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GIBSON'S PASSION (New York Sun op-ed by ADL National Director Abraham H. Foxman)
The New York Sun/ADL Website ^ | 8/4/03 | Abraham H. Foxman

Posted on 08/07/2003 5:56:58 PM PDT by DPB101

Anti-Defamation League Note: This op-ed originally appeared in the New York Sun on August 4, 2003.

Discussions about Mel Gibson's forthcoming movie "The Passion" have taken a disturbing turn. Rather than focusing on an effort to find out whether Mr. Gibson is making a movie on the death of Jesus that is consistent with church teachings and free of the anti-Semitism that haunted passion dramas for centuries, the very raising of questions is now being depicted as a part of the culture wars that have overwhelmed American society in recent years.

Movie critic Michael Medved put the issue in the context of "liberal activists, who worry over the ever-increasing influence of religious traditionalism in American life." And Kathie Lee Gifford writes that Mr. Gibson "is being so tormented for something that he has every right to do - as an artist in a free country where he is supposed to have the freedom to express and practice his own faith."

This is a strange and unfortunate reaction to the legitimate questions that have been raised. Let us remember that the Catholic church itself and Pope John Paul II, hardly a liberal, revolutionized centuries-old teachings about Jews and Judaism related to the death of Jesus. Recognition by the Vatican of the devastating effects of church teachings about Jews - blaming Jews for the crucifixion, delegitimizing Judaism as a religion, not speaking clearly against anti-Semitism - created new Church doctrine which has transformed Catholic-Jewish relations.

Whether one is conservative or liberal, indeed whatever ones views concerning which is best for American society, the issue of portraying the death of Jesus as a Jewish crime has long been rejected.

Why have we been raising questions as to whether Mr. Gibson's movie may be returning to outmoded, dangerous views of the Jewish role in the death of Jesus?

First, because there has been a long history of the passion story i.e., the trials, crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus, being interpreted as holding the Jewish people responsible for killing Jesus.

According to this interpretation, both the Jews at the time of Jesus and the Jewish people for all time bear a divine curse for the sin of deicide. Throughout nearly 1,900 years of Christian-Jewish history, the charge of deicide has led to hatred and violence against Jews of Europe and America, and various forms of anti-Semitic expression. Historically, Holy Week (the week leading up to Easter Sunday) was a period when Jews were most vulnerable and when Christians perpetrated some of the worst violence against their Jewish neighbors.

In 1965, at the Second Vatican Council in Rome, the Roman Catholic Church took formal steps to correct this interpretation of the passion. In its document, Nostra Aetate, the Church officially repudiated both the deicide charge and all forms of anti-Semitism. Most Protestant churches followed suit, and since 1965 many Christians have worked cooperatively with Jews to correct anti-Semitic interpretations within Christian theology. Understanding the influential role that passion plays have exercised in the spread of anti-Semitism, the Catholic Church today urges great caution in all dramatic presentations of the passion to ensure that they not furnish any impetus for anti-Semitic attitude or behavior.

In 1988, the Catholic United States Bishops Committee for Ecumenical and Interreligious Affairs issued a pamphlet, "Criteria for the Evaluation of Dramatizations of the Passion," which stresses that passion plays must avoid caricatures of Jews and falsely opposing Jews and Jesus. It quotes Pope John Paul II's statement that, "Catholic teaching should aim to present Jews and Judaism in an honest and objective manner, free from prejudices and without and offenses." The pamphlet concludes that correct Catholic teaching of the passion is one that portrays Jews accurately, sensitively and positively, because "the Church and the Jewish people are linked together essentially on the level of identity."

Second, a group of Catholic and Jewish scholars of the first century examined a draft of the screenplay of the film. In the words of Paula Fredrickson, one of the scholars, "the script, when we got it, shocked us." She noted that the scholars "pinpointed its historical errors and - again, since Mr. Gibson has so trumpeted his own Catholicism - its deviations from magisterial principles of biblical interpretation."

She went on to say: "That script - and, on the evidence, the film -- presents neither a true rendition of the gospel stories nor a historically accurate account of what could have happened in Jerusalem, on Passover, when Pilate was prefect and Caiaphas was high priest.… The true historical framing of Mr. Gibson's script is neither early first century Judea (where Jesus of Nazareth died) nor the last first-century Mediterranean dispora (where the evangelists composed their Gospels). It is post-medieval Roman Catholic Europe."

Third, because Mr. Gibson, a "traditionalist" Catholic, has expressed strong criticisms of the modern church and is supportive of views of church policy that question or reject the many 20th-century changes, including the revolution in attitudes toward Jews beginning with Nostra Aetate in 1965.

This combination of history, an early version of the script, and reports about Mr. Gibson's views understandably raised concerns. We have not, however, reached conclusions about the film because we haven't seen it and because the producers say they have made changes. We have, instead, asked the producers for an opportunity to see a preview of the film. If our concerns would turn out to be unjustified, we will be eager to say so. If problems remain, we will be happy share our suggestions with Mr. Gibson.

In a world when anti-Semitism has undergone a frightening resurgence, one of the hopeful perspectives is the fact that the Church has changed so dramatically. We urge the makers of "The Passion" to continue this important progress that has benefited Christians and Jews.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial; Extended News; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: adl; foxman; gibson; moviereview; passion
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1 posted on 08/07/2003 5:56:59 PM PDT by DPB101
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To: DPB101
Dear Mr. Foxman: here's some advice for you
2 posted on 08/07/2003 5:59:18 PM PDT by Alouette (Every democratic politician should live next door to a pimp, so he can have someone to look up to.)
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To: DPB101
Abraham "Twentieth Century" Foxman has made up his mind about the movie. As for it possibly stoking anti-Semitism, I'd like to remind Foxman anti-Semites don't need a reason to lash out at Jews. Like Duh.
3 posted on 08/07/2003 5:59:26 PM PDT by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives On In My Heart Forever)
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To: DPB101
Since Abe loves to quote the Vatican about the Catholic Church, I guess Abe will now accept Jesus as the Messiah because the Catholic Church says so.

LOL.
4 posted on 08/07/2003 6:03:52 PM PDT by TD911
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To: DPB101
Has he SEEN the movie? I know that having access to the facts is not a prerequisite for name-calling (a common avoaction for Mr. Foxman) but he should at least wait until screening the movie before casting stones at Mel Gibson.
5 posted on 08/07/2003 6:08:27 PM PDT by laconic
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To: TD911
the resurgence of anti-semitism is being led by muslims not christians. mr. foxman should worry about overt acts of violence against jews which are overwhelmingly committed in the name of the palestinians and israel's oppression.
i'm jewish and i certainly don't fear any repercussions from mr. gibson's film.
6 posted on 08/07/2003 6:12:39 PM PDT by contessa machiaveli
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To: DPB101
Historically, Holy Week (the week leading up to Easter Sunday) was a period when Jews were most vulnerable and when Christians perpetrated some of the worst violence against their Jewish neighbors.

Exactly when was the last outbreak of anti-Jewish violence during Holy Week in America? From the the tone of this article, one would assume it was in the last few years. I may have missed it.

7 posted on 08/07/2003 6:12:53 PM PDT by Restorer (Never let schooling interfere with your education.)
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To: DPB101
Would it be anti semetic to call Meyer Lansky and Bugsy Seigle murdering theives?

Well it was the Jewish priesthood that falsified testimony and trumpt up charges in order to get Jesus murdered "nice an legal like"

They were corupt...Jesus pointed this out time and time again....
So they killed him for it...

Jesus went to his death willingly.. he said "No one takes my life from me ..I lay down my life willingly for the good shepherd lays down his life for his sheep"

Also since Jesus was resurected..He isnt dead...He lives...

So wheres the murder?...if the dead live...is there a murder?

Also if it werent for the Jews (God bless them) we would not have a savior...

Nor would we have had an act of salvation...His plan was that salvation (Jesus) would come to us through the Jews...

So Mel's story is just that...it doesnt dipict the cruelty of the Jewish religous leaders and Romans as much as what it does do...

And that is to show us or at least attempts to...show us just how much Jesus loves us
And what he endured for oursakes..

The modern day Pharasies...the ACLU the ADA..the Southern Poverty Law Center...The People for the American Way..etc etc..cannot stand the name of Christ and the Good News of Salvation be told in public..They work for their father the devil..

They could care less about this false charge of "anti semetism"...their real agenda is to stop Christians from a deeper relationship with Christ one that might lead them to more evangalism

Jesus is awesome ..that he loved us sinners..so much he would go through all that to save us..
Jesus is Lord
8 posted on 08/07/2003 6:18:37 PM PDT by joesnuffy (Moderate Islam Is For Dilettantes)
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To: Restorer
From the the tone of this article, one would assume it was in the last few years. I may have missed it.

Really. It sounds like when the feminists whine that more women get beat up on super bowl sunday than any other day.

I think it is as clear as can be to everyone that Mr. Foxman is just trying to stir up a bogeyman for his fundraising purposes.

9 posted on 08/07/2003 6:19:04 PM PDT by Rodney King (No, we can't all just get along.)
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To: DPB101
Recognition by the Vatican of the devastating effects of church teachings about Jews - blaming Jews for the crucifixion, delegitimizing Judaism as a religion, not speaking clearly against anti-Semitism - created new Church doctrine which has transformed Catholic-Jewish relations.

Foxman ought to sign up for some lessons on the Catechism of the Catholic Church. To wit:

1. The Catholic Church cannot "create new Church doctrine."

2. As some folks here on FreeRepublic have pointed out, even elderly Catholics today cannot remember ever being taught any of those silly things about Judaism.

10 posted on 08/07/2003 6:25:28 PM PDT by Alberta's Child
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To: Alouette
LOL.
11 posted on 08/07/2003 6:27:47 PM PDT by Alberta's Child
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To: contessa machiaveli
the resurgence of anti-semitism is being led by muslims not christians

What a quandry it must be for Mr Foxman to have CAIR on his side.
12 posted on 08/07/2003 6:37:58 PM PDT by John Lenin
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To: DPB101
I just LOVE these liars! *NOT*

Catholics "blaming Jews for the crucifixion, delegitimizing Judaism as a religion,..."

Sorry charlie - Blaming Jews for the crucifixion? THAT wasn't taught in any of my Catechism classes. Saying that the "Pharisees were to blame" is the same as "ALL jews are to blame" is asinine. Jesus was a jew. Mary & Joseph were Jews, the Bible all about Jews. Catholics discriminate against Jews?

The second part ... "delegitimizing Judaism as a religion"

What? How? True, it is the mission of a Christian to convert non-CHristians to the faith. According to the New Testament, that is the COMMAND given to us.

Does that de-legitimize Judaism? islam? maoism? Zorastrism? and all the other ...isms? Well..... yes...after all we are supposed to convert the non-Christians - NOT to hate them.
13 posted on 08/07/2003 6:56:06 PM PDT by steplock (www.FOCUS.GOHOTSPRINGS.com)
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14 posted on 08/07/2003 6:56:35 PM PDT by Bob J (Freerepublic.net...where it's always a happening....)
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To: joesnuffy
Well said.
15 posted on 08/07/2003 6:59:21 PM PDT by Finalapproach29er ("Don't shoot Mongo, you'll only make him mad.")
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To: DPB101
You goes nuts when a Jew weighs in against Mel Gibson's upcoming movie. You are obsessed with Jewish defiance and reaction to Gibson's film. "How dare those Yids criticize this film! There are so few of them yet they are such a pain"

FWIW David Horowitz likes the film and it may be good for all I know. But meanwhile we can count on you going ballistic when some Jew speaks up against it. You are absolutely obsessed with Jewish negative reaction to this film. What do you want to do them? Squash them? This is what you try to do via your numerous posts on this subject

I call a spade a spade here and you know it.

 

 

Mel Gibson's Passion - Wednesday, July 30, 2003 5:49 PM
By David Horowitz
 
 

Mel Gibson's film, The Passion, which is about the last twelve hours of Christ's life is the object of campaign villification and book burning by a committee of Christians and Jews who want to shut it down before it is shown, or edit it to their own politically (or religiously) correct standards. Paula Fredriksen is a spokesman for this committee. The New Republic has shamed itself by printing her ill-informed and bigoted attack on the film.

Unlike Fredriksen and others who want to destroy film before they have seen it, I have. It is not an attempt to portray the historical Jesus -- which is the subject of Fredriksen's entire screed -- nor could it be. By Fredriksen's own account there is no evidentiary basis for such a portrait and if anyone tried to create one it would be eviscerated by the same Savanarolas, precisely because no one can know what the truth is.

Gibson's film is an artistic vision and must be judged that way. Like others who have seen the film, I am sworn to keep details confidential so that it gets its chance when the distributors present it to the viewing public next Easter. However, I will say this: It is an awesome artifact, an overpowering work. I can't remember being so affected by a film before. It is extremely painful to watch and yet the violence is never gratuitous. You never feel like you want to take your eyes off the screen. It is a wracking emotional journey which never strays from its inspirational purpose. It is as close to a religious experience as art can get.

It is not anti-Semitic, as the film-burners have charged. Two illustrative details: Jesus is referred to in the film as "rabbi," and there is never any distancing of Jesus or his disciples from their Jewishness. (One point missed by ignorant bigots like Fredericksen whose only familiarity with The Passion is with a stolen script) is that while the film is in Aramaic -- a brilliant effect that enhances the symbolic resonance of the story -- it has subtitles. Second detail: A Jew carries Jesus' cross along the terrible route to Golgotha and shares his miseries. But yes the film is also faithful to the Gospels and therefore the Pharisees are Jesus' enemies and they and their flock do call for Jesus' death (and why wouldn't they since Jesus was a threat to their authority and their beliefs?).

But all this is to miss the point. This is a Christian parable. The cruelty, intolerance and lack of compassion of human beings is limitless -- and we who have lived through the Twentieth Century know this all too well. The moral of this Christian story -- of Mel Gibson's film -- is that we all killed Jesus -- Jew and Gentile alike -- and tortured him, and we do so every day. But if you believe the vision that Gibson has rendered so searingly and so well, Jesus forgives us for that very act. Whosoever will give up cruelty and love his brother will enter paradise. That is the message that Gibson has framed in his extraordinary work. The effort to shut down his film before it opens is just another station of the cross.

 


16 posted on 08/07/2003 7:14:23 PM PDT by dennisw (G_d is at war with Amalek for all generations)
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To: DPB101
More righteously indignant prattle from the Perpetually Outraged and Offended.
17 posted on 08/07/2003 7:22:39 PM PDT by Cacophonous
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To: dennisw
You goes nuts when a Jew weighs in against Mel Gibson's upcoming movie. You are obsessed with Jewish defiance and reaction to Gibson's film. "How dare those Yids criticize this film! There are so few of them yet they are such a pain"

That's a legitimate criticism, but you have to admit: there are a number of liberal jews that see swastikas in their cereal bowls and Nazis in every closet.

18 posted on 08/07/2003 7:25:20 PM PDT by Cacophonous
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To: Cacophonous
The article author is more about the pernicious corrosive effect of liberalism than about outraged or offended Jews. Here's how you can tell:

Rather than focusing on an effort to find out whether Mr. Gibson is making a movie on the death of Jesus that is consistent with church teachings and free of the anti-Semitism that haunted passion dramas for centuries, the very raising of questions is now being depicted as a part of the culture wars that have overwhelmed American society in recent years. [And rightly so --the liebral bastards don't like it when their covers are pulled-- and that is why this author tries to legitimize his lickspittle as 'not of the culture war'.]

And Kathie Lee Gifford writes that Mr. Gibson "is being so tormented for something that he has every right to do - as an artist in a free country where he is supposed to have the freedom to express and practice his own faith."

This is a strange and unfortunate reaction to the legitimate questions that have been raised. [The questions are legitimate to the liberal bilge spitters only!]

It is the typical technique of liberals to try and legitimize their perspective by questioning any delegitimization to their lickspittle as they set out to spread their lickspittle, and that is the precise approach this 'journalist/op-ed writer' has taken to start his stealth hit-piece.

19 posted on 08/07/2003 7:40:54 PM PDT by MHGinTN (If you can read this, you've had life support from someone. Promote life support for others.)
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To: DPB101
First, because there has been a long history of the passion story i.e., the trials, crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus, being interpreted as holding the Jewish people responsible for killing Jesus.

This is true of history. Holding the Jewish people exclusively responsible for killing Jesus is anti-semitism, imho.

It is not true of the New Testament account. The writer of the gospel of John is a Jew. He says that the "Jews" clamored for Jesus' crucifixion. We're told that Mary is a Jew, Peter is a Jew, Nicodemus is a Jew, etc., etc. At this point, practically all followers of Jesus are Jews. None of them were clamoring for Jesus' crucifixion.

John's use of the word "Jews" was a euphemism for the political leaders. (Perhaps it was derogatory...sarcasm about how they exalted themselves above the common folk.) In any case, it was understood by those who heard it.

Those who don't understand that Jesus is a Jew, really cannot understand that a nexus of leaders had Jesus killed.

But the bible tells a deeper story, actually.

It says that the death of Jesus really belongs at the doorstep of each of us. Our sin put Him on the cross.

As Peter would say of Jesus dying for Peter's own sin, "Not for ours only, but also for the sin of the whole world."

20 posted on 08/07/2003 7:42:46 PM PDT by xzins
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To: Cacophonous
I'm very unhappy when I see the Jewish dominated ACLU ganging up against the Boy Scouts, public prayer, 10 Commandments Monument in Alabama and Christmas crèches. Mel Gibson's film will be seen in many countries. It might incite hatred of Jews in some of these places same as the Passion Plays of old incited many a pogrom. From this standpoint Foxman is right to express concern

At the same time Horowitz says the film is great.

21 posted on 08/07/2003 7:47:52 PM PDT by dennisw (G_d is at war with Amalek for all generations)
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To: Alouette
Loved it, man!!

Foxman should be playing pinochle and heading for early-bird specials. He'd be doing less damage to us Jews that way...

22 posted on 08/07/2003 7:51:19 PM PDT by Pharmboy (Dems lie 'cause they have to...)
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To: dennisw
Has Foxman seen it? I don't recall seeing it in the article. If he hasn't seen it, then he has NO room for criticism.
23 posted on 08/07/2003 7:53:55 PM PDT by Cacophonous
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To: dennisw
the secular humanist liberal Jewish dominated ACLU

Or is that self-understood whenever you say ACLU?

They get just as hysterical whenever Chabad puts up public menorahs for Chanukah.

24 posted on 08/07/2003 8:17:08 PM PDT by Alouette (Every democratic politician should live next door to a pimp, so he can have someone to look up to.)
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To: DPB101
This is nonsense. There is no new doctrine regarding the Jews. The Catholic Church can't invent doctrines in order to get along better with Jews or anybody else. It can't rescind official teachings which are binding on the faithful, no matter how politically correct it may seem to do so. Catholics, along with other Christians, are obliged to accept the evidence of the Gospels--which explains unequivocally that the chief priests and the Pharisees sought to arrest Jesus to have him eliminated. No public relations ploy by ADL can change this.

And while it is true that crimes have been perpetrated against the Jews on the part of some who have called themselves Christians, the Church itself has never sought to delegitimize Judaism in any way nor to preach anti-Semitism. This is a falsehood tantamount to slander. The ADL should know better. It is also speaking nonsense when it declares there was "no Jewish role" in the death of Jesus. Of course there was--and all Christians know it. But we do not blame the Jewish people themselves for what transpired. The death of Jesus was the fault of all of all of us. THAT has been the perennial teaching of the Church which ADL conveniently ignores.


25 posted on 08/07/2003 8:23:17 PM PDT by ultima ratio
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To: ultima ratio
Every premise in this op-ed is false.
26 posted on 08/07/2003 8:49:00 PM PDT by DPB101
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To: Alouette
Oh, so true. It needs to be repeated.

And often.

27 posted on 08/07/2003 8:54:15 PM PDT by kstewskis (edited tagline to follow...."mmphhffmmffphmmffff...")
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To: Northern Yankee; lorrainer; GirlShortstop
...getting sick of this "spew" yet?-PING!!

I need an antedote....quick.

Ahhhh....I'm feeling better now....

(sorry Jay...bear with me!)

28 posted on 08/07/2003 9:11:47 PM PDT by kstewskis
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To: DPB101
Every premise in this op-ed is false.

Your premises are wrong.

1) That this film will not be seen in places where it might be uh .....  misunderstood.... Where it might serve as potent anti Jewish propaganda.      I'm not talking about the United States but I am talking about certain Muslim countries and certain places in Europe.

2) That because you don't care about #1, people who do are to be heaped with opprobrium. Such as the Jews that raise some misgiving. Abe Foxmann for this thread

3) You forget or plain don't care that Passion plays in the past have lead to programs and riots against Jews. And at times were staged to accomplish this. Therefore Jewish concern is legitimate.

I haven't seen the film so don't know how it stacks up against the Passion plays of old. I think some are still put on?

29 posted on 08/07/2003 10:59:28 PM PDT by dennisw (G_d is at war with Amalek for all generations)
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To: ultima ratio
And while it is true that crimes have been perpetrated against the Jews on the part of some who have called themselves Christians, the Church itself has never sought to delegitimize Judaism in any way nor to preach anti-Semitism.

Is "the Church" the Roman Catholic Church? It has not preached anti Semitism at any time during the last 2000 years? What was the Inquisition? A mirage?

 

30 posted on 08/07/2003 11:03:56 PM PDT by dennisw (G_d is at war with Amalek for all generations)
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To: ultima ratio
Here's a book for ya! http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0375406239/qid=1054685031/sr=lmlf-9/ref=cm_lm_asin/103-7423797-8152664?v=glance
31 posted on 08/07/2003 11:10:31 PM PDT by dennisw (G_d is at war with Amalek for all generations)
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To: joesnuffy
Amen, Alleluia!
32 posted on 08/07/2003 11:13:10 PM PDT by RinaseaofDs
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To: dennisw
First, the Church had a moderating effect on the Spanish Inquisition--but the inquisitors were appointed by Isabella and Ferdinand.

Second, the expulsion of all Jews from Spain by Torquemada was followed by the expulsion of all Muslims. Jews were not singled out just for being Jews. The issue was religious, not ethnic. In addition, unorthodox Christians suffered just as much.

Third, the charges against the Inquisition are overblown. Modern scholars have determined that in 350 years only about 4000 people perished, an average of about 4 people per year. (According to Will Durant.)

Fourth, because of the Inquisition, Spain never suffered the religious warfare experienced by the rest of Europe--conflicts which took hundreds of thousands of lives.
33 posted on 08/08/2003 12:21:47 AM PDT by ultima ratio
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To: dennisw
Where have riots ever broken out after the performance of Passion Plays? I have heard this claim--but have never seen any credible evidence that this has ever actually occurred. Perhaps in Nazi Germany--but surely not elsewhere--and surely not in modern times.

When the ADL and other Jewish organizations make this charge, they fail to see how aggressive and offensive this sounds to Christians who have an altogether different take on such matters. To Christians this sounds like interference by those outside the faith. When ADL denies outright any Jewish role in the death of Jesus, this sounds to Christians like a challenge to the veracity of the Gospels themselves. This can only injure Jewish-Christian relations.
34 posted on 08/08/2003 12:39:50 AM PDT by ultima ratio
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To: dennisw
It is this sort of anti-Catholicism--claiming the Vatican waged an anti-Semitic war against the Jews--that most Catholics find outrageous. Over the years I've read a great deal of this propaganda--half-truths, outright lies, and carefully manipulated journalistic distortions not unlike the nonsense being written about Mel Gibson's movie and by extension about the Gospel accounts themselves--purporting to find evil where none was ever intended. Why should this kind of anti-Catholic bigotry be any more tolerable than anti-Semitism?

35 posted on 08/08/2003 1:07:24 AM PDT by ultima ratio
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To: joesnuffy; kstewskis; Victoria Delsoul; ninenot
Excellent points you make!

In the Gospel of John Jesus also tells Pilate, and all who were present, "You would have no authority over me unless it were given to you by my father."

Again over the centuries the Catholic Church has understood this meaning, and has not leveled charges against anyone. This would only counter all that Jesus has said.

I certainly feel that these accusations against Mel's movie have more to do with shutting him up, than actually charging anything based on anti-semitism.

36 posted on 08/08/2003 5:19:03 AM PDT by Northern Yankee (Freedom.... needs a soldier !)
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To: kstewskis
In regards to post # 28...

Not a problem.

BTW... who's the guy in the chair? (Grins)

37 posted on 08/08/2003 5:22:54 AM PDT by Northern Yankee (Freedom.... needs a soldier !)
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To: DPB101; kstewskis
If our concerns would turn out to be unjustified, we will be eager to say so.

ROFLMAO!    

Thanks kstew for the *pic* and the ping!

38 posted on 08/08/2003 5:56:52 AM PDT by GirlShortstop
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To: dennisw
1) That this film will not be seen in places where it might be uh ..... misunderstood.... Where it might serve as potent anti Jewish propaganda. I'm not talking about the United States but I am talking about certain Muslim countries and certain places in Europe.

I'm not Catholic, but everything I've heard says this movie attempts to stick as closely as possible to the gospel accounts. If it can be used as "anti-Jewish propaganda", then presumably so can the New Testament.

So would you condemn a Christian for ignoring the "misgivings" of non-Christians about the New Testament? Why? Should a Jew be worried about my "misgivings" concerning the Talmud?

39 posted on 08/08/2003 6:14:54 AM PDT by Sloth ("I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!" -- Jacobim Mugatu, 'Zoolander')
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To: Northern Yankee
I certainly feel that these accusations against Mel's movie have more to do with shutting him up, than actually charging anything based on anti-semitism.

Me, too. There's more anti-Christianity at work here than anti-Semitism. The ones screaming the loudest over this movie seem to hate religion in general, overt expressions of devotion specifically, and overt expressions of Christian devotion most of all.

I wonder how often Ms. Fredrickson, a "scholar", actually observes the Sabbath according to her faith. I wonder if she believes in anything she studies. I simply don't believe she's genuinely concerned or genuinely expects a new wave of "pogroms" against Jews due to this movie. I think their report was a hit piece by religion-haters and Christian-haters in particular.

These synagogue burnings and beatings of Jews around Europe certainly aren't happening because of Mel Gibson's movie.

40 posted on 08/08/2003 6:44:31 AM PDT by wimpycat (Down with Kooks and Kookery!)
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To: GirlShortstop
Do you know if Foxman gets any taxpayer money? Another of Mel's critics, Marvin Hier, has received millions from both the Federal and state government.Isn't that a kick? Taxpayers subsidizing a person who bashes a Christian movie (and, I assume, says nothing when anti-Christian films are made).

The left uses our own money to attack us.

41 posted on 08/08/2003 7:03:01 AM PDT by DPB101
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To: DPB101
Third, because Mr. Gibson, a "traditionalist" Catholic, has expressed strong criticisms of the modern church and is supportive of views of church policy that question or reject the many 20th-century changes, including the revolution in attitudes toward Jews beginning with Nostra Aetate in 1965.

There is no evidence whatsoever for this allegation. If Foxman has such, he needs to present it.

To question aspects of Vatican II does not automatically entail rejecting the Council's rejection of the deicide charge. This allegation is equivalent to charging anyone critical of Lincoln as being supportive of slavery.

Ridiculous. Foxman ought to know better.

42 posted on 08/08/2003 7:13:59 AM PDT by The Iguana
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To: DPB101
Taxpayers subsidizing a person who bashes a Christian movie (and, I assume, says nothing when anti-Christian films are made).

How dare that uppity Jew criticize a Christian movie!!! This is the enduring theme of your remarks. Only 15 million Jews in this world so your theory is they should shut up due to the much greater number of Catholics? Is this some kind of Catholic antiJew crusade of yours? You are making me curious. Are you in fact Catholic?

It's funny but this is how the Islamics behaved. They treated Christians and Jews as dhimmis due to their much greater weight in numbers. If you want a taste of what being minority is go carry your Christian banner waving in an Arab nation and see how you are treated. Often the Muslims were much more brutal to the Christian dhimmis than the Jews. Such as the Armenian holocuast. Early 1900s Greeks too were slaughtered by the dominant Turks.

43 posted on 08/08/2003 7:50:08 AM PDT by dennisw (G_d is at war with Amalek for all generations)
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To: Cacophonous
Has Foxman seen it? I don't recall seeing it in the article. If he hasn't seen it, then he has NO room for criticism......


No room for you touting it since you have not seen it
44 posted on 08/08/2003 7:52:18 AM PDT by dennisw (G_d is at war with Amalek for all generations)
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To: ultima ratio
It is this sort of anti-Catholicism--claiming the Vatican waged an anti-Semitic war against the Jews--that most Catholics find outrageous........


READ THIS BOOK and your mind will be changed. Here's a book for ya! http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0375406239/qid=1054685031/sr=lmlf-9/ref=cm_lm_asin/103-7423797-8152664?v=glance
45 posted on 08/08/2003 7:53:38 AM PDT by dennisw (G_d is at war with Amalek for all generations)
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To: dennisw
I don't think I was.
46 posted on 08/08/2003 8:41:16 AM PDT by Cacophonous
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To: dennisw
But the opinions of those that have seen it carries more weight for me than of those that have not. And I don't know if Foxman has seen it.
47 posted on 08/08/2003 8:42:42 AM PDT by Cacophonous
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To: Cacophonous
Plenty of other freepers are touting it who have not seen it. I theorize it's a good movie. I object to the slamming of Jews who raise questions about it. This what's been going on. I have objections to some of what Abe Foxman does but I say he raises honest and legitimate concernes here.


The words "Passion Play" have a history in the Jewish mind.
48 posted on 08/08/2003 8:48:20 AM PDT by dennisw (G_d is at war with Amalek for all generations)
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To: dennisw
I'm looking forward to seeing it.
49 posted on 08/08/2003 9:07:40 AM PDT by Cacophonous
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To: dennisw
No, my mind won't change because I've seen this kind of bigotry before and I know what the Catholic Church stands for--and it's not anti-Semitism. There has been a concerted effort over the years to destroy the reputation of Pius XII, for instance--although he was a good and just man and had done all he could to rescue Jews during the Holocaust. Were this a serious and scholarly Book, it would not carry the title it carries, designed to stir bigotry rather than to enlighten. There was no "war against the Jews" by the popes of the Catholic Church--ever. Such a contention is either paranoid or malicious.
50 posted on 08/08/2003 10:12:35 AM PDT by ultima ratio
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