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White-collar jobs may not be back soon
Dallas Morning News via Boston Globe ^ | August 3, 2003 | Angela Shah

Posted on 08/03/2003 2:37:02 AM PDT by sarcasm

Edited on 04/13/2004 2:10:34 AM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

But those very same forces are now serving to prolong workers' misery. More college-educated executives and managers have been cut from payrolls this last recession, compared with previous ones. And it's taking them longer to find new work.

More worrisome to them, however, is that the jobs may never come back.


(Excerpt) Read more at boston.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: freetrade; jobmarket
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1 posted on 08/03/2003 2:37:03 AM PDT by sarcasm
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To: harpseal
ping
2 posted on 08/03/2003 2:37:38 AM PDT by sarcasm (Tancredo 2004)
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To: sarcasm
How would you feel having your X ray read by some indian or russian,deciding if you have cancer or heart blockage?

''Even the medical sector is being affected because a lot of radiology is being read overseas,'' said Irwin Kellner, a professor of economics at Hofstra University in New York. ''They're transmitted back and forth on the Internet.''
3 posted on 08/03/2003 3:45:35 AM PDT by wiseone
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To: sarcasm
I firmly believe that this is going to be a major election issue, and we had best get to work on fixing the problem!
4 posted on 08/03/2003 3:51:58 AM PDT by neutrino (Oderint dum metuant: Let them hate us, so long as they fear us.)
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To: neutrino
If this was happening in any of the highly unionized indusries there would be blood on the streets.
5 posted on 08/03/2003 4:04:10 AM PDT by tom paine 2
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To: sarcasm; Willie Green
In the long run, more efficient companies mean more prosperity for Americans, economists say.

This has nothing to do with legal American workers. It means the stockbrokers and the bankers will get more money, that's all.

6 posted on 08/03/2003 4:05:56 AM PDT by raybbr
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To: raybbr
There is now a much more widespread expectation of strong economic growth. As many as 52% of respondents expect FY ’04 gross domestic product (GDP) to grow at 6.5%. A significant 37% even expected the GDP growth to hit the 7% figure. This is much higher than the growth recorded in recent years. Some research agencies have already put out GDP projections of 6 to 6.5% for FY ’04. This is the lastest figures on the GDP for next year. If we hit over 6% (low end) the country will be at full employment. It always happens in a booming ecomony (Bill Clinton's 20 million jobs). I know it is hard to tell someone who is unemployed to have a little patience, but soon, real soon, it will be an employee market again.

Next, do you realize that half the people on this planet never touched a computer screen? Do you realize that there is an explosive technology boom (telecommunications & Information Technology) happening worldwide? Do you realize that it would be stupid for American companies not to have a presence overseas to take advantage? Soon, the world will not be able to meet the demand for I/T professionals and require American solutions.

Also, American companies are in a business cycle where they must upgrade their I/T to survive. They held back too long due the to terrorist threat and their aging equipment is degrading. Look for renewed spending as the cash flows in.

7 posted on 08/03/2003 4:29:00 AM PDT by BushCountry (To the last, I will grapple with Democrats. For hate's sake, I spit my last breath at Liberals.)
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To: raybbr
"This has nothing to do with legal American workers."

BS! It has everything to do with "legal" American workers. It means that "legal" American workers can get goods and services at lower cost produced by more efficient companies rather than having to pay higher costs to inefficient companies providing inferior goods and services.

"It means the stockbrokers and the bankers will get more money, that's all."

Oh, yes, the "greedy capitalists". You do realize this sounds rather "Marxist"?

8 posted on 08/03/2003 4:30:38 AM PDT by DugwayDuke
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To: BushCountry; Willie Green; harpseal; Dutchy
Stop and think a little here!!

What makes you think it has to be an American Solution they seek??

We are not dealing with people living in grass huts and driving rickshaws!

We are dealing with human beings that can think just as much as me or you, and in some cass have better educations, and also a work force that is twice the size of our own to select the best and brightest from to choose who does what and when...

And we already gave them the hardware to do the work with, we trained them to do the thinking and how, and we sent the the contracts to make the capital investment with...

Why on Earth do they need to come here for anything anymore?

Name one thing we do here that we havent given away already?

Name one technology that is not in immediate danger of being outsourced or off-shored? The only one I can think of is Nuclear Submarines!
9 posted on 08/03/2003 4:55:16 AM PDT by RaceBannon
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To: sarcasm
If you are a paper-pusher, you better learn some other skills fast. White collar jobs are disappearing from corporations very quickly as software applications handle just about everything from payroll to parts ordering.

The change in my company over the past 15 years has been phenomenal. When I started there, my branch office had a half dozen "admin" staff, dispatchers, parts clerks, three managers (one for sales, one for admin and one for technical) and three supervisors (one for sales and two for technical).

Today, there are only two of those people left. The sales manager and myself (I'm the tech manager). Technicians are self-dispatched as service calls come in over the web and page out. Billing is mostly automated. I enter the technicians expenses into a software program and checks are automatically cut for them and mailed out. Parts and supplies are automatically replenished and shipped to the technicians directly - all I do is review the orders on-screen. About a hundred other innovations I won't even bother to go into.

But our total staffing continues to decrease even as our revenues and gross margin increases year after year. Bascially the way it is in my company, if you aren't in the field selling or out in the field turning a screwdriver, your job is in jeopardy. Even I'm not taking my management job for granted. I've already gotten certified on Microsoft systems and keep myself up to date technically just in case it is decided that branch managers are no longer needed.

10 posted on 08/03/2003 5:03:04 AM PDT by SamAdams76 (Back in boot camp! 239.6 (-60.4))
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To: neutrino
I firmly believe that this is going to be a major election issue, and we had best get to work on fixing the problem!

The only way to fix this is to reward, not punish companies into keeping jobs here.

11 posted on 08/03/2003 5:07:56 AM PDT by finnman69 (!)
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To: clamper1797; sarcasm; BrooklynGOP; A. Pole; Zorrito; GiovannaNicoletta; Caipirabob; Marauder; ...
ping
12 posted on 08/03/2003 5:08:32 AM PDT by harpseal (Stay well - Stay safe - Stay armed - Yorktown)
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To: SamAdams76
I've already gotten certified on Microsoft systems and keep myself up to date technically just in case it is decided that branch managers are no longer needed.

You will then find yourself up against a whole bunch of experienced unemployed IT people competeing for jobs that have been offshored.

13 posted on 08/03/2003 5:13:01 AM PDT by harpseal (Stay well - Stay safe - Stay armed - Yorktown)
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To: DugwayDuke
Oh, yes, the "greedy capitalists". You do realize this sounds rather "Marxist"?

Whatever it sounds like, it's true.

Why can't you buy stocks directly from a company? Why do you have to go through the stock market? Why do banks pay 1.5% for money and we are paying 12-26% for the money we borrow? Don't tell me there isn't a mass gouging of the American people by the money industry. Besides, it's all on paper. Isn't that what caused the collapse of 1999? No tangible assests. Everything was on paper and when buying paper with paper collapsed so did our economy.

14 posted on 08/03/2003 5:14:52 AM PDT by raybbr
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To: DugwayDuke
BS! It has everything to do with "legal" American workers. It means that "legal" American workers can get goods and services at lower cost produced by more efficient companies rather than having to pay higher costs to inefficient companies providing inferior goods and services.

You are ignoring the currency controls, OPIC and many other pgovernment policies that are encouraging the deindustrialization of the USA.

Yes, the "greedy capitalists". You do realize this sounds rather "Marxist"?

Now since you are pushing the internationalist line which is Marxist I would not be criticiszing those who are noting the short term beneficiaries of these policies.

15 posted on 08/03/2003 5:16:22 AM PDT by harpseal (Stay well - Stay safe - Stay armed - Yorktown)
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To: raybbr
Why can't you buy stocks directly from a company?

You can.

16 posted on 08/03/2003 5:17:29 AM PDT by finnman69 (!)
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To: harpseal
I know that, but I was referring to a technical job within my own company should my management job be eliminated. I doubt I'd find very much outside my own company at this point. It's bad out there.


17 posted on 08/03/2003 5:17:39 AM PDT by SamAdams76 (Back in boot camp! 239.6 (-60.4))
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To: RaceBannon
Name one technology that is not in immediate danger of being outsourced or off-shored? The only one I can think of is Nuclear Submarines!

And Walmart has driven most of the "Mom and Pop" nuclear submarime manufacturers out of business!

18 posted on 08/03/2003 5:20:50 AM PDT by Bluntpoint
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To: sarcasm
Labor is ''a mouse click away, more skilled and at one-fifth of the cost,'' said Rudy Puryear, a partner with Bain & Co. in Chicago, who advises clients on such off-shoring issues. ''There's been an acceleration of that over the last three or four years.''

Well, there you have it. The offshoring industry's new mantra to spin their selling-out of Americans. Americans are too stupid to hold technical jobs.

19 posted on 08/03/2003 5:24:59 AM PDT by Doohickey
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To: Bluntpoint
American companies are in a business cycle where they must upgrade their I/T to survive. They held back too long due the to terrorist threat and their aging equipment is degrading. Look for renewed spending as the cash flows in.  Below is the listing for the fastest growing jobs. 

Job Search - Job Listing - Fastest Growing Jobs [1998-2008]

These doom and gloom posts are so funny. There is a very good chance that we will experience a GDP of 6.5% or greater, millions of jobs will be created as people and companies open their purse strings, and all you can say is but, but...

Kind of like the guy who wins a million dollars, but complains that the guy that gave him the check had shifty eyes. The refusal to see the possibility of something good is an curious phenomena that is ingrained in these posts. The world is changing, things are getting better, Americans are a strong and resourceful people, the nation will survive and still be the envy of the world.   Have faith in America and in the American people that make this country so great, thank you very much.
 

20 posted on 08/03/2003 5:27:23 AM PDT by BushCountry (To the last, I will grapple with Democrats. For hate's sake, I spit my last breath at Liberals.)
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To: Bluntpoint
The only one I can think of is Nuclear Submarines! Damn, and here I thought my 13 years of submarine experience was wasted. I can't wait until nuclear submarine crews are privatized so I can leverage my skills!
21 posted on 08/03/2003 5:27:49 AM PDT by Doohickey
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To: sarcasm
Improvements in technology mean that software code or tax forms can be written or processed in India or elsewhere -- at a substantial savings.

I can't even begin to describe what a phenomenally bad idea the outsourcing of tax return preparation to India is. There aren't many kinds of financial information that are more confidential and/or sensitive than that needed to prepare even a relatively simple return. And we've decided to ship this job off to people working half way around the world. It's a completely idiotic business decision. Have we lost our common sense?

22 posted on 08/03/2003 5:36:50 AM PDT by independentmind
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To: BushCountry
The people who've been dumped are mostly guys who are well into their forties. If they don't catch on somewhere right away, they are finished. Hardly anyone in his forties who has been unemployed for over six months will ever get a real job again.

Whether the industries come back or not, those people are screwed. They are also angry. These are votes that should have been guaranteed for the pubbies. At best, they will stay home.

If the dems are smart enough to nominate a percieved moderate who addresses this issue, they will win, no matter how awful their "plan" is.
23 posted on 08/03/2003 5:41:12 AM PDT by the gillman@blacklagoon.com
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To: finnman69
How? I have never heard of this before. Do I call them and say I want to buy shares?
24 posted on 08/03/2003 5:42:36 AM PDT by raybbr
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To: Bluntpoint
"And Walmart has driven most of the "Mom and Pop" nuclear submarime manufacturers out of business!"

LOL...good one!
regards,
25 posted on 08/03/2003 5:45:27 AM PDT by Thunder 6
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To: raybbr
"Why can't you buy stocks directly from a company? Why do you have to go through the stock market?"

You can. It's called a DRIP (Dividend Reinvestment Program). Most of the large companies offer such programs.

"Why do banks pay 1.5% for money and we are paying 12-26% for the money we borrow?"

That's what's known as "stupidity". Get off the credit cards, pay cash, you'll live better.

"Don't tell me there isn't a mass gouging of the American people by the money industry. Besides, it's all on paper. Isn't that what caused the collapse of 1999? No tangible assests. Everything was on paper and when buying paper with paper collapsed so did our economy."

And, what do you propose to stop the "greedy capitalists" from "gouging the American people"? Will more regulation satisfy you? Surely, you must realize this sounds like something out of "Das Kapital"?
26 posted on 08/03/2003 5:49:29 AM PDT by DugwayDuke
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To: sarcasm
Somehow or another, we'll create jobs that can't be exported overseas.''

Only through protectionist legislation, This has been tried before. It always leads to even worse long-term problems.

27 posted on 08/03/2003 5:56:03 AM PDT by pabianice
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To: harpseal
"You are ignoring the currency controls, OPIC and many other pgovernment policies that are encouraging the deindustrialization of the USA."

Yes, it's all a "conspiracy".

"Now since you are pushing the internationalist line which is Marxist..."

Please, don't give me the "Karl Marx" was a "free trader" trash. I think that was rather well demolished by someone else on another thread yesterday.

"I would not be criticiszing those who are noting the short term beneficiaries of these policies."

Yes, it's all a conspiracy by the "greedy capitalists to exploit the working class."

28 posted on 08/03/2003 5:56:29 AM PDT by DugwayDuke
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To: Doohickey
Americans are too stupid to hold technical jobs.

That's why Americans show 'em how not to launch rockets into villages, how to {insert technology here}. I have seen the enemy and he is NOT us.

29 posted on 08/03/2003 5:57:32 AM PDT by Johnny Crab
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To: the gillman@blacklagoon.com
"The people who've been dumped are mostly guys who are well into their forties. If they don't catch on somewhere right away, they are finished. Hardly anyone in his forties who has been unemployed for over six months will ever get a real job again."

Hogwash! I was "dumped" in 1994 at the age of 48. I was unemployed for over seven months. I took a job 2000 miles away at 75 percent the pay. I've been propmoted twice and I'm making fifty percent more now than I was before I was "dumped". BTW, I also moved back to the area where I lived before too.
30 posted on 08/03/2003 6:02:27 AM PDT by DugwayDuke
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To: the gillman@blacklagoon.com
Whether the industries come back or not, those people are screwed. They are also angry. These are votes that should have been guaranteed for the pubbies. At best, they will stay home

I don't know about that. A lot of these jobs are being outsourced in Gore states, CA, NJ, NY, IL, WA, etc. so a lot of these people probably voted for Gore anyway, for such touchy feely issues as enivro wackoism.

Also the estimates I see is that 500,000 will be outsourced so that means %0.5 of the total 2000 electorate effected and we don't how many have moved on and started their own business or went into other postions.

So you see you just can't use blanket statements like you did in the above italicized passage. It's makes for fiery rhetoric but not good analysis, but that may be your goal on FR anyway.

31 posted on 08/03/2003 6:03:36 AM PDT by Dane
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To: independentmind
Repeat after me

MANAGEMENT HAS NO COMMON SENSE!

MANAGEMENT'S ONLY MISSION IS TO INCREASE NEXT QUARTER'S PROFIT!

All that "we're one big family here", "your folks are our folks", etc....corp-speak is nothing but BS. Learn it, know it, understand it, live with it.

Feel better?

32 posted on 08/03/2003 6:05:05 AM PDT by Johnny Crab
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To: neutrino
there is some momentum building on this, more papers are doing stories about it (maybe they are reading FR!) and realize it is a huge issue that could potential be the gamebreaker for Bush. Bush and Rove needs to get ahead of this issue now, there is still time.
33 posted on 08/03/2003 6:06:46 AM PDT by oceanview
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To: finnman69
you have to do both, reward and punish. punish some with taxation, and take the money you get from them and reward the others.
34 posted on 08/03/2003 6:08:29 AM PDT by oceanview
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To: Doohickey
>>Labor is ''a mouse click away, more skilled and at one-fifth of the cost,'' said Rudy Puryear, a partner with Bain & Co. in Chicago, who advises clients on such off-shoring issues. ''There's been an acceleration of that over the last three or four years.''

>Well, there you have it. The offshoring industry's new mantra to spin their selling-out of Americans. Americans are too stupid to hold technical jobs.

This mantra is a lie in more ways that one. Yes the end employee in Inda may make that much, but the service bureau is not passing those saving on. They are basically just laying in a low bid a 20% below everyone else. The savings realized aren't all that tremendous.

What is the answer? One thing is the days of casually sharing technical info are over. If I figure something out, it remains proprietary and people will have to pay to learn about it.

35 posted on 08/03/2003 6:12:19 AM PDT by Dialup Llama
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To: sarcasm
>''The bulk of their costs is people,'' said Donald Hicks, a professor of political economy at the University of Texas at Dallas. ''Anything that reduces people-related costs is a boon to the bottom line.''

This never seems to include CEO and executive pay. People who are, in their view, the only employees who cannot be outsourced and replaced.

36 posted on 08/03/2003 6:13:51 AM PDT by Dialup Llama
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To: Dane
don't count on it.

its not just the actual people who lose their jobs, but all their co-workers too. if 100 people on an IT staff see 10 of their co-workers jobs offshored, its not just those 10 people who will vote Dem, but the other 90 co-workers who see the handwriting on the wall will also.
37 posted on 08/03/2003 6:14:06 AM PDT by oceanview
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To: sarcasm
S, The highly placed sycophants {bootlickers/Igors/asskissers} now know how top management feels about them. Another sector awakened. Peace and love, George.
38 posted on 08/03/2003 6:15:39 AM PDT by George Frm Br00klyn Park (FREEDOM!!!!!!!!!)
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To: RaceBannon
racebannon wrote:
Name one technology that is not in immediate danger of being outsourced or off-shored?

OK, I'll try: plumbing. Yes, plumbing (laughs)

Folks are always going to require the bathroom. And existing plumbing wears out with use (I know this from having replaced one entire bathroom downstairs, with my upstairs in need of rebuilding, too). This means there will always be a need for skilled laborers who can repair existing infrastructure as well as build new installations.

Got a kid reaching the point where he has to start thinking about a lifelong career? A career that will sustain him throughout his working life? Granted, one won't become "rich" by working a plumber's life, but the income will be above average (priced a plumber lately?), he (she?) will likely have more work than he can handle for years to come.

Also, a tradesman's craft is pretty much "self-directing" in the sense that one doesn't have a boss constantly looking over his shoulder or telling him what to do. One may get a bit dirty now and then, but at the end of the workday, he'll know his "hands are clean"....

Cheers!
- John

39 posted on 08/03/2003 6:16:56 AM PDT by Fishrrman
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To: Dane
You are right about the Gore states since I live in RI and most of the people I've been talking too live in MA. But these were not Gore voters.

I guess it's ok that conservatives who live in blue zones are left to rot.
The present republican governors don't need to be reelected either.
40 posted on 08/03/2003 6:20:13 AM PDT by the gillman@blacklagoon.com
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To: DugwayDuke
That was 94.


This is different.
41 posted on 08/03/2003 6:22:01 AM PDT by the gillman@blacklagoon.com
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To: Fishrrman
I totally agree. However, when was the last time you heard anyone in the established education world or even anyone, period, advocate not going into college for an education.
42 posted on 08/03/2003 6:24:10 AM PDT by raybbr
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To: DugwayDuke
You can. It's called a DRIP (Dividend Reinvestment Program). Most of the large companies offer such programs.

Do you have to be an employee of the company to do this? And, if it's dividend re-investment, don't you have to own the stock in the first place?

I don't have credit card debt. Isn't all that profit from banks and CC companies on paper? Where are the "real" assets for these companies? Isn't that what caused the debacle of the 1999? No real assets. When paper gets pushed around too much it becomes worthless.

I don't think it can be stopped. Are we not now encouraged by all to "spend" our way out of trouble? How can we do that when we have nothing to spend?

43 posted on 08/03/2003 6:29:53 AM PDT by raybbr
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To: sarcasm
''Economies like India have MBAs from great universities,'' he added. ''They are English-speaking and fully loaded cost $8,000 to $12,000 a year.''

I'm wondering how they pay for an $80,000+ education on $12K a year...

44 posted on 08/03/2003 6:32:06 AM PDT by LouD (Genuine GOP Vigilante - Accept no substitutes!)
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To: independentmind
>>Improvements in technology mean that software code or tax forms can be written or processed in India or elsewhere -- at a substantial savings.

>I can't even begin to describe what a phenomenally bad idea the outsourcing of tax return preparation to India is.

Earnst and Yound is doing this. There is one question EY has forgotten to ask. If their business decisions are so routine that they can pack it up and ship it to India, why hire E&Y at all? Why not just use a computer program?

45 posted on 08/03/2003 6:32:40 AM PDT by Dialup Llama
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To: pabianice
Only through protectionist legislation, This has been tried before. It always leads to even worse long-term problems.

Yes, Founding Fathers made this mistake. America suffered as a result of tariffs until Clinton and Bush have fixed it.

46 posted on 08/03/2003 6:39:55 AM PDT by A. Pole
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To: Fishrrman
That is the direction I am leaning towards, not just Plumbing, but more so to electrician.

I am starting school AGAIN, this time to add an AS in EE to my resume instead of anothe CAD software that is only going to be useless in this economy!...(sigh)
47 posted on 08/03/2003 6:41:37 AM PDT by RaceBannon
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To: Dialup Llama
If I figure something out, it remains proprietary and people will have to pay to learn about it.

Amen! My primary defense against this onslaught of unemployment is to develop my own application on my own time, which I'm almost ready to begin selling.

48 posted on 08/03/2003 6:41:47 AM PDT by Marauder
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To: Dialup Llama
I have another question. There have been many suggestions that public companies be required to release annual tax returns as well as financial statements. Differences in reporting certain items for tax and financial statement purposes can often indicate book-cooking. They also allow the public to ascertain exactly how "creative" a company's tax reduction efforts are.

One of the main arguments against requiring public corporations to release tax returns has been that they contain highly sensitive information that a competitor might use to its advantage.

So what are the Big Four doing to ensure the confidentiality of this highly sensitive information? Are they so sure that an Indian raised in a culture very different from our own will share our concept of what constitutes ethical behavior? I've worked with a few people from that area of the world, and I have my doubts about this.

49 posted on 08/03/2003 6:46:08 AM PDT by independentmind
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To: raybbr
Why can't you buy stocks directly from a company? Why do you have to go through the stock market?

You can from most companies once you are a share holder. Then you can purchase shares directly from the company treasurer at no commission. You can also have your dividends reinvested into new shares at no cost.

Why do banks pay 1.5% for money and we are paying 12-26% for the money we borrow? Don't tell me there isn't a mass gouging of the American people by the money industry.

If you are paying those rates (12-26%) its because you are too lazy to move to another credit card or your credit history sucks. These days you can get all sorts of low interest rate deals for accepting a new credit card. After six months, if they dont continue to give you a good rate, you transfer your balance to another bank offering a low rate on transfers. Additionally, many credit card issuers are offering permanent rates of under 8%.

50 posted on 08/03/2003 6:46:42 AM PDT by Dave S
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