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Hoosier Hysteria

Posted on 07/20/2003 7:46:47 PM PDT by Arrowhead

For those of you who read more than your local paper, the Indianapolis Star and our own county seat paper, the Anderson Herald, is full of reports of angry taxpayers. There was one editorial in the Star when a citizen had drawn a correlation between the double and triple property levy on residents because of the abusive practice of city and council governments giving abatements to corporations.

I have long held the same correlation and have even been to my city council meetings complaining about this very issue for the last year. If any of you attend your council meetings, you will find that virtually most companies are playing one community against the other selling the idea that for them (the companies) to remain on a competitive edge, they must have these abatements because of other communities offering the same deal. Also, they use crafty language to imply the threat of packing up their operations and moving to a community that WILL cater to their extortionist practices. Right here at home, our council do not even know the costs to the city when saying yes.

Two weeks ago, I attend our council meeting when a company here in town ask for another abatement. The council started to motion to accept the "findings of the facts" (what a joke because they did not even assert what those facts were) and vote on the measure. They all had their minds made up before the motion. Anyway, the motion was going forward and the issue had not even been open to the floor of the public to question or comment. I interjected and said, "Hey!! Are you going to open this issue on the floor for the public to question or comment?!" (I was angry to say the least). The Mayor recognized me and I asked the council if they knew what the cost to the city is for giving the abatement. The MAYOR reacts with the answer, "There is no cost to the city." I said, "WHAT????!!!!" Then, The MAYOR, clearly pissed, not the council President, covered the mic, put his head down, mumbled something, then raised his head and said, "No. We do not know how much."

Now, I wonder...if the mayor does not know, then does it stand to reason that the council does not know? And as it turned out, they did not. I even asked the salesmen from the company. They did not know either. Moreover, does it stand to reason that if the council does not know how much money we are talking about, they are really in no position to even say no? How can they have any leverage to say no if they do not know how much money is involved? My point: they had no intentions of saying no from the beginning. Why? Probably because of FEAR! Fear that they will lose the company to another municipality and then lose their seat in the next election. Also, the council have no criteria for even saying no to these companies.

Lo & Behold, after a year of complaining about this, I open the Anderson Herald to find that the two mayoral candidates are posed the question about the appropriate use of the abatement. They both virtually agreed that it should be used "sparingly." But, you would not deduce any truth in the reasoning by watching politicians in action.

This bull cookie cooking has got to STOP!

Though I was wanting to save specific agenda items until we meet, I want to share one only by virtue of the fact that the heat is rising on this issue and we have not seen the boiling point yet. While we observe the heat getting hotter, I plan to suggest that we consider freeping the state capitol at the right time by creating a rally. As sure as the sun rises, I know that if we lead the way, we would get bucu support from all over the state.

What say you, O Hoosiers of a noble birthright?

Sorry, like to ham it up some when I get indignate.

Arrowhead>>>------taxes--->


TOPICS: Activism/Chapters
KEYWORDS: propertytaxabuse

1 posted on 07/20/2003 7:46:48 PM PDT by Arrowhead
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To: 2Am4Sure; 68skylark; ab1; adaus7; AFreeBird; aj_foyt; Always Right; Amelia76; amok; arasina; ...
Pinged Again.

Do not forget to ping the "Stand Up" thread if you want to meet on the 23rd of August for a meeting to plan.

Arrowhead>>>------>
2 posted on 07/20/2003 7:49:25 PM PDT by Arrowhead
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To: Arrowhead
You assume that giving a tax break to a corporation raises your taxes. However, it's SPENDING that responsible for high tax rates. Being jealous of what others are able to get makes you look small. Focus on reducing the spending and you'll find that your taxes go down and you can have a healthy, vibrant business community too.
3 posted on 07/20/2003 8:03:13 PM PDT by Drango (A liberal's compassion is limited only by the size of someone else's wallet.)
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To: Arrowhead; hoosierpearl; madmomma; bleudevil; hoosierboy
Good for you Arrowhead! Makes me realize how little I have participated in my own town council meetings.
4 posted on 07/20/2003 8:05:16 PM PDT by Republic
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To: Arrowhead
Lower social spending, and you won't have high property taxes. Here, most of ours goes to public schools who waste it on teachers. The pie graph has about 80% going to the teachers union and their bennies, then the school property, then to the little extra things the school needs like the football field updated and swimming pools. Nowhere on the graph does it include the kids academic needs.
The kids get photo copies instead of text books. No joke.
You're hunting the wrong enemy.
5 posted on 07/20/2003 8:18:03 PM PDT by concerned about politics (Anti-American liberals are inbread Notsosmarto's.)
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To: Drango
Drango,

No offense Sir, but you assume too much. I am outlaying only one small piece of what is otherwise a large formula of need for reform. "Breaks" as you call them do not bode well for a senior citizen with a limited income and an old house that is already paid for and they have to determined whether they can keep their home.

Arrowhead---taxes--->

6 posted on 07/20/2003 9:07:48 PM PDT by Arrowhead
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To: concerned about politics
Actually, the costs to communities in the form of abatements and "tax credits" goes into the billions nation wide. this part of the formula for reform is as much our enemy as any social giveaways. While we conservatives may point out the social aspect of the problem, we are less than honest if we do not tackle the whole problem. I am not a one sided bigot. Both sides are WRONG! They are both liars. And they are both on the wrong side of the people. Perhaps an examination of the bigger picture is in order here if you are "concerned about politics."

Arrowhead---corporate welfare AND social welfare--->

7 posted on 07/20/2003 9:14:21 PM PDT by Arrowhead
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To: Arrowhead
Good job! Thanks for posting about your activism.
8 posted on 07/20/2003 9:46:30 PM PDT by lelio
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To: Arrowhead
Im looking forward to working with everyone but Im not sure yet what my schedule is going to be like by the 23 because my classes resume on the 14th and I am carrying 21 hours this semester.

Ill let you know more when the time gets closer.
9 posted on 07/20/2003 10:39:19 PM PDT by Enemy Of The State (If we don't take action now, We settle for nothing later!)
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To: Arrowhead
Why do you think the business will stay if they can't get an abatement? If it was me, I would go to the city where it cost less to do business. Even if property taxes are low, it's tough to live without a job or some other source of income. I do think corporations should be paying what they owe instead of being allowed to weasel out of it, but the sad fact is that they will just do business somewhere else, and that's going to make it worse. A more serious problem is governmental waste.
10 posted on 07/21/2003 7:37:05 AM PDT by ReagansShinyHair
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To: Arrowhead
I am not a one sided bigot. Both sides are WRONG! They are both liars. And they are both on the wrong side of the people

ah geez, this ranting again. Chill out. You're never going to get anything accomplished with this scattershot Losertarian attacking of all sides.

I was born in Indiana, I'm glad I left, the "conservatives" there are so disorganized, and so ignorant of how a free market economy functions that I many times wonder how they vote GOP like they do with the Democratic party so adept at appealing to ignorance of capitalism. "If only FDR could come back, he would fix all our problems."

Corporate Welfare is an epitaph of the Democratic party, designed to equate their give aways with the GOP's reduction of corpoate taxes, which creates jobs and keeps workers paying into your social security. The fact you put yourself up as a representative of reform for the ills of my birthplace makes me fear that Indiana will never understand how to turn its economy upwards and continue to languish in mediocrity which always allows the Democrates to slip into more offices.

11 posted on 07/21/2003 9:45:37 AM PDT by PeoplesRep_of_LA (Governor McClintock in '03!)
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To: PeoplesRep_of_LA
Rule number 1 Corporations do not pay taxes, period. Be they property taxes or income taxes corporations pass 100% of their tax burden along to whomever buy their product or service.

When you hear the term corporate welfare what your hearing is a fundamentally flawed argument. If you look at the income statement for companies you will see that unless the company makes a profit they don't pay income taxes. What you don't see is how taxes are backblown through the pricing structure to be covered by an appropriately inflated purchase price to the consumer.

Ask any accoutant about how taxes on business are paid and they will all tell you that the business never pays the tax always the end consumer.

So when you hear of tax abatements to keep companies or entice them to an area and you instantly think corporate welfare or extortion the people you can really thank are the ones who thought up this assinine tax system in the first place.

Yes, here in Indiana we have taxes on nearly everything, property, sales nad income just to name a few and yet we are operating in the red statewide on a budgetary basis and why? Not because we don't pay enough in taxes, but becasue the politicians spend too much, period.

So if you think that your going to stop corporations from doing what they are chartered to do, that is make a profit and maximizing it by any legal means available, then you barking up the wrong tree with the tax abatement arguement.

You would be better off jumping the case of the council member who continualy says they don't spend enough on this program or that one. And constantly promotes increasing corparate taxes all they really are doing is raising your personal tax burden they are just hiding it.
12 posted on 07/21/2003 1:32:09 PM PDT by boilerfan (Hoosier born and Boilermaker educated!)
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To: Drango
You assume that giving a tax break to a corporation raises your taxes.

Not me! I think it depends on the corporation and what they do.

If a large retail corp., I assume it's unfair to the competition, many local businesses who helped build communities, who don't get the same tax breaks.

My hometown (pop. 8,000) just poured $1.3 million into infrustructure for a Lowes. The first $100,000 from their sales tax for 10 years will go to pay it off. Is it fair to the local home improvement mom's and pop's that will have to compete with them? Some have been in business 50 years and never got a dime in rebate, but pay commercial rates for utilities.

Seventy miles down the road, another town of similar size is getting a new Lowes and they didn't give them a "hello."

13 posted on 07/21/2003 2:38:03 PM PDT by lonestar (Don't mess with Texans!)
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To: ReagansShinyHair
Why do you think the business will stay if they can't get an abatement?

If I was to use the cases in my own council meetings to answer your question, it would be, "that depends." As I said in my post, the city council do not even know how much money with which they have to bargain. There may be an amount that the council can determine would not be in the best interests of the company to move. In that case, they should say no. But, my council has no idea. And in the last meeting, the company representatives did not even know how much they were saving in terms of the abatement. If they did, then they lied. And if they lied, that gives cause for the council to be even more wary of their requests to capitalize at the expense of the tax payer.

14 posted on 07/21/2003 2:56:53 PM PDT by Arrowhead
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To: concerned about politics
Are your municipal and school taxes collected by the same taxing entity? Our county, local governments and schools are totally separate.

We have idiots on county commisioners court, city council and school board.

People deserve what they get.

15 posted on 07/21/2003 3:19:09 PM PDT by lonestar (Don't mess with Texans!)
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To: PeoplesRep_of_LA
So glad to hear from someone who is looking from the outside in. I agree with most of your assessment. However, first I am not a "Losertarian," as you put it. Second, attacking both sides is the truer road to reform. How is it that one side is justified to bark in the home of the other when that side has house cleaning to do of it's own? One thing is for sure, the squabbling between the two has done virtually nothing but increase our taxes. The identity of a problem always precedes the retifying of one.

Moreover, why would we privateers give more rope for the politicians to hang the very head of what really feeds corporations? I believe a 33 trillion dollar debt says much for the fact that if corporations keep depriving communities of the lawful payment of their own taxes, it will eventually bankrupt them, not to mention the people...who are the ones that purchase the corporations products.

I would think, from a more professional perspective (that being taking the moral fiber into account in the decision-making), that corporations would want to pay their taxes. I believe this would have two major effects:

1. It would not "bite the hands that feed them," as the saying goes.

2. It puts conservatism in a better light for those in the dark to come and see (and would include those within our own ranks, as so alluded to Hoosier conservatives).

It would appear that you have had this dialogue before. Tell me, what is YOUR definition of capitalism, since everybody seems to have one? Mine is this: The freedom to profit off ones' OWNERSHIP.

We have went from that to profitting off other peoples wealth (banks) to profitting off the taxpayer (abatements & tax credits). Sorry, I draw my line at the banks. And if I had it my way, I would tell the federal reserve and their cronies to take a flying hike up the southside of their own usury and destroy all banks. But, that would seem too extreme to all knowing capitalists like yourself, eh?

Instead of staying in your homeland to fix the problems and make your home a better place to live, you skate the state and flee to where the "grass is greener on the other side, eh?" Perhaps somewhere you can take advantage of taxpayers? Well, we all know how that works. There may be more money there but, no honor in acquiring it.

You see Sir, I have been in this dialogue for enough years to know that the real value in the acquisition of wealth is not in the acquisition itself. It is in the method it was acquired. Corporations capitalizing off the taxpayers, especially when the payment is arbitrarily abated or arbitrarily credited compromises the honor in wealth building. A principle that only a moral people is fortunate to know and fortifide to exercise.

Arrowhead>>--can't make it on their own corps.--->

16 posted on 07/21/2003 3:37:50 PM PDT by Arrowhead
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To: lonestar; Drango
My hometown (pop. 8,000) just poured $1.3 million into infrustructure for a Lowes. The first $100,000 from their sales tax for 10 years will go to pay it off. Is it fair to the local home improvement mom's and pop's that will have to compete with them? Some have been in business 50 years and never got a dime in rebate, but pay commercial rates for utilities.

Leave it to a Texan to see with bigger eyes. Thank you. In an earlier post, that is what I meant when grants, "tax credits," and abatements are arbitraily given.

In another "Special Session" council meeting in my hometown, a company that has shown excellent steady growth for the last 20 years was asking for a $499,000 federal block grant to virtually pay for all the costs to build new migrant housing back to back to a neighborhood of single resident housing (needless to say, the people in the neighborhood were furious). Anyway, I pointed out that programs like this violate the 10th Amendment of the Constitution and strips our state and the individual of their own sovereignty. The President of the company agreed with me.."in principle."

Side note: Most of the Council had no idea what I was talking about. But the President of the corporation did.

Anyway, he went on about jusitifying the compromise of of his own conscience and rationalized that this money would be a repayment of all the taxes his corporation has paid through the years. Well, my heart bleeds for you.

I said, "Well, Mr.X, I am a business man. Where is my grant? I need more equipment to handle the increase of demand for my product. Where is my grant? " The room sat silent for a moment, then I said, "You see, this is the problem. This money is taken out of my pocket to send to Washington DC only to be redistributed to the states for whatever arbitrary means the State and County Council of Governments decide to distribute it. That IS a violation of the 10th Amendment, not to mention that it is morally wrong for John Q, worker to pay for your project without any representation."

Then he rationalizes, "Well, Mr.Y, by receiving this grant, this frees up money for our company to invest in other areas that it may bring more jobs to our community." Gee, is this guy slick, or what?

I said, "Again, Mr. X, where is my relief to expand my operations?" He then said that the money was not given to them on a silver platter. "We have to compete for this grant." Yeah! Right! I did my homework. The only competition for the company to receive the money was themselves. It was just a matter of the company going through the red tape. Or should I say, getting the red tape in order.

Besides this President insulting my intelligence, he freely admitted, through his own rationalization, that the company had the money to build the project. But, being granted the grant would help him divert money toward "other investments" so that he MAY hire more people. In other words, he wants the taxpayer to expand his operations.

I do not give a hootin' tarnation how capitalist anyone is or even how conservative anyone is. If this is the definition of conservatism and capitalism, then I want no part of it. Especially at the expense of TRUE small business. The Corporate mental hounds want us (the people) to believe their interpretation of capitalism. Well bullhockey, I say! While Corporations virtually control elected officials through buying their campaigns, it seems obvious to me that the structure of our laws has benefitted corps greatly at the expense of mom & pop. How can small business even start, let alone exist, when the rules (the rules laid down by corporations) do not allow them to?

The evidence is quite clear. So why do the corp hounds deny the moral account of it? Is it because they know that the way things are, it favors them? With their crafty approaches to us country bumkins and their consistence gratifying of their pride and covering of their sins, their wealth buiding is left to greed. Pure and simple. Thanks again lonestar, for having eyes wide open.

Arrowhead>>>--greedy corp hounds--->

17 posted on 07/21/2003 4:39:22 PM PDT by Arrowhead
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To: lonestar
Dang, I knew I had forgotten to say something more of my reply to Concerned. It came to mind, but was overshadowed by another thought. But that is why we have you, lonestar. He He

Arrowhead>>>----------->

18 posted on 07/21/2003 4:45:19 PM PDT by Arrowhead
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To: Arrowhead
You'll love this one! Walgreen's bought some land to build a store in town--paid over $500,000.

They asked the city to pay $8000 to remove an old gasoline tank from the property.

Bureaucrats love to give tax money so they can brag how many jobs they've brought to town. Without the tax money they have no bragging rights.

What I love is how the government employees (city managers, etc.) love to spend public money.

19 posted on 07/21/2003 5:19:26 PM PDT by lonestar (Don't mess with Texans!)
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To: Arrowhead
You might get the idea I've been fighting this fight myself. Thought you'd be interested in this bit of info.

--"One of the biggest myths is that in order to foster economic development, a community must accept growth. The truth is that growth must be distinguished from development: Growth means to get bigger, development means to get better..." but, "... often local governments will subsidize superstore development through infrastructure expansion (sound familiar?) in the name of economic development, only to facilitate more sprawl and municipal debt.

It is estimated that superstores return between 6 to 16% of their revenues to the community - compared with a 60% return by locally-owned business. Local entrepreneurs nourish the community, link commerce to place, and minimize the leakage of money from the local economy."--

20 posted on 07/21/2003 5:40:26 PM PDT by lonestar (Don't mess with Texans!)
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To: lonestar
Man, if you and I got together, we would have a hoot at some of these meetings. I yearn to find just one more like me to go and actually hold these yeh-whos accountable. I guess I am due for a trip to Texas.

BTW, I am part of an orgnaization that seeks to synergize certain, credible, constitutional orgs to move government back within it's constitutional jurisdiction. Three such members are from Texas. As a matter of fact, we started out our org by several of us from all over the states meeting at Lake Whitney. We officially began there on July 4th 1999.

I love Texas, but there is no place like home. Especially the big laugh I get when watching our elected officials trip over their own logic. Would not miss it for the world.

Stay the course Lonestar...

Arrowhead>>>------->

21 posted on 07/21/2003 5:41:12 PM PDT by Arrowhead
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To: lonestar
My God MAN! You hit the nail squarely on the head! That was a framing hammer strike if I ever saw one, being a third generation carpenter...among other things.

Any chance you could become a Hoosier? ;^)

22 posted on 07/21/2003 5:48:30 PM PDT by Arrowhead
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To: Arrowhead
the city council do not even know how much money with which they have to bargain.

I agree that there should be full disclosure on request. I bet that the council does know how much it is costing, too, they just don't want to admit it. I'm just not with the people who want to "stick it to businesses". I got my job from one, so I'm kind of partial to them sticking around.

23 posted on 07/21/2003 5:50:44 PM PDT by ReagansShinyHair
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To: Arrowhead
I love Texas, but there is no place like home.

I love Texas, it is home! :)

24 posted on 07/21/2003 6:22:40 PM PDT by lonestar (Don't mess with Texans!)
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To: ReagansShinyHair
I'm just not with the people who want to "stick it to businesses". I got my job from one, so I'm kind of partial to them sticking around.

We're talking about businesses getting taxpayer money to move to a town and many times putting small businesses that have been there for decades out of business. They are the same businesses who support the local communities more than the Wal-marts, Lowes and Walgreens.

They go into communities and the dollar they take in today is sent to their home office overnight. They provide minimum wage jobs; 39 hours a week. It is very harmful to samll towns.

25 posted on 07/21/2003 6:48:42 PM PDT by lonestar (Don't mess with Texans!)
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To: Arrowhead
Last year I think Time Magazine did a big article on corporate tax breaks. I seem to recall they could not find one instance where the town did as well as predicted. In a lot of cases, to companies took the breaks and then when the economy went south the company closed the plant, etc.

Sux big time!!

26 posted on 07/21/2003 7:07:52 PM PDT by upchuck (Contribute to "Republicans for Al Sharpton for President in 2004." Dial 1-800-SLAPTHADONKEY :)
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To: ReagansShinyHair; lonestar; Drango
Well, I do not look at it as "sticking it to business." If anything, SOME businesses, mainly large corporations, are sticking it to us. You know, the citizen, the taxpayer.

Consider this: If you decided that you were going to expand onto your home a large room addition that makes the mechanics of living more suitable so you can add another child to your family, a child that will grow up and pay taxes, do you think that if you took your expansion project to the City Council and ask for a ten year abatement on the reassessed value of your home, that you would get it?

Of course, they would laugh at you. So, why are we not laughing at the corporations? What is so differnt from their expansion projects than yours? You add a room, they add a warehouse. You add furnishings to the room, they add equipment to the warehouse. You add a child to your family (who btw, grows to help around the house and ultimately finds a job or is instrumental in creating jobs) and they add an employee.

Is there any real difference other than scale? And if not, I say what is good for the goose is good for the gander. If we have to pay the full weight of reassessment by virtue of improving our residential properties with no recourse for relief, then corporations should be required to pay their share as well. Contrary to some on this forum, if the corporations get "breaks," it does fall back upon those who do not! Namely, residents!

The astute business man understands, especially in terms of economies of scale, that a loss of financial opportunity can never be regained. Such is the nature of the abatement. Once we say yes, we can never regain that loss. And that is why the abatement should be used "sparingly."

Are you old enough to remember when a soda drink was a treat instead of a general rule of consumption? Well, if you are, then you are old enough to see how the exception in using the abatement nowadays has become the general rule as well. Just as the mass doses of the consumption of sugar has created a hyperactive reduction in our health, so has the extra consumption of corporations use of abatement result in the poor health of our economy.

Arrowhead>>>----->

27 posted on 07/21/2003 7:40:15 PM PDT by Arrowhead
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To: upchuck
Thanks! If you ever find that article, give me a ping, will ya?

Arrowhead>>>---->
28 posted on 07/21/2003 7:43:20 PM PDT by Arrowhead
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