Cartoonist Draws Attention (Ramirez explains cartoon with gun being pointed at Bush)

WNYC ^ | July 25, 2003 | Gladstone & Ramirez interview

[FairOpinion]

BROOKE GLADSTONE: We're back with On the Media. I'm Brooke Gladstone.

BOB GARFIELD: And I'm Bob Garfield. In 1969, Groucho Marx told a magazine reporter that, quote, "The only hope this country has is in Nixon's assassination." Paul Krassner, the publisher of the underground magazine The Realist, heard about his friend's comment impishly dashed off a letter to the Justice Department. The Feds had recently arrested Black Panther leader David Hilliard for threatening Nixon during a speech, and Krassner wanted to know what the government was going to do about Groucho. The U.S. attorney responded that Groucho's remarks did not constitute a true threat because he was an "alleged" comedian, and not "the leader of an organization which advocates killing people and overthrowing the government."

BROOKE GLADSTONE: That was then, and this is now. No longer, it seems, can those around the President, well, take a joke. On Monday the truth was driven home for Michael Ramirez, an editorial cartoonist at the Los Angeles Times. His cartoon from the previous day portrayed President Bush with a gun to his head and it caught the attention of the Secret Service. Michael, welcome to OTM.

MICHAEL RAMIREZ: Well thanks!

BROOKE GLADSTONE: So tell me about the cartoon that you drew.

MICHAEL RAMIREZ: Well the cartoon was a rehash of a Pulitzer Prize-winning photo from 1968 showing the South Vietnamese Police Chief executing a VC spy, and I thought it was appropriate because I was drawing a parallel between the politization of the Vietnam War and the current politization that's surrounding the Iraq war related to the Niger uranium story.

BROOKE GLADSTONE: Now the cartoon is set in a street in Iraq, and the, the key detail here is that the executioner character, which is labeled "Politics," is holding a gun to the head of President Bush.

MICHAEL RAMIREZ: Right. Metaphorically I was saying that there are people currently engaged in the political assassination of our president. And so the cartoon is really just a literal interpretation of that metaphor.

BROOKE GLADSTONE: And so, the cartoon ran in last Sunday's paper--

MICHAEL RAMIREZ: Right.

BROOKE GLADSTONE: -- what happened when you got into work on Monday?

MICHAEL RAMIREZ: Well John Ashcroft was sitting in my office. [LAUGHTER] Now I have to screen all my cartoons through him. [LAUGHS]

BROOKE GLADSTONE: No, really.

MICHAEL RAMIREZ: Oh. Oh -- really. Well, you know, it was kind of strange. The firestorm began actually with Matt Drudge's report on Sunday evening which was a little-- interesting because he had the headline on his report that said that I was being investigated by the Secret Service. And I really wasn't contacted by the Secret Service until the next morning at 10:30.

BROOKE GLADSTONE: Well, that is interesting!

MICHAEL RAMIREZ: Yeah!

BROOKE GLADSTONE: Sounds like he has a line in to the Secret Service.

MICHAEL RAMIREZ: I think Matt Drudge is with the Secret Service.

BROOKE GLADSTONE: Tell me your reaction when you heard that the Secret Service was interested in speaking to you.

MICHAEL RAMIREZ: Well you know I got this call from this gentleman, and actually he was very nice, but it was so casual and laid back -- I really assumed it was a crank call! He said-- "I'd like to meet with you somewhere and talk to you. I'm with the Secret Service." And I said "Well, [LAUGHS] y--yeah-- uh, well you can meet me here at the paper. How do I know you're with the Secret Service?" And he said "Well, I've got a black suit and black sunglasses and credentials!" [LAUGHTER] And so I was kind of laughing about it, and I said well sure, come on down and, and make sure you bring your credentials. And-- you know, sure enough, half an hour later, security called my editor and said the Secret Service is here, and at that point, because of precedence and the freedom of the press, legal counsel intervened. So I didn't actually speak to him except for when he initially called me.

BROOKE GLADSTONE: Now threatening the president is against federal law, and it's the Secret Service's job to protect the president against potential threats. Do you think that Bush's security detail should have felt threatened by your cartoon?

MICHAEL RAMIREZ: No, I think that this is a pretty famous image, and I think the use of the metaphor -especially in light of the fact that it really is a cartoon that favors him and his administration --

BROOKE GLADSTONE: Ah, come on! Even if it hadn't! I mean you've been drawing cartoons for 19 years. Have any of your cartoons ever attracted this much attention?

MICHAEL RAMIREZ: Well, you know, I have a tendency to-- drive the cartoons to the edge of the envelope, and I've never been investigated by the Secret Service. But you know what? Cartoons have to be controversial. I mean we want a forum that will be the catalyst for thought, so we use whatever device we can, and any sort of intimidation that goes on is not a good thing.

BROOKE GLADSTONE: Now the Secret Service says that the inquiry was routine, but do you think there's any chance that this would have happened 10 or 20 years ago or 5 years ago or even 3 years ago?

MICHAEL RAMIREZ: Sure, I think 9/11 really has heightened our sense of awareness concerning everything. Clearly they used bad judgment in this circumstance. In fact it makes me wonder about the intelligence in our intelligence services.

BROOKE GLADSTONE: So are you planning any cartoons about the Secret Service?

MICHAEL RAMIREZ: Well, Brooke -- as a matter of fact I am! I'm going to be doing a cartoon where I take the exact same image that caused this controversy, and I'm replacing the South Vietnam police chief with a gigantic Howitzer labeled "Secret Service," and I'm going to have me instead of the president, and I have a thought bubble which reads: "Over-reacting a little bit, aren't you?" [LAUGHTER]

BROOKE GLADSTONE: Michael Ramirez, thank you very much.

MICHAEL RAMIREZ: Brooke, thanks for having me on.

BROOKE GLADSTONE: Michael Ramirez is an editorial cartoonist for the Los Angeles Times.

[FairOpinion]

"MICHAEL RAMIREZ: Well the cartoon was a rehash of a Pulitzer Prize-winning photo from 1968 showing the South Vietnamese Police Chief executing a VC spy, and I thought it was appropriate because I was drawing a parallel between the politization of the Vietnam War and the current politization that's surrounding the Iraq war related to the Niger uranium story."

I didn't know about the Vietnam photo and I guess neither did a lot of other people.

I think Ramirez should have stopped and thought about it, then he probably would have realized that while the message of the cartoon is right, but the actual cartoon was inappropriate.

Ramirez is very pro-Bush.

[RaceBannon]

It is more than a photo, it is also film, live

It was not a spy, but a commie that had just killed a family and was caught during TET

The film was shown unedited on TV back then, I saw it as a child, and while he may be saying this is a political asassination cartoon, it is in really poor taste, and makes it look like the opposite of what he says it means.

It looks like a threat, not a statement.

[Cold Heat]

Clearly they used bad judgment in this circumstance. In fact it makes me wonder about the intelligence in our intelligence services.

No they didn't! That was just a warning Michael.

[gcruse]

I didn't know about the Vietnam photo and I guess neither did a lot of other people.

Anyone of age during the Vietnam war should have recognized that.  
The rest of you get a bye. :)

[Dat]

What is it with you third party types and homo-erotic imagery? You guys must hang around interesting people, to say the least.

[Moonmad27]

When I heard that Michael Ramirez - of all people - was in the middle of this uproar, my first thought was "he's the only sane (non-rabid-liberal) person in the LA Times!!!!" His cartoons, as you say, have been on GWB's side, often to the point where I can't believe the Times prints them, and for him to get in trouble was ironic indeed. I can see why he did, on the face of it. Ramirez probably should have picked a different visual metaphor to make the point that GWB's enemies will stop at nothing, but he wouldn't have gotten nationwide coverage if he had drawn it differently.

[Oschisms]

If the gun was labeled "Politics" and the shooter was labeled "Democrats," the cartoon would have been so much clearer.

[Ernest_at_the_Beach]

The editors would not have allowed that!

Some of us understood the cartoon fairly quickly!

[Almondjoy]

Your opinion.. realize that and move on.

[exit82]

I want ot know how the Secret Service was turned away from the object of their intent. Like ordinary citizens can tell the Secret Service to get lost.

They should have put yellow tape around the building until they got their face to face.

Ramirez should have had more sense than to publish this cartoon. My first thought was that the Secret Service better get to the bottom of this. People on this forum have gotten visits from them for much less.

[L.N. Smithee]

For the life of me, I don't understand why the routine caricatures of Bush have that exaggerated dipping lip.

[Happy2BMe]

"If the gun was labeled "Politics" and the shooter was labeled "Democrats," the cartoon would have been so much clearer."

Precisely!

As it appears in it's current form, the cartoon draws the immediate shagrin and delight of all Democrats (and Islamic terrorists).

[Happy2BMe]

"For the life of me, I don't understand why the routine caricatures of Bush have that exaggerated dipping lip."

If Ramirez is pro-Bush, you certainly wouldn't prove it by this cartoon - nor his caricature of Dubya.

The "dipping lip" personna magnifies the "too conservative and too much of a prick" image the Dems love to project (and have other believe) about President Bush.

Thank you for pointing that out!

[Lee'sGhost]

"The film was shown unedited on TV back then. . ."

Actually, it was edited. It was very subtle, but if you recall, the only sound on the film was that of the pistol being fired. They edited out all other sounds for, I think they said later, "dramatic effect." It was sort of like the news magazine that darkened OJ's beard on their cover shot. More lib press manipulation.

[RaceBannon]

sometimes you sound like a nut...

[RaceBannon]

I never heard any sound that I remember, not back then or in the replays in video I see of it now.