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Diving to Prove Indians Lived on the Continental Shelf
The New York Times ^ | July 29, 2003 | ROBERT HANLEY

Posted on 07/30/2003 4:51:48 PM PDT by sarcasm

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To: e_engineer
If you had a sonar scan like that, where would you start digging? One thing is they would probably put a camp along the banks of sunken riverways. Another place would be high points where hunting lookout camps might have been.
21 posted on 07/30/2003 7:15:52 PM PDT by RightWhale (Destroy the dark; restore the light)
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To: e_engineer
I was thinking of EG&G high resolution sonar (250KC as I recall). Towing this along the banks of submerged rivers which ran out to the continetal shelf break should turn up any sites that are still there. Plan your survey lines on existing bathymetric charts.
22 posted on 07/30/2003 7:17:08 PM PDT by Citizen Tom Paine (The ocean is as unknown as the back side of the moon.)
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To: blam

Link to map of the world's oceans reduced a little more than 300 feet.

ftp://ftp.ngdc.noaa.gov/GLOBE_DEM/pictures/GLOBALsealeveldrop110m.jpg

23 posted on 07/30/2003 7:23:24 PM PDT by blam
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To: Scenic Sounds
Mr. Kraft said. "I hope she finds something. It would be great."

I agree. :-)

24 posted on 07/30/2003 7:32:18 PM PDT by Amelia (If you can read this, thank a teacher. Even if - especially if - it was your mother.)
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To: Question_Assumptions
"What I'm really interested in is the chance of finding evidence of occupation older than 12,000 years, suggesting a pre-Clovis migration from Europe or across North America from Asia."

There are a number of sites on the east coast of the US that already fill that request. Here's just one:

Topper Site

"The person who worked this piece of rock camped at this spot between 12,000 and 18,000 years ago, and possibly even earlier, said Goodyear, director of the Topper excavations. That was a time when huge ice sheets covered what is now the northern United States, and South Carolina was a much colder place, with spruce and fir forests that resembled present-day Canada."

25 posted on 07/30/2003 7:32:58 PM PDT by blam
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To: Question_Assumptions
Interesting read at the link below. Notice the change in terminology, ten years ago, they would have used the term paleo-Indians. There's a slow shift to the term paleo-Americans because all the skeletons found in America that are older than 6,000 years old, are not INDIAN, they are someone else more akin to Kennewick Man.

Paleo-Americans

26 posted on 07/30/2003 7:48:13 PM PDT by blam
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To: Question_Assumptions
Early New World Settlers Rise in East

Bruce Bower
April 15,2000

Virginia, a state perhaps best known for its links to colonial America, contains some of the earliest known remains of prehistoric Americans, according to data presented in Philadelphia last week at the annual meeting of the Society for American Archaeology.

Analyses of soil, plant, and animal remains and stone artifacts that researchers found in layers of a sand dune known as Cactus Hill suggest that people lived there at least 15,000 years ago. That's well before the appearance of the Clovis culture, long regarded as the first in the New World.

Sites from Florida to Alaska have yielded distinctive Clovis stone points. Such finds date at earliest to 11,500 years ago.

"We think people went to Cactus Hill, on and off, beginning at least 15,000 years ago," says Joseph M. McAvoy of Nottoway River Survey-Archaeological Research in Sandstone, Va., who directs research at the site.

Clovis culture may have flourished first in the southeastern United States and then spread westward, McAvoy proposes. However, many archaeologists have assumed that Clovis people crossed into North America from Siberia about 12,000 years ago and then moved eastward.

Excavations at Cactus Hill, which lies along the Nottoway River 45 miles south of Richmond, began in 1993. Wind has carved out this dune and others in the area over the past 25,000 years, McAvoy says. The dune contains enough silt and clay to hold its deposits together.

McAvoy's team identified two sediment layers containing signs of human occupation. The upper level, radiocarbon dated to 10,920 years ago, contained Clovis-style spear points. The lower level, radiocarbon dated to 15,070 years ago, yielded stone points and other implements without Clovis features.

These stone points and blades exhibit microscopic wear marks typical of butchery and hide scraping, reports Larry R. Kimball of Appalachian State University in Boone, N.C. He calls the points "logical precursors" of Clovis points.

Charcoal from the dune's lowest level dates to as early as 19,700 years ago, says McAvoy. That material may have resulted from either human activity or forest fires.

Several lines of evidence lend credence to these dates, McAvoy says. Optically stimulated luminescence dating, a technique for estimating the last exposure of buried soil to sunlight, confirms the site's radiocarbon dates, holds James K. Feathers of the University of Washington in Seattle.

Soil samples from Cactus Hill indicate that no major geological disturbances affected the two archaeological deposits, according to analyses by James C. Baker of Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University in Blacksburg.

Moreover, artifact-bearing soil at the site contains high concentrations of microscopic plant remains, another sign that the human-occupation levels have remained undisturbed, says Lucinda J. McWeeney of Yale University.

Microscopic studies of soil structure at Cactus Hill, however, suggest that geological forces may have affected the artifact layers, assert Carole A. Mandryk and J. Taylor Perron of Harvard University. "I don't think it's been proved that these artifacts come from undisturbed locations," Mandryk says.

Vance Haynes of the University of Arizona in Tucson also views Cactus Hill cautiously. He awaits further radiocarbon tests before accepting the site's age estimates. Haynes says that it's "most unusual" that only 6 inches of soil separate the two occupation levels and so must cover a span of about 5,000 years.

Still, "Cactus Hill is the best candidate for a pre-Clovis site in a long time," Haynes remarks.

Dennis Stanford of the Smithsonian Institution in Washington, D.C., argues that pre-Clovis artifacts at Cactus Hill resemble western European specimens from about the same time. He raises the controversial possibility that seagoing Europeans settled eastern North America and founded the pre-Clovis culture.

Whatever the case, the existence of pre-Clovis folk at Cactus Hill looks convincing, says Michael Johnson, an archaeologist at Fairfax County Park Authority in Falls Church, Va., who's conducting a separate excavation at Cactus Hill.

27 posted on 07/30/2003 7:55:03 PM PDT by blam
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To: sarcasm
Indians lived 6,000 to 10,000 years ago on the exposed continental shelf before it was inundated by water from melting glaciers.

Atlantis??

28 posted on 07/30/2003 9:11:59 PM PDT by lizma
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To: lizma
"Atlantis??"

I recently completed reading the book Voyages Of The Pyramid Builders, by Dr Robert Schoch. He thinks that the Sunda Shelf (Indonesia) that went under water at the end of the Ice Age may be Atlantis. Also, he thinks that the refugees from that area spread all over the world and took the practice of pyramid building with them. He thinks they may be the early Sumerians too.

The oldest and largest pyramid is in the Americas, Mexico I believe.

29 posted on 07/31/2003 6:54:21 AM PDT by blam
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To: blam
The Paleo-American article is an excellent summary of the current state of research. Thanks.
30 posted on 07/31/2003 7:36:17 AM PDT by Question_Assumptions
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To: blam
There are a number of sites on the east coast of the US that already fill that request. Here's just one:

I know there are already sites and evidence but I'm hoping that (A) they find more (since there are still doubters) and (B) they find more evidence of where these populations came from. They need to find more sites. More bones would help, too.

31 posted on 07/31/2003 7:42:16 AM PDT by Question_Assumptions
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To: gcruse
If it's anything like the shelf off Bradley Beach, New Jersey, she may expect to find a tennis shoe, 8 hypodermic needles, a staph infection, and two weighted cadavers.

So it was really junkies, tennis pros and The Sopranos that lived on the continental shelf?

32 posted on 07/31/2003 7:44:32 AM PDT by PBRSTREETGANG
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To: Question_Assumptions
"More bones would help, too."

I agree but, they'll have to fight the Indians just to study them.

33 posted on 07/31/2003 7:52:25 AM PDT by blam
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To: sarcasm
"Finding Gero-Nemo"?
34 posted on 07/31/2003 7:56:49 AM PDT by PBRSTREETGANG
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To: sarcasm
Prehistoric coastal Indians would have used shell and stones for utensils, so what does she expect to find?
35 posted on 07/31/2003 8:01:15 AM PDT by Eva
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To: sarcasm
If she does find the artifacts, the next logical step is to slap up a few oil-rig platforms and put casinos out there!
36 posted on 07/31/2003 8:46:32 AM PDT by PBRSTREETGANG
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To: PBRSTREETGANG
The answer was in the part of my post you clipped off.

" None of this will be more ancient, however, than 1950 CE."
37 posted on 07/31/2003 9:31:05 AM PDT by gcruse (http://gcruse.blogspot.com/)
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To: gcruse
The answer was in the part of my post you clipped off.

My post was intended to poke a little fun at what data this doctoral candidate might extrapolate from the artifacts she actually discovers. It wasn't intended to misrepresent your post which was read and understood in its entirety.

38 posted on 07/31/2003 9:48:15 AM PDT by PBRSTREETGANG
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To: azcap
According to Senator Feingold: In those days we rednecks rode mastodons instead of the more economical dog cart. Global warming came about because of wild bean induced mastodon farts.

(search Feingold, Neuman, methane, cow if you dont get it)

39 posted on 07/31/2003 10:00:46 AM PDT by gnarledmaw
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To: sarcasm
Dr Ballard of "Titanic" fame taught at Texas A&M and published a book about his undersea archeological techniques which he developed during a "dig" off an island by Asia Minor, (southern Turkey), where many ancient trade routes came together.

His techniques included setting a grid and using photo techniques similar to Air Force reconnasaince. He discovered many ships in this area including a pre iron age ship as well as ships from every major era, Roman, Phonecian, Minoan, and Greek. Ballard also did some deep Mediterranean photo shoots and found some Roman ships that plied the waters between Marseilles and North Africa.

Today, Ballard is plumbing the Black Sea Coastline in search of the evidence for the Biblical Flood.

As for the Jersey shoreline, there is much to offer. Myself, I'd rather search the depths of Maruca's Pizzeria at Sea Side Heights!

40 posted on 07/31/2003 10:10:31 AM PDT by Young Werther
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