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To: ChemistCat
as far as civilization that would be receptive to democratic ideals... people on the left think that three months is enough time for Iraq to become democratic and civilized, when it has taken the US two hundred years?
14 posted on 08/09/2003 10:44:30 AM PDT by cyborg (i'm half and half... me mum is a muggle and me dad is a witch)
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To: cyborg
Hmmm. I'd say it took only a few years for the US to become as democratic and civilized as it ever was. (We never were a pure democracy; of course--that depends upon an educated and moral culture that has never truly existed. All the struggles we have had within ourselves yet stem from the fact that our population has never lived up to the requirements of a free and moral society. We owned other people, killed innocent natives, lied to go to war, etc etc etc.)

In the last 50 years, the civilization we DID possess has substantially eroded. We no longer educate children even to be able to work; we permit them to be indoctrinated in great social experiments that leave them largely unfit to produce. The ideals you rightly venerate are no longer in play here. They enjoy lip service and little more by more than half of the population; let us say nearly all Gore voters, and a significant share of W's lukewarm supporters. A substantial fraction of the core patriots who are left permit themselves to be distracted by this and that, side issues that they think matter. It's rather like watching people in a sinking life raft arguing about macrame techniques for patching holes with jute, while the sharks circle. Gay marriage! Zero tolerance policies! Whether cell phones may be used while driving! Good grief. We cannot see the forest for the trees any longer. In England, laws are being passed to prevent homeowners from attempting to hurt burglars in any way. We're not so far from that extreme.

You honestly think that we enjoy the liberty our Founding Fathers intended? Please note that when our Constitution was drafted, it was not possible for a government to possess weaponry superior to that owned by individuals. Now, there are many places where many law-abiding citizens cannot possess weapons at all, even simple bladed weapons.

I worry about my government intruding upon me in small ways every day, and about its stranglehold over the economy through a micromanaging and punitive tax code. I need a permit to hold a yard sale, cannot hold more than one a year, and my town expects part of the take. I doubt the Iraqis are so closely controlled.

I lock myself in day and night because the criminals have all the rights here. Corruption at the upper levels is not on Saddam's level, but tell me Grey Davis isn't the same sort of man! We're working hard on becoming Iraq-of-Christmas-Past, trust me.

I am not sure we're equipped to give anyone else democratic ideals. To me, it's almost a wonder that we can give them a government that isn't lining children up at the edges of pits and gunning them down. But perhaps legal abortion-for-convenience is not morally very different.

Iraq has enjoyed a vast improvement in a few months. The more of their rascals we can gun down, the happier a place Iraq will be when it all shakes down. They may have a better democracy than ours by the time we're done, because we just keep briefly cycling OUR criminals through our wonderful cable-TV-equipped academies of crime...and theirs, by and large, are too reckless to keep their heads down while the US Army is in town.

In short, we cannot give Iraq, or Liberia, or anyone else a share of what we USED to possess. When we were a Christian nation tolerant of religious minorities, we came close--and still committed plenty of uncivilized atrocities of our own.

There is the Platonic ideal of America, and you and I hold that close in our hearts, but when we begin to expect the poor imitation of it that actually rules over us to achieve things as if it was the ideal....we will be disappointed. Let's just settle for no more mass graves of civilians dating from under our rule of Iraq, okay? Let us help them protect their treasures, and get a government in place that is reasonably well-behaved, steps down when it's not wanted anymore, and won't help terrorists kill us. That's basically all I expect from OUR government anymore. More than that will take a miracle, and that's what I'm REALLY holding out for.
25 posted on 08/09/2003 11:15:29 AM PDT by ChemistCat (Oklahoma City--Where 56% of HS Seniors Get No Diploma, And No One Knows Why Not.)
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