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In Search of Noah’s Ark
MSNBC ^ | July 21st, 2003 | Eve Conant

Posted on 07/23/2003 7:03:32 AM PDT by LOL Clinton Was Impeached

He found the Titanic. Now Robert Ballard hunts the quarry of a lifetime

July 21 issue — Ten thousand years ago, the Black Sea was a freshwater lake in the middle of a vast, low-lying basin. Its fertile valleys and lush pastures would have given Neolithic hunter-gatherers a perfect opportunity to make the leap to a more settled, agricultural society. But then disaster struck.

ABOUT 7,500 YEARS ago the ice age ended, the world’s climate warmed and the seas rose. The Aegean Sea breached a narrow strip of land, where the Strait of Bosporus is today, like a dam bursting. Seawater poured into the basin with the force of 200 Niagara Falls’, raising the water level six inches each day and sending the human settlers scurrying to the hills. The story of the Great Flood was told and retold, eventually in Genesis: “In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life... the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. And the rain was on the earth forty days and forty nights.”

Did Noah’s Flood really happen this way and in this place? Some people think it did. In August, underwater explorer Robert Ballard intends to put this theory to the test. To do it, the 60-year-old Connecticut-based geologist—better known for his elaborately publicized ship-hunting escapades, including the discovery of the Titanic in 1985—is going to have to push the state of deep-sea technology. He’s designed a remotely piloted submersible, Hercules, which he claims can excavate for signs of human civilization at depths of 300 meters with a precision approaching what archeologists can muster with human hands.

(Excerpt) Read more at msnbc.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Miscellaneous; Unclassified
KEYWORDS: blacksea; catastrophism; faithandphilosophy; godsgravesglyphs; greatflood; noahsark; robertballard
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I'm not a big on literally believing the bible but this looks pretty interesting considering this Ballard guy is involved in this.
1 posted on 07/23/2003 7:03:32 AM PDT by LOL Clinton Was Impeached
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To: LOL Clinton Was Impeached
SPOTREP
2 posted on 07/23/2003 7:10:01 AM PDT by LiteKeeper
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To: LiteKeeper
"SPOTREP"???
3 posted on 07/23/2003 7:20:25 AM PDT by LOL Clinton Was Impeached
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To: LOL Clinton Was Impeached
Jesus was big on literally believing the Bible, and I'm big on Jesus; so maybe the guy's on to something.

Dan
Biblical Christianity web site

4 posted on 07/23/2003 7:24:11 AM PDT by BibChr ("...behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD, so what wisdom is in them?" [Jer. 8:9])
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To: LOL Clinton Was Impeached
Ballard is NOT looking for "Noah's Ark."

Not your fault of course. :-)

Prior to Ballard's FIRST Black Sea expedition, I noticed newspaper and website editors COULD NOT RESIST putting "Ark" in the titles as if Ballard was looking for the Ark just like the Titanic and Bismarck, even though it was clear from the articles there was no searching for or expectation of finding an Ark...again, I think it's the editors and not the authors doing it.

5 posted on 07/23/2003 7:25:22 AM PDT by John H K
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To: BibChr
I guess I just have a problem believing Noah would intentinally include stink beetles.

Seriously...

How do those who believe in Noah's Ark explain animals found only in certain parts of the world? (Australia and such).
6 posted on 07/23/2003 7:26:49 AM PDT by LOL Clinton Was Impeached
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To: LOL Clinton Was Impeached
Check out the documentary film "In Search of Noah's Ark". It's more than a bit dated now, but still extremely compelling.............including, no kidding, eyewitness accounts of the Ark in its resting place atop Mt. Ararat in Turkey. Don't laugh 'til you see the flick.
7 posted on 07/23/2003 7:27:38 AM PDT by RightOnline
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To: RightOnline
I've seen that...I'm pretty sure. Isn't the local population proteting it from "Outlanders" or some such?

(And along those same lines, I think I've seen something over the past few years that claims the locals are finially going to allow people in to investigate their claims?)
8 posted on 07/23/2003 7:29:50 AM PDT by LOL Clinton Was Impeached
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To: BibChr
Oh...A couple more, if you're so inlcined...

What about the dinosaurs?

What about all those little hairy dudes from "Walking with Cavemen"?
9 posted on 07/23/2003 7:33:11 AM PDT by LOL Clinton Was Impeached
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To: LOL Clinton Was Impeached
Explorer Who Discovered 'Titanic' Sets Out To Prove Noah's Flood Formed Black Sea
10 posted on 07/23/2003 7:36:27 AM PDT by blam
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To: LOL Clinton Was Impeached
DISCLAIMER: I swear, this is NOT a sarcastic question.

Have you ever read the entire Biblical account, Genesis 6-9, in full? It pretty well answers your questions.

As to dinosaurs... what problem do you see there?

Dan
11 posted on 07/23/2003 7:40:00 AM PDT by BibChr ("...behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD, so what wisdom is in them?" [Jer. 8:9])
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To: BibChr
As to dinosaurs... what problem do you see there?

The time frame compared to the Bible. Before or after Noah? Stuff like that.

Sorry I jumped into this, but that has always been a question I have had as a recently saved soul.

12 posted on 07/23/2003 7:44:22 AM PDT by eyespysomething (Would someone please tell them to SHUT UP!)
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To: BibChr
That works......except for the millions that don't believe the bible.
13 posted on 07/23/2003 7:44:41 AM PDT by stuartcr
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Comment #14 Removed by Moderator

To: seleniteswells
"If anyone honestly thinks that every species of the world fit in a little boat, I have one word for you...."

MIRACLE!

God said it, that settles it- and that's good enough for me.

15 posted on 07/23/2003 7:52:41 AM PDT by Ferret Fawcet (Trust God's authority, not man's majority.)
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To: eyespysomething
Dinosaurs would be before, if that's what you mean, and likely represented on the ark.

Dan
16 posted on 07/23/2003 7:56:17 AM PDT by BibChr ("...behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD, so what wisdom is in them?" [Jer. 8:9])
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To: stuartcr
Did you have to take a class on jumping into discussions you don't understand with embarassingly irrelevant disruptions, or is that an innate ability?

Dan
17 posted on 07/23/2003 7:57:23 AM PDT by BibChr ("...behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD, so what wisdom is in them?" [Jer. 8:9])
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To: LOL Clinton Was Impeached
Supernatualists believe in magic?
18 posted on 07/23/2003 7:59:32 AM PDT by ASA Vet ("Those who know, don't talk. Those who talk, don't know." (I'm in the Sgt Schultz group))
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Comment #19 Removed by Moderator

To: BibChr
Like most others here on freerepublic, I'm happy to say it's an innate ability. Why is it that you feel it necessary to talk to people with that tone?
20 posted on 07/23/2003 8:05:45 AM PDT by stuartcr
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To: BibChr
So if dinosaurs were on the ark, weren't they (dinosaurs) around before the mammals, or at least the majority of them? So did Noah only have reptiles on board?

Thanks for answering.
21 posted on 07/23/2003 8:06:50 AM PDT by eyespysomething (Would someone please tell them to SHUT UP!)
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To: BibChr
And Dan...I'm not being sarcastic either. I find discussions from both ends of the debate interesting...

To answer your question, I don't believe I've read that (Well, I KNOW I don't remember reading it).

Along those same lines...I was raised Catholic. Isn't the basic problem that Fundementalists have with Caholics that they (We, I guess...Even though I don't practice anymore) don't read the bible? (I've seen some bashing of Catholics on this forum and for the life of me, can't figure-out what the problem is).

As for dinousaurs...Well...

They didn't exist at the same time as the animals that were suposed to be on the Ark. (Of course I worked with a guy who was some kind of Christian where they believe EVERYTHING in the bible LITERALLY: God created the world in six, 24 hour days, etc.....And he said the dinosaurs were just "Giant Animals". He said since some people in the new testement lived to be 500? years, animals lived a long time too...And just got REALLY big. Of course I never asked him why people didn't become giants too).

Anyway...All that's open for discussion if you, or anyone is interested...
22 posted on 07/23/2003 8:11:46 AM PDT by LOL Clinton Was Impeached
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To: stuartcr
In cases like yours, I got the idea from Proverbs 26:5.

You'll find I deal very differently with honest questions from honest questioners.

Dan
23 posted on 07/23/2003 8:12:45 AM PDT by BibChr ("...behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD, so what wisdom is in them?" [Jer. 8:9])
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To: LOL Clinton Was Impeached
Bump for later read
24 posted on 07/23/2003 8:13:38 AM PDT by Ditter
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To: eyespysomething
The text indicates he had representative of all species; so that would include reptiles, lizards, insects, the whole nine yards.

Dan
25 posted on 07/23/2003 8:13:54 AM PDT by BibChr ("...behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD, so what wisdom is in them?" [Jer. 8:9])
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To: ASA Vet
Huh??
26 posted on 07/23/2003 8:15:41 AM PDT by LOL Clinton Was Impeached
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To: BibChr
Here's another post I made similar to this one (Religion being discussed)...

http://freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/951176/posts
27 posted on 07/23/2003 8:19:39 AM PDT by LOL Clinton Was Impeached
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To: LOL Clinton Was Impeached; Dataman
Thanks for all that. It isn't necessary to read the Bible to be a Roman Catholic; and even if one does, one is only allowed to see what the Roman Catholic church decrees is there. Dozens and dozens and dozens of conversations confirm that statement, though apolgists will formally deny it.

The brief response to the rest is that yes, if you don't believe Jesus was a deluded liar or a charlatan, you come around to seeing the OT as eyewitness account from an unerring source: God. As with everything, the central issue is Jesus.

Start with that premise, and the phenomena of geology with the resultant timeline are seen differently. Whereas someone who assumes a uniformitarian approach would say a stratum is old because it has old fossils, and the fossils are old because they're in an old stratum (see the pretty circle?), another with another assumption would see it differently.

The much shorter answer is that I'm not at all sure that dinosaurs, which there is reason to believe existed alongside men, weren't on the ark.

Dan
Why I Am (Still) a Christian

28 posted on 07/23/2003 8:21:44 AM PDT by BibChr ("...behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD, so what wisdom is in them?" [Jer. 8:9])
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To: BibChr
How many species were on the Ark, and how long did it take to load them all?
29 posted on 07/23/2003 8:25:21 AM PDT by TomB
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To: TomB
How many species were on the Ark, and how long did it take to load them all?

Twenty-seven species, and it took fourteen hours, thirty-three minutes.

Dan

30 posted on 07/23/2003 8:27:47 AM PDT by BibChr ("...behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD, so what wisdom is in them?" [Jer. 8:9])
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To: TomB
BTW, that was a joke! LOL, how should I know? There were representatives of all the "kinds," and Noah had 120 years to complete all the preparations, which were aided by the same God who "hard-wires" migratory patterns (Genesis 6:3; 7:9).

Dan
(c8

31 posted on 07/23/2003 8:31:33 AM PDT by BibChr ("...behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD, so what wisdom is in them?" [Jer. 8:9])
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To: BibChr
Here is what I do not understand regarding the insistence on the literal, historical and geological veracity of the Genesis story of the Great Flood: why is it NECESSARY to insist on its literal, historical and geological veracity?

Would it not be more in keeping with the theological objectives of the Hebrew Scriptures (as a commentary on the relationship between humans and G-D) to focus first and foremost on the theological message of the Genesis account of the Great Flood? And in so doing, one would note that there are other stories of the Great Flood from ancient Sumeria and Babylon; and one would note that the Genesis account deliberately borrows the main story line from the Flood story that featured Utnapishtim, but also deliberately re-casts the story to reflect theological convictions of Ancient Israel.

See, for example, what Nahum Sarna says about the Genesis Flood story in his book, Understanding Genesis. In this approach, attention to the literary character of the story leads to a greater appreciation of its theological message.

So my question is: what can an insistence on the literal, historical and geological veracity of the Flood Story ADD?

32 posted on 07/23/2003 8:38:04 AM PDT by Remole
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To: BibChr
Did you have to take a class on jumping into discussions you don't understand with embarassingly irrelevant disruptions, or is that an innate ability?

It's innate. He also has the amazing ability to ignore all answers to questions. There's a use for a skill like that at the DNC.

33 posted on 07/23/2003 8:39:59 AM PDT by Dataman
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To: BibChr
The only question I asked was why you feel it necessary to use the tone you do, where is the folly in that?
34 posted on 07/23/2003 8:40:03 AM PDT by stuartcr
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To: BibChr
LOL, how should I know?

The Bible says seven days (Gen 7)

How did they load thousands of animals in seven days?

35 posted on 07/23/2003 8:41:02 AM PDT by TomB
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To: BibChr
Just one more thought, to be more precise: if a literary approach gets to the theological truth of the Flood story, what MORE can be added by insisting on its historical, literal, and geological veracity?
36 posted on 07/23/2003 8:44:18 AM PDT by Remole
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To: BibChr
Thanks for all that. It isn't necessary to read the Bible to be a Roman Catholic; and even if one does, one is only allowed to see what the Roman Catholic church decrees is there. Dozens and dozens and dozens of conversations confirm that statement, though apolgists will formally deny it.

So I guess that's the basic problem "Christans" have with "Catholics"? Catholics pick and chose what they want to believe and preach? (And also, don't Christians have a problem with Catholics worshiping statues and stuff?)

37 posted on 07/23/2003 8:44:36 AM PDT by LOL Clinton Was Impeached
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To: TomB; BibChr
How did they load thousands of animals in seven days?

Who is "they?"

38 posted on 07/23/2003 8:44:51 AM PDT by Dataman
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To: Remole; Dataman
Can't tell you anything about "G-D," to me that's only an abbreviation for a blasphemy.

As to the rest, I'm quite familiar with the argument. We could have a long friendly chat, but the bottom-line answer is fairly simple.

The reason why Christians "insist" on such things is that God's revelation is framed in history as well as words, and the words reveal the history (Hebrews 1:1, 2).

In other words, quite literally from Genesis to Revelation, God (A) DOES NOT reveal Himself by means of a series of high-flown apothegms and theoretical musings, but by starkest contrast (B) DOES elect to reveal Himself in words and deeds done in this year, in this kingdom, in this city, by this river, to this person with this name. There simply is no getting around it.

And Jesus affirms this very approach to both Old (retrospectively) and New (prospectively) Testaments.

So it all boils down to this: is Jesus a deluded liar, or isn't He?

A Christian is a person who affirms that He is the truth.

A person who denies that is a non-Christian.

Dan
Help for Bible Students
The Science of Bible Reading

39 posted on 07/23/2003 8:47:08 AM PDT by BibChr ("...behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD, so what wisdom is in them?" [Jer. 8:9])
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To: Dataman
Who is "they?"

"Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them"

40 posted on 07/23/2003 8:47:58 AM PDT by TomB
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To: TomB
Going by the fairly recent "Noah's Ark" movie...

Didn't God perform certain miricles in order the help Noah? Like making sure the animals don't mate during the trip, and such. I also remember God cutting, stacking and marking all the wood so Noah and his children only had to "Build by numbers".

In other words: Miracle. (Which, of course ends any kind of debate on the subject.)
41 posted on 07/23/2003 8:48:24 AM PDT by LOL Clinton Was Impeached
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To: stuartcr
You really do seem to have some problem with following a line of thought. Start with my original post, then your "reply," then mine to that. All will be clear.

Dan

42 posted on 07/23/2003 8:48:37 AM PDT by BibChr ("...behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD, so what wisdom is in them?" [Jer. 8:9])
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To: TomB
Answered.
43 posted on 07/23/2003 8:49:01 AM PDT by BibChr ("...behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD, so what wisdom is in them?" [Jer. 8:9])
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To: Remole
Already answered in my last post. The theological truth is, by design, inseparably embedded in the historical narrative. The narrative is in plain Hebrew prose. If the narrative is untrue, the theological claims are untrue. All the arguments in the world can't circumnavigate that fact.

Dan

44 posted on 07/23/2003 8:50:20 AM PDT by BibChr ("...behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD, so what wisdom is in them?" [Jer. 8:9])
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To: BibChr; Dataman
See, it really is innate in a lot of us.
45 posted on 07/23/2003 8:52:17 AM PDT by stuartcr
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To: BibChr
Answered.

Where?

46 posted on 07/23/2003 8:52:30 AM PDT by TomB
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To: LOL Clinton Was Impeached
Oh, look; do you want to bring a flood of angry Roman Catholics down on me, or what? (c8

See my Biblical Christianity message board. A thread up at the top happens to be about that very issue.

Also, for a contast between Biblical Christianity and Roman Catholicism, this site has several helpful, readable essays. Start with Slide 1 and Slide 2 towards the bottom. Then you might want to read the testimony of the RC priest who ended up leaving Rome for Jesus.

Dan

47 posted on 07/23/2003 8:54:08 AM PDT by BibChr ("...behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD, so what wisdom is in them?" [Jer. 8:9])
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To: TomB
I had a young student who researced that, trying to debunk the account. He was young but quite brilliant. We assumed bugs and the really little stuff could live on floating debris. Subtracting out them and aquatic life forms cuts out over 90% of animal life right there. We also subtracted out the amphibians, and the roughly 15% of birds, mammals, and reptiles who are at home in the water.

The answer was something like 11,000 "kinds". No one knows for sure when this flood occured, but I would guess it could be fewer species than that since speciation by subtraction could occur in the intervening years. In other words, 6,000 species released 10-12K ago could split into 11,000 today.
48 posted on 07/23/2003 8:59:26 AM PDT by Ahban
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To: BibChr
But in the approach I am talking about (to get at the theological message of the Genesis Flood story), I am not suggesting that one deals in "a series of high-flown apothegms and theoretical musings"; I am saying that there is value--and I dare to say, value superior to arguments that insist upon the capacity of Noah's ark to carry two of every species--in reading the Flood accounts of other cultures in the Ancient Near East; noting carefully the parallels; and then noting carefully the differences; and then coming to realize the theological message of the Genesis flood story, as a deliberate polemic by Ancient Israel against one aspect of the culture that surrounded them.

To do that well, one is not engaging in vague theological musings; one is carrying out hard literary and historical analysis to get at sublime theological truths. One is also recognizing how God revealed His Will to human beings living at a particular time and place, by means of inspiring human authors to write a story well in order to clarify more carefully the faith of Ancient Israel vis-a-vis other cultures.

Compared to that sort of insight, what is the value of arguing about the presence of dinosaurs on the Ark?

49 posted on 07/23/2003 9:00:18 AM PDT by Remole
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To: BibChr
"If the narrative is untrue, the theological claims are untrue."

___________________

Ah, I think we have reached the premise. I've not the time to delve into this discussion fully, but now I see where you are coming from.

50 posted on 07/23/2003 9:03:32 AM PDT by Remole
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