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Minutemen of the Third Reich: History of the Nazi Werwolf Guerrilla Movement
History Today ^ | October 2000 | Perry Biddiscombe

Posted on 07/24/2003 7:58:27 PM PDT by Angelus Errare

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I just felt this might be of some general interest to FReepers given the current state of Iraq.
1 posted on 07/24/2003 7:58:28 PM PDT by Angelus Errare
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To: dennisw; Cachelot; Yehuda; Nix 2; veronica; Catspaw; knighthawk; Alouette; Optimist; weikel; ...
If you'd like to be on or off this middle east/political ping list, please FR mail me.
2 posted on 07/24/2003 8:00:39 PM PDT by SJackson
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To: Angelus Errare
Worse still, the Allies and Soviets reacted to the movement with extremely tough controls, curtailing the right of assembly of German civilians. Challenges of any sort were met by collective reprisals -- especially on the part of the Soviets and the French. In a few cases the occupiers even shot hostages and cleared out towns where instances of sabotage occurred. It was standard practice for the Soviets to destroy whole communities if they faced a single act of resistance. In the eastern fringes of the `Greater Reich', now annexed by the Poles and the Czechoslovaks, Werewolf harassment handed the new authorities an excuse to rush the deportations of millions of ethnic Germans to occupied Germany.

Different time, different place.

3 posted on 07/24/2003 8:01:41 PM PDT by Archangelsk (Ah, youth, the chance to be uninformed and suffer an early death.)
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To: Coop; swarthyguy; Destro; JustPiper; FairOpinion; ganeshpuri89; Dog; Dog Gone; Luis Gonzalez; ...
Ping
4 posted on 07/24/2003 8:04:47 PM PDT by Angelus Errare
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To: Angelus Errare
It is ridiculous and insulting to do what the headline does...tie the blessed memory of the Minutemen to the memory of a bunch of terrorist-thug Nazi losers.
5 posted on 07/24/2003 8:08:12 PM PDT by EternalVigilance
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To: Angelus Errare
I knew about the Werewolves. 99.44% of the American press today are dumb as a bag of hammers on the subject. It is a studied ignorance, which allows them to pump out their hand-wringing articles about the occupation of Iraq, today.

That's why I included the Werewolves in my latest column, which is up on FR, well-received, and today both published on ChronWatch (San Francisco Chronicle, of all places), and subject to a "Closed Thread" on Lucianne (go figure).

Thanks for the post. Of course this is relevant. See below.

Congressman Billybob

Latest article, now up FR, "Sixteen Little Words."

6 posted on 07/24/2003 8:09:46 PM PDT by Congressman Billybob ("Don't just stand there. Run for Congress." www.ArmorforCongress.com)
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To: EternalVigilance
I agree completely, I was just quoting the headline.
7 posted on 07/24/2003 8:10:00 PM PDT by Angelus Errare
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To: Angelus Errare
AS WORRIES INCREASE about neo-Nazi and skinhead violence in Germany, it is worth remembering that this type of terrorism is a nasty constant in the history of the German radical-right.

The Nazis weren't 'radical-right'; they were radical socialists.

8 posted on 07/24/2003 8:13:38 PM PDT by EternalVigilance
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To: Angelus Errare
Thanks for the ping.

Interesting article. That is exactly what the Iraqi Ba'athists were trying to do.

Did you see this?

From Iraqi Intelligence: A Plan for Action in the Event of a Regime Downfall (doc. found in Iraq)

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/949973/posts
9 posted on 07/24/2003 8:15:47 PM PDT by FairOpinion
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To: Angelus Errare
I know you didn't write the title so, please, don't think I'm flaming you....

...but comparisons between Minutemen and the Werewolves that imply any kind of equivalency are wildly inaccurate.

No flames, just a caveat for those readers who might not know.

10 posted on 07/24/2003 8:20:48 PM PDT by Petronski (I'm not always cranky.)
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To: FairOpinion
Yeah, I saw that thread.

From what I gather, though, the "guerrillas" we're fighting right now are basically whatever is left of the Fedayeen combined with elements of the Special Security Organization and the Special Republican Guard that chose to keep fighting after Baghdad fell. They were probably aware of the plan and are now trying to implement it, abeit with a very low rate of success for a guerrilla war. Compared to Chechnya or Kashmir, Iraq is hardly a "quagmire."
11 posted on 07/24/2003 8:21:13 PM PDT by Angelus Errare
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To: Petronski
No flame taken.

Like I said, I simply transcribed the title because I thought the article was relevant to the current situation.
12 posted on 07/24/2003 8:22:15 PM PDT by Angelus Errare
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To: Angelus Errare
I have a horrible habit of posting without reading the thread--which reading would have warned me that you had already been flagged on my point.

The article takes an interesting position, and I thank you for it.

13 posted on 07/24/2003 8:26:13 PM PDT by Petronski (I'm not always cranky.)
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To: sphinx; Toirdhealbheach Beucail; curmudgeonII; roderick; Notforprophet; river rat; csvset; ...
Post WWII Nazi terrorism ping!!!

If you want on or off the Western Civilization Military History ping list, let me know.
14 posted on 07/24/2003 8:45:19 PM PDT by Sparta (Check out my new blog, http://bayousage.blogspot.com)
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To: Angelus Errare
Sorry you misunderstood--I wasn't flaming you, I was pointing out the inaccuracies of the writer and of whomever wrote the headline.

Thanks for the post. Very timely.
15 posted on 07/24/2003 8:49:49 PM PDT by EternalVigilance
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To: Congressman Billybob
I'd never heard of the werewolves until now. Guess that goes to show what sorry state of affairs our public school system is in. No surprise they existed, given how good Hitler was at brainwashing the youth of Germany.
16 posted on 07/24/2003 8:50:30 PM PDT by graycamel
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To: Angelus Errare
AS WORRIES INCREASE about neo-Nazi and skinhead violence in Germany, it is worth remembering that this type of terrorism is a nasty constant in the history of the German radical-right.

What is with these historical revisionists that REFUSE to understand that NAZI means National Socialist!!!

I guess these LIEberals need to deflect and PROJECT what they are, since no one in the public would accept them if the truth was WIDELY known!

17 posted on 07/24/2003 8:52:53 PM PDT by Itzlzha (The avalanche has already started...it is too late for the pebbles to vote!)
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To: Congressman Billybob
I heard about the Werewolves while a military dependant at Laughlin AFB, Texas, during the early sixties. Many of my peers' fathers were allied with the U-2's that flew from there and for some reason relayed the stories of them to the rest of us. This is the first I have heard about them since the sixties. Amazing.....
18 posted on 07/24/2003 8:57:54 PM PDT by vetvetdoug
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To: Sparta
Thanks for the ping Sparta. You have to figure Hussein studied the Werewovles. He seems to have modeled a lot of his government on the Nazi methods.
19 posted on 07/24/2003 9:01:34 PM PDT by SAMWolf (Everytime I lose weight, it finds me again.)
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To: Sparta
Thanks Sparta. This sounds like a quagmire!!!!!!!
20 posted on 07/24/2003 9:10:47 PM PDT by eeman
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To: SAMWolf
He did. The Ba'ath Party is a neo-Nazi political organization. Saddam was raised by a Nazi sympathizer, as I recall.
21 posted on 07/24/2003 9:18:49 PM PDT by narses ("The do-it-yourself Mass is ended. Go in peace" Francis Carindal Arinze of Nigeria)
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To: EternalVigilance
It is ridiculous and insulting to do what the headline does...tie the blessed memory of the Minutemen to the memory of a bunch of terrorist-thug Nazi losers.

Thank you sir, for forming the words.

22 posted on 07/24/2003 9:19:39 PM PDT by He Rides A White Horse (For or against us.........)
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To: Angelus Errare; Archangelsk; EternalVigilance; Congressman Billybob; FairOpinion; Petronski; ...
In Antony Beevor's The Fall of Berlin 1945 the Werewolf project is described as something that lived only in the mind of Joseph Goebbels along with his National Redoubt. It fooled the Soviets and allies which caused much suffering amongst German civilians after the end of the war. To Stalin's Soviets, who were a paranoid bunch to begin with the Werewolf propaganda was swallowed whole. This meant that any house that had any military related item in it like an old uniform meant that the whole family would be killed. Eisenhower's acceptance of the National Redoubt propaganda made him divert the army to the south rather than driving on to the west to meet up with the Russians.

In fact, Jewish revenge squads killed more Nazis via acts of terror (and an attempted mass poisoning) than the Nazis killed occupation forces after the end of the war during the occupation.

I want to also add that Beevor's book mentions how the German civilians were not troublemakers for the Soviets and to the shock of the Soviet occupiers who found the Germans compliant and submissive.

You can't compare Iraq to Germany or Japan. Both Germany and Japan had golden years of democratic representative govts that were still remembered. In addition they were both homogenous cultures and in Japan there was even an Emperor to focus loyalty.

We are also not the same Americans as we used to be. Our military and nation in that era was well practiced in colonialisim. We had occupied many Latin American nations routinely and we had a good sized colonial presence. Gen. MacArthur and his staff got to the practice they needed to run Japan when they ran the Phillipines. We had diplomats, beaurocrats, NCOs and officers in our military back then that had experiance in ruling foreign peoples in a colonial manner.

As the expeiances of the last 20 years has shown, America and even the UK has lost the tradition and experiances of how to nation build. Every nation building attempt of the last 20 years has been a complete failure.

Please no more comparisons of Iraq with Germany and Japan (why does everyone forget Italy?).

23 posted on 07/24/2003 9:23:58 PM PDT by Destro (Know your enemy! Help fight Islamic terrorisim by visiting www.johnathangaltfilms.com)
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To: Angelus Errare; Sparta
Thanks for posting and pinging this. It will be useful in some discussions with some "Vietnam quagmire" types, who seem to think we should allow a few nutcase committed extremists to thwart our efforts.
24 posted on 07/24/2003 9:28:08 PM PDT by FreedomPoster (this space intentionally blank)
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To: graycamel; Itzlzha; vetvetdoug; SAMWolf; eeman; narses; He Rides A White Horse
See my post #23. The Werewolf resistance of Joseph Goebbels was just propaganda. Joseph Goebbels truely was a master of propaganda if almost 60 years after his death his trickery lives on as fact.
25 posted on 07/24/2003 9:32:55 PM PDT by Destro (Know your enemy! Help fight Islamic terrorisim by visiting www.johnathangaltfilms.com)
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To: Destro
I guess there's more than one version of history. Wow, that's never happened before. (sarcasm). Maybe this can be investigated further? I doubt it, since there'll be bias in the minds of the investigators and they will doctor the results.
26 posted on 07/24/2003 9:39:49 PM PDT by graycamel
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To: graycamel
What investigation need be made that has not been made? The Werewolves were a myth. The Nazis resistance amounted to leaving Germany for South America via the Rat Line and that's about it.

Buy Bevoor's book. It was not as good as his work on the Battle of Stalingrad (Enemy at the Gate) but it was a top notch read and he goes into some detail of the Werewolves myth and how it hurt ordinary German civilians because the Soviet soldiers thought it was true and would kill thousands of civilian survivors based on mere suspicion (like a dead son's uniform in a closet would get the family in the house shot).

When the shooting stop there was no recorded act of these Werewolves in Russian territory. General N.E. Berzarin's death if not an auto accident was probably a hit by Stalin according to Beevor. Beevor gives the reason why Stalin would want Berzarin killed but I don't remember it. In fact he probably did die in an accident without foul play like Patton did. Germany had no traffic system at the time that would regulate traffic and slow down road accidents.

27 posted on 07/24/2003 9:54:04 PM PDT by Destro (Know your enemy! Help fight Islamic terrorisim by visiting www.johnathangaltfilms.com)
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To: SAMWolf

He seems to have modeled a lot of his government on the Nazi methods.

I've always equated the Iraqi Republican Guard to the Waffen SS.

28 posted on 07/24/2003 10:10:22 PM PDT by Sparta (Check out my new blog, http://bayousage.blogspot.com)
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To: narses; SAMWolf

He did. The Ba'ath Party is a neo-Nazi political organization. Saddam was raised by a Nazi sympathizer, as I recall.

True. Also, Saddam was an admirer of Stalin as well.

29 posted on 07/24/2003 10:12:34 PM PDT by Sparta (Check out my new blog, http://bayousage.blogspot.com)
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To: Angelus Errare
Bump for later!
30 posted on 07/24/2003 10:13:55 PM PDT by Bayou City
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To: Angelus Errare
I read something about a unit that was encircled, then bypassed by the Soviets that formed the nucleus of a local resistance to Soviet rule, that wasn't finally completely crushed until the seventies or the eighties.

It was in (IIRC) the Baltics someplace, I think. It wasn't a pure local rebellion, as it was started either by the Germans or by a ethnically-local German auxiliary unit, or something like that. It was very directly a leftover ember of World War 2. Anybody remember anything about this?
31 posted on 07/24/2003 10:33:17 PM PDT by Riley
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To: Riley
Those were ethnic Balts not Germans.
32 posted on 07/24/2003 10:41:42 PM PDT by Destro (Know your enemy! Help fight Islamic terrorisim by visiting www.johnathangaltfilms.com)
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To: Destro
The Werewolves "program" was a failure. While the Nazi's hoped that the people would resisit and cause the Occupation troops a lot of trouble it, for the most part never materialized. There were isolated incidents but it was never the organization the Nazi's wanted it too be.
33 posted on 07/24/2003 11:03:59 PM PDT by SAMWolf (Everytime I lose weight, it finds me again.)
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To: SAMWolf
Even the isolated incidents were mostly hungry German men caught behind Red lines ambushing Russians for food in the last days of the war...
34 posted on 07/24/2003 11:13:48 PM PDT by Destro (Know your enemy! Help fight Islamic terrorisim by visiting www.johnathangaltfilms.com)
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To: Destro
Patton died from foul play? Sounds Kooky to me... but you're probably right. When it comes to books I have a short attention span. They just don't hold my interest more than 1 hour. Same with movies. Must be all that broccoli I eat, just kidding.
35 posted on 07/24/2003 11:14:05 PM PDT by graycamel
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To: graycamel
No!!!!!!!!!! I said he did not doe of foul plat but teh possibility of the Rssian generla was killed by foul play exists....
36 posted on 07/24/2003 11:15:18 PM PDT by Destro (Know your enemy! Help fight Islamic terrorisim by visiting www.johnathangaltfilms.com)
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To: Destro
I sould not type in the dark
37 posted on 07/24/2003 11:15:55 PM PDT by Destro (Know your enemy! Help fight Islamic terrorisim by visiting www.johnathangaltfilms.com)
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To: EternalVigilance
>>>> The Nazis weren't 'radical-right'; they were radical socialists.

This is an over-simplification. Hitler was a master at harnessing latent fears and passions among the populace. The communists were gathering force in Germany, so Hitler embraced some of communism's lingo and extended it for his own benefit. The same is true for anti-semitism. Hitler observed the mayor of Vienna making use of ethnic intolerance as a means for obtaining loyal support from the citizenry, and so he added that to his bag of tricks.

To say that Hitler's hodgepodge of political ideals was socialist is wrong in two ways. First, Hitler had no ideals but power. Second, Hitler made promises that sounded like socialism to the people in order to obtain their trust. He made other promises to businessmen, and still others to the military that had nothing to do with socialism. Hitler followed the rule that you promise whatever it takes to gain the advantage in every political arena. Once you have power, you sieze it to accomplish your other aims. Hitler's core aims were right-wing. For the American right to protest that this weren't the case is probably due to fear of being associated with fascism, but it's unnecessary as long as the American populace is allowed to be armed. Moreover, just because we are on the right (and have a sense of righteousness) today does not mean that a threat to American freedoms will never come from the right in the future.

There is irony in calling Hitler a socialist because Stalin was no more a communist than Hitler was a socialist. Both men used ideologies to harness people's collective will. Both men never cared for the academic theories of the political movements they purported to lead. On the other hand, Hitler was much more eclectic in his selection of ideologies to tout.

Power wants power, and gets it any way it can.

The American dalliance with socialism is fueled by two kinds of politics: socialism for ideals, and socialism for the force it provides to the enemies of freedom. Of course in the end, socialism's promises are usurped by the heartless powerbrokers because of the weapons socialism provides them. However, we should fear the ideologues more than the powerbrokers because they are the ones who break the back of freedom first.

But socialism is only one enemy of freedom. We shouldn't lose track of the others thinking "if only we crush anything that looks like communism we'll be safe." Hitler's special brand of tyranny was something else again besides pure socialism. There was nothing pure about it.
38 posted on 07/24/2003 11:23:03 PM PDT by risk
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To: Destro
No!!!!!!!!!! I said he did not doe of foul plat but teh possibility of the Rssian generla was killed by foul play exists....

Sorry I misunderstood the sentence in your previous post. The double negative confused me. Ps, you spell poorly in the post I refer to above.
39 posted on 07/24/2003 11:54:08 PM PDT by graycamel
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To: risk
My own perferred terminology is statism. And Hitler was pretty clearly statist just as communists and socialists are also statists. And beyond trying to put more and more control in the hands of a central government to me the difference between Royalists, Communists, Socialists, Hitlerites etc is basically window dressing. Call it right or left or whatever, it is trying to amass power as you say but you are wrong to say his core aims were right-wing.

His core aim was the same as any tyrant, power. That is true of tyrants in Africa and the middle East today. It was true of the Soviet Bloc. It was true of Hitler, the Japanese militarists and Franco. Was true of the devine right kings. It has been true in theocracies throughtout history.

And I agree, the headline writer is clearly another lefty showing us how right Ann Coulter is. She could not have published at a better time.
40 posted on 07/24/2003 11:58:21 PM PDT by JLS
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To: JLS
Thanks, I like your perspective. The common enemy is statism, no matter what its form or the terms the people who crave its power use to beguile their happless victims and enablers.
41 posted on 07/25/2003 12:19:19 AM PDT by risk
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To: Angelus Errare
Very relevant. Thanks for your post.
42 posted on 07/25/2003 4:33:00 AM PDT by PGalt
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To: Angelus Errare
Minutemen?? Radical Right???
hoo - where to start?
43 posted on 07/25/2003 4:47:15 AM PDT by King Prout (people hear and do not listen, see and do not observe, speak without thought, post and not edit)
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To: JLS
I see we are on the same page.
44 posted on 07/25/2003 4:48:53 AM PDT by King Prout (people hear and do not listen, see and do not observe, speak without thought, post and not edit)
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To: graycamel
Excellent speller--horrible typist.
45 posted on 07/25/2003 4:51:10 AM PDT by Destro (Know your enemy! Help fight Islamic terrorisim by visiting www.johnathangaltfilms.com)
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To: Angelus Errare
Interesting stuff. Thanks

I take some comfort in reading this, because it sounds as if the Werewolves were better organized than the groups in Iraq. Yet they didn't slow history down one bit, thank God. Helps us keep the faith while continuing to pray for our troops.

46 posted on 07/25/2003 4:56:59 AM PDT by Coop (God bless our troops!)
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To: Angelus Errare
Good catch. Was there any resistance to US occupation in Japan?
47 posted on 07/25/2003 5:01:42 AM PDT by Former Proud Canadian
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To: Destro
You are wrong on a number of points. I'll mention only a few. Eisenhower temporarily believed in the "redoubt in Bavaria" theory, but abandoned it based on better intelligence, just prior to the collapse of Germany. The Werewolves did exist (just not controlled from Bavaria) and did conduct attacks in all four sectors of German occupation -- American, French, British and Russian.

The facts on the ground of German occupation in 1945-46 are nearly identical in all respects to Iraqi occupation in 1003-2004. The number of Americans involved, the casualty rates, the rates of sabotage, the rates of attacks on "collaborators" are all statistical matches between Germany and Iraq.

You are correct that Japan does not apply. However, that is because they revered the Emperor, and McArthur (wisely) left the Emperor in place and the Emperor (wisely) urged no resistance to the occupation. Your question about Italy shows you've missed a few historical points. Much of Italy fell, in the last days, to Italian partisans, rather than Allied troops. It was Italians who hung Mussolini's body from a lamppost in Milan.

America has not attempted any "nation-building" in the last twenty years that was remotely comparable to Iraq, today. But it did do precisely that, under nearly identical circumstances, in Germany in 1945-46. You need to read some more history books from WW II.

Congressman Billybob

Latest article, now up FR, "Sixteen Little Words."

48 posted on 07/25/2003 7:27:36 AM PDT by Congressman Billybob ("Don't just stand there. Run for Congress." www.ArmorforCongress.com)
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To: graycamel
You can find on the Net the official history of VII Corps (Patton's unit). The attacks in its area were carried out by Germans as young as 12. About half were Werewolves. The other half were unorganized, some by people who infiltrated into Germany from other nations precisely to engage in attacks on Americans.

The parallels between that history and what is happening in Iraq today (including the fact that Hitler was not proven to be dead until December, 1945, and was widely believed to be alive and still leading the resistance) will make the hair stand up on the back of your neck. Iraq is nothing new. We've been there, done that, succeeded -- before.

Congressman Billybob

Latest article, now up FR, "Sixteen Little Words."

49 posted on 07/25/2003 7:33:26 AM PDT by Congressman Billybob ("Don't just stand there. Run for Congress." www.ArmorforCongress.com)
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To: Itzlzha

What is with these historical revisionists that REFUSE to understand that NAZI means National Socialist!!!

Exactly. I love to see the reaction from some of my liberal aquaintences when I point that out. (Usually after they have accused a Republican of being a Nazi.) The libs go crazy. It's really funny to watch their deranged denial.

I also point out that Hitler and Stalin signed a pact in which much of the wording stated how similar their governments were.

Of course, Hitler betrayed and attacked Russia and Russia had to rely heavily on the evil capitalist Allies for money, arms, supplies and support. Without the US/British help, the USSR would have fallen to Hitler and Japan according to most military historians. Until the Germans invaded the Motherland and rallied around their leaders in self-defense, the Russian economy was in a shambles and Stalin and his thugs were extremely unpopular due to the murderous purges and mismanagement of the 1930's.

What most people also don't know is that, according to some documents found in the former USSR archives, Stalin also had hopes of invading and/or undermining Germany eventually and adding it to it's "purer" socialist empire. No honor amongst thieves...

50 posted on 07/25/2003 8:16:03 AM PDT by demnomo
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