'GIANT SUCKING SOUND' OF LOST JOBS GETS LOUDER

The American Reporter ^ | July 25, 2003 | Randolph T. Holhut

[RockyMtnMan]

I am for FAIR trade not FREE trade. If we are going to trade our high earning jobs for low paying ones we should get used to a dramatically lower standard of living.

The Democrats will be very happy with this new arrangement. They will finally get true class seperation once the middle class is gone. You'll either be on the government dole or you'll be part of the elite class.

Here's a nice quote:

Andrea Brierce, managing director of the consulting firm A.T. Kearney, told Fortune. "Any function that does not require face-to-face contact is now perceived as a candidate for offshore relocation."

Who does that leave? I'm not sure myself since all the face-to-face stuff is done by cheap immigrant labor.

[1rudeboy]

If you think that a basic principle of capitalism is predatory tax-behavior by governments that themselves are the epitome of inefficiency, then you have some serious misconceptions. And I mean serious.

[RockyMtnMan]

You want me to compare interstate trade with international trade between two different governmental systems?

[NYC Republican]

Ping for later comment

[FreedomNotSafety]

"People need to make stuff in order to sell stuff in order to have money to buy stuff"

I assume you mean physical goods as oppossed to just services. Ha s a nice ring but services count too. I have a machine built in the 60's retooled. We thru away tons of pnuematics, gears, and levers replacing them with a little PLC (a small computer based controller) and some small motors. Then we paid a programmer to make it all work. We probably replaced a years worth of machine building (or "stuff")and replaced it with a days worth the "services" (not "stuff"). The programmer is not considered to be in manufacturing. Bottom line? That giant sucking sound is good old yankee ingenuity figuring out how to make it better, faster, and cheaper!

[SauronOfMordor]

Just an hour ago when I pulled up to the speaker box at McDonalds to order a Big Mac and fries, the person taking my order was actually in Tiawan and relayed the order to the fry cook via computer. That really burned me up. But at least the guy in Taiwan spoke English, unlike the previous employees here.

Somehow I have difficulty believing you, but even if not true, it's not far off. It should not be that difficult to further automate places like McDonalds.

Lots of service jobs can be offshored. For example, take security. You have a lot of people monitoring security cameras. Make it a webcam, transmit over a secure connection, and somebody in the Phillipines can watch for suspicious characters and hit the button to notify police

[RockyMtnMan]

The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

Are you talking about capitalism as a concept or as it is in practice? Taxes are neccessary for basic functions of the government (defense, provide a competitve marketplace, etc) the rest should go. Unfortunately there is no way to eliminate all the government waste to make us competitive again.

In the meantime we have to rely on tariffs to make markets competitive for the general welfare of the nation.

[eno_]

It's equally frightening for people who still believe that a college degree or senior executive experience is protection against long-term unemployment.

Horror! They might actually have to get educated, instead of drinking. Or choose a real profession instead of a trade that is barely skilled dressed up as a profession.

[Tokhtamish]

To a very small degree they went to Tennesee and North Carolina (is Smyrna the Akron of 50 years ago ?). Mostly they went overseas.

When manufacturing went overseas, more was lost than just careers. And in general stable low skill employment. When a society cannot offer stable futures to non-college bound young males, it cannot control them. If it cannot make it worth their while to follow the rules, they will not.

Sure, go ahead. Embrace the 'progress' of outsourcing our manufacturing base. Then get used to the Clockwork Orange world of South Central LA for everyone. Then again, isn't it already starting ? Do you think Eminem came from a vaccuum ? The diffusion of gangbanger manners and mores among young white males who see no future for themselves ?

[SauronOfMordor]

The professionals who have lost their jobs are going to have to figure out a way to make their money in healthcare or home construction/remodeling. This is where the jobs will be as we baby boomers age.

One problem with healthcare: there's money to pay for it because we have an affluent middle-class. Without that, oldsters on Medicare will not get healthcare

[Alberta's Child]

Apocryphal story from the Great Depression . . .

A high-profile diplomat from the Soviet Union visited New York in the 1930s. He was met at Idlewild Airport (now JFK International Airport) by New York City mayor Fiorello LaGuardia and an entourage of city dignitaries. While leaving the airport in the back of a car with the mayor, he noticed a large group of men shoveling snow on one of the airport runways.

"Why are these men shoveling snow here?" he asked through an interpreter, "I would have thought that here in the U.S. you would do things in a more automated fashion."

LaGuardia told him that the unemployment rate in New York was very high during the Depression, and proudly pointed out that the city had been able to provide 2,000 jobs for men at the airport by having them shovel snow instead of using snow plows.

"That's interesting," the Russian answered, "But if you were to give them all spoons instead of shovels, you could probably hire 100,000 more."

[ninenot]

Also please recall that Clinton's Commerce Department seriously fudged (upward) GNP numbers during the last 14 months of his term to try to get AlGore elected.

But these fudges have consequences: based on increasing GNP, some companies invested in more plant/equipment to meet the foreseen needs.

Since it was all smoke/mirrors, there's a bit of overcapacity out there--not to mention the debt incurred to build same. So debt repayment and much less ROA result.

[RockyMtnMan]

I believe that statement was saying that those that already have a degree and lots of industry experience are not immune to the trend.

[Alberta's Child]

You want me to compare interstate trade with international trade between two different governmental systems?

If you can't do it, then at least explain why one case is not the same as the other. Granted, a company that moves from the U.S. to Malaysia is making a greater leap than a company that moves from New York to North Carolina, but the underlying economic principles that drive such a move are the same.

BTW, many of these moves that were made within the United States were made precisely because there were "different governmental systems" in the two places.

[Poohbah]

So you're saying we need to provide government-mandated make-work for the sick, lame, lazy, stupid, and crazy?

[Alberta's Child]

When manufacturing went overseas, more was lost than just careers. And in general stable low skill employment. When a society cannot offer stable futures to non-college bound young males, it cannot control them. If it cannot make it worth their while to follow the rules, they will not.

I have some news for you. With the exception of a brief period of time during the post-WWII years, there was never such a thing as a "low-skill career" in this country. Before that, almost all of what we now know as "low-skill labor" was done by slaves in the South, Chinese coolies in the West, Irish immigrants in the coal mines of Pennsylvania, Eastern European sweatshop workers in the Northeast, etc.

[ninenot]

Labor is the main cost that drives the price of everything

Careful, there.

There are two kinds of "labor:" direct and indirect.

Direct labor is actual paid labor going specifically to manufacture a product.

Indirect labor is supervision, administration, and a few other categories.

DIRECT labor costs on most manufactured goods are NOT a big % of the product's cost---my offhand guess is not more than 35% in general terms.

If one digs deep enough, it's not really labor cost, although that's a part of the flight to China.

It's REGULATORY cost, in combination with labor. China don't have no EPA, EEOC, IRS Code, or FLSA--not to mention health insurance, which is a whole nother set of regulated goodies.

[RockyMtnMan]

Simple, in one scenerio wealth is generated in a foreign country (ie labor) in the other all the money stays within our economy (purchases, taxes, etc). The corporation saves a ton of dough but then reinvests its money in new labor in the foriegn land (again adding nothing to the local ecomomy but adding to their bottom line). In the unlikely instance they lower their prices, got to move those widgets, they'll find it harder to sell because the general populations buying power has diminished.

[ninenot]

"The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money."

Nice quote.

Applies here--where do you think the Corporate Income Tax goes? (But they don't have one of those in China...)

[eno_]

A degree is not an education.

We are awash in self-esteem cases with degrees from third tier colleges in subjects like Urban Studies. And tech support is not a profession. How suprised am I to find that Sriram in Bangalore can be just as useless as Jerome in Georgia as far as not being able to answer my Windows tech support questions?