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Army, Marines rate weapon success
Stars and Stripes ^ | Sunday, July 13, 2003 | Mark Oliva

Posted on 07/13/2003 2:53:59 PM PDT by demlosers

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To: tortoise
You're absolutely correct!
51 posted on 07/13/2003 5:37:16 PM PDT by Gary Boldwater
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To: Shooter 2.5
"They showed firing pin marks on the primers, neglecting to say that the non-existant problem started in 1936."

Usually this is caused by the rifle being designed with no return spring on the firing pin. The casual movement of the pin is often enough to make a small dent in the primer, but nowhere near strong enough to fire the primer.

I like the idea of an M14 or two in a squad.
52 posted on 07/13/2003 5:37:58 PM PDT by OldEagle (Haven't been wrong since 1947.)
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To: demlosers
Why do we have weapons that leave dents in the primer of unfired rounds?

Don't they know that's a bad thing?

53 posted on 07/13/2003 5:43:13 PM PDT by Jhoffa_ (BREAKING: Supreme Court Finds Right to Sodomy, Sammy & Frodo elated.)
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To: OldEagle
Those firing pin marks scared me when I first saw them so I bought some Mil Spec primers.

Ten years later, I still haven't used them after getting used to the marks.

I found that Winchesters are pretty good and I use them for everything.

A friend e mailed me and asked for my pet M1A load. It's AA2520 with 168 grain Sierra MatchKings, Remington Brass and Winchester Primers. Sorry, I don't post powder charges.
54 posted on 07/13/2003 5:46:12 PM PDT by Shooter 2.5 (Don't punch holes in the lifeboat)
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To: bandleader
"Standard load for the .45ACP is a 230-grain bullet and about 10grs of Unique(what I use)."

Sounds a wee bit hot to me. I'm told that the military load is 6 grains of Unique. I used to use 7.5 grains of Unique and really shortened the life of the recoil springs of my 1911. The brass would eject straight up instead of out to the side with that load.

55 posted on 07/13/2003 5:46:13 PM PDT by nightdriver
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To: Prodigal Son
Barrel length has no effect on intrinsic accuracy. The only benefit of a longer barrel is a longer sight radius with iron sights. Actually that's not entirely true, you also get reduced wind drift and bullet drop from higher velocity - but going from a M16A2 to a M4, it's not enough to matter.

That's probably the problem - M4 iron sights are no good at a distance.

56 posted on 07/13/2003 5:48:16 PM PDT by CGTRWK
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To: OldEagle
I like the idea of an M14 or two in a squad.

It's a bad idea logistically. Much better to just configure an M16 for longer range use; the military .223 has about the same effective range as a military .308 out of a given barrel length, but the rifles they are using aren't configured for it. With a different selection of ammunition, a 20" barrel will keep .223 accurate and supersonic past 1000 yards.

I'd say forget the M14 -- too expensive -- and just put a suitable optic on some 20" M16 upper. That will give you all the accuracy and lethality you need out past 800 meters or so, and with minimal logistical overhead or cost.

57 posted on 07/13/2003 5:49:28 PM PDT by tortoise (All these moments lost in time, like tears in the rain.)
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To: Armedanddangerous
The 9mm round is very popular with Eurofags. What we have to understand is the basic difference in the role of handguns for Americans. Americans consider the handgun a defensive tool against armed adversaries. The Europeans have traditionally used handguns to execute unarmed prisoners and civilians. For them a .22 would work.
58 posted on 07/13/2003 5:52:07 PM PDT by Comus
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To: CGTRWK
So I'm going to get the same accuracy out of a 4 inch barrel as a 40 inch one? Maybe. I think I'd take the longer barrel myself if I wanted to shoot far.
59 posted on 07/13/2003 5:56:47 PM PDT by Prodigal Son
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To: tortoise
Marines have a 'deticated marksman' or two per platoon, I believe.

The use recycled Army M14 sniper rifles -rebarrled- and some high end optics, cost effective firepower.....
60 posted on 07/13/2003 6:06:12 PM PDT by ASOC (pistol is good, shotgun is better, but you just cant beat a ground radio/B52 combo sandwich)
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To: tortoise
You may very well be correct. Bad logistically and expensive?? We already have the M14's and the ammo isn't hard to find, but you still might be right. I sure don't know.
61 posted on 07/13/2003 6:10:34 PM PDT by OldEagle (Haven't been wrong since 1947.)
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To: Prodigal Son
Yep, clamp both of them down in a machine rest to take the shooter out of the picture and in all likelyhood they'd shoot the same.

Interesting and somewhat relevant link here: http://www.accuratereloading.com/223sb.html

62 posted on 07/13/2003 6:20:34 PM PDT by CGTRWK
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To: tortoise
***If shooting ability for a given cartridge size was a measure of manhood, my 110-lb girlfriend must have a johnson that drags on the ground.***

Why would anyone want to drag a 30-06 Johnson WWII rifle on the ground? Does not it have a shoulder strap?
63 posted on 07/13/2003 6:25:15 PM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar (When someone burns a cross on your lawn the best firehose is an AK-47.)
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To: CGTRWK
Yep, clamp both of them down in a machine rest

Ok, that's just what I need in a combat weapon- a big clamp and worktable to clamp it to. I say that playfully, but that's the whole point. These guys are in combat- not a turkey shooting contest. Their weapons have to serve them in a wide variety of situations. YOu can't go clamping your personal weapon down to a tripod every time. One reason the 50 is deadly out to 1800+ meters is because of that tripod and T and E mechanism. But the 50 is a crew served weapon and weighs a ton (figuratively). A tripod for a personal weapon like the M16 makes it useless.

64 posted on 07/13/2003 6:25:44 PM PDT by Prodigal Son
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To: nightdriver
I use something called dri-lube. No problem with sand. I knew 20 years ago not to over lube in a desert or freezing weather.

Today I was at the range shooting a 1903-A3 and a Remington 1917 Enfield. Both in 30-06. No problem on knockdown or long-range power. THe 1903-A3 has the prettiest trigger pull. You pull back until it catches. Any increase in trigger force will cause the gun to fire. It is like this every time. I just wish it had a 1903-A1 rear sight instead of the 1903-A3.

65 posted on 07/13/2003 6:37:43 PM PDT by american_ranger
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To: Prodigal Son
Entirely right, of course. And you've tangentially summed up the problem with the M4 pretty well - combat weapons do have to serve in a wide variety of situations, and the short and handy M4 with its foot and a smidge sight radius is every bit as useless as long range as your M16 on a tripod would be for going house to house.

I remain convinced that short barrel and all, putting a scope on the M4 would go most of the way towards matching the M16 at a distance.

66 posted on 07/13/2003 7:05:42 PM PDT by CGTRWK
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To: Centurion2000
You are shooting .45 Long Colt.That is a revolver round!The standard for .45ColtACP is a 230-grain bullet!!Same caliber,Different delivery system!!!
67 posted on 07/13/2003 7:31:24 PM PDT by bandleader
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To: x1stcav
500+ meters is 7.62 country. Should have broken out the M14's in storage if there are any left.

Sure, but still, an M16-a1 was good enough for us 25 years ago, too, though, the A2 should be good for 600 yards, there should have been more long barreled rifles around, that's all, no need to carry 2 different types of ammo for the rifles in the squad.

68 posted on 07/13/2003 7:48:59 PM PDT by RaceBannon
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To: dts32041
M1911A1 is no longer made, the M1991A1 is, and there are magazines that carry 8 rounds or more for it, too.

Colt would LOVE the business!(they laid me off 4 years ago...sigh)
69 posted on 07/13/2003 7:50:39 PM PDT by RaceBannon
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To: nightdriver
This isn't a new problem. In Vietnam the troops had to buy drikote for themselves.
70 posted on 07/13/2003 7:51:53 PM PDT by mark_interrupted
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To: american_ranger
Why do you want the shorter sight radius?

Do you like the ladder sight better?
71 posted on 07/13/2003 8:05:02 PM PDT by Shooter 2.5 (Don't punch holes in the lifeboat)
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To: demlosers
OK,This is ABSOLUTELY my last word on this subject!I load 9mm with 115grain bullets and 5grs.of Unique!I load .45ACP with 230grain bullets and 6.5-7grs.of Unique!!Can we all agree about something?That is that the 1911 Colt is far superior to the 9mm Beretta??As I said before,you can't get 10grs.of Unique into a .45ACP case!!!!!!!Enough,Already!!!!!!!!!
72 posted on 07/13/2003 8:05:23 PM PDT by bandleader
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To: RaceBannon
"M1911A1 is no longer made"


The "1911" has become more of a style rather than a specific
gun. I call my Kimber, Springfield and Colt all 1911's.
73 posted on 07/13/2003 8:06:02 PM PDT by gc4nra (this tag line protected by Kimber and the First Amendment)
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To: bandleader; Squantos
Do you really load 10 gr of Unique with 230 gr FMJ?
74 posted on 07/13/2003 8:07:44 PM PDT by TEXASPROUD
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To: mark_interrupted
Dri-coat works great on my tablesaw- I guess now I'll have to buy another can.
75 posted on 07/13/2003 8:15:59 PM PDT by CalvaryJohn
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To: RaceBannon
Yeah, I keep disregarding the logistics thing.

I don't know if it was you, but somebody else on this thread had the better idea: a long-barreled upper for the M16A2 for a longer sight radius with iron sights, or with some sort of optics. Should work.
76 posted on 07/13/2003 8:16:50 PM PDT by x1stcav ( HOOAHH!)
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To: marktwain
The Browning High Power is an excellent weapon! :-) I also hear that a guy named Glock has made some ultra reliable pistols that are favored by police in the U.S.

That's what I get for being purposely vague! ;)

Allow soldiers to buy their own personal sidearms, as long as it is of an approved caliber. The soldier will then have more confidence in their arm, and will be more likely to be proficient with it.

Interesting idea. It would complicate the armorer's life though.

77 posted on 07/13/2003 8:16:59 PM PDT by pa_dweller (This space left blank intentionally)
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To: 300winmag
Wanna bet there was no money in the budget for replacement mags during the klinton regime,

I didn't see a new M-9 mag in the FMF fer my last 10 years... only the shooting teams and the boys at the weapons lab had any new gear... M-9 is junk... why do you think the MEUs issue modified 1911s?...

78 posted on 07/13/2003 8:20:52 PM PDT by g'nad
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To: demlosers
Having"messed up"so badly with my previous replies,I will attempt to vindicate myself!I have used Hoppes #9 and standard lubricants to clean my firearms since boyhood.A friend(Marine)recently turned me on to"Tetra Gun".You have to put a mask on when using the solvent(or cotton wool in your nose),but this stuff is GREAT!It is a Fluoropolymer base that really does the job.After you have used it a few times,clean=ups are much easier(especially with fouling propellants like Unique"!!The armed forces should try this stuff!!!!!
79 posted on 07/13/2003 8:23:31 PM PDT by bandleader
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To: TEXASPROUD
The answer to that is one post 72 which is no, he doesn't.


Does anyone want to volunteer to tell him there isn't such a thing as a Long Colt? LOL.

Are you going to the shoot at New Braunfels? I'm thinking about bringing my semi-auto-revolver.
80 posted on 07/13/2003 8:24:49 PM PDT by Shooter 2.5 (Don't punch holes in the lifeboat)
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To: Prodigal Son
The barrel for the 50 is almost 4 feet long. This accounts for most of this accuracy.

Would it be feasible whatever the barrel length of military rifles to put threads on the end of the barrel allowing for an extension barrel to be put on for longer distances? Obviously you would want some kind of thread quard.
81 posted on 07/13/2003 8:25:44 PM PDT by jwh_Denver (When the world thinks the United States is right, we've got to change directions.)
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To: jonascord
I've heard rumors that, rather than sell them thru the DCM, the plan is to scrap the M-14's

The M14 can't legally be sold to the public because it has a selective fire receiver. Now, a 7.62mm rifle is useless in full-auto fire, but that's the law -- no auto weapons for the general public since 1986.

3rd World countries don't want M14s. They're poor, not foolish. The FAL is a better weapon in the M14 class, as is the G3, and armies today want a more compact weapon anyway, which sends them to M16s if they are close to the USA and AKs if they aren't (AKs are dirt cheap. 40 million built, and Chinese slave labour is working three shifts making more. Supply has crushed demand...).

A friend of mine carried an M14 in Afghanistan. Specifically, because of its range. In his hands, it was very effective from one side of the valley to another, where the M4 was basically out of accuracy beyond 500 yards. I liked the M4A1. (I think the rails system needs work, though). One of the few pictures I have of me from there, I'm holding his M14, which is kind of funny because I think it's the only time I picked it up!

The 77 grain bullet mentioned was developed by Black Hills for the ill fated (ill-conceived) SPR. From the M4 it is more effective than the horrible M855 greentip round, which overpenetrates humans and other animals. The Marines wanted to penetrate a steel helmet at 800 yards, which is why that round is the way it is.

Many of the problems with reliability are due to crappy, lowest-bidder, minority-set-aside-contractor magazines. Most of us have hoarded old mags.

When I first learnt to clear buildings, it was done with pistols. Nowadays it is done with rifles... much more effectively. While the M4 is very short, the M16 is only 39 inches (1 metre) long. I can't imagine anyone downing an M16 to clear buildings with an AK-47... the 16 points a lot more naturally. And yeah, I've fired a lot of rounds through both of them.

I suspect the guys carrying AKs were just trying to look, what's the Marine term, "salty?" In the Army we'd say, "Hollywood!"

A 9mm pistol will disable a motivated man with any hit that a .45 will. And will fail to disable him with any other hit. Bullet placement is the alpha and the omega (hopefully, the omega for the other guy). I like the idea that somebody had, about making handguns a private purchase item (some police departments do this already). Unfortunately, the Army is overrun with Clintonistas. They are especially prevalent in the MP Branch and Army policy enforces a gun ban regime that would do Adolf himself proud.

I do think that John Browning was an almost supernatural designer. His M2HB still rocks. The .45 is a very fine weapon (that's what I was clearing buildings with, Back In The Day) but the M9 is also an excellent weapon. With decent mags it's 100% dependable. Unfortunately, it had to follow Browning's .45. Like, who remembers who was the second guy on the Moon, the pope who came after Saint Peter, or the first Vice-President of the United States?

d.o.l.

Criminal Number 18F

82 posted on 07/13/2003 8:32:25 PM PDT by Criminal Number 18F
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To: jwh_Denver
What would be the purpose? Just mount a scope and you're good.

If you're trying for an extention of the true barrel, you would have to line up the rifling absolutely perfect or things would get very messy.

If you're thinking about a longer sight radius, blooper tubes have been used to extend the iron sight radius in competitions. The trouble starts when the harmonics start to change and the groups open up.
83 posted on 07/13/2003 8:32:40 PM PDT by Shooter 2.5 (Don't punch holes in the lifeboat)
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To: Buzzcook
In Anaconda, the 10th Mountain kids were plinking Hadji at 500m every time he exposed himself... the M4 system (thanks to the scope) outranges the M16A2 by about 200m, practically speaking.

Some of the SF teams had M14s (2 per team). Most of them never left camp. For ranges a rifle doesn't reach, you have the M240G and mortars. Mortars are God's own infantry weapon...

d.o.l.

Criminal Number 18F
84 posted on 07/13/2003 8:35:27 PM PDT by Criminal Number 18F
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To: Prodigal Son
Sounds like you were trained by the Marines?

d.o.l. -C18F
85 posted on 07/13/2003 8:37:01 PM PDT by Criminal Number 18F
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To: Criminal Number 18F
Just speaking from my own experience, I'll take the M14 over the M16, and the .45 over the 9mm. The only advantage I found in the 16 is that it's easier to carry. I always wondered why the U.S. military didn't put the M14 mechanism into an M16 style body. In every respect besides weight/weildiness, I found the 14 to be superior.
Likewise, I have never been able to see a decent reason for the switch to the 9mm. Not one.
86 posted on 07/13/2003 8:39:49 PM PDT by squidly
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To: TEXASPROUD
LMAO..........No..........unless yer babysitting the kids and reloading and double a pretty much 5 or 6 grain standard load of Unique from Aliant Powder .........that hot load will eaker ya fer sure in a 45 ACP fired from a 1911 or a clone. 10 grains in a 45 colt maybe for a Ruger Blackhawk or a Thompson Contender maybe......hot at about 1100 FPS. A hunting load to work up carefully IMO and experience.

Stay Safe !

87 posted on 07/13/2003 8:42:45 PM PDT by Squantos (Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt.)
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To: Shooter 2.5
What would be the purpose? Just mount a scope and you're good.

I'm no expert for sure on ballistics or warfare. I do know that ballistics have been known for decades and decades. If you want a gun that will do such and such it can be made with no problem. But no gun will be great in every situation. Take the .223, with a scope it will extend the users accuracy but not extend the bullets accurate range. The longer barrel would. (Correct me if I'm wrong).

My thinking was that the extension would be exactly lined up rifling wise when put on with marks on both pieces to insure that. Or some other way I haven't a clue about.

88 posted on 07/13/2003 8:53:07 PM PDT by jwh_Denver (When the world thinks the United States is right, we've got to change directions.)
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To: squidly
I always wondered why the U.S. military didn't put the M14 mechanism into an M16 style body.

You either decribed a .308 AR-10 or a .223 Mini-14.

Before anyone starts, the Mini-14 has the gas system of a M-1 Carbine and is notoriously inaccurate after the barrel heats up. After two years of experimenting with a Mini, the fault lies in the horribly manufactured barrels. It's even possible to bypass the gas system and the results are the same. It's an overpriced plinker.

89 posted on 07/13/2003 8:54:20 PM PDT by Shooter 2.5 (Don't punch holes in the lifeboat)
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To: Mr Rogers
Congratulations to your daughter, and to you for raising a fine American.

Gents, this is what I mean when I say the Marines know what they are doing with marksmanship. The Army comparatively has it's head up it's fourth point of contact. If the Army REMFs from that ambush had had the training Mr Rogers's daughter got, it might have been Iraqis who had to bury their sons and daughters.

The Marines understand that their REMFs might have to fight, and they prepare them. The Army tells theirs that, hey, this is just a neat way to get some college money, you just have to dress funny for a while.

I see a lot of people posting here who are quick to assume that the guys at the shooting range know what's what, and the guys making weapons decisions in the military don't.

I'd like to remind all of ya, that the people in the military who evaluate weapons have usually got experience applying them.

Can the weapons we have be improved? Sure. Will some of those improvements come from research in the civilian shooting community? You betcha. But shooting people professionaly requires some different gear (and allows some different possibilities) than shooting on any kind of range. I don't know any infantry officer who would, given the problem of an enemy-occupied building in the open 500m away, engage the same with rifle fire. You have a whole bunch of other magic in your wand for a situation like that.

Finally... OK, some mechanics and truck drivers say their rifles, which they hadn't cleaned in a freakin' geological period, jammed. Uh-huh. These are the same rifles that the Rangers used in Somalia in 1993. Why did the mechanics' rifles jam, and the Rangers' rifles didn't? Hint: the rifles are not the variable in this equation.

d.o.l.

Criminal Number 18F
90 posted on 07/13/2003 8:56:39 PM PDT by Criminal Number 18F
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To: jwh_Denver
Longer barrels only aid in velocity which is miniscule and sight radius with iron sights.

The .223 already has a velocity of 2700 feet per second.

You wouldn't gain a thing with a clumsy attachment.
91 posted on 07/13/2003 8:58:04 PM PDT by Shooter 2.5 (Don't punch holes in the lifeboat)
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To: Jonez712
Bring back the BAR-1918!!

Actually, we did, just improved (grin). The FN-MAG machine gun was created by Dieudonne Saive by flipping a BAR lock mechanism upside down, so that a belt feed on the top was possible.

The Army rejected the MAG because it was "Not Invented Here," but finally, thanks to the tankers(!), saw the light, and the M240B/M240G is an Americanised FN-MAG.

But you can think of it as a belt fed BAR (grin)

d.o.l.

Criminal Number 18F

92 posted on 07/13/2003 9:01:39 PM PDT by Criminal Number 18F
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To: bandleader
".45ACP is a 230-grain bullet and about 10grs of Unique"

WHAT??? Are you STUPID???

SAAMI Spec is for a 230gr 45 ACP using Unique is a max of 6.5 grains, NOT 10 grains!

Children, using the previously mentioned loads by bandleader for the 45 ACP may kill or injure you!

Your firearm may blow up in your face!

Loading a 9mm using a 115 grain bullet is a max of 6.1 grains.

93 posted on 07/13/2003 9:12:38 PM PDT by PatrioticAmerican (Helping Mexicans invade America is TREASON!)
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To: Shooter 2.5
Thanks. Sometimes my ideas are great, they just don't work. LOL!
94 posted on 07/13/2003 9:15:09 PM PDT by jwh_Denver (When the world thinks the United States is right, we've got to change directions.)
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To: g'nad
why do you think the MEUs issue modified 1911s?...

Because they know the same thing that most police departments have learned, and SOF has known all along. A 9mm needs to be a hot round, with a very expanding bullet design, to be an effective stopper. Unfortunately, the Hague Conventions say FMJ-only. That puts the "legal" 9mm back into the pipsqueak category.

If you MUST use FMJ ammo, the .45 is the only way to fly. It gives the stopping power needed, while still conforming to international conventions. A bit of digging around will show that elite units of almost all Western countries have a .45 handgun of some design or other for troops that are serious about killing with a handgun.

95 posted on 07/13/2003 9:17:17 PM PDT by 300winmag (All that is gold does not glitter.)
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To: Blueflag
The SAW weighs more like 16 pounds empty. 22 is including 6 lbs of ammo; close to what the general-purpose MG (formerly M60, now M240) weighs empty, but the 7.62mm ammo is a LOT heavier. Twice as heavy, in fact. In practical terms this means a soldier or combat unit has half as much ammo with .30 calibre weapons.

Some SAW links

http://www.armystudyguide.com/m249/studyguide.htm

http://ppt.armystudyguide.com/weapons/5.htm

http://remtek.com/arms/fn/minimi/

(the second link is an excellent Peter Kokalis [I think] article that tells the history of US squad auto weapon development, back to the BAR). One error, the M249 is not reliable with M16 magazines and we've given up using it that way.

Any machine gun is rated as having a greater effective range than a rifle of the same calibre. This has to do with the way MGs are employed versus the way rifles are. You can definitely keep people's heads down, or tear up a group of them, with a .50 MG at ranges that would render a Barrett useless, for example. With the Barrett you are trying to get a message to an individual, with an MG you are sending a lot of mail to "occupant"!

d.o.l.

Criminal Number 18F
96 posted on 07/13/2003 9:22:21 PM PDT by Criminal Number 18F
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To: Prodigal Son
"...soldiers needed to assault a building that may be 500+ meters distant across open terrain. They did not feel the M-4 provided effective fire at that range."

No kidding. Now just htf do you "assault" a building at 500 meters? Geesh. 500m = M-60, M-2 or artillery.

97 posted on 07/13/2003 9:22:41 PM PDT by Justa
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To: nightdriver
Sounds a wee bit hot to me.

Ayuh. Bearing in mind that most of the "1911s" in stores now are cheesy chinese cast receivers and slides... that load should probably require registration as a Destructive Device.

d.o.l.

Criminal Number 18F

98 posted on 07/13/2003 9:27:01 PM PDT by Criminal Number 18F
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To: american_ranger
"...You pull back until it catches. Any increase in trigger force will cause the gun to fire. It is like this every time. I just wish it had a 1903-A1 rear sight instead of the 1903-A3."

I always rather liked the military trigger too, it seemed like it would never fire unless you really wanted it to.

The regular 1903 Springfield rear sight fastened to a pinned sleeve on the barrel, not on the rear of the receiver like the A3 model. The A3 therefore had a longer sighting plane. It was my preference.

99 posted on 07/13/2003 9:29:11 PM PDT by nightdriver
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To: CGTRWK
I remain convinced that short barrel and all, putting a scope on the M4 would go most of the way towards matching the M16 at a distance.

Miles ahead of you. Special Ops units mostly put a Trijicon 4X ACOG on their weapons, as do an increasing number of just-plain-infantry folks. Check the photos. The Trijicon has a tritium-illuminated reticle. It's a good solid scope which can take an incredible beating (I know. I gave it one) and hold zero. It's very lightweight, too. Of course, the M4, M4A1, and M16A4 can all accept any rail-mounting scope, but the ACOG is issue.

And yes, you can hit men at 500 yards with an M4A1 and ACOG.

For CQB the EoTech holographic sight is popular.

d.o.l.

Criminal Number 18F

100 posted on 07/13/2003 9:35:05 PM PDT by Criminal Number 18F
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