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Court Rejects Davidian Claim Against U.S.
Apukes ^ | 7-16-03 | ALAN SAYRE

Posted on 07/16/2003 10:01:25 AM PDT by Dan from Michigan

Court Rejects Davidian Claim Against U.S.
Tue Jul 15, 9:52 AM ET Add U.S. National - AP to My Yahoo!

By ALAN SAYRE, Associated Press Writer

NEW ORLEANS - A federal appeals court rejected an attempt by survivors to collect damages from the government for the deadly 1993 confrontation outside Waco, Texas, between federal agents and members of the Branch Davidian cult.

Without dissent, a three-judge panel of the 5th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals (news - web sites) late Monday turned aside contentions that a lower court judge who ruled against the survivors was biased.

Scores of Branch Davidian members, including leader David Koresh, were killed in 1993 when government agents stormed their compound after a weekslong standoff. Survivors have been pursuing a wrongful death claim for years.

In September 2000 in Waco, U.S. District Judge Walter Smith rejected their lawsuit, backing the government contention that agents did not use excessive force in their tear gas assault on the compound. Smith found the Davidians themselves set the fire that killed nearly 80 men, women and children.

The appeal before the 5th Circuit basically dealt with one question: Was Smith biased against the Davidians because of remarks he made during the trial and his past relationships with government attorneys?

"We conclude that appellants' allegations do not reflect conduct that would cause a reasonable observer to question Judge Smith's impartiality," Chief 5th Circuit Judge Edith Jones wrote for the panel.

Attorneys for the survivors did not immediate return calls seeking comment Tuesday morning.

The Davidians had argued that Smith's comments on and off the bench showed "deep-seated antagonism" and "preconceptions" about the group, whose beliefs encompassed fierce hostility toward the government.

As an example, the survivors said Smith had called one Branch Davidian follower "crazy" and a murderer.

But government attorneys said Smith "displayed patience and diligence wading through enormously complicated legal and factual claims."

On Feb. 28, 1993, federal agents stormed the Branch Davidian compound looking for stockpiled automatic weapons and hand grenades. Four federal agents and three Davidians were killed in the clash.

For 51 days, the government attempted to get cult followers to leave the compound. On April 19, agents fired tear gas rounds into the compound and fire destroyed it.


TOPICS: Breaking News; Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: butcher; davidians; jbts; klinton; reno; waco

1 posted on 07/16/2003 10:01:25 AM PDT by Dan from Michigan
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To: Dan from Michigan
There never will be any justice here, except in the backlass from certain circles that they will reap for decades to come. We should all accept that.

Bottom line is that whatever you may think of the Davidians in general or Koresh in particular, these were a bunch of men, women and children who were minding their own business who in a short time, nearly all of whom wound up dead.

In an age where organizations lose lawsuits for serving hot coffee, not one single person has been held accountable at any time.

With every injustice the backlash will swell, as it should.

2 posted on 07/16/2003 10:14:17 AM PDT by AAABEST
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To: AAABEST
Agree 100%

Especially since they could have nabbed Koresh while jogging.

3 posted on 07/16/2003 10:19:51 AM PDT by Dan from Michigan ("Say hello to my little friend!" - Tony Montana)
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To: AAABEST
There were so many ways this could have been handled differently from the beginning to the end. The negotiator was upset with his own people. Every time he'd begin to build rapore with Koresh, the person in charge would escalate the activity outside the home. They basicly defeated his attempts to end the crisis peacefully.

This was a dark stain on the fabric of our nation.
4 posted on 07/16/2003 10:21:42 AM PDT by DoughtyOne
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To: Dan from Michigan
Smith found the Davidians themselves set the fire

It's becoming more and more common for crazy anti Gov. loonys to set there homes a blaze when confronted with the peacefull, legitamate requests of law enforcment.

I better make sure I have plenty of matches ....
5 posted on 07/16/2003 10:22:01 AM PDT by THEUPMAN (#### comment deleted by moderator)
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To: DoughtyOne
A "Dark Stain" indeed.
The Fed's will never admit to any actual wrong doing on the part of any government agency.
They cover their butt's with the old Clinton stand by.
Mistakes were made.
6 posted on 07/16/2003 10:38:01 AM PDT by Pompah
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To: Pompah

7 posted on 07/16/2003 11:04:33 AM PDT by HaveGunWillTravel
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To: AAABEST


8 posted on 07/16/2003 11:06:08 AM PDT by HaveGunWillTravel
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To: Dan from Michigan; AAABEST; HaveGunWillTravel

9 posted on 07/16/2003 11:42:59 AM PDT by agitator (Ok, mic check...line one...)
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To: DoughtyOne
The negotiator was upset with his own people. Every time he'd begin to build rapore with Koresh, the person in charge would escalate the activity outside the home.

Very sad case.

So many children gassed and burned to death.

There must be a better way to apprehend a guy while shopping at the local store or jogging the outside trails.

10 posted on 07/16/2003 11:43:19 AM PDT by george wythe
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To: agitator
Isn't that great. Har...
11 posted on 07/16/2003 11:51:10 AM PDT by DoughtyOne
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To: Dan from Michigan
The suvivors should have waited 20 years before trying to collect damages from the government. By then most of the people that would be embarrassed by this would be out of government and no judge would refuse their right to sue. Since they could not wait they will never be able to collect.
12 posted on 07/16/2003 11:53:34 AM PDT by Between the Lines
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To: george wythe
Koresh jogged something like three days a week. His trail took him down a dirt country road right by a farm house that was being used as an observation post about three quarters of a mile away from the Davidian farm. He jogged alone.

Has anyone heard the term "cut off the head"? Hello!!!

Koresh had a cordial relationship with the local sheriff, his neighbors and townfolk. He had never made threats to any of them. He cooperated with the local social services people when they came out to investigate complaints.

The article mentions that the Davidians hated the government. I don't think that's an accurate statement. I believe they were leary of the government. Koresh didn't preach a takeover of the government. He was just paranoid about the government.
13 posted on 07/16/2003 11:57:20 AM PDT by DoughtyOne
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To: agitator
It's SHOWTIME!

I heard it was going to happen on the news that morning.
14 posted on 07/16/2003 12:00:56 PM PDT by carenot
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To: Dan from Michigan; AAABEST
To: AAABEST
Agree 100%
Especially since they could have nabbed Koresh while jogging.

*********************

Especially too, since Koresh and his christian followers didn't have any illegal weapons, hadn't broken any laws, and had not abused any children.

It was pre-meditated murder, for no reason other than to publicize the "goodness" of the ATF, who were worried about losing some of their funding.

15 posted on 07/16/2003 12:08:11 PM PDT by exodus
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To: DoughtyOne
There were so many ways this could have been handled differently from the beginning to the end. The negotiator was upset with his own people. Every time he'd begin to build rapore with Koresh, the person in charge would escalate the activity outside the home. They basicly defeated his attempts to end the crisis peacefully
*********************

You're willing to believe that one of the people who participated in a mass-murder was really a good guy who failed in his attempt to defuse the Waco situation. I'm not able to believe that.

Combined with our highly professional lawmen "mooning" the Davidian family, killing the family dogs, playing dying rabbit screams, loud music, helicopter overflights, armored vehicles circling the home, strobe lights, and shooting into the house, having a negotiator break his word to Koresh fits easily into a plan to drive the "crazy" Davidians into losing control and doing something stupid, in order to justify, on film, having been attacked by our government in the first place.

It was a campaign to make the Davidians believe that they had nothing to lose, that they were all going to die. It was a strategy of intimidation, and the "good" negotiator was just as guilty as the rest of our heroic law enforcement men, all of whom participated in the mass murder of innocent American citizens.

And got away with it.

16 posted on 07/16/2003 12:33:49 PM PDT by exodus
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To: agitator
Janet Reno is evil, I believe that; however, she was just following orders.

Reno is a flunky, with a true flunky's heart. There's no way she did this without permission.

17 posted on 07/16/2003 12:38:16 PM PDT by exodus
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To: exodus
In one of the Waco movies the negotiator is depicted as being quite ticked off at the person in charge. At one point he had achieved a concession by Koresh, which he felt signified progress, but that very night the all night music and spotlights were implemented. He made it very clear that he didn't not concur with management's actions and basicly minced no words.

I've got to admit, you and I share the same basic frame of reference with this though.

About five years ago my wife and I were asked out to dinner by a physician friend. Joining us that evening was supposed to be his wife, a nurse and her FBI agent husband.

During our dinner conversation it surfaced that this guy had been at Waco. He was a rapid response team member. This guy was very tight lipped. I'm sure he'd have rather this not come up.

I don't remember exactly how our conversation progressed now, but at one point I was asked my thoughts on Waco. After a moment I said, "People don't generally think of our nation in these terms, but our nation is not immune from the dangers that afflict other nations. The thing that concerns me, is that even in the United States we need to be vigilant against government abusing the rights of our people."

I don't think there is any doubt that at least two people at that table knew exactly what was on my mind.

18 posted on 07/16/2003 1:35:30 PM PDT by DoughtyOne
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To: exodus
It was pre-meditated murder, for no reason other than to publicize the "goodness" of the ATF, who were worried about losing some of their funding.

Wait...wasn't the Clinton administration also on their "hate speech" and "anti-government militia" campaigns to prepare the public for the restrictive laws waiting to be passed?

19 posted on 07/16/2003 2:45:33 PM PDT by SoulStorms (That which grows in shadow, and withers in the light of day, does not belong on the vine.)
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To: DoughtyOne
In one of the Waco movies the negotiator is depicted as being quite ticked off at the person in charge. At one point he had achieved a concession by Koresh, which he felt signified progress, but that very night the all night music and spotlights were implemented. He made it very clear that he didn't not concur with management's actions and basicly minced no words.
*********************

The movies are fun at times, but propaganda movies are a sign of government tyranny.

This "ticked-off" negotiator participated in an action he could plainly see leading to the death of Koresh and his family, even if he didn't have advance knowledge that the Davidians were slated for death. After the killings, the negotiator's only complaint was in "procedural" differences between departments.

The negotiator didn't testify in support of the Davidians in court, and I don't believe that anyone who was there thought the Davidians were guilty of the crimes that they were accused of.

I also don't believe that anyone with experience (or reasoning ability) would believe that four attackers were killed in the first few minutes of a frontal assault, each being shot in the left temple by the exact same caliper weapon, in the middle of a furious firefight. Those four law enforcement men were executed by some of their companions, not shot by Davidians defending their home.

For the sceptics among you lurkers, remember that each one of those four dead officers had recently served on the exact same Presidential detail as bodyguards for President Bill Clinton, who is famous for having well-publicized murders, suicides, and accidents linked to his name.

The Davidians didn't kill anyone, not even in self-defence. I'm not saying the Davidians didn't try, but they did not kill any of their attackers.

20 posted on 07/16/2003 2:45:35 PM PDT by exodus
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To: SoulStorms
exodus - It was pre-meditated murder, for no reason other than to publicize the "goodness" of the ATF, who were worried about losing some of their funding.
SoulStorms - Wait...wasn't the Clinton administration also on their "hate speech" and "anti-government militia" campaigns to prepare the public for the restrictive laws waiting to be passed?

*********************

I wouldn't doubt that being part of the plan, but the "hate speach" and "anti-government militia" accusations didn't get into gear until a year later, when the Murry Federal Building was destroyed in Oklahoma City.

The Oklahoma bombing marked the surrender of the Republican Party. After Bill Clinton's "hate speach" accusations, Republican "leaders" abandoned the Contract with America, and gave Bill Clinton anything he asked for.

21 posted on 07/16/2003 2:57:13 PM PDT by exodus
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To: exodus
The Oklahoma bombing marked the surrender of the Republican Party. After Bill Clinton's "hate speach" accusations, Republican "leaders" abandoned the Contract with America, and gave Bill Clinton anything he asked for.

Well, it was that or get the IRS sicced upon you or you would die a mysterious but controversial death.

22 posted on 07/16/2003 3:06:02 PM PDT by Houmatt (And if she asks you why you can tell her that I told you that I long, for sulfur in the air.........)
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To: HaveGunWillTravel
Your cartoon strip is great.
23 posted on 07/16/2003 4:09:18 PM PDT by DoughtyOne
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To: Dan from Michigan
It was Waco that opened up my eyes as to what sort of creature WJC was. I saw him make some assertions that I questioned and sort of muscle the reporters who didn't know much about what was going on in TX. It was shameless. Clinton at his best in other words.
24 posted on 07/16/2003 6:04:42 PM PDT by thegreatbeast (Quid lucrum istic mihi est?)
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To: DoughtyOne
Thanks. It's not mine, though. It's by a freeper named pjcomix.
25 posted on 07/16/2003 6:49:59 PM PDT by HaveGunWillTravel
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To: Dan from Michigan; Alamo-Girl; Yellow Rose of Texas
Another sad day.
26 posted on 07/16/2003 7:41:14 PM PDT by amom
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To: amom
Indeed. Thanks for the heads up!
27 posted on 07/16/2003 7:58:12 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: HaveGunWillTravel
Well it was great. Thanks for the info and post.
28 posted on 07/16/2003 10:03:30 PM PDT by DoughtyOne
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To: AAABEST
a Day will come with justice in tow.
29 posted on 07/17/2003 1:12:26 AM PDT by King Prout (people hear and do not listen, see and do not observe, speak without thought, post and not edit)
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To: Dan from Michigan
I will never forget Waco. It was on that day that the America I had believed in since childhood died.
30 posted on 07/17/2003 6:01:12 AM PDT by Ronin (Qui tacet consentit!)
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To: Pompah
They cover their butt's with the old Clinton stand by. "Mistakes were made."
I'll probably get flamed for this but I believe that the "mistakes were made" comment was by former President Ronald Reagan regarding the Iran Conra affair.
31 posted on 07/17/2003 9:31:35 AM PDT by Moleman
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