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Frank Rich: The gospel according to Gibson
New York Times/International Herald Tribune ^ | 8/01/03 | Frank Rich

Posted on 08/01/2003 9:17:06 AM PDT by DPB101

"The Jews didn’t kill Christ," my stepfather was fond of saying. "They just worried him to death." Nonetheless, there was palpable relief in my Jewish household when the Vatican officially absolved us of the crime in 1965. At the very least, that meant we could go back to fighting among ourselves.

These days American Jews don’t have to fret too much about the charge of deicide — or didn’t, until Mel Gibson started directing a privately financed movie called "The Passion," about Jesus’ final 12 hours. Why worry now? The star himself has invited us to. Asked by Bill O’Reilly in January if his movie might upset ‘‘any Jewish people,’’ Gibson responded: "It may. It’s not meant to. I think it’s meant to just tell the truth."

"Anybody who transgresses has to look at their own part or look at their own culpability."

Fears about what this ‘‘truth’’ will be have been fanned by the knowledge that Gibson bankrolls a traditionalist Catholic church unaffiliated with the Los Angeles Roman Catholic Archdiocese.

Traditionalist Catholicism is the name given to a small splinter movement that rejects the Second Vatican Council — which, among other reforms, cleared the Jews of deicide.

The Wall Street Journal’s opinion pages, which have lavished praise on Gibson and his project, reported in March in an adulatory interview with the star that the film’s sources included the writings of two nuns: Mary of Agreda, a 17th-century Spaniard, and Anne Catherine Emmerich, an early-19th-century German.

Only after Rabbi Marvin Hier of the Simon Wiesenthal Center in Los Angeles, among others, spoke up about the nuns’ history of anti-Semitic writings did a Gibson flack disown this provenance.

Emmerich’s revelations include learning that Jews had strangled Christian children to procure their blood. It’s hard to imagine a scenario that bald turning up in ‘‘The Passion.’’ Indeed, it’s hard to imagine the movie being anything other than a flop in America, given that it has no major Hollywood stars and that its dialogue is in Aramaic and Latin (possibly without benefit of subtitles). Its real tinderbox effect could be abroad, where anti-Semitism has metastasized since Sept. 11, and where Gibson is arguably more of an icon (as his production company is named) than he is at home.

In recent weeks, Gibson has started screening a rough cut of his film to invited audiences, from evangelicals in Colorado Springs to religious leaders in Pennsylvania to celebrities in Washington. But the attendees are not always ecumenical. At the Washington screening, they included Peggy Noonan, Kate O’Beirne, Linda Chavez and David Kuo, the deputy director of the White House’s faith-based initiative.

The screening guest list did include a token Jew: that renowned Talmudic scholar Matt Drudge. No other Jewish members of the media were present, said one journalist who was there.

That journalist must remain unnamed as a result of signing a confidentiality agreement — a practice little seen at movie screenings. Since then, some of those present, including Drudge, have publicly expressed their enthusiasm for ‘‘The Passion.’’

If ‘‘The Passion’’ is kosher, couldn’t Gibson give Jews the same access to a Washington media screening, so they could see for themselves? Such inhospitality is not terribly Christian of him. One Jewish leader whose requests to see the film have been turned away is Abraham Foxman of the Anti-Defamation League.

‘‘If you tell everyone they won’t see it until it’s ready, O.K.,’’ Foxman said in a phone interview from Jerusalem. ‘‘But what Gibson’s done is preselect those who’ll be his supporters. If the movie is a statement of love, as he says it is, why not show it to you or me?’’

When I addressed this question last week to the star’s press representative, Alan Nierob, he told me that the ADL was being kept out because it had gone public with its concerns — as indeed it had, once Foxman’s letter to Gibson about ‘‘The Passion’’ failed to net a meeting with the filmmaker or a screening three months after it had been sent.

When I asked to see ‘‘The Passion,’’ Nierob said The New York Times was a ‘‘low priority’’ because The Times Magazine had run an ‘‘inaccurate’’ article in March in which Hutton Gibson, Mel Gibson’s father and a prominent traditionalist Catholic author, was quoted as saying that the Vatican Council was ‘‘a Masonic plot backed by the Jews’’ and that the Holocaust was a charade. But in fact, neither Hutton nor Mel Gibson — nor anyone else — has contacted the magazine to challenge the accuracy of a single sentence in the article in the four months since its publication.

Eventually, Gibson’s film will have to face audiences he doesn’t cherry-pick. We can only hope that the finished product will not resemble the screenplay that circulated this spring. That script — which the Gibson camp has said was stolen but which others say was leaked by a concerned member of the star’s own company — received thumbs down from a panel of nine Jewish and Roman Catholic scholars who read it. They found that Jews were presented as ‘‘bloodthirsty, vengeful and money-hungry,’’ reported The Jewish Week, which broke the story of the scholars’ report in June.

Perhaps ‘‘The Passion’’ bears little resemblance to that script. Either way, however, damage has been done: Jews have already been libeled by Gibson’s politicized rollout of his film. His game from the start has been to foment the old-as-Hollywood canard that the ‘‘entertainment elite’’ (which just happens to be Jewish) is gunning for his Christian movie.

But based on what? According to databank searches, not a single person, Jewish or otherwise, had criticized ‘‘The Passion’’ when Gibson went on O’Reilly’s show on Jan. 14 in January to defend himself against ‘‘any Jewish people’’ who might attack the film. Nor had anyone yet publicly criticized ‘‘The Passion’’ or Gibson by March 7, when The Wall Street Journal ran the interview in which the star again defended himself against Jewish critics who didn’t yet exist. (Even now, no one has called for censorship of the film — only for the right to see it and, if necessary, debate its content.)

Whether the movie holds Jews of two millenniums ago accountable for killing Christ or not, the star’s pre-emptive strategy is to portray contemporary Jews as crucifying Gibson. A similar animus can be found in a new book by one of Gibson’s most passionate defenders, the latest best seller published by the same imprint (Crown Forum) that gave us Ann Coulter’s ‘‘Treason.’’ In ‘‘Tales From the Left Coast,’’ James Hirsen writes, ‘‘The worldview of certain folks is seriously threatened by the combination of Christ’s story and Gibson’s talent.’’

Now who might those ‘‘certain folks’’ be? Since no one was criticizing ‘‘The Passion’’ when Hirsen wrote that sentence, you must turn elsewhere in the book to decode it. In one strange passage, the author makes a fetish of repeating Bob Dylan’s original name, Robert Zimmerman — a gratuitous motif in a tirade that is itself gratuitous in a book whose subtitle says its subject is ‘‘Hollywood stars.’’

Another chapter is about how ‘‘faith is often the subject of ridicule and negative portrayal’’ in Hollywood. One of the more bizarre examples Hirsen cites is ‘‘Sophie’s Choice,’’ in which ‘‘passages from the New Testament are quoted by Nazi officials in support of atrocities that were committed.’’

Now sectarian swords are being drawn. The National Association of Evangelicals, after a private screening of ‘‘The Passion,’’ released a statement last week saying, ‘‘Christians seem to be a major source of support for Israel,’’ and implying that such support could vanish if Jewish leaders ‘‘risk alienating two billion Christians over a movie.’’

Foxman says he finds that statement ‘‘obnoxious and offensive.’’

‘‘Here’s the first time we’ve heard that linkage: We support Israel, so shut up about anti-Semitism,’’ he added. ‘‘If that’s what support of Israel means, no thanks.’’

But the real question here is why Gibson and his minions would go out of their way to bait Jews and sow religious conflict, especially at this fragile historical moment. It’s enough to make you pray for the second coming of Charlton Heston.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial; Extended News; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: frankrich; gibson; passion; rich
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
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1 posted on 08/01/2003 9:17:06 AM PDT by DPB101
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To: DPB101
‘‘Here’s the first time we’ve heard that linkage: We support Israel, so shut up about anti-Semitism,’’ he added. ‘‘If that’s what support of Israel means, no thanks.’’

Foxman is a walking stereotype, a complete embarrassment.

Many journalists claim that Agreda and Emmerich are the basis of the movie script, but I have never heard Gibson reference anything other than the Gospels.

And I highly doubt that the florid ramblings of nun of the Counter-Reformation could produce a version of Christ's Passion that would be so palatable to American Evangelicals.

Put this on the mounting pile of hatchet jobs.

2 posted on 08/01/2003 9:26:21 AM PDT by wideawake (God bless our brave soldiers and their Commander in Chief)
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To: DPB101
Rich can't handle our truth.

Passion Plays are a Christian tradition and anyone using them to justify hating Jews is already a 'Jew Hater' that misses the whole point of Jesus's life.

3 posted on 08/01/2003 9:28:54 AM PDT by Mike Darancette (RATS: We're sorry Saddam.)
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To: DPB101
Here we go again - they "can't handle the truth." (to coin a phrase.)
4 posted on 08/01/2003 9:29:47 AM PDT by LiteKeeper
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To: DPB101
If "The Passion" is kosher, couldn’t Gibson give Jews the same access to a Washington media screening, so they could see for themselves? Such inhospitality is not terribly Christian of him. One Jewish leader whose requests to see the film have been turned away is Abraham Foxman of the Anti-Defamation League.

If this shmekel Abe Foxman hadn't raised such a big stink about this movie before anyone had ever seen it, then maybe his request to attend a screening would have been taken more seriously.

5 posted on 08/01/2003 9:30:06 AM PDT by Alberta's Child
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To: DPB101
If certain Jews do not want the story of Christ's death told for fear of putting them in a bad light. Then shut the hell up and bombarding us every other week by broadcasting a new or old take on the Nazi holocaust. It too is ancient history and makes the Germans of today look bad and prejudices the world against them.

What's the difference, some people were bad in both scenarios, not all, so move on and leave Mel Gibson alone. It appears artistic expression for some is only for the chosen ones.
6 posted on 08/01/2003 9:30:14 AM PDT by Ursus arctos horribilis ("It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees!" Emiliano Zapata 1879-1919)
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To: DPB101
Good bloomin' grief! Get the baby a hanky!!!!

A couple of points:
1) Since when does not allowing someone to see a movie called "jew-baiting"? Mel has gone OUT OF HIS WAY to calm the fears of those who think this movie is anti-semitic and these kind of hysterical denunciations of the movie and Mel before the movie has even been seen are not doing their cause one bit of good.
2) Evangelical's support of Israel is not going to wane because some cry-babies don't like a movie. Our support is theological, not circumstantial. If there is any bigotry going on here it is the unchallenged notion that Christians are naturally out to get the Jews. That we are somehow seeking to promote a film that will cause more Jews to be killed and if they don't like it then we are going to blackmail them by withdrawing support from Israel. How idiotic!

Finally, okay that's 3 points. Their whining and hysterics is ensuring that this movie will be a huge success in America. Thanks Abe, for helping the gospel be spread in ways in probably never would have if you hadn't made it your sole obsession to get Mel over telling the Bible account.
7 posted on 08/01/2003 9:31:47 AM PDT by DittoJed2
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To: DPB101
There is an old expression: "If you're taking flak that means you're over the target". Mel's movie is being hit heavily already, which to me means he's got something that speaks the truth and may change lives for Christ. The Devil doesn't care for that.
8 posted on 08/01/2003 9:39:28 AM PDT by Kharis13
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To: wideawake
Maybe Mel should take a que from some of Hollywood's other talent and whine that Frank is interfering with his right to free speech.
9 posted on 08/01/2003 9:42:17 AM PDT by Indianer (Where is John Galt?)
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To: DPB101
To steal a line posted by another Freeper a couple of days ago . . .

This movie sounds like it's going to be a great one -- all the right people are pissed off about it.

10 posted on 08/01/2003 9:42:33 AM PDT by Alberta's Child
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To: DPB101
"(Even now, no one has called for censorship of the film — only for the right to see it and, if necessary, debate its content.)"

THE RIGHT?!! Who does this little turd fascist think he is?!! You have no right, Mr. Rich, to see Gibson's film, you punk!

I think in this new century, we will see a concerted effort to rewrite the Gospels. They are, according to leftist Biblical scholars, inherently anti-semitic. Some will rewrite it according to p.c. standards. Hmmm, wonder which church will be first?
11 posted on 08/01/2003 9:42:45 AM PDT by macamadamia
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To: DPB101
It was my understanding that no Christians existed when Christ was put to death. There were jews, jewish followers of Christ (himself a jew), Romans and others. Christ came to die so we all could be forgiven. He came to die. It could not be changed. His death was everyones salvation, if only they believed. I see here no way to condemn jews for all of man's sins (the real reason God chose to send his son to die for us). If we change the story it is fiction. Mel is not trying to produce a work of fiction. Christ preached love and forgiveness on the cross...."They know not what they do"- There is no hate there. Some may hate because of his treatment, They are not true Christians.
12 posted on 08/01/2003 9:47:25 AM PDT by TAP ONLINE (Url is at top. Interesting article.)
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To: DPB101
Why do Jews try to pretend they didn't murder Jesus?

I don't know any Christians who would hate the Jews for doing what was God's will to save all of humanity.

13 posted on 08/01/2003 9:48:46 AM PDT by Verax
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To: DPB101
What garbage.

The Jews involved with Jesus's death were "bloodthirsty, vengeful and money-hungry"... get over it. They were the ruling elite who were threatened by Jesus's popularity and message. Mel is telling a true story that happened nearly 2,000 years ago... is he wrong for portraying mankind at the time as "primarily agrarian, without electricity and decidely lacking in modern conveniences"? No... that was the times and that is the truth... just as true is his rendering of Jesus's killers.

The hearts of His own people is also the greatest message of Christ. Jesus didn't come to save us because we were worth saving. He came to us when we were at our worst and willingly died to save even those who had him killed--simply out of His love for us. If Mel has captured that fact, then he has captured the essence.

Lastly, the Jews at the time were not held blameless by God Himself. Jesus told of the punishment that would befall His killers:

Luke 11:49 "For this reason also the wisdom of God said, 'I will send to them prophets and apostles, and some of them they will kill and some they will persecute, 50 so that the blood of all the prophets, shed since the foundation of the world, may be charged against this generation, 51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the house of God; yes, I tell you, it shall be charged against this generation.'

...and...

Luke 17:22 And He said to the disciples, "The days will come when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it. 23 "They will say to you, 'Look there! Look here!' Do not go away, and do not run after them. 24 "For just like the lightning, when it flashes out of one part of the sky, shines to the other part of the sky, so will the Son of Man be in His day. 25 "But first He must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.

And finally...

Luke 23:27 And following Him was a large crowd of the people, and of women who were mourning and lamenting Him. [on His way to Golgotha] 28 But Jesus turning to them said, "Daughters of Jerusalem, stop weeping for Me, but weep for yourselves and for your children.

Jesus was crucified somewhere in the vicinity of 30-33 AD. Jerusalem and the Temple were completely destroyed in 70 AD. It was the worst massacre in the history of the Jews. Truly the generation present for His death and their children suffered greatly as He said they would.

14 posted on 08/01/2003 9:51:26 AM PDT by pgyanke (Proudly stating the obvious since 2002)
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To: TAP ONLINE
I see here no way to condemn jews for all of man's sins

On another thread, several Christians mentioned they had never been taught Jews killed Christ. Nor had they heard any Christians say that. They first heard it from Jews and liberals.

That was my experience too. Regret to admit, I simply assumed Christians were making that claim on a regular basis.

15 posted on 08/01/2003 9:56:25 AM PDT by DPB101
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To: DittoJed2; hellinahandcart; AppyPappy; Thinkin' Gal
Another terrific piece by Rank Fish.
16 posted on 08/01/2003 10:12:58 AM PDT by sauropod ("Come over here and make me. I dare you. You little fruitcake, you little fruitcake.")
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To: DPB101
How could the New York Times be permitted to view this film?

The Enquirer would insist on equal rights on the basis of trustworthiness.

17 posted on 08/01/2003 10:15:08 AM PDT by Taiwan Bocks
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To: DPB101
Rich should read, for its research value only, of course, all of Matthew Chapter 27. But he won't (/sarcasm) - its New Testament. Catholics aren't taught to believe all Jews killed Jesus, just the Jewish leaders who were religious when it counted - in public. Not all Jews, just that power wielding group.

When we talk about the Jews who had Jesus put to death, it doesn't mean modern day Jews. To deny that Jews had Jesus put to death, is to mutate the Bible and history.

Jews have already been libeled by Gibson’s politicized rollout of his film. His game from the start has been to foment the old-as-Hollywood canard that the ‘‘entertainment elite’’ (which just happens to be Jewish) is gunning for his Christian movie.

Wow. Libeled?? (Call the lawyers..) His game?? Yet another article attacking the movie, but hey, they aren't gunning for it or anything. Nooo.

18 posted on 08/01/2003 10:16:57 AM PDT by fortunecookie (longtime lurker and new poster)
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To: Verax
Jews didn't crucify Christ alone, it was 50-50 with us gentiles.
19 posted on 08/01/2003 10:17:19 AM PDT by Taiwan Bocks
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To: DPB101
Indeed, it’s hard to imagine the movie being anything other than a flop in America, given that it has no major Hollywood stars and that its dialogue is in Aramaic and Latin (possibly without benefit of subtitles).
Keep dreaming, Frank : )
20 posted on 08/01/2003 10:21:09 AM PDT by eastsider
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To: Taiwan Bocks
Just read Romans did it. Pepe's Apizza isn't getting one more dime from me. No other Italian restaraunts are either. It's Kung Pao Chicken and Moo Goo Gai Pan take-out from now on.
21 posted on 08/01/2003 10:25:39 AM PDT by DPB101
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To: DPB101
But the real question here is why Gibson and his minions would go out of their way to bait Jews and sow religious conflict, especially at this fragile historical moment. It’s enough to make you pray for the second coming of Charlton Heston.

Wow, he's really pissed. Another whiner insisting he (and his people) are being insulted and using insults to make his point. Since when is preaching the Gospel equivalent to baiting Jews and sowing religious conflict??? Try a search in Amazon - there exists modern day, recent books by Jews denouncing Jesus and proving he is not the Messiah and worse. Where's the outrage? Wow. Would anyone believe or care that he is Catholic/Christian baiting?? Fragile historical moment?? Did I miss something? Are Christians at war with Jews??

Godspeed, Mel!! Everyone go see this film.

22 posted on 08/01/2003 10:27:24 AM PDT by fortunecookie (longtime lurker and new poster)
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To: Taiwan Bocks
Jews didn't crucify Christ alone, it was 50-50 with us gentiles.

Uh, no.

Jesus, a Jew, was betrayed by Judas, a Jew, to the Sanhedrin, Jewish authority. When the Sanhedrin wanted to put Him to death, they turned to the Roman authorities since the Sanhedrin had no death penalty. The Roman authorities tried to offer Jesus back to the Jews and they chose Barrabas instead.

There are a couple of principles at work here. One is that Jesus came for the Jew, first, and the gentile, second. Even into the NT, everywhere they went, the Apostles preached of Jesus to the Jews first and, when rejected, to the gentiles. It's a repeated pattern. Jesus was killed by the Romans only as proxy for the Jews.

Second, as I posted above, the Jews paid a horrible price for their conduct. Just as it would have been better for Judas had he never been born, the Jews were punished for their part in Jesus's crucifixion. Yes, it was part of God's plan that Jesus had to suffer and die. However, it was still against His commandments and Moses's code that He should be killed. It's a bit of a paradox but it's also the heart of the predestination vs foreknowledge argument.

The Jews today aren't the targets of a film about 2,000 year old history. The Jews of then aren't either. If telling the truth is a "hit piece" then history has been outlawed.

23 posted on 08/01/2003 10:50:11 AM PDT by pgyanke (Proudly stating the obvious since 2002)
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To: fortunecookie; arasina; HISSKGB; Liz; nopardons; dix; 1rudeboy; Ann Archy
Maybe Frank Rich is afraid people will see the film and stop buying the New York Times.

The scary thing about Rich is millions of people are reading his column today. Many of them are delighted with it.

What liberal will write the next hit piece?

Molly Ivins? Joe Conason? Alan Dershowitz?

Maybe we should have a contest. Review the movie as Molly Ivins would. Or Maureen Dowd. Their styles are so predictable. A Noam Chomsky or Lyndon LaRouche parody review would be fun.

24 posted on 08/01/2003 10:54:24 AM PDT by DPB101
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To: DPB101
What liberal will write the next hit piece? Molly Ivins? Joe Conason? Alan Dershowitz?

Although a lot of liberals will certainly write hit pieces, I'll be more interested in how the Gary Bauer types handle this hot potatoe.
25 posted on 08/01/2003 11:00:24 AM PDT by mr.pink
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To: DPB101
You're joking, right?
26 posted on 08/01/2003 11:04:56 AM PDT by ffusco (Maecilius Fuscus,Governor of Longovicium , Manchester, England. 238-244 AD)
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To: DPB101
Yawn....some else screaming anti-semite at the drop of a hat. Unfortunately, some freepers are guilty of this too.
27 posted on 08/01/2003 11:07:09 AM PDT by Austin Willard Wright
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To: pgyanke
The Jews today aren't the targets of a film about 2,000 year old history. The Jews of then aren't either. If telling the truth is a "hit piece" then history has been outlawed.

Exactly.

So what if they did? Ok, so Jews had Jesus put to death. Someone earlier mentioned the Germans and the holocaust. Christians had the crusades. Americans slaughtered native americans.

There is none without sin, not one. Rich' and other's complaints and shouts are but noise and distraction. They hope they are successful in discrediting this movie, Mel, and Christ as well. Notice the reference to some obscure "splinter" of Catholicism at the beginning. Hmmmm. EVERYONE watch this movie. You won't enjoy it, but you WILL be moved.

28 posted on 08/01/2003 11:14:38 AM PDT by sayfer bullets
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To: DPB101
The scary thing about Rich is millions of people are reading his column today. Many of them are delighted with it.

Reading only that, believing it, sharing it with others, sharing the hat - er - love. Not reading any other sources. Misled, drawing erroneous conclusions, intentionally or not. And the delight, oh the delight.

Maybe we should have a contest. Review the movie as Molly Ivins would. Or Maureen Dowd. Their styles are so predictable.

Hee hee. That could be fun. We could also have 'them' review "The Magdalene Sisters". Turnabout is fair play.

29 posted on 08/01/2003 11:15:00 AM PDT by fortunecookie (longtime lurker and new poster)
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To: DPB101
Nice idea for a contest among the "barf alert brigade." LOL.
30 posted on 08/01/2003 11:38:58 AM PDT by Liz
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To: DPB101
Rich gets in that dig about Charlton Heston. As a liberal, Rich's a gun control zealot. The second coming of Charlton Heston, indeed. Bwahahahaha!!!
31 posted on 08/01/2003 11:55:30 AM PDT by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives On In My Heart Forever)
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To: Liz; ffusco; fortunecookie
Look what I found!
The Passion; Eschatological Racism or Hermeneutic Oppression?
By Noam Chomsky

With regard to the Mel Gibson's The Passion, since what is called The Passion is largely unfamiliar to me, let me replace it by "X," and see if I understand the argument against X. Let's consider several kinds of properties attributed to X:

First category. X is dominated by "the white male gender." It is "limited by cultural, racial and gender biases," and "establishes and perpetuates social organization with hidden political, social and economic purposes." X is "thoroughly embedded in capitalist colonialism," and doesn't "end racism or disrupt the patriarchy." X has been invoked by Christians to bring people to "embrace regimentation, murderous collectivization, and worse"; though no one mentions it, X has been used by Nazi ideologists for the same ends. X's dominance "has gone unchallenged." It has been "used to create new forms of control mediated through political and economic power." Ludicrous claims about X have been made by "state systems" which "used X for astoundingly destructive purposes...to create new forms of control mediated through political and economic power as it emerged in each system."

Conclusion: there is "something inherently wrong" with X. We must reject or transcend it, replacing it by something else; and we must instruct poor and suffering people to do so likewise. More generally, we must take a vow of silence and induce the world's victims to do so likewise since language and its use typically have all these properties, facts too well-known to discuss.1


32 posted on 08/01/2003 12:17:17 PM PDT by DPB101
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To: DPB101
LOL. You're a prophet in your own time, DPB.
33 posted on 08/01/2003 12:20:37 PM PDT by Liz
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To: DPB101
Frank Rich is a vicious little piece of work, isn't he?

If he genuinely wants people to stop "hating" Jews, he would do well to keep his own nasty mouth shut and stop provoking such a reaction!

34 posted on 08/01/2003 12:38:03 PM PDT by Gritty
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To: DPB101; TAP ONLINE
On another thread, several Christians mentioned they had never been taught Jews killed Christ.

My background is mainstream Church of Christ in a small town in Oklahoma,
graduated from a college affiliated with that church body...
...and the view I always got from the pulpit and professors was that Jesus
was killed because he was viewed as a threat by powerful people: the Pharisees and the Roman
occupiers.
And that the events leading up to his death were good to study not only in a religional
sense, but about the abuse of power by individuals and institutions.

I never heard a "the Jews killed Jesus" as a rant or as a scholarly statement.
And that Jesus and his immediate followers were Jews was always understood.

Call me fundamentalist, but I can't find anyplace in the New Testament that said
for followers of Christ to be other than civil with Jews, Romans, Greeks,
or any of their neighbors.
35 posted on 08/01/2003 12:45:02 PM PDT by VOA
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To: goldstategop
The girly boys at the Times have now appointed themselves theologians. They've even constructed their own wink-wink commandments.
36 posted on 08/01/2003 3:26:25 PM PDT by HISSKGB
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To: DPB101
Oh, I can hardly stomach this, so soon after dinner. Blech.

He writes:

"the white male gender." It is "limited by cultural, racial and gender biases," and "establishes and perpetuates social organization with hidden political, social and economic purposes."

Doesn't this describe what he is doing exactly?? Isn't he writing about himself?? Oh what self loathing he must posess.

37 posted on 08/01/2003 4:14:48 PM PDT by fortunecookie (longtime lurker and new poster)
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To: DPB101
Another dharma issued by Chomsky. He has been saying for years that America is evil. Now he explaims why...America is under the influence of those evil Christians.
38 posted on 08/01/2003 4:26:42 PM PDT by HISSKGB
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To: DPB101
I'm sorry, but other than to say that Rich and his group wrote the book on being victims, and the truth is the truth, I'd better just shut up.
39 posted on 08/01/2003 8:11:21 PM PDT by dix
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To: fortunecookie; HISSKGB
Took the liberty of changing a few words in a Chomsky rant to make it apply to The Passion. Forget what he was talking about. There is a footnote link at the end which takes you to the original rant. All the same thing with him tho...everything is evil.Everyone is stupid. Except Chomsky.
40 posted on 08/01/2003 10:19:40 PM PDT by DPB101
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To: Taiwan Bocks; pgyanke
"Jews didn't crucify Christ alone, it was 50-50 with us gentiles."
Basically we crucified Christ because we sin and God the Father knew there was no way we could get to His prescence without the shedding of innocent blood.And who more innocent than God himself in the form of man as Jesus.How Jesus got to the cross 2000 years ago and who did the deed is just...well....... The way God had it planned to save us from our sins.To keep me on the right track I tell myself I crucified Christ because of my sin..
Regards
41 posted on 08/02/2003 5:15:07 AM PDT by Rightly Biased (<><)
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To: DPB101; Cachelot; SJackson; Catspaw; dennisw
Took the liberty of changing a few words in a Chomsky rant to make it apply to The Passion. Forget what he was talking about. There is a footnote link at the end which takes you to the original rant. All the same thing with him tho...everything is evil.Everyone is stupid. Except Chomsky.

Not even close. Why don't you address, specifically, the issues Frank Rich raises in this column? Can you? Or do you just post articles on this subject as bait, to engender animosity toward Jews? By the way, are you aware that Frank Rich is very good friends with Cal Thomas, the Christian Conservative icon? That is not to defend everything Frank Rich has written, but he's no Noam Chomsky. Now how about some thoughtful debate regarding this column, and not just mud-slinging...

42 posted on 08/02/2003 5:30:41 AM PDT by veronica (http://www.petitiononline.com/KN50711/petition.html - Confirm Daniel Pipes to USIP ......sign this!)
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To: DPB101
And further, why is it you focus only on Jews who have written about this movie, but none of the Catholics who have raised concerns?

Why not a debate about Mel Gibsons enemies in the Church, and his opposition to Vatican II? I guess the next thing that will happen is you attempt to connect Jews who have raised concerns about this film to the Russian mafia, eh?

43 posted on 08/02/2003 5:34:29 AM PDT by veronica (http://www.petitiononline.com/KN50711/petition.html - Confirm Daniel Pipes to USIP ......sign this!)
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To: veronica; DPB101; Admin Moderator
Geez... we all know that this critter is LarryLied, down to the minutest idiosyncrasies. So does the admin, I think, despite his protestations. But like the last go-round, there seems to be some sort of protection in place.

It'll break sooner or later, of course. In the meantime, it's pretty ugly.

44 posted on 08/02/2003 5:48:58 AM PDT by Cachelot (~ In waters near you ~)
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To: veronica
Mud-slinging? Frank Rich is a Bush-hating, Republican-despising liberal lunatic. Everyone knows that. I don't care who he is friends with. My position and I believe the position of most who reply on these threads is that Mel and anyone else should be allowed to make a movie about their faith in peace. Mel didn't start this. He told everyone that if he ever offended anyone, he would like to know so he can make amends. The liberal media swoons over movies and art which mock the Christian faith. We heard over and over how trying to stop an exhibit depicting the Virgin Mary smeared with dung was "censorship." Now that a movie made by a person of faith is produced, the media trashes it.

Btw...Mel's father is a nut. But I would never had known that had you not mentioned it on almost every Passion and liberals in the media reported it.

EOM and end of discussion.

45 posted on 08/02/2003 6:10:58 AM PDT by DPB101
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To: Ursus arctos horribilis
If certain Jews do not want the story of Christ's death told for fear of putting them in a bad light. Then shut the hell up and bombarding us every other week by broadcasting a new or old take on the Nazi holocaust.

Please print up a set of rules for us Jews to follow so that we don't offend you.

46 posted on 08/02/2003 6:19:57 AM PDT by sakic
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To: veronica
Now how about some thoughtful debate regarding this column....

First I see many thoughtful comments on this thread. Second, there's nothing thoughtful about this POS column or Rich himself. He's a poisoned little moron.

47 posted on 08/02/2003 6:22:43 AM PDT by AAABEST
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To: DPB101
End of discussion...

Not. :)

Mel Gibson, like any other artist, must, eventually, face the public and the critics. There is nothing sacrosanct about any movie, book, painting, etc. all of which are fodder for debate and criticism, unless of course you are a Stalinist, and don't appreciate that in an open society, debate is healthy. You a Stalinist? Martin Scorcese did not escape scrutiny when he made a movie about Jesus, and he didn't whine about it either. He defended his point of view, and let his work stand on it's own.

Once this film hits the marketplace, and non-handpicked audiences have a look at it, we'll all know what it is and isn't. In the meantime, it appears to have been adopted by anti-semites, who seem to be panting with the hope that the film will be anti-semitic.

48 posted on 08/02/2003 6:24:21 AM PDT by veronica (http://www.petitiononline.com/KN50711/petition.html - Confirm Daniel Pipes to USIP ......sign this!)
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To: Ursus arctos horribilis
If certain Jews do not want the story of Christ's death told for fear of putting them in a bad light. Then shut the hell up and bombarding us every other week by broadcasting a new or old take on the Nazi holocaust. It too is ancient history and makes the Germans of today look bad and prejudices the world against them.

Interesting.

49 posted on 08/02/2003 6:25:08 AM PDT by Diago
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To: Verax
Why do Jews try to pretend they didn't murder Jesus?

Why do Christians pretend that they didn't put Hitler in power?

Who were those Roman fellows?

I don't know any Christians who would hate the Jews for doing what was God's will to save all of humanity.

Read some history books and maybe you'll be able to find some.

50 posted on 08/02/2003 6:26:21 AM PDT by sakic
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