Posted on 07/30/2003 8:56:08 AM PDT by I_dmc
A Woman and a Man are both involved in a car accident. Neither are hurt, but their cars are smashed up. After they crawl out of their cars, the woman says "Our cars are completely demolished, yet neither of us are hurt! This must be a sign from God!" The man replied; "Oh yes, I completely agree with you. This must be some sort of sign!"
The woman continued; "And look, here's another miracle. My car is completely smashed, yet this bottle didn't even break! How about a drink to celebrate our good fortune?" The man nods and drinks half the bottle, then passes it back to her. The woman simply puts the cap back on, and hands it back to the man. "Aren't you going to have a drink?" Asked the man.
To which the woman replies; "No thanks. I think I'll just wait for the cops to show up!"
: )
Oh man! That is such a riot! You in one breath state that I don't take the Bible for what it states, and then in light of passages such as Mark 16:16 totally disregard a BLATANT commandment! Need I remind you that not all who cry "Lord, Lord" will be saved? Only those that DO what God wants. If anything is ridiculous, it's the notion that faith "only" saves. That doctrine essentially teaches that as long as a person has faith in Jesus Christ, they can practice the following, and still make it to heaven:
Lie
Covet
Fornicate
Blaspheme
Not repent
Murder
Steal
Adulterate
And no, it's not symantics, it's relevent to our salvation. Look at Matt. 25:41-46... they were condemned to hell because their faith did not include action (works). It's not symantical. Faith "only" is a dangerous, dangerous doctrine because it leaves out other crucial aspects that we must do for salvation such as repentence. Again, faith "only" claims that a person needs "only" to believe in Jesus, and that's all they need. They don't have to repent of their sinful ways. They can continue living a life of sin (disobedience to God) and still make it to heaven as long as they have faith. Now that's an absurd doctrine, but that's what faith "only" teaches. If you throw in ANY other condition for salvation, such as repentance, then faith "only" is defeated, for they are two seperate things.
Revelation 2:5 (NKJ) 5) Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from it's place - unless you repent.
Acts 8:36-39 (NKJ) 36) Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, "See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?" 37) Then Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." and he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God." 38) So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him. 39) Now when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught Philip away, so that the eunuch saw him no more; and he went on his way rejoicing.
John 6: 28-29 (NKJ) 28) Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?" 29) Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."
Uh... no. See Acts 2:38. While baptism is symbolic of Christ death, burial, and ressurection, it is commanded by God for us to do so that our sins can be washed away. For by partaking in baptism, we ourselves are crucifying our man of sin, thus, being FREE from sin (Rom. 6:7). It is this act that makes us dead to sin, but ALIVE to God (Rom. 6:11). So upon obeying the command of baptism, our sins our forgiven (Acts 2:38). That is how the blood of Jesus cleanses our sins, because we have obeyed what Christ commanded to do for the remission of sins -- Baptism!
People were baptized immediately after believing. They didn't wait. Baptism is part of the conversion process. After one has crucified our man of sin, thus becoming alive to God, we have been converted, and are then in a state of salvation.
"Faith in Christ incorporates repentance; To TURN from one's sinful ways and to follow Christ requires repentance".
If you throw in ANY other condition for salvation, such as repentance, then faith "only" is defeated, for they are two seperate things. Yes, water baptism is a part of the plan of salvation. Baptism is a response to faith, just as repentance is a response to faith. Without repentance and baptism, which is brought on by the conviction of the Holy Spirit and the faith in Christ, faith is useless. It is very possible to believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and yet one wouldn't necessarily give up his or her sinful lifestyle. To follow Christ means that you not only believe in Him, but become obedient to Him as well, thus giving up your sinful ways.
Bottom Line: If you have rejected the commandment to be baptized, it is just the same as having rejected the call to repent. Pretty simple.
This argument is surely one of the oldest (and less weighty) arguments among the "Faith Only"/Charismatic/Holy Roller crowd. Incidentally, how do you KNOW he wasn't baptized?? How do you KNOW he didn't hear one of Jesus' sermons and ran off to be baptized?
Conversation between God and "Try One":
God: Why did you not heed my commandment to be baptized for the remission of your sins? Did you not hear Me when I said to be born again with water AND the Spirit?
Try Again: But...but..but...the thief on the cross!!! He wasn't baptized, and yet you saved him!
God: And just who nailed YOU to a cross??
"Back to Eph. 2: 8,9: " For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."
1 John 2:3-4 (MKJV)
3) And by this we know that we have known Him, if we keep His commandments.
4) He who says, I have known Him, and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
Now, this clearly shows how we know whether or not we know Christ - if we keep His commandments. This passage makes it quite clear that people who don't keep His commandments are liars, and the truth is NOT in them. Liars won't be in Heaven. There is no way that a person can make it to heaven by faith only, for if they have faith only, and don't keep his commandments, they are liars and have a dead faith (James 2).
Matt. 25: 41-46 (MKJV)
41) Then He also shall say to those on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, into everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels.
42) For I was hungry, and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty, and you gave Me no drink;
43) I was a stranger and you did not take Me in; I was naked, and you did not clothe Me; I was sick, and in prison, and you did not visit me.
44) Then they will also answer Him, saying, Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to You?
45) Then He shall answer them, saying, Truly I say to you, Inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.
46) And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.
It's quite clear that Christ sent these people to Hell for their lack of good works. The root of the problem is their faith - it didn't include obedience to Chist's commandments, which in this case, was to love one another. If they truly loved one another, they would have administered to those people with good works on not been cast into hell. Faith produces good works, because we have faith in Him and we love Him. But the Bible makes it quite clear that if you love Chrsit, then He expects you to keep His commandments (John 14:15), and that he who claims to know Christ and does not keep His commandments are liars, and the truth is not in them (1 John 2:3-4). This goes hand in hand with what the apostle James speaks of in chapter 2 - that faith without works is dead. Faith only doesn't cut the mustard.
Yes, I have. Re-read it.
In all other religions Salvation is based on Man's Good Works --- Man getting to Heaven on his own might.
I assume you mean by other "religions", those religions that reject Christ..Buddhism, Islam, etc etc. That is not what we are discussing. We are discussing baptism..which is a commandment of Jesus himself. All of the apostles were baptised. Jesus was baptized. All of those at Ephesus, Corinth, etc etc...there are no unbaptized Christians in the NT. And you STILL have not accounted for the fact that you claimed that the thief on the cross wasn't baptized, when in fact you dont KNOW whether he was or wasnt.
The Big Question: If you died tonight do you know that you have Salvation? I can unequivocally say, yes, I will be in Heaven because of my Faith in Christ. And, yes, I was Baptized, but that had nothing to do with it. If one had to rely on one's Good Works, how would one ever know that one did enough Good Works to meet God's requirements?
Loving people by itself will not get you to heaven. That is correct. Baptism by itself will not get you to heaven, and that too is correct. But both of those things are required, along with other things.
After all, if you don't love people, which is said by Jesus to be the second greatest commandment, do you really think that you will make it to heaven? And when Jesus says "He who believes and is baptized will be saved", do you really think that omitting baptism out of that verse saves you, when it's inseperately joined to belief by the word "and"? We are to obey **ALL** of Jesus commands unconditionally. Look at what the scriptures says about obedience:
Romans 2:6-9
6) who "will render to each one according to his deeds."
7) eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
8) but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness-indignation and wrath,
9) tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;
Hebrews 5:9
9) And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him.
1 John 3:24
24) Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
Revelation 22:14
14) Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and my enter through the gates into the city.
It should be obvious from these verses that the only way we will make it to heaven is if we obey His commandments. Bearing this in mind, even you can agree that baptism was commanded by Jesus, yes? If we obey His commandments, then what happens? We are saved. According to Hebrews 5:9, Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. If you don't obey Him, is He the author of eternal salvation to that person? No.
17) "For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect."
Paul is simply saying that baptism is not his main focus, not that baptism isn't necessary. Paul's main focus was to preach the word of God. Notice, however, that everybody spoken about in these verses were indeed baptized. It's just too bad that these people were making a big deal about who baptized them, or else Paul would have no need to rebuke them about this. Why would Paul preach that baptism isn't necessary when it was commanded by Jesus in Matthew 28:19,20?
If God saves people based on Good Works then where are we? Does God grade on the curve. Is 70 passing, such that if one gets a 70, he goes to Heaven, if a 69, he goes to Hell? This kind of Salvation is like a box of Cracker Jacks, one does not know what prize he will get at the end of the road.
9) "And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him."
It clearly states that He is the author of salvation to who? All who obey Him. Where do you think that leaves the people that don't obey Him? I'll spell it out just so there's no confusion: HELL.
So again, who are you to say that baptism is not necessary, when the Lord has commanded it? Answer that question please.
My Salvation is locked in stone!
Judas thought the same, I am certain. When James says that faith without works is dead, I'm going to believe him over you that says faith only will save me. Call me crazy.
There many verses in the Bible that speak relevant things about our salvation. Things like (paraphrasing here) "Unless you are born of water and Spirit you will not enter the kingdom of God", "unless you repent you will all perish", "He who believes and is baptized will be saved", "It is by grace you have been saved", "we are justified by faith".
Everyone of those pertains to our salvation, so which one is correct, because they all state something different? The simple answer is ALL of them, NOT just one (faith). What kind of faith do you think Romans 5:1 is talking about? Faith without works? Surely not, because James, who is just as inspired as Paul, said that faith without works is dead. No amount of spin doctering or perverting of the scriptures will change that simple fact.
*Sigh*
The thief on the Cross --- Right, one does not know for sure if he (the one who Believed at the end and received Salvation) was Baptized before getting into trouble with the Law. But most theologians that I talk to say the guy was probably "lost as a goose"
Another riot! By "theologians", I assume you mean those that have Ph.D after their name??? It is these same Ph.D's that are "voting" on whether or not to ordain homo bishops in the Episcopal church! What is wrong with "speaking where the Bible speaks" and "being silent where it is silent"?
Again, why did Christ die on the Cross if all these other things are required for Salvation. The Cross means nothing then! Jesus went through all that suffering for no good reason!
It is more than astonishing, it is AMAZING, how some people (i.e. YOU) will spend nearly a lifetime trying to "prove" that plain statements of the Bible don't really mean what they say!
Observe:
Acts 16:31 says, "BELIEVE in the Lord Jesus and you will be SAVED."
Do you believe that the above statement teaches that BELIEVING in Jesus is necessary to be saved? You say, "Yes." Why? Because it is a plain statement of truth given by inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
2 Cor. 7:10 says, "Godly sorrow brings REPENTANCE that leads to SALVATION."
Do you believe that the above statement teaches that REPENTANCE is necessary to be saved? You say, "Yes." Why? Because it is a plain statement of truth given by inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
Rom. 10:10 says, "It is with the mouth that you CONFESS and are SAVED."
Do you believe the above statement teaches that CONFESSION is necessary to be saved? You say, "Yes." Why? Because it is a plain statement of truth given by inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
1 Pet. 3:21 says, "BAPTISM also now SAVES you."
Do you believe the above statement teaches that BAPTISM is necessary to be saved? You say, "No." Why? You tell me!
(A) Because it doesn't fit what I was taught
(B) Because I only choose to believe the first 3, not the 4th one
(C) Because baptism is a "work" and we're not saved by works
(D) Because I know that the verse plainly says that baptism saves us, but I've been taught by Pastor so-and-so that baptism does NOT save us. So... even though the scriptures say plainly that "baptism also now saves you," well, that's different from those other 3 you put up there before it. Don't ask me why, I just know it is. I'm going to have to go along with my pastor, after all, he's such a good man and has such a kind, sincere way about him. Everyone's known and loved him for so many, many years. Now how can you NOT believe someone like that if he says baptism is not necessary to be saved. No sir, I'll put my trust in Pastor so-and-so, rather in what the Bible says!
Tell me something, "Try One", how long will it be before you say that there is nothing anti-Christian about a homosexual minister of God??
Whew..for a minute there I was beginning to think that you were unsaved AND an advocator of gay priests. Glad I was wrong, although being unsaved is still probably still in the red zone.
Water can't Save you, but Baptism with water is the vivid SYMBOL of the changed life of one who has a conscience at peace with God through faith in Christ.THIS is your reply??
*Sigh*
In any event, you never did answer my question regarding repenting, nor half a dozen other things regarding the salvation process. If I am wrong, then no harm no foul. My salvation is still intact. If on the other hand, YOU are wrong about baptism..its you who lose.
It really does pay to read my posts in their entirety. I never said that baptism alone was sufficient for salvation. And you never answered MY inquiry..namely whether or not repentence was necessary. You answer my question, and I will do the same.
"I sleep like a baby every night knowing where I'm going!"
So do Mormons and Jehovahs Witnesses!
Are Mormons saved? They believe the Bible is in error. And JHs? They don't believe Jesus is God. What about other groups? DO you think that simply because you BEEEEEELIEVE...that that is sufficient? That you can do whatever the hail mary you want and still enter Heaven? No sir. THAT, is blasphemy.
Don't repent. Don't get baptized. Don't change. Keep sinning all you want. As long as you believe, you can get as drunk as you want, shoot up as many drugs as you want, and engage in as much adultery as you want. Just BEEEEEELIEVE!
The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.
Says who? You? And what of those verses that seperate repenting from belief? Repenting is DOING something. As is being baptized, confessing that Jesus is Lord, and changing one's evil ways.
But I also believe that once Saved always Saved.
You are more lost than I originally thought. Don't tell me..lemme guess. You also "speak in tongues"?
Not really, these cults work like a beaver every day trying to get to Heaven. They do not recognize Jesus Christ's Saving Grace. It's all good works for them and they never know where they stand!
And you don't consider your own twisted logic to be slightly cult-oriented? Such as rolling on the floor uttering gibberish, snake handling, faith healings (i.e. Benny Hinn), etc? You are indistinguishable from these groups in that you do not DO what Christ wants.
I know many Christians who have done that --- fallen off the Christian Wagon so to speak. I believe they are still Saved (if they were to begin with) but they are in serious trouble with God now and once they get to Heaven. They will not receive the Blessings/Rewards now or in eternity.
Right. And pigs fly.
So what are these "Blessings/Rewards"? Once saved always saved is a corrupt doctrine..and not scripturally based. Saul, for example, wasn't saved by an experience or even a personal encounter with God Himself. Neither was he saved at the point of extreme repentance or sincere prayer. Here is a man who truly believed that Jesus was the Lord, he didn't know this by faith-he knew it by sight! And yet, his sins were not forgiven until he met all the conditions for salvation, including baptism. It does seem that you have been heavily bombarded with denominationalism, which is evident in your lack of scriptural knowledge (and applicability).
Neither do I. You can never "do enough" to get saved. But you DO have to exercise obediance to Him, otherwise you are just another run-of-the-mill lukewarm CINO (Christian in Name Only).
Us Southern Baptists are not Benny Hinn and we are quite comfortable in knowing the real Gospel Message and what “Christ wants us to do”. Now most of us are NOT able to “do what Christ wants” all the time, but we don’t lose our Salvation when we screw up. We just repent and go on!
Whoa..the truth comes out. The Southern Baptists are a man-made DENOMINATION. But that at least explains your beliefs. And incidentally, I never claimed (as the Catholics do) that baptism is a cure-all.
OK, answer me this. Give me one example in Scripture where Jesus or His Disciples “Saved” someone more than once. If we lose our Salvation every day then we must have to get “Re-Saved” every day. Where is that done?
First off, one needs to "repent" when they fall off the wagon, not get "re-baptized". There are no indications whereby one needs to get baptized twice, unless it was perhaps performed as a baby (i.e. Catholicism...another cult), or unless they didn't choose to engage in it of their own accord (i.e. pressured or forced to). Christians in the 1st Century were baptized once, not many times, as you seem to accuse me of advocating. Try again.
Obedience to God's commandments is part of the salvic process. This means obedience to all commandments, to the best of your capacity, as I have been saying all along. Perfect obedience is never going to happen - but that's not what we're asked to do. On the other hand, blatant and deliberate refusal to obey Divine commandments (which is what you keep preaching), is certainly going to earn you the wages of sin. You're a classic example of someone who's using the Bible to justify living as they please. It's disgusting. Christ was emphasizing that those who do not have a covenant relationship with him are without hope. Look at the context. Those "in Christ" are those who have been baptized into Christ, Paul tells us. Those who "remain in him" are those who obey his commandments'.
James says, "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified and not by faith only" James 2:24. The Greek word is "dikiioo" and is also translated in one place as "freed". It is certainly not "by works of our own doing (Titus 3:5) that we are saved but by the mercy of God. We can't save ourselves.
God is the justifer. Justification is to be made free. Salvation frees us from sin (1 Peter 1:22-23). It grants us the potential for eternal life; "But now being made free from sin and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto sanctification, and the end eternal life." Romans 6:22
In view of the whole matter of justification and salvation I would be hard pressed to prove they were not synonymous. If you have something to add, say on.
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