He wanted to show that zoomies could crawl thru the weeds with the best of them.

The Army adopted the Mattie Mattel because attempts to teach doggies how to shoot, without actually spending time snapping in, and further time living, eating and worshiping the great God, Rifle, were a failure. The current issue weapon, the M-14, required that the rifleman be comfortable with shooting. Instead, with the M-16, there was the “quickshoot” training, where the troopies were taught to replace aimed shot placement with “suppressing fires”, (spraying the area in hopes of a hit, witness the duplex round as another such attempt) by walking down a path and blasting away on full auto at pop-up targets.

The ARVNs got them next, when even the Five-Sided Square finally determined that the average dink was too small to handle a surplus M-1, and that the M-1 carbine can’t kill very well.

Well into Da'Nam, The Corps liked the idea of being able to shoot thru a palm tree and kill the man behind it.

The polite, Democratic, fiction that the ’16 was meant to wound and not kill, thus occupying 3 more caring individuals and burdening the logistics, is just that, fiction. An M-16 will rip a man to bits with one burst, at 75 meters. At 750 meters, you're just going to piss him off. Any wounded the VC, and later the NVA cared for, were most often injured by shell fragments. Care of the wounded is contingent on access to prompt medical treatment. Too often, mercy to the wounded is a bullet in the head. A man who has been gutted like a fish can live a surprisingly long time, and will scream every second of the rest of his life. Tactics indicate that whoever goes after him will get shot. Traumatic injuries often will not allow the injured man to politely bleed to death, and shock is not always a reliable anesthetic. When you add to the equation that if the Other side gets hold of him, they will see how long They can prolong his suffering, like sticking his wedding tackle on a twig several feet away, or peeling him like a banana, a bullet now is not such a bad offer.

The M-14 can be fired dry. This is not such a bad thing in the desert. The '14 is, however, too large for your average half-starved "freedom fighter."

Until the Geneva Convention is ignored, and frangible bullets are allowed, the 9mm will remain a joke. I watched a Spook who decided to bring his 9mm Swedish "K" gun on a snoop and poop in the Weeds. Events were that he emptied a full mag into a really P.O.d dink, who was about ready to gut the spook with a knife when a 12 Ga. loaded with dimes removed a big piece of meat and Mr. Charles went down...

If you have to let a bad guy, who you have seen approaching for the last week get within 100 meters to be able to put him away, there is something wrong with your weapon.

109 posted on 07/14/2003 7:47:54 PM PDT by jonascord (To Robert Service, with respect)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 82 | View Replies]

To: Shooter 2.5
Bump to the top.
110 posted on 07/15/2003 8:21:19 AM PDT by Shooter 2.5 (Don't punch holes in the lifeboat)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 109 | View Replies]

To: jonascord
Well, you've got some strong opinions. Let me answer 'em briefly.
  1. changes to the M16: they were made for all kinds of different reasons. The deflector was for lefties; the round and twist rate required because the Marines wanted to shoot at stuff 800 yards away. The forward assist was a reaction to a screwup: Army bureaucrats changed the powder in the ammunition to an unsuitable load. The sights and handguard are product improvements -- that happens to a 40 year old product. The 3-shot burst is just retarded. It's what they do instead of training soldiers properly. I dunno why the Marines have it too -- they train their guys better. But you know, look at the generic 1911s in any gunshop and you'll see a lot more variation. Heck, look at the guns at a high-power match.
  2. A series of 5.56 rounds into a human at 100 yards makes holes in the human... it don't shred him. Sounds to me like hearsay.
  3. LeMay was a gun nut, and a gadget freak (not unusual traits in aviators). That's why he adopted the new, high-tech Stoner design. It had nothing to do with special ops. LeMay was a strategic bomber and interdiction enthusiast who cared little for what the Air Force then called the "Air Commandos." The security police are a different bunch... but one of their jobs was keeping his precious B-52s, RB-47s and B-58s safe.
  4. The "quick kill" training for the 16 was based on training Fairbairn developed in WWII for the Commandos and SOE. It is advanced training, given AFTER the soldier masters shooting on a range. In fact, it's coming back with the SBCTs. (Special Ops never entirely gave it up, and it's part of two of their most important shooting schools).
  5. Except for CIDG which had separate funding, Marvin the ARVN carried an M1. Until about 1970-71.
  6. At 750 metres, you are not in rifle engagement range. You are in crew-served weapons range. There were very few places in Vietnam where you could see a man at 750 metres.
  7. Likewise, the "half starved freedom fighters" I've worked with have no problem toting, say, a PKM and 600 rounds of ammo up a hill. Your average third world country boy is scrawny beyond belief, but he's walked his whole life and is in great cardiovascular condition.
  8. "mercy to the wounded is a bullet in the head" sounds like something from a movie, not real life. We treated our wounded, till we medevac'd them. We also treated prisoners. The right thing to do on several levels.
d.o.l.

Criminal Number 18F

111 posted on 07/15/2003 6:25:18 PM PDT by Criminal Number 18F (who took his life in his hands with that little Mattel, and is still overground.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 109 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-5051-100101-111 last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson