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Boy Scouts' use of Balboa Park land ruled unconstitutional
San Diego Union-Tribune ^ | 7/31/03 | Ray Huard

Posted on 07/31/2003 11:22:36 PM PDT by lowbridge

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To: Scenic Sounds
I saw this last night soon after its posting and I was too disgusted then to post and I'm even madder this morning!

Do you know Nap? I know people who know him, but I don't personally know him, although we went to the same high school, he was several years ahead of me.

Nonetheless, he's turned into quite the democrat-judicial-activist, hasn't he? I remember folks telling me that he used to give his old classmates the benefit of the doubt when he was a muni judge. My, but power seems to have gone to his head!

I can hardly wait to hear what all Roger Hedgecock will have to say today! Shame on Nap, he KNOWS better, but apparently he's beholden to his party and their pro-homo-anti-Boy Scout agenda!
101 posted on 08/01/2003 9:05:21 AM PDT by onyx (Name an honest democrat? I can't either!)
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To: yankeedame
ROFL!!!!
102 posted on 08/01/2003 9:39:30 AM PDT by stands2reason
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To: Sloth
LOL!!!
103 posted on 08/01/2003 9:41:13 AM PDT by stands2reason
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To: dennisw
So, you don't even have to be a lawyer to be a (Dem.) judge?
104 posted on 08/01/2003 9:45:20 AM PDT by stands2reason
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To: lowbridge
Shouldn't this be regarding as a REVERSE 'HATE-CRIME'??
105 posted on 08/01/2003 9:57:46 AM PDT by F16Fighter (The Main Event: Mark Levin vs. Senator Hitlery -- A Steel Cage Debate Spectacular On Pay Per View)
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To: seamole
"Bush really disappointed me when he didn't follow through on his campaign promise to suspend the Constitution and remove liberal judges from the federal bench by fiat."

BUMP

106 posted on 08/01/2003 9:58:59 AM PDT by F16Fighter (The Main Event: Mark Levin vs. Senator Hitlery -- A Steel Cage Debate Spectacular On Pay Per View)
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To: stands2reason
I'm sure he has law degree. That's just his bio at college.
107 posted on 08/01/2003 10:23:31 AM PDT by dennisw (G_d is at war with Amalek for all generations)
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To: nevergore
Scouts are of all religions backgrounds, beliefs and enthnicity....

Actually no. Athiests and agnostics are not allowed to join. They may have all religious backgrounds, but clearly not all beliefs...
108 posted on 08/01/2003 10:32:57 AM PDT by Stone Mountain
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To: lowbridge
WHAT UNMITIGATED MALE BOVINE PROCESSED ORGANIC MATTER FRISBEES . . .

WET.

And we have let this intimidation and upside down gerrymanding horse biscuits go on for decades!

And all the demons in hell laugh uproariously at the thought of it.

God have mercy on our idiotic culture.

109 posted on 08/01/2003 10:35:10 AM PDT by Quix (PLEASE SHARE THE TRUTH RE BILLDO AND SHRILLERY FAR AND WIDE)
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To: Stone Mountain
Atheist have no beliefs....

Agnostics belief in a higher being of sorts...they just do not associate with a religion, well, possibly science....

Agnostics would be welcome....

Antheists not (since they do not have a belief)

As stated, BSA welcomes all beliefs....

You could worship an inkblot on the wall of Rosie's Diner because you think it looks like Elvis and has divine properties....you would be welcome...

NeverGore
110 posted on 08/01/2003 11:05:53 AM PDT by nevergore (Please return your seat trays and seat backs to their full and upright position....)
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To: from occupied ga
Next Stop, the Supreme Court and VICTORY.
111 posted on 08/01/2003 11:22:03 AM PDT by MattGarrett
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To: doodlelady
Five years ago, my husband, very young looking 12 year old son and myself went for dinner at a Thai restaurant in Hillcrest. Walking back to the truck, we passed a group of 5 young "men". They were openly admiring our gangly kid and commenting to each other. We haven't spent another minute or dollar in the Hillcrest area since then.
112 posted on 08/01/2003 11:23:46 AM PDT by Umanbean
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To: lowbridge
sued over the lease in August 2000 on behalf of a lesbian couple and an agnostic couple and their son
2 activist lesbos, 2 god-less liberals = 1000s of Boy Scouts hurt. Truly Orwellian. And democrat-like.
113 posted on 08/01/2003 11:26:24 AM PDT by Libertina
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To: friendly
Is he any relation to Velvet Jones?
114 posted on 08/01/2003 11:28:10 AM PDT by Redcloak (All work and no FReep makes Jack a dull boy. All work and no FReep make s Jack a dul boy. Allwork an)
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To: onyx
The Boy Scouts have a 50-year, $1-a-year lease that is due to expire in 2007. The City Council in December renewed the lease at the Scouts' request for 25 years, with a city option to extend the lease an additional 15 years.

Under terms of the lease, the Scouts must spend $1.7 million over the next seven years to upgrade Camp Balboa. The Scouts also are required to pay the city an annual administrative fee initially set at $2,500

It sounds to me like the Boy Scouts have had a pretty good deal, although maybe not as good a deal as the Chargers. ;-)

115 posted on 08/01/2003 11:29:23 AM PDT by Scenic Sounds (Next year, the President will be re-elected but good!)
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To: MattGarrett
Next Stop, the Supreme Court and VICTORY.

Yes, but victory for whom?

116 posted on 08/01/2003 11:42:57 AM PDT by from occupied ga (Your government is your enemy, and Bush is no conservative)
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To: nevergore
Atheist have no beliefs....

This clearly isn't true. Athiests believe that there is no compelling evidence of God. That is a belief. You may agree or disagree with it, but to not call it a belief is nonsensical.

Agnostics belief in a higher being of sorts...they just do not associate with a religion, well, possibly science....

This isn't true either. Agnostics believe in the POSSIBILITY of a higher being of sorts. More specifically, they believe that man can never know for sure whether or not there is a God, so they consider the question moot. My understanding is that unless one affirms a belief in God (which neither athiests nor agnostics do), they aren't allowed in the Scouts.

As stated, BSA welcomes all beliefs....

This just isn't true. Even the BSA says as much.

You could worship an inkblot on the wall of Rosie's Diner because you think it looks like Elvis and has divine properties....you would be welcome...

Perhaps, but not if you are an athiest or an agnostic.
117 posted on 08/01/2003 11:46:57 AM PDT by Stone Mountain
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To: doodlelady
Yep, now that land can be used for anonymous sexual hookups, homeless encampments and trash dumping. But at least those intolerant Boy Scouts are gone.
118 posted on 08/01/2003 11:51:37 AM PDT by GSWarrior
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To: RonF
Paging RonF! As the resident scout expert here, can you confirm that I'm right?
119 posted on 08/01/2003 11:52:53 AM PDT by Stone Mountain
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To: JohnHuang2
Thanks for the nomination! };^D )
120 posted on 08/01/2003 12:08:10 PM PDT by RJayneJ (To see pictures of Jayne's quilt: http://bulldogbulletin.lhhosting.com/page50.htm)
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To: Hildy
You can't have boy scouts on public land, but you can fund a school for 100 gay students. Hmm.

Exactly.

121 posted on 08/01/2003 12:10:40 PM PDT by lowbridge (You are the audience. I am the author. I outrank you! -Franz Liebkind, The Producers)
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To: Lancey Howard
"When we got organized as a country...we wrote a fairly radical (US) Constitution with a radical Bill of Rights, giving a radical amount of individual freedom to Americans...so a lot of people say there's too much personal freedom...When personal freedom's being abused, you have to move to limit it."--Bill Clinton,April 19, 1994 TV appearance. Quoted in "You Don't Say"(Sometimes liberals show their true colors),by Fred Gielow.

So Billy Boy appointed judges to take away our radical personal freedoms, or should I say judges to choose who is worthy of personal freedoms--i.e. SD homosexuals. The BSA are obviously not worthy.

vaudine
122 posted on 08/01/2003 12:42:28 PM PDT by vaudine
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To: lowbridge
We are in a civil war, and they (the Demons)Rats are winning via courts and law schools, and US Senate...

The War on Fathers/Men/Boys, Family and GOD continues.....
ps..the military,police,marriage....Did I say God

the suicide of fathers and boys body count is growing fast...it's almost "Broken Arrow".

vet out
123 posted on 08/01/2003 12:48:14 PM PDT by Orlando
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To: Consort
Here are a couple of quotes from "elite" beureaucrats and educators on religion and raising our children, quoted from "You Don't Say" by Fred Gielow.

"Each child belongs to the state."--Wm.Seawell,Prof.of Ed at U of VA.

"We really don't know how to raise children.If we want to talk about equality of opportunity for children, then the fact that children are raised in families means there's no equality....we must take them away from families and communally raise them."--Dr. Mary J. Bane,Prof. of public policy,Kennedy Sch.of Govt,Harvard. Former Clinton Admin Asst Sec of Admin for children and families at HHS.

"Every child who believes in God is mentally ill."--Dr. Paul Brandwein,leading US child psychologist.

"Fundamental,Bible-believing people do not have the right to indoctrinate their children in their religious beliefs because we,the state,are preparing them for the year 2000,when America will be part of a one-world global society and their children will not fit in."--Peter Hoagland, US Repr.(D-Nebr.1983 radio statement.)This Repr. served 3 or 4 terms in the House from Nebr.-heart of middle Am.Is it not scarey that people like this can end in our govt.?

With people like this--in positions of power with their global, anti-family,anti-God,UN and state control mentality,it is no wonder we get the court rulings we get.

My question--why aren't some of these statements used in campaign ads and used to block liberal nominations to the court. The Pubbies better wake up and grow a spine. And we, the people, better wake up and get involved in opposition the way the homos and minorities have been involved.

vaudine
124 posted on 08/01/2003 1:08:24 PM PDT by vaudine
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To: newzjunkey
Having been involved with Scouting for many years, it is obvious to me that you have little experience with the organization. So sad that you write about something of which you know so little. The Scouts ALWAYS improve any of the land or facilites that they are permitted to use, and do so for the public use/public good...and through donations and lots of hard work, rather than your tax dollar. There are provate organizations all over that use public facilites, and without having to bid for them. For instance, many public schools in CA have Gay/Lesbian Clubs, and you cannot join UNLESS you prefess a belief that there is nothing abnormal nor morally wrong with homosexuality. Hmmm...


125 posted on 08/01/2003 1:13:46 PM PDT by Proud Legions
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To: Rummyfan
No law degree?

Who needs the law when you are a Rat?

126 posted on 08/01/2003 1:15:28 PM PDT by friendly ((Badges?, we don gots to show no stinkin' badges!))
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To: lowbridge
This is clearly an abuse of power by another crackpot,religion hating,blackrobed thief!Unfit to sit on the bench.The great American Boy Scouts have every right to use that land because their parents are taxpayers.
127 posted on 08/01/2003 1:57:41 PM PDT by INSENSITIVE GUY
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To: Stone Mountain
Wrong yet again, on all three issues.....

BSA policy welcomes all beliefs....Atheism is not a belief but the lack of one.....

"This just isn't true. Even the BSA says as much."

Gee...making up quotes and attributing them to BSA....

Are you a member? Guess not...I'm a Scoutmaster and the training I received in this area is just as I stated....What are your credentials?

NeverGore

128 posted on 08/01/2003 2:24:31 PM PDT by nevergore (Please return your seat trays and seat backs to their full and upright position....)
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To: Myrddin
Too bad I only own 5 acres. When I win the Lottery and can find a larger ranch, I promise to set aside acreage the BSA can use to replace this camp. I DO NOT promise it will be in a city/urban setting. Most likely a far way from "civilization", but the price of the land lease will be appropriate.
129 posted on 08/01/2003 2:37:42 PM PDT by ridesthemiles (ridesthemiles)
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To: newzjunkey
I don't think so. This is talking about an organization's requirements *and* (maybe more importantly) the "sweetheart" deal this lease represents. The Scouts aren't paying fair market value, didn't have to compete for the lease or anything.

Not true. You discount both the already extensive improvements the Council has made on the land; the additional improvements that they had pledged to make to the land; the fact that the BSA represents a large fraction of the public; and the fact that other non-BSA members of the public would have access tot he property and facilities.

130 posted on 08/01/2003 2:42:10 PM PDT by RonF
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To: PatrioticAmerican; Joe Boucher; ImphClinton
"Welcome to Amerika, Christian bastards not welcome."

What's this got to do with Christians? All religions, and numerous non-religous sponsors, all belong to the BSA and sponsor units. I've had a Hindu kid in my unit. I've been to dinner at a Buddhist temple with their Troop. There's Jewish Troops that go to the Jamboree together so that they can observe their dietary and other religous laws. Not to mention that only the LDS consdiders the LDS Christian. The BSA is not a Christian organization.

131 posted on 08/01/2003 2:47:21 PM PDT by RonF
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To: ridesthemiles
Mataguay and the camps in the Cuyamaca area are satisfactory alternatives, but they are a very long drive. It isn't practical to schedule lifesaving merit badge classes at those locations unless you plan to camp there for a whole week. There is also a specialty shop at the camp that stocks all the badges and insignia for uniforms. That will need to be replaced in some fashion.

I rode my bicycle from Chula Vista to places as far away as San Vicente reservoir in search of merit badge counselors. It's going to be difficult to find an alternative facility for the swimming related badges.

I miss listening to Roger Hedgecock in the afternoons. I'll bet he is pretty fired up on the issue by now.

132 posted on 08/01/2003 2:52:05 PM PDT by Myrddin
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To: friendly
Schumer probably voted for him
133 posted on 08/01/2003 2:53:44 PM PDT by snooker
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To: newzjunkey
Fair is fair. I want to see some accounting for all the taxpayer money that is subsidizing gay and lesbian activities. Are they paying fair market value? Why is the city involved in hospice programs? The gays and lesbians can't have it both ways.
134 posted on 08/01/2003 2:56:38 PM PDT by Myrddin
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To: Scenic Sounds
"It sounds to me like the Boy Scouts have had a pretty good deal"

What is so good about it???
They built the park, they have to pay out another 1.7 mill, and $2500 per year.

135 posted on 08/01/2003 3:03:16 PM PDT by AlexW
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To: Myrddin
Mataguay survived a scandal a few years back
that so reinforces the need for the Boy Scouts to take a strong stand against the predatory nature of the gay agenda.

One of the adult male leaders was inviting counselors up to his cabin at night and one of the boys finally talked. Our good friend was a counselor there at the time (not one of those boys) and couldn't have been more shocked.
He'd known, and trusted, that leader for years.
The leader was duly prosecuted and
parents rallied behind Mataguay.
It's a wonderful camp, and the situation was handled with great dignity.


136 posted on 08/01/2003 3:29:51 PM PDT by b9
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To: Kuksool
CA liberals have declared a Jihad against the BSA.

Not a Jihad, FRiend, but a fatwah. And it comes from the DNC Itself.

ALL patriotism, and their symbols, must be eradicated - this is right out of the Socialist playbook. The Pledge has been attacked, so has a youth organization that professes the Creator:

"On my honor, I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country..."

THAT is the damning phrase, according to Socialism.

137 posted on 08/01/2003 3:31:31 PM PDT by Old Sarge (Serving You - on Operation Noble Eagle!)
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To: RonF
Correct, though it is the morals oath of the B.S.A. that the dims and united way oppose.
138 posted on 08/01/2003 4:08:16 PM PDT by Joe Boucher
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To: AlexW
What is so good about it???

Probably the best way to measure that will be the fight that is made to keep it. ;-)

139 posted on 08/01/2003 4:36:47 PM PDT by Scenic Sounds (Next year, the President will be re-elected but good!)
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To: lowbridge
U.S. District Judge Napoleon Jones Jr. said the Scouts' lease of the 18-acre Camp Balboa in Balboa Park violates provisions in the U.S. and state constitutions governing the separation of church and state.

Send this judge packing to a re-education camp immediately.

There are no provisions in the Constitution of The United Staes for separation of church and State.

1st Amendment: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;...

That's it. How is this applicable to the above case other than to say the judge prohibited the free exercise of the religion chosen by the BSA?

140 posted on 08/01/2003 4:42:51 PM PDT by Bloody Sam Roberts ()
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To: Publius6961
Dream on (I think).

You sure sound confused.

No "dream on" to it. The law and the trends are against Bush because the rest of his party capitulates to their counterparts. If they had any b*lls, we'd have some judges in the federal court by now. There's your trend. They gave into the Dems when the Dems were in power. Now they are giving into them when they are not in power.

I'll say it again: We're going down and the government is doing everything it can to make it happen.

141 posted on 08/01/2003 5:38:26 PM PDT by Glenn (What were you thinking, Al?)
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To: doodlelady
I remember that scandal. I was still living in San Diego when it happened. My last trip to Mataguay was as an adult advisor for the troop sponsored by my church. I slept in the back of my pickup truck for 2 nights. The advisor who had been scheduled for the week had a 2 day business trip, so I provided supervision for a couple nights. It is a nice camp.
142 posted on 08/01/2003 7:10:43 PM PDT by Myrddin
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To: Stone Mountain
If you profess a belief in any established religion, you are welcome in Scouting. If you profess no belief in any established religion, but are willing to go so far as to say that you think that there must be some kind of power beyond the material, one that does not operate on the material plane but that has rules that we are accountable to, you pass. Even if that power is not incarnate in any kind of "God" and if you're not too sure about the rules. You are acceptable if you've made up your own religion and think that God resides in tree in your front yard. About the only thing that won't fly is that if you definitely state that "there is no God" and that there's no such thing as a supernatural power.
143 posted on 08/01/2003 8:40:51 PM PDT by RonF
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To: lowbridge
O.K. So the judge interprets "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" to mean that no Government agency can sign a contract with any religious agency, or grant it any privileges. Take this to it's logical and by no means extreme conclusion, and you'll see the property tax exemption taken from all religiously affiliated organizations (churches, etc.).

So. Now, does the BSA take this up on appeal? The BSA has never lost in the Supreme Court. I think that the judge has this wrong on the merits on the law.

144 posted on 08/01/2003 8:51:26 PM PDT by RonF
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To: Myrddin
>>> I rode my bicycle from Chula Vista to places as far away as San Vicente reservoir<<<

Wow...amazing!
We live in Chula Vista...it's growing so fast.
We're not quite ready to give up the perfect weather yet.
145 posted on 08/01/2003 9:46:40 PM PDT by b9
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To: lowbridge
Jones said the Boy Scouts are a religious organization because the Scouts require members to profess a belief in God

They are also a Congressionally chartered organization, like the American Legion or the Veterans of Foreign Wars. In case the judge never noticed. The Supreme Court and Congress start their sessions with a prayer, does that make them unconstitutional as well? The Scouts don't attempt to tell anyone which God to believe in, or for that matter to even believe in God, just to do their duty to God, as they the individual sees it. There are scout organizations affilliated with virtually all religions, including dozens of Christian denominations from Baptists to Prebyterians, African Methodist Ephicapilians to Mormons (and stopping by the Seventh Day Adventists on the way) , the Baha'i Faith, various branches of Judahism, various branches of Islam, Budhists, Hindus and others.

The "requires belief in God must come from these two requirments:

Scout Oath (or Promise)
On my honor I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country
and to obey the Scout Law;
To help other people at all times;
To keep myself physically strong,
mentally awake, and morally straight.

or this part of the Scout Law

REVERENT
A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others.

That last is really bad isn't it? "Respects the beliefs of others."

Of course the real beef with the Boy Scouts is their stand on homosexuality. Plus maybe a little of their stand on firearms and firearms training

146 posted on 08/02/2003 10:46:12 AM PDT by El Gato
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To: newzjunkey
the Christian Right and their pet organizations

What about all those Muslim Scouts, Jewish Scouts, Hindu Scouts and Buddist Scouts?

The legal question doesn't revolve around religion at all. The question is whether or not the "sweetheart deal" is in the public interest. For generations the answer was yes. It's also not a question for the courts, but rather for legislatures, in this case a city council.

147 posted on 08/02/2003 11:16:22 AM PDT by El Gato
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To: PatrioticAmerican
</i>Christian bastards not welcome</i> The Scouts are not a "Christian" organization. They fully welcome Muslims, Hindus, Jews, and Buddits, amoung others. Part of their law requires "respecting the beliefs of others". No, what the liberals can't stand about the scouts is their Americanism and their wholesomeness. The liberal are for internationalism and debauchery.
148 posted on 08/02/2003 11:19:27 AM PDT by El Gato
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To: El Gato
They might accept them, but faith to God is part of the Boy Scout way of life and heritage. Muslims are not a religion, but pray to a rock. Buddists don't believe in the God, but reserve the right to not believe or to believe. Jews have faith in God, but not Jesus. Hindus, well, they think cows are their ancestors.

So, except for the Jews, the BSA may have them in their ranks, but they have no faith in God. The BSA may not be Christian in a direct sense, but they are in the sense that the religions of faith to God, except for the Jews, are Christian.

The BSA isn't just a camping society of young boys and men, and, if that is what you think, you don't know the BSA.
149 posted on 08/02/2003 11:33:57 AM PDT by PatrioticAmerican (Helping Mexicans invade America is TREASON!)
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To: America's Resolve
For me this sets the following precedent: if you profess a belief in (a) God, you are ineligible for any govt benefits.

or, in this case, to do business with your own government.
150 posted on 08/02/2003 11:37:05 AM PDT by gitmo (We have left the slippery slope and we are now in free fall.)
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