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Boy Scouts' use of Balboa Park land ruled unconstitutional
San Diego Union-Tribune ^ | 7/31/03 | Ray Huard

Posted on 07/31/2003 11:22:36 PM PDT by lowbridge

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To: PatrioticAmerican
you don't know the BSA.

From the Scout Law :

"He respects the beliefs of others".

Apparently it you sir, who does not know the BSA.

151 posted on 08/02/2003 11:59:54 AM PDT by El Gato
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To: America's Resolve
Well, using this logic, if a legal entity were to have a belief in a G-d like figure, and profess it, then they would be denied any governmental contracts.

Therefore, a Christian could be denied a drivers license if they have any indication of their faith displayed on their vehicle.

152 posted on 08/02/2003 12:25:07 PM PDT by sten
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To: sten
This is all so looney it gives me the shivvers.
It's like a bad dream and I can't wake up.

Did you ever in your wildest dreams in the last 20-30 years expect you'd have to defend the principles of the BOY SCOUTS of all things?!!!

Wonder how soon they'll be changing our currency.
"In God We Trust"
It really is a war, isn't it.
153 posted on 08/02/2003 2:28:21 PM PDT by b9
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To: doodlelady
It is.

Have anybody seen or heard of any elected-officals
on any level defending the BSA ?
What is it that the national media is not reporting this ?
like FOX or radio talk shows like Rush,Sean,Savage,Reagan,etc....? They should be defending
the little boys. just wondering
154 posted on 08/02/2003 3:13:17 PM PDT by Orlando
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To: doodlelady
I was in Chula Vista last weekend. Hilltop High class of 1973 30th reunion. My parents still live in CV.
155 posted on 08/02/2003 5:06:36 PM PDT by Myrddin
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To: Myrddin
Well, we're about 4 blocks from Hilltop High!

Small woild, huh.
156 posted on 08/02/2003 5:39:07 PM PDT by b9
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To: doodlelady
My mother-in-law graduated from Chula Vista High before Hilltop was built. Her younger brother (now deceased) was in one of the first classes to attend Hilltop. My wife is a graduate of Bonita Vista High.

Your proximity to the Hilltop campus means you will be hearing the drum section of the band doing the summer training sessions. Before H street was completed, I marched down Claire Ave from I St to Via De Laurencio every afternoon from September through December. Evenings were spent on the football field to practice for half-time shows. Mornings started at 5:00 AM for trumpet section practice in the band room.

Take a drive down Peppertree Lane. After the first big dip, there is a big, semi-circular house on the right. That belonged to my wife's uncle. He started a little company known as Kelco. Today, the house is occupied by the young lady who was the flower girl at my wedding and her husband.

My wife's grandfather came to Chula Vista around 1911. He had the opportunity to buy a big piece of swampy land for $500, but turned it down. That land is known as the Bonita Valley today. We have quite a bit of family history tied up in Chula Vista.

157 posted on 08/02/2003 6:45:09 PM PDT by Myrddin
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To: newzjunkey
Are you Ok with it being justified with the 1st amendment?
158 posted on 08/02/2003 6:52:27 PM PDT by Sam Cree (Democrats are herd animals)
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To: Myrddin
That must've been quite a decision to transplant yourselves from Chula Vista to Idaho....
It's changed soooo much here in the last several years.
Unfortunately the Hilltop schools aren't anywhere near as good anymore...our son graduated from Bonita Vista
in '96 and our daughter from Coronado last year.
I'm still a Colorado girl in my mind, where I grew up...
my husband's a Navy brat from San Rafael.
Yep, we do hear the Hilltop band!
You must be so proud of your son in Kuwait.
Talk about the ultimate Boy Scout! Is he married?
159 posted on 08/02/2003 11:54:03 PM PDT by b9
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To: friendly
Napoleon A. Jones, Jr. (THE PREDICTABLE BIOGRAPHY OF A MONSTER) U.S. District Court Judge Napoleon Jones graduated in 1967 with a master's degree in Social Work. Five years before the Africana Studies Department was established, Jones founded and became the first president of SDSU's Black Student Council. Additionally, Jones was a member of Kappa Alpha Psi which was the first African-American fraternity. In 1994, he was appointed by President Clinton to the United States District Court for the Southern District of California.

This is the reason that differences with less conservative republicans should never result in a vote for a disruptor such as Perot.

160 posted on 08/03/2003 7:16:10 AM PDT by ontos-on
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To: swilhelm73
"when the Dems controlled the Senate too, and "

They had no greater power than the GOP does today. A filibuster was possible.

If republicans are not going to ever use the filibuster, then get rid of it now and stop this pussy-footing around. Patrick Leahy is a snake who can never be trusted . Now, Hatch, now. Get the senate rules amended to remove this unlawful ability to filibuster. Then get the nominated judges approved--or at least a vote. Now. Now Now. Do not put this off. Dont you dare tolerate this situation into the 2004 election. NOW!

161 posted on 08/03/2003 7:21:16 AM PDT by ontos-on
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To: Lancey Howard
"we need a Senate GOP supermajority."

NO WE NEED A GOP SENATE WITH STRENGTH & DETERMINATION, NOT THIS CURRENT BUNCH WITH THE P__SSY-SPINED HATCH & FRIST.

162 posted on 08/03/2003 7:25:36 AM PDT by ontos-on
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To: newzjunkey
I don't think so. This is talking about an organization's requirements *and* (maybe more importantly) the "sweetheart" deal this lease represents. The Scouts aren't paying fair market value, didn't have to compete for the lease or anything.

The built the park at their expense, they pay $2,500 a year in administrstive fees, and are required to pay $1.7 million to upgrade and maintain the facilities. That's a "sweatheart" deal?

Next time take ten seconds to read the article before you open the door of your liberal/libertarian mental latrine and let the muck flow into cyberspace.

163 posted on 08/03/2003 7:30:23 AM PDT by Kevin Curry (Put Justice Janice Rogers Brown on the Supreme Court--NOW)
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To: ontos-on
Its not quite so trivial to remove the filibuster from the Constitution.

The Reps do have the 'nuclear option', but my guess here is they are hoping to use the Dems sordid bigoted activities in regards to judges against them in 2004 with the hope it will really hurt the Dems in the Senate.

Personally, I'd go straight for the 'nuclear option' and tell the partisan press where to get off when they started "reporting" Dem party press releases, since we know if the situation was reversed that's what the Dems would do. But then that's me.
164 posted on 08/03/2003 10:36:41 AM PDT by swilhelm73
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To: ontos-on
Differences with less conservative republicans should never result in a vote for a disruptor such as Perot.

Perot is a psychotic genius, who was delusional about the Bush family, and who was completely exploited by the Rats to siphon off votes.

165 posted on 08/03/2003 11:38:02 AM PDT by friendly ((Badges?, we don gots to show no stinkin' badges!))
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To: doodlelady
My son is 20. He's still working on his degree in astrophysics. He's not married yet. The court decision that shifted school funding from the local property tax base around the school (Carlin I think), caused the available funding to drop drastically. Now California has a state full of mediocre to poor schools. Even though my son graduated with a 4.33 GPA, I'm not convinced the quality of the education he received as a 2001 graduate of Mira Mesa High school compares to what I had as a 1973 graduate of Hilltop High.

Frankly, I think the Carlin decision did far more harm to school quality than prop 13. Rampant illegal immigration added significantly to the decline.

My son's Boy Scout activity was interesting. He joined a troop in Mira Mesa that was sponsored by the Catholic Church. It was a much larger troop than the tiny group at our LDS ward. More like what I experienced as a scout. He earned his Second class and First class ranks so fast that they were presented at the same Court of Honor. The scoutmaster told him he needed to slow down. He followed that advice and left the scout troop. I'm still ticked off about the way that happened.

166 posted on 08/03/2003 7:23:47 PM PDT by Myrddin
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To: swilhelm73
I think it is a mistake to call the amendment of senate rules to outlaw filibuster in judicial advise and consent operations by the name preferred by the left, "the nuclear option".

Senate rules can be changed by the senate itself. Fillibuster is not in the Constitution. That you think so, only demonstrates the importance in not adopting the terminology and notions of the left.

167 posted on 08/03/2003 8:20:18 PM PDT by ontos-on
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To: friendly
Exactly! That's why conservatives should not vote for a silly third party. You will not convince me that Perot did not have a deeper linkage to Clinton.
168 posted on 08/03/2003 8:23:56 PM PDT by ontos-on
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To: Hildy
I believe Homo High costs about $3,700,000.00 a year.

Taxpayer money, too. Not private donations.
169 posted on 08/04/2003 6:05:12 AM PDT by TLI (...........ITINERIS IMPENDEO VALHALLA..........)
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To: nevergore
I didn't make up any quote. The BSA clearly says that they do not admit athiests. Athiesm is a belief system - one you clearly disagree with, but a belief system nonetheless. Therefore, BSA policy does not welcome all beliefs. This shouldn't be hard to understand.

My highest rank was Life Scout, btw, if that matters at all. I'm not quarreling with you about BSA policy - I'm quarreling with you about what your definition of belief is. I don't understand how anyone can say that the BSA welcomes all beliefs when it doesn't welcome athiests.
170 posted on 08/04/2003 6:30:04 AM PDT by Stone Mountain
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To: RonF
So the statement, "the BSA welcomes all beliefs" - true or false in your opinion?
171 posted on 08/04/2003 6:31:46 AM PDT by Stone Mountain
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To: Stone Mountain
Atheism is an anti-belief--a militant anti-belief. Atheism is the anti-spirit behind much of the degeneration of American culture and the loss of freedoms that have taken place over the past century.

Atheism has already claimed our public forums for its exclusive anti-worship sites. Atheism is ruled by a very jealous anti-God.

The anti-belief of atheism is not allowed in the BSA. The BSA is very wise to resist its corrosive poison.

172 posted on 08/04/2003 6:40:47 AM PDT by Kevin Curry (Put Justice Janice Rogers Brown on the Supreme Court--NOW)
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To: lowbridge
Wasn't their a ruling that stated that so long as ALL groups are allowed to make the same arraingements then it was allowed.
For example the renting of school autoriums to churches.

173 posted on 08/04/2003 8:02:29 AM PDT by FlatLandBeer
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To: lowbridge
So we have a racist "judge" who rules from the Communist Manifesto (there is no "Separation of Church & State" in the US Constitution) that people who have signed a lawful contract and pay a lease have no rights to use the property they are improving and paying maintenance dues.

Ironically, the Atheistic and Marxist ACLU has no problems using the court rooms freely to lay the iron boot on decent people. Membership in the Boy Scouts is not like Nazi Youth, NAMBLA or The Crypts. Better to keep the park available for gay sex cruising, the godless urban outdoorsmen, and what-not.

Meanwhile Sodomites and S&M freaks can use the city streets freely for their parades.
174 posted on 08/04/2003 8:42:04 AM PDT by Dr Warmoose
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To: dennisw
Does this clown have a law degree?
175 posted on 08/04/2003 8:52:10 AM PDT by jackbill
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To: jackbill
Does this clown have a law degree? .........


He must... This is just a blurb from where he was an under graduate. Why it doesn't mention his law degree is a mystery
176 posted on 08/04/2003 8:59:48 AM PDT by dennisw (G_d is at war with Amalek for all generations)
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To: jackbill
His law degree--->

http://www.jtbf.org/article_iii_judges/jones_jr_n.htm
177 posted on 08/04/2003 9:03:59 AM PDT by dennisw (G_d is at war with Amalek for all generations)
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To: dennisw
His law degree---> http://www.jtbf.org/article_iii_judges/jones_jr_n.htm

And this is the place he got it from:


178 posted on 08/04/2003 9:10:05 AM PDT by lowbridge (You are the audience. I am the author. I outrank you! -Franz Liebkind, The Producers)
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To: dennisw
This is just a blurb from where he was an under graduate. Why it doesn't mention his law degree is a mystery


179 posted on 08/04/2003 9:11:11 AM PDT by lowbridge (You are the audience. I am the author. I outrank you! -Franz Liebkind, The Producers)
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To: lowbridge
I love that the Boy Scouts are now all of a sudden public enemy #1. I can't imagine why that would be. < /sarcasm>
180 posted on 08/04/2003 9:14:42 AM PDT by CharliefromKS
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To: Kevin Curry
Atheism is an anti-belief--a militant anti-belief. Atheism is the anti-spirit behind much of the degeneration of American culture and the loss of freedoms that have taken place over the past century.
Atheism has already claimed our public forums for its exclusive anti-worship sites. Atheism is ruled by a very jealous anti-God.
-curried mind-



"The continuous disasters of man's history are mainly due to his excessive capacity and urge to become identified with a tribe, nation, church or cause, and to espouse its credo uncritically and enthusiastically, even if its tenets are contrary to reason, devoid of self-interest and detrimental to the claims of self-preservation. We are thus driven to the unfashionable conclusion that the trouble with our species is not an excess of aggression, but an excess capacity for fanatical devotion."
-Arthur Koestler-
181 posted on 08/04/2003 9:35:38 AM PDT by tpaine (Really, I'm trying to be Mr Nice Guy, but principles keep getting in me way.)
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To: Kevin Curry
Irrational Christian haters. They don't even bother with trying to hide their biases anymore.

But we've always known that it's really "Separation of Christianity and State":
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/950086/posts
182 posted on 08/04/2003 9:54:30 AM PDT by Egg
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To: Egg
Also here
183 posted on 08/04/2003 10:21:24 AM PDT by Egg
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To: Bloody Sam Roberts
There are no provisions in the Constitution of The United Staes for separation of church and State.

While I disagree with you on that, the deal between the government and the Scouts neither endorses nor enforces nor persecutes a religion. As far as the queer angle goes, it's ridiculous that people who make abnormal sex their reason for living can force others to "accept" and "celebrate" their lifestyle. While "all Men are Created Equal" they don't end up that way, particularly when their lifestyle choices are repugnant to others.

This is a disgustingly leftist ruling.

184 posted on 08/04/2003 11:48:16 AM PDT by jimt
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To: Stone Mountain
As Defined in Encylopedia Brittanica:

Atheism as rejection of religious beliefs from atheism

A central, common core of Judaism, , and is the affirmation of the reality of one, and only one, God. Adherents of these faiths believe that there is a God who created the universe out of nothing ...

No religious beliefs...no admittance to BSA....

NeverGore

185 posted on 08/04/2003 1:02:11 PM PDT by nevergore (Please return your seat trays and seat backs to their full and upright position....)
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To: nevergore
No religious beliefs...no admittance to BSA....

No argument from me there. My only argument was with the prior statement that "The BSA welcomes all beliefs." I'm guessing you meant to say, "The BSA welcomes all RELIGIOUS beliefs," right?

As an aside, the Encyclopedia Britannica calls Athiesm a central common core of Judasism? Wow. Any chance of you posting the entire definition? Thanks...
186 posted on 08/04/2003 1:15:13 PM PDT by Stone Mountain
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To: Kevin Curry
The anti-belief of atheism is not allowed in the BSA.

I have never disputed this. Not sure of what you are telling me here...
187 posted on 08/04/2003 1:15:48 PM PDT by Stone Mountain
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To: lowbridge
"U.S. District Judge Napoleon Jones Jr."

Napoleon Jones???????

188 posted on 08/04/2003 1:20:02 PM PDT by MEGoody
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To: Stone Mountain
On a purely practical level,
can you honestly see trying to maintain
a den of healthy rambunctious boys
without them being answerable to a
principle higher than themselves?

Especially as they get older, into the teen years.
The BSA definately has an exclusionary policy ...
it excludes those who do not profess responsibility to a higher authority.

Civilization and progress demands it.
189 posted on 08/04/2003 2:26:08 PM PDT by b9
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To: Stone Mountain; Kevin Curry
Atheism is an anti-belief--a militant anti-belief. Atheism is the anti-spirit behind much of the degeneration of American culture and the loss of freedoms that have taken place over the past century.
Atheism has already claimed our public forums for its exclusive anti-worship sites. Atheism is ruled by a very jealous anti-God.

The anti-belief of atheism is not allowed in the BSA. The BSA is very wise to resist its corrosive poison.
172 -KC-


Stone Mountain wrote:
"I have never disputed this. Not sure of what you are telling me here."


Kevin is telling you that he is religiously bigoted against those who don't see religion as he sees it. - He claims:
"Atheism is ruled by a very jealous anti-God."
An "anti-god" to kevin, is no doubt his vision of a 'devil'.

Thus, to KC, young boys raised by non-religious parents cannot become Boy Scout members, as their parents 'sins' inspired by a devil, are to be visted upon the son.

To me, this 'curryism' is anti-christian & anti-american, but then I'm cursed by my own inability to 'know' it all, which is called agnosticism.

Perhaps that's why I didn't quite make Eagle Scout back in '51. Maybe kevins God found me out.

190 posted on 08/04/2003 3:47:59 PM PDT by tpaine (Really, I'm trying to be Mr Nice Guy, but principles keep getting in me way.)
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To: swilhelm73
So he was appointed by Clinton when the Dems controlled the Senate too, and there was no check on far left judges being appointed.

There has virtually never been a check on far left judges being appointed. Unfortunately, Conservative Senators have never played hardball on this, in any way comparable to the way the Left has played it since 1930. The Leftward tilt of the Court, ever since Justice Roberts went over to the New Deal on some key votes in the late 1930s, has been no accident. Robert Bork was hardly the first judicial candidate who got "borked," on our side.

William Flax Return Of The Gods Web Site

191 posted on 08/04/2003 4:02:47 PM PDT by Ohioan
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To: geros
46 - all that and he still doesn't know how to read:

"Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

192 posted on 08/04/2003 8:50:54 PM PDT by XBob
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To: lowbridge
U.S. District Judge Napoleon Jones Jr. said the Scouts' lease of the 18-acre Camp Balboa in Balboa Park violates provisions in the U.S. and state constitutions governing the separation of church and state.

And what part of the SCOTUS Decision or Constitution does he not understand?

Let's see the Scouts have had it for how long after being given it for their use by a private citizen and how much improvement have they made, all done with private money?

Sounds to me like the judge needs to go back to law school on both constitutional law and tort law.

193 posted on 08/05/2003 5:12:35 PM PDT by SandRat (Duty, Honor, Country. What else needs to be said?)
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To: RonF
I beg to differ with you.

LDS is a christian religion with a majority of other Christian religions recognizing it as such. The chruch works with nearly every other Christian Church in America and other countries in humanatarian projects as well as many other projects. When another church burns down ours is often avaiable we have also met in other church's.

The Church has been widely persecuted sinse it's beginning. This un-christian myth is one of the ways to persecute us. Anyone telling you we are un-christian is just plain wrong. There is no more christ centered church in the world. Our name is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and he is our one true God.
194 posted on 08/05/2003 5:22:13 PM PDT by ImphClinton
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To: Stone Mountain
"the BSA welcomes all beliefs"

True. And I've seen nothing to the contrary.

195 posted on 08/10/2003 10:59:08 AM PDT by RonF
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To: ImphClinton
First, I'm not passing judgement on the LDS' beliefs. I'm not a theologian. However, what I do know is that in looking on the Vatican's website, the Methodists', the Southern Baptists', the Presbyterians', and through printed material from the Episcopalians, all I see is that these denominations don't accept LDS baptism and belifes as Christian. If you have information to the contrary I'd be interested.
196 posted on 08/10/2003 11:05:16 AM PDT by RonF
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To: RonF
"the BSA welcomes all beliefs""True. And I've seen nothing to the contrary. "

So you don't consider atheism a belief?
197 posted on 08/11/2003 10:09:14 AM PDT by Stone Mountain
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To: Stone Mountain
No, I don't consider atheism a belief. It is a lack of belief, or lack of faith.
198 posted on 08/11/2003 11:32:41 AM PDT by RonF
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To: RonF
Do you distinguish between beliefs that are religious and any other beliefs? In other words, when you say that athiesm is a lack of belief, it is actually a lack of religious belief, right? If an athiest believes that there is not sufficient evidence to believe in a God, is that not a belief?
199 posted on 08/11/2003 12:26:08 PM PDT by Stone Mountain
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To: Stone Mountain
Yes, I'd say that atheism is a lack of spiritual belief. Or, as the American Heritage Dictionary puts it, "1a. Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods. b. The doctrine that there is no God or gods." So you can say that an atheist believes that there is no God, and thus has a belief of a sort. The word "belief" in and of itself doesn't necessarily require that it be a religious belief, and my statement in that wise is inaccurate. Fair enough.

So let me then say that atheism is a lack of religious belief, a lack of belief that there is any supernatural power in the universe. Whereas what the BSA requires as a condition of membership is that one does believe in a higher power, a supernatural power that is beyond the material plane. It need not be incarnate. This would be religious belief, or religious faith.

An atheist, believing that there is no God due to lack of evidence, has a belief, but he or she has no faith (being belief in the face of a lack of evidence).

But while the BSA requires a religious belief, it does not require a belief in any particular religious faith. Thus, it is within the letter and spirit of the First Amendment, which is meant to prevent the State from supporting any particular church or faith over any other, and preventing it from interfering from anyone's profession of any religion. The BSA does not do so, and there should thus be no impediment with it's doing business with the State.

I expect the BSA to appeal this decision. I certainly hope they do. And I'll bet that if they go all the way to the Supremes with it, they'll win.

200 posted on 08/11/2003 12:59:24 PM PDT by RonF
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