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Republican Breakup?
PhxNews ^ | Joe Duarte

Posted on 07/30/2003 11:25:27 AM PDT by hsmomx3

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To: hsmomx3
BARF ALERT!!
101 posted on 07/30/2003 2:44:35 PM PDT by johnfl61
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To: CyberCowboy777
I wrote Reinventing Libertaria back in May.  It addresses what might be the next step, and what stands in the way.
102 posted on 07/30/2003 2:45:37 PM PDT by gcruse (http://gcruse.blogspot.com/)
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To: gcruse
I will read it.
103 posted on 07/30/2003 2:53:49 PM PDT by CyberCowboy777 (They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters.)
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To: You Dirty Rats
In many areas of the country, a Republican can only be elected if they are pro-abortion. I know that outrages some people on this forum, but the alternative would be a pro-abortion 'Rat.

Wow...what you say is right on the mark. I live in a state where being anti-abortion is akin to being an Ayatollah (maybe worse!). No Republican could be elected statewide unless they were pro-abortion [rights, they call it], and very few get elected anyway.

We have often failed to be as ruthless and mercenary as RATS, supporting people we don't like and swallowing positions we don't like, in order to get people elected...to sneak our candidates in. Some of that is because of an admirable quality: while RATS are almost always mercenary and self-serving at the core, we tend to believe in principles. The down-side of that is that a majority of the population as a whole either disagrees with those principles or simply doesn't care about anything like "principles". That's especially the case in more urbanized, high population geographic settings.

To say that there are fissures in the Republican party is absolutely true (though this guy mis-identifies them by the bundle). There are as many, maybe more, fissures in the RAT party. But the fissures don't mean as much to the RATS, because they have identified their enemy and nearly always keep their eye on that enemy.

There are probably only about a third of the RATS who really go nuts over Hillary...but were she to jump in to the race the entire party would unite like a whirling dervish behind her. Why? They want to win and they hate their enemy more than any internal divisions they might have.

104 posted on 07/30/2003 2:54:34 PM PDT by Scott from the Left Coast
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To: hsmomx3; DittoJed2; FreeLibertarian; CyberCowboy777; My2Cents; anniegetyourgun; hobbes1; ...
There's an awful lot of hue and cry over this article when it's essentially a very insightful analysis. I guess it rings a little too true for some people's liking.
105 posted on 07/30/2003 3:04:16 PM PDT by tdadams
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To: CyberCowboy777
This is a joke. Anyone who views the Christian right this way is either brain dead or has an agenda.

As a former Christian right-er, I'd say that's pretty dead on, except maybe the jailing women for abortion part. But even so, I don't doubt there are some out there who would jail a woman for having an abortion.

106 posted on 07/30/2003 3:07:23 PM PDT by tdadams
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To: tdadams
As a current Christian Right-er I can say that the piece taken as a whole is wrong about both the intentions and ideologies of Christian Conservatives I know.

I do not think anyone can deny my credentials as a Christian Right-er or those of my family and friends and this is a simple and poorly done divide and conquer piece.
107 posted on 07/30/2003 3:14:23 PM PDT by CyberCowboy777 (They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters.)
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To: Dane
The one true and blue "Libertarian" in Congress, Ron Paul, put up for a vote to get the US out of the UN. Fine the Republic in action, but yet that same congressman, sided with the liberal democrats (who are big UN supporters)and the UN in saying that the US and the UK should have not removed saddam from power. JMO, but can anybody say schizophrenia.

I've noticed you have the keen ability of appearing to be a simpleton. At least I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming it's feigned.

Ron Paul would only seem schizophrenic to someone who is unfamiliar with the concept of adhering to consistent principles, regardless or who may be allied or opposed with those principles in any given case.

108 posted on 07/30/2003 3:15:00 PM PDT by tdadams
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To: CyberCowboy777
G_d was the first and loudest proponent of Liberty, Freedom and Personal Responsibility.

"Slaves, obey your masters" - Ephesians 6:5.

Well, I guess it's all a matter of interpretation.

109 posted on 07/30/2003 3:18:12 PM PDT by tdadams
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To: tdadams
Ron Paul is not schizophrenic and I have defended him more than once.

He was wrong on Iraq.

110 posted on 07/30/2003 3:18:26 PM PDT by CyberCowboy777 (They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters.)
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To: tdadams
"Servents, obey your masters" - Ephesians 6:5.

Not really.
111 posted on 07/30/2003 3:20:40 PM PDT by CyberCowboy777 (They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters.)
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Comment #112 Removed by Moderator

To: tdadams
Have you ever read what G_d told Samuel to tell the Israelites when they demanded a King "like the other nations"?

Sounds a little like our founding fathers....
113 posted on 07/30/2003 3:24:54 PM PDT by CyberCowboy777 (They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters.)
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To: luckydevi
True.

But he purposely use those words in that fashion.

There is a place for the right kind of Civil Government and Reagan knew that.
114 posted on 07/30/2003 3:26:43 PM PDT by CyberCowboy777 (They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters.)
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To: gcruse
This is why I let all the "losertarian" comments roll off my back with good humor, but I'm quick to correct anyone who calls me a Republican.
115 posted on 07/30/2003 3:27:18 PM PDT by tdadams
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To: CyberCowboy777
I agree. And I agree with Ron Paul on most things, but I do think he was wrong on Iraq.

My point was that Dane is disingenuously trying to falsely portray Paul as having some alliance with the UN when their agreement on the issue is merely coincidental.

116 posted on 07/30/2003 3:32:37 PM PDT by tdadams
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To: tdadams
I think I'm with you there. If anything, little 'l', little 'r'.
117 posted on 07/30/2003 3:34:26 PM PDT by gcruse (http://gcruse.blogspot.com/)
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To: CyberCowboy777
LOL! That's a very fine example of exactly what I was talking about. Your Bible might say "servants", but mine says "slaves". Quintessentially a matter of interpretation.
118 posted on 07/30/2003 3:34:30 PM PDT by tdadams
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To: tdadams
Agreed. (except on Iraq)

Just as Dane is broad brushing a person, this writer is broad brushing a group. That is my point.
119 posted on 07/30/2003 3:36:11 PM PDT by CyberCowboy777 (They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters.)
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To: hsmomx3
Good article.

I have always wanted an america that lets me worship as I please, or as I don't. I have never understood the insane desire for a biblical-theocratic america where sometimes ridiculous and irrational belief systems are constantly being codified into law (or at least attempted on some level). They all seem to press for somebody else's (other than mine that is) religious convictions, enforced in the public arena, and upon the public under threat of life, limb or treasure.

The religious nuts who ruined Europe prior to the onset of the dark ages, and who resisted the age of reason, with it's technological and medical brilliance... are all coming to their fullness of time here. They want... a CHRISTIAN nation... instead of a nation of Christians.

It will be our undoing, as a two party system, a nation, and even as individual Christians with conscience.

Having a "born again" president is not enough for some folks. Instead, they want to march the nation by force, through the mississippi and declare us all to be "righteous catholics" or "evangelicals" or "mormons" or "charismaniacs". The problem is human laws and decrees, can never birth a human soul, from death to life.


The crux of the problem is also the fact that these folks pretty much reject each other as heretics. They spew hatred at the "others" over doctrinal interpretations of statements made over a millenia ago, in another language and culture that does not exist today. YET they insist they KNOW what EVERYTHING must mean, what MUST be made into law, and what MUST be enforced on the wicked "unbelievers" they truly hate.

What they THINK they want, they could never live with. It didn't work in Pre dark-ages medievil europe, and teh proven false theories of both divine right and rule is even less viable now.

We have to resolve it, or face our own, very dark age of unenlightenment... and probably sooner than we would like to admit. Technology moves things a lot faster than it used to, and some things, like religious politics and political religions... just are too dangerous to toy with any longer.

Socialism is just plain evil, whether it's masters are Christian socialist, or Politically correct secular humanists. Both are the bane of our times.
120 posted on 07/30/2003 3:36:38 PM PDT by eccl1212
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To: tdadams
It means the same thing.

Yes there were slaves in Isreal - G_d did not establish the practice though, it was a creation man. Another product of the corruptable reasoning of man. It is about trusting G_d with your Freedom.
121 posted on 07/30/2003 3:42:28 PM PDT by CyberCowboy777 (They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters.)
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To: tdadams
[Ephesians 6]

6:1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right.
6:2 Honour thy father and mother; which is the first commandment with promise;
6:3 That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.
6:4 And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.
6:5 Servants, be obedient to them that are [your] masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ;
6:6 Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart;
6:7 With good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men:
6:8 Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether [he be] bond or free.
6:9 And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him.
6:10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
122 posted on 07/30/2003 3:44:48 PM PDT by CyberCowboy777 (They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters.)
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To: hsmomx3
Wow, you haven't been banned yet for not drinking the GOP KoolAid!
123 posted on 07/30/2003 3:46:43 PM PDT by jlogajan
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To: tdadams
And Samuel told all the words of the LORD unto the people that asked of him a king.

And he said, This will be the manner of the king that shall reign over you: He will take your sons, and appoint them for himself, for his chariots, and to be his horsemen; and some shall run before his chariots.

And he will appoint him captains over thousands, and captains over fifties; and will set them to ear his ground, and to reap his harvest, and to make his instruments of war, and instruments of his chariots.

And he will take your daughters to be confectionaries, and to be cooks, and to be bakers.

And he will take your fields, and your vineyards, and your oliveyards, even the best of them, and give them to his servants.

And he will take the tenth of your seed, and of your vineyards, and give to his officers, and to his servants.
And he will take your menservants, and your maidservants, and your goodliest young men, and your asses, and put them to his work.

He will take the tenth of your sheep: and ye shall be his servants.

And ye shall cry out in that day because of your king which ye shall have chosen you; and the LORD will not hear you in that day.

Nevertheless the people refused to obey the voice of Samuel; and they said, Nay; but we will have a king over us;
124 posted on 07/30/2003 3:54:25 PM PDT by CyberCowboy777 (They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters.)
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To: CyberCowboy777
Just as Dane is broad brushing a person, this writer is broad brushing a group. That is my point

What broadbrushing.

All I did was bring up the fact that Ron Paul was right alongside the UN on Iraq. I guess it is just "conicidental" that Ron Paul was parrotting the UN line.

BTW, CC777, if you are going to mention me by name in one of your replies, I would request that you have the courage to ping me about that reply.

125 posted on 07/30/2003 3:59:52 PM PDT by Dane
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To: gcruse
Aye...
...Bump for freedom.

Do you recall my suggestion that many conservatives are conservatives simply from the "Leave me alone" drive? It's a year ago or more now.
126 posted on 07/30/2003 4:01:02 PM PDT by Maelstrom (To prevent misinterpretation or abuse of the Constitution:The Bill of Rights limits government power)
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To: hsmomx3
Before every landslide this article comes up.

Republicans are killing each other
Republicans hate each other
The christians are leaving the party.
Abortion is going to end the republican party.
Tax cuts are going to end the party
yada
yada
yada

Its all barbras streisand. The writer forgets there is no other show in town. (that can win)

Unless you are homosexual, feminist, leftist, or a race baiter there is no place for you in the democrat party.

The democrats must be in BIG trouble if this article is comming out before the Republican convention.
127 posted on 07/30/2003 4:03:37 PM PDT by longtermmemmory (Vote!)
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To: RedneckRampage
John Adams (the second President of the United States)


Adams signed the Treaty of Tripoli (June 7, 1797). Article 11 states:
“The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion.”
128 posted on 07/30/2003 4:05:44 PM PDT by eccl1212
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To: tdadams
There's an awful lot of hue and cry over this article when it's essentially a very insightful analysis. I guess it rings a little too true for some people's liking.

Some people can't stand to look in the mirror!

129 posted on 07/30/2003 4:15:03 PM PDT by FreeLibertarian (You live and learn. Or you don't live long.)
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To: Maelstrom
Can't say as I remember. :(
130 posted on 07/30/2003 4:22:15 PM PDT by gcruse (http://gcruse.blogspot.com/)
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To: DittoJed2
Why barf? The author is correct. As the Republican Party continues to track to the left, a split is inevitable. The Democratic Party is definitely waning and natures abhors a vacuum. A new conservative party will arise as the Republicans pursue their move to the center/center-left.
131 posted on 07/30/2003 4:22:31 PM PDT by xrp
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To: Dane
Fine I will ping you. Not an intentional 'diss' to be sure.

Ron Paul wants to get out of the UN. His opinion (which I disagree with) on Iraq happened to coincide with the UN, that hardly put him in the same ideological bed.

I am with you on Iraq, but Ron Paul is no UNer. That is the truth.

BTW- You do not know me and I would appreciate it if you had the common decency to not question my courage over one overlooked courtesy.
132 posted on 07/30/2003 4:23:04 PM PDT by CyberCowboy777 (They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters.)
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To: hsmomx3
That last big split gave Patsy and the Brigadiers 1% of the vote.

The Greens alone are far more of a threat to the Dimwits that what the GOP is facing.
133 posted on 07/30/2003 4:25:07 PM PDT by Young Rhino (Does God Wear a Tinfoil Hat? Is he a member of the CFR and Trilateral Commission?)
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To: FreeLibertarian
I disagree with this piece and I love looking in the mirror......

We can argue the facts and ideologies without taking every opportunity slam the other side.
134 posted on 07/30/2003 4:26:23 PM PDT by CyberCowboy777 (They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters.)
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To: CyberCowboy777; tdadams
Ron Paul wants to get out of the UN. His opinion (which I disagree with) on Iraq happened to coincide with the UN, that hardly put him in the same ideological bed

All I did was point out the fact that Ron Paul agreed with the UN and liberal democrats about Iraq.

JMO, Ron Paul is not the infallible political savior as he is portrayed by some on FR.

That was my point, but when I do point it out, the rabid Libertarians(not you CC777, but tdadams) throw out their usual ad hominems.

No big surprise there.

135 posted on 07/30/2003 4:28:52 PM PDT by Dane
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To: Dane
I agree that Ron Paul is not the infallible political savior as he is portrayed by some on FR.

I think he could do allot better at working with the GOP and not embarrassing them.

I might suggest he read Art of War, while often over rated, he could learn how to win battles and better win the war.
136 posted on 07/30/2003 4:39:11 PM PDT by CyberCowboy777 (They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters.)
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To: Xenalyte; KarlInOhio
""If you think it is the proper role of a Jeffersonian state to steal money from citizens to build civic plazas and university labs…you might be a Republican."
(Thomas Jefferson would gag if he read this.) "

Yeah, using Jefferson to argue against taxes for public education is a sure sign of a whackjob. Jefferson was a strong proponent of publicly funded education.
A university lab is a perfect example of what he would desire to be supported by taxes.

Other examples of what he believed to be proper uses of taxes:
"...opening roads, clearing rivers, forming safe ports, and other useful works...
in making roads, openingrivers, building ports, improving the arts, and finding employment for their idle poor " (Notes On Virginia)

But of course he'd have a conniption fit at the idea of the federal government funding such projects!

137 posted on 07/30/2003 4:47:57 PM PDT by mrsmith
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To: CyberCowboy777
Was there some point to that or did you simply feel a momentary need for spontaneous preaching?
138 posted on 07/30/2003 4:49:43 PM PDT by tdadams
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To: tdadams
I'm quick to correct anyone who calls me a Republican

Yeah...talk about being INSULTED.

139 posted on 07/30/2003 4:50:10 PM PDT by xrp
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To: tdadams
I made mention to the passage so I posted it.

The other was the complete passage that you posted half a verse of.

Is that a problem? I really gave no sermon and you are the one to start the posts of scripture.

140 posted on 07/30/2003 4:53:10 PM PDT by CyberCowboy777 (They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters.)
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To: mrsmith
Yeah, using Jefferson to argue against taxes for public education is a sure sign of a whackjob. Jefferson was a strong proponent of publicly funded education

Exactly, Jefferson was the founder of the University Of Virginia in Charlottesville.

141 posted on 07/30/2003 4:54:39 PM PDT by Dane
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To: mrsmith
Jefferson wasn't infallible either...however...were he able to look at today's works he would quite certainly change his mind on how much the government should do.

The Anti-Federalists were freaking PROPHETIC!

Look them up sometime.
142 posted on 07/30/2003 5:05:49 PM PDT by Maelstrom (To prevent misinterpretation or abuse of the Constitution:The Bill of Rights limits government power)
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To: Dane
"...by the bill for a general education, [citizens] would be qualified to understand their rights, to maintain them, and to exercise with intelligence their parts in self-government: and all this would be effected without the violation of a single natural right of any one individual citizen." (Autobiography)

He was a great believer that public education was absolutely proper- and neccessary to maintain a republican form of government.

143 posted on 07/30/2003 5:08:13 PM PDT by mrsmith
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To: Maelstrom
"Look them up sometime."
You make me LOL newbie!

But seriously, Jefferson would be astonished at what the NEA and the feds have done to our schools.
The fact that a child is better prepared to be a citizen by parochial schools would especially horrify him I think.

144 posted on 07/30/2003 5:12:46 PM PDT by mrsmith
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To: mrsmith
But seriously...How long do I have to be here to stop being a newbie?

A year after you signed up? Six months?

I think that the fact a child is better prepared to be a citizen by parocial schools would change his mind about how much involvement the government should have in the lives' of our nation's citizenry...thus my comment.
145 posted on 07/30/2003 5:16:41 PM PDT by Maelstrom (To prevent misinterpretation or abuse of the Constitution:The Bill of Rights limits government power)
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To: mrsmith
"I have indeed two great measures at heart, without which no republic can maintain itself in strength: 1. That of general education, to enable every man to judge for himself what will secure or endanger his freedom. 2. To divide every county into hundreds, of such size that all the children of each will be within reach of a central school in it." --Thomas Jefferson to John Tyler, 1810. ME 12:393
146 posted on 07/30/2003 5:20:07 PM PDT by jwalsh07
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To: jwalsh07
Jefferson was wrong...and would freely admit it were he able to witness the destruction of education today.
147 posted on 07/30/2003 5:42:52 PM PDT by Maelstrom (To prevent misinterpretation or abuse of the Constitution:The Bill of Rights limits government power)
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To: Maelstrom
Jefferson was wrong...and would freely admit it were he able to witness the destruction of education today.

No, Jefferson was right in his goals for public education. That our current and former representation made and make crappy policy decisions is another matter.

I can't speak for Jefferson but something tells me he would be a big voucher guy.

148 posted on 07/30/2003 5:49:46 PM PDT by jwalsh07
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To: Maelstrom
We, unlike the person quoted, know Jefferson strongly supported public education- and why he did.
Sure one can speculate, knowing why he supported it, that maybe he would change his mind and support some other general means of educating citizens today.
Why he should blame the taxation for the problems isn't very clear. The system worked pretty well until a few decades ago.
The federal influence would certainly draw his attention.
149 posted on 07/30/2003 5:51:00 PM PDT by mrsmith
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To: gcruse
Some people think it's a bad thing that Democrats have their hands in your pocket, tell you who you must associate with and all the other odious things Democrats stand for but at the same time think it's fine that Republicans want to have a say in your bedroom and in other private and personal issues that are none of their business.
150 posted on 07/30/2003 6:54:51 PM PDT by Courier (Bring joy to Jedda, re-elect Bush)
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