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IT happens only in India!
Economic Times of India ^ | August 10, 2003 | R SUBRAMANYAM

Posted on 08/10/2003 1:12:32 AM PDT by sarcasm

Despite shrinking IT spend caused by the economic slowdown, Indian software and services export industry grew 26.3% last fiscal generating revenues of Rs 46,100 crore ($9.5 billion). Of this, the promising BPO segment earned Rs 11,300 crore ($2.3 billion), with the balance Rs 34,800 crore ($7.2 billion) coming from IT services, products and technology services.

Nasscom, the trade body representing software and service firms expects the momentum to continue and predicts the industry to earn $50 billion and create 1.1 million jobs by 2008. With outsourcing going mainstream and Indian cost and quality advantage gaining ground, the road ahead looks promising for the software export industry.

A Gartner report in August 2002 says that 79 percent of large US corporations are currently engaged in offshore outsourcing while the remaining 21 percent plan to do so soon. The report says surveyed US corporations ranked India as the primary country for supplying offshore IT services.

High quality delivery capabilities, significant cost benefits and abundant skilled resources are the pushing foreign clients to shift their software development and BPO needs to India.

While the outlook is bright, there are numerous challenges the software and BPO industry need to battle to retain this pre-eminent position. On the external front, prime issues are stringent visa regulations, preventing easy moment of Indian IT professionals to overseas clients premises and laws restricting outsourcing -such as the recent one in which five US states together are pushing for ban on government agencies moving back office and IT solutions work to companies outside the country.

Additionally, software and service exporters have to face the threat of increased competition from emerging outsourcing destinations like Philippines and China and big global IT consultants and service brands like IBM, Accenture and EDS, who are enhancing their India presence to push down rates.

The need to move up the value chain to provide end-to-end solutions for customers.

Tackling human resource related issues like employee attraction and retention and high wage cost are some of the internal challenges confronting the IT services export industry.



TOPICS: Business/Economy; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: india; it; outsourcing
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1 posted on 08/10/2003 1:12:32 AM PDT by sarcasm
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To: harpseal
ping
2 posted on 08/10/2003 1:13:02 AM PDT by sarcasm (Tancredo 2004)
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To: sarcasm
First America owned the stell industry, then it went to the far east. Second, America became number one in manufacturing, then it went to the far east. IT was dominated by America, now IT is going to the far east. America needs a new golden industry. Biometrics, IT Security, Defense, Genome Tech, Software Dev, CRM, etc are in the up-and-up in America...We'll do fine. We'll outsource jobs equivelent to the the average produce picker. Give it a year, big Corporations will be begging to hire new employees.
3 posted on 08/10/2003 1:23:37 AM PDT by Pro-Bush (Circumstances rule destiny)
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To: Pro-Bush
Stell=Steel (extra ping for sarcasm)
4 posted on 08/10/2003 1:24:50 AM PDT by Pro-Bush (Circumstances rule destiny)
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To: sarcasm; clamper1797; BrooklynGOP; A. Pole; Zorrito; GiovannaNicoletta; Caipirabob; Paul Ross; ...
ping

on or off this list let me know.

Now the Chinese leadership considers IT to be an esential militray technology. Further 79% plus 21% by my mathematics equals 100%
5 posted on 08/10/2003 3:58:28 AM PDT by harpseal (Stay well - Stay safe - Stay armed - Yorktown)
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To: sarcasm
The average Indian isn't paying huge taxes to support peace keeping, humanitarian and diplomatic missions around the world. The average Indian isn't paying for the added costs of "code compliance", "litigation", "pension funds" and other hidden taxes on every product that is available to them. The employer side of FICA is often greater than the total wage paid to an Indian. Your house is overengineered compared to an one for an Indian, and to comply to local building standards you are forced to pay large sums of money. Granted the water and air is clean, and the power stays on most of the time, but for that privledge (and to purchase that privledge for the millions who don't pay taxes or utility bills), the American must make himself totally uncompetetive against billions of other people who are not saddled with supporting the world's most luxurious hammock.
6 posted on 08/10/2003 4:07:29 AM PDT by JesseHousman
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To: sarcasm

All Your Base...heh, heh, heh...

7 posted on 08/10/2003 4:48:01 AM PDT by Caipirabob (Democrats.. Socialists..Commies..Traitors...Who can tell the difference?)
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To: sarcasm
Tackling human resource related issues like employee attraction and retention and high wage cost are some of the internal challenges confronting the IT services export industry.

Not much is reported about this aspect but the Indians in Bangalore and elsewhere are jobjumping like crazy to get raises and promotions. It's a gold rush mentality there. The Indian employers are cheaper than US employers in general re benefits and wages. US companies are being charged $28/hr for project leaders and $20 for programmers in IT for offshore work. The pressures will drive this up.
8 posted on 08/10/2003 5:01:57 AM PDT by doosee
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To: Pro-Bush
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/959787/posts
Lawmaker predicts defeat for 'Buy American' language (Defense Department procurement update)

"But, in general, the protective system of our day is conservative, while the free trade system is destructive. It breaks up old nationalities and pushes the antagonism of the proletariat and the bourgeoisie to the extreme point. In a word, the free trade system hastens the social revolution. It is in this revolutionary sense alone, gentlemen, that I vote in favor of free trade." ~ Karl Marx, On the Question of Free Trade, January 9, 1848
http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/01/09ft.htm#marx


"Communists and socialists feel sure that setting up international “free” trade systems which impose regulations chuck full of intrigues, redistribution plans, arbitrary law, and interdependence schemes, will win out against the conservative interests of every free nation. What could be better than to use “free” trade to reverse the advantage of the relatively free, moral, prosperous, and strong nations of the Earth, so that the tyrannical, amoral, poor, and weak nations of the socialist bloc might get the upper hand? What could be a more cunning approach than to market the idea that those who oppose “free” trade are enemies of freedom?"
http://www.newsmax.com/commentarchive.shtmla=2000/6/27/105655

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9 posted on 08/10/2003 5:15:30 AM PDT by RaceBannon
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To: Pro-Bush
We'll do fine. We'll outsource jobs equivelent to the the average produce picker. Give it a year, big Corporations will be begging to hire new employees.

The jobs are only one issue, the larger concern is the loss of our defense industry base.Magnequench and Terfenol-D are not 'produce' but the most cutting-edge materials science we have.

But looking at the eroding job situation overall, IT jobs are not produce pickers. IBM is relocating 3 million jobs to India. Motorola is spending ALL their new capital spending overseas, and doing all their new hires overseas. $10 billion in new semiconductor plants and their associated R&D facilities. Engineers, now being outsourced as well, are not produce pickers. Semiconductor and Electronics R&D is not 'produce'.

I have a different prognostication. Give it 5 years, and unless tariffs are restored, we will literally have millions of people begging in the streets for any kind of job. The middle class will be imploding. And you will be out of a job, and no longer on-line.

10 posted on 08/10/2003 5:16:39 AM PDT by Paul Ross (A nation which can prefer disgrace to danger is prepared for a master, and deserves one!-A. Hamilton)
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To: doosee
Indian employers are also blacklisting those who switch jobs.
11 posted on 08/10/2003 5:27:16 AM PDT by sarcasm (Tancredo 2004)
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To: JesseHousman
At the moment your typical Indian is not paying for defense costs at the level of your typical American, but this can change rapidly.

Both India and China are in a quiet competition to protect their "trade routes" to Africa where, post AIDS, they undoubtedly intend to take advantage of all opportunities ~ trade, basic extractive industries, resettlement of surplus populations, etc.

To do that both countries are into acquiring or buidling aircraft carriers!

Their next step will be into "carrier groups" and at that point folks in China and India will be paying American level taxes for defense (and offense). Then there's the anti-missile defense, fighter aircraft that are space-capable, missiles, etc.

Just one thing after the other and next thing you know these guys will be in the same boat we are. Hope they fix that nasty water problem before then.

12 posted on 08/10/2003 5:42:33 AM PDT by muawiyah
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To: Paul Ross
India is still a socialist, corrupt, class riven, and completely inefficient country. It is also sliding backwards socially (e.g., they are burning widows in the back country again). Copyrights are a fiction, intellectual property wide open for pillage, and government is by bureaucratic caprice. India's most significant IT product is a series of increasingly nasty viruses.

When quality again becomes an issue, these "cheap" jobs will come home. And it will happen faster than people think.

Regards,

13 posted on 08/10/2003 5:58:07 AM PDT by Jimmy Valentine (DemocRATS - when they speak, they lie; when they are silent, they are stealing the American Dream)
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To: muawiyah
The big problem, Muawiyah, is that our government is striving to make things easier and cheaper for countries, especially China, to save money on strategic and offensive weapons development.

Our so-called "Defense Deparment" wants to move production of key guidance equipment for our "smart bombs" to factories in China.

That, coupled with the countless transfers of technology (missile guidance systems) made by the evil Clinton administration to Communist China made it very easy for them to launch the test missiles over Japan in recent times.

Here we have the Bush administration eagar to do the same damned thing and our weasels in congress will stand by while that happens.

14 posted on 08/10/2003 5:59:27 AM PDT by JesseHousman
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To: All
Check this out:

http://www.freerepublic.com/perl/redirect?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theinquirer.net%2F%3Farticle%3D10933

15 posted on 08/10/2003 6:01:47 AM PDT by JesseHousman
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To: JesseHousman
The smart bombs are still pretty basic technology, not much more high tech than my black and white PDA ~ on the other hand if the Chinese had smart bombs they would not need to have so many pilots, nor build so many jet fighters and bombers, nor construct factories to build their replacements in case of war.

This is the type of technology that seems to give your potential adversaries an advantage but the real effect may be to create structural weaknesses in the adversaries' military related industries.

16 posted on 08/10/2003 6:09:52 AM PDT by muawiyah
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To: Jimmy Valentine
When quality again becomes an issue, these "cheap" jobs will come home. And it will happen faster than people think.

I truly pray you are right. But, unfortunately, the concern of Fortune 500 companies for quality is rather suspect lately. They keep looking at the bottom line of costs and letting that drive all decision-making.

17 posted on 08/10/2003 6:17:30 AM PDT by Paul Ross (A nation which can prefer disgrace to danger is prepared for a master, and deserves one!-A. Hamilton)
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To: Jimmy Valentine
"Socialism" in India these days is pretty much limited to electric power ~ like California, the government pays the bills.

When Enron took on both India and California at the same time it was just a matter of time until Enron would go down hard, which it did!

"Class riven" is an inadequate term for the "caste system". UK is "class riven", as is Deutschland and the Frankenreich. Indians generally wish that they were merely "class riven".

"Suttee" or "sate" never really went away either, and in a society without an effective social security system (the very hallmark of socialism) poor families really have no way to care for their elderly widows. This business of killing brides over the question of dower was just as frequent under the Raj as it is today ~ but it was generally not reported!

The real issue here is that innocent people are being murdered and no one cares. Kind of like the abortion situation in America where the innocent are murdered with full protection of the law and the government's guns.

18 posted on 08/10/2003 6:17:58 AM PDT by muawiyah
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To: muawiyah
The smart bombs are still pretty basic technology, not much more high tech than my black and white PDA

Actually, they are more advanced than that, with not just GPS guidance, but micro-miniature laser-ring gyros that are backing them up, and software to manage the two. Perhaps not having a super CPU it may not be so hot...but after all, you're blowing it up, why use a Pentium P-4? In terms of the sophistication that makes them resistant to GPS-Jamming, they are our state of the art. A resistance which totally confounded the Russians...and their Iraqi clients! :-)

19 posted on 08/10/2003 6:23:23 AM PDT by Paul Ross (A nation which can prefer disgrace to danger is prepared for a master, and deserves one!-A. Hamilton)
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To: muawiyah
"Class riven" is an inadequate term for the "caste system". UK is "class riven", as is Deutschland and the Frankenreich. Indians generally wish that they were merely "class riven".

I was trying to be kind, but you are correct. The fundamtal issue is that their government and social structure impedes effective competition in IT or anything else.

? They will not change and those IT jobs we currently mourn will come home soon enough.

Regards,

20 posted on 08/10/2003 6:31:01 AM PDT by Jimmy Valentine (DemocRATS - when they speak, they lie; when they are silent, they are stealing the American Dream)
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To: Paul Ross
"I truly pray you are right. But, unfortunately, the concern of Fortune 500 companies for quality is rather suspect lately. They keep looking at the bottom line of costs and letting that drive all decision-making."

you are perfectly correct. Short run maximizers have done incalculable damage to American business in every field. Corporate Darwinism will weed out the short run competitors in favor of the more durable and adaptable players.

By the way, Bush's tax plan relieving dividend taxation will move this along faster, with investors demanding return on invested capital rather than just stock price increases.

Regards,

21 posted on 08/10/2003 6:35:12 AM PDT by Jimmy Valentine (DemocRATS - when they speak, they lie; when they are silent, they are stealing the American Dream)
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To: sarcasm
When do we get to save big on government by outsourcing our worthless hack politicians and their staffs? I know an Indian can do my Congress critter's job better and at one fifth the price. I know Indians can do Congressional staff jobs better and at one fifth the price.
22 posted on 08/10/2003 6:49:12 AM PDT by dennisw (G_d is at war with Amalek for all generations)
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To: sarcasm
A Gartner report in August 2002 says that 79 percent of large US corporations are currently engaged in offshore outsourcing while the remaining 21 percent plan to do so soon.

100% of large US corporations to engage in outsourcing. And just what is America receiving in return? What markets has India opened to American products?

23 posted on 08/10/2003 6:53:07 AM PDT by thtr
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To: JesseHousman
Good for you for pointing this out. There are thousands of laws and regulations in this country that raise our cost of living and that Indian tech workers do not have to pay.
Occupational licensing laws raise our cost for many services.
Requirements for termite inspection, title insurance, transportation expense, taxi fares, I could go on and on. There is no comparison of the cost of living for an American tech worker tothe cost of living for the Indian. I have lived and worked in the far east and I know how cheaply one can live if one moves into the native community. I got along without a car, just a bicycle, had
low rent.
American workers are subject to thousands of costs imposed by law by special interest occupations and businesses here.
24 posted on 08/10/2003 7:25:23 AM PDT by tommix2
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To: doosee
The Indian employers are cheaper than US employers in general re benefits and wages. US companies are being charged $28/hr for project leaders and $20 for programmers in IT for offshore work. The pressures will drive this up.

But the pointy-haired boss response to this will be to shift outsourcing away from India to China, Vietnam, and Indonesia. The IT wage will drop even further. Our best hope is a security meltdown in outsourced software.

25 posted on 08/10/2003 7:37:25 AM PDT by BlazingArizona
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To: Paul Ross
I have a different prognostication. Give it 5 years, and unless tariffs are restored, we will literally have millions of people begging in the streets for any kind of job. The middle class will be imploding. And you will be out of a job, and no longer on-line.

I do not believe in tariffs, that would limit the productivity of American companies. India has a competitive advantage against the USA in terms of providing an abundant labor pool that are educated in latest IT technologies (J2EE, Java, XML, etc.) and will take a job around $8,000 a year. If the USA issues tariffs against utilizing India's labor market, other countries like Germany, UK, & France will use the Indian labor force and hence will have the benefit of using a skilled labor force at a cheaper price. As a result, American IT companies would be more expensive due to the increase cost per unit/function point and would end up closing shop altogether. Then everyone looses.
26 posted on 08/10/2003 2:20:09 PM PDT by Pro-Bush (Circumstances rule destiny)
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To: RaceBannon
Thanks! Bookmarked.
27 posted on 08/10/2003 2:20:38 PM PDT by Pro-Bush (Circumstances rule destiny)
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To: doosee
Not much is reported about this aspect but the Indians in Bangalore and elsewhere are jobjumping like crazy to get raises and promotions.

That's one side of this I frankly admit I didn't consider. The wage slaves don't relish the prospect of remaining slaves.

Won't help anything in this country, though.

28 posted on 08/10/2003 5:01:57 PM PDT by Euro-American Scum (Conservative babes with guns are so hot!)
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To: Pro-Bush
Why is the west so hypocrite. India was enslaved by the west for centuries. Now India is independent, free and a democratic country, learnt capitalism from the west and hey... they are just doing what they learnt from the west. Why is that pissing you off... Believe me, the software engineers of India are no prison labor like china... they are just hard working individuals like you and me.
29 posted on 12/04/2003 6:49:10 PM PST by creator (Cut this crap.)
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To: sarcasm
look. American companies sell cars in India. GM, FORD. Amereican companies sell military equipment to India. GE, Raytheon, Lockheed Martin etc etc. No offence, American companies get brains from India that is not much available elsewhere. Before you blaim Indians you must know that Indias are one of the most affluent communities in america that consumes very little social services. Average income of an Indian in america is about $68000+.

Now what have Indians contributed to america. The answer is technology.

1. Fiber optics to pentium chip to CD ROM to many many such things that have touched the heart and soul of every american and every human being on earth, things that make you and me communicate was all developed by Indians. Ask Sun, MS, IBM, Intel, Cisco, MIT, Bell Labs, ATT what indians have contriuted to american corporations??? May be you will get the answer.

30 posted on 12/04/2003 6:58:06 PM PST by creator (Hope this helps.)
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To: muawiyah; harpseal
The smart bombs are not 'pretty basic technology' except at the semiconductor level. What is elegant is the complete package of jam-resistance and inertial guidance backups that make it a truly devastating statement of American technical know-how...and a testament of the billions we spent on the research and development. India and China expect to be handed the production rights to this and other technologies...without ever spending a nickel of their own on R&D which I doubt they could do...even today.
31 posted on 12/06/2003 7:53:08 AM PST by Paul Ross (Reform Islam Now! -- Nuke Mecca!)
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To: Pro-Bush
As a result, American IT companies would be more expensive due to the increase cost per unit/function point and would end up closing shop altogether. Then everyone looses.[Sp.}

You have failed to answer the prognostication. And further your point, is more applicable if you turned it around. The American IT companies...and all others are going to outsource everything. I.e., in your words "closing up shop altogether." They are in fact still doing that...just via outsourcing. They will then no longer BE 'American' companies. They will be the American-branch sales offices for the foreign enterprise they will in fact have become. American citizens will be the ultimate losers...and will be vastly poorer. AND EXTREMELY MAD. Get real. And you will be unemployed and no longer on Free Republic or any other internet site because you won't be able to afford it.

32 posted on 12/06/2003 8:00:09 AM PST by Paul Ross (Reform Islam Now! -- Nuke Mecca!)
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To: RaceBannon
I hope everybody saw Lou Dobb's show last night.
He had a segment on outsourcing.
Citicorp is sending customer service (for several States) food stamps program. IMAGINE THAT......besides losing jobs. our tax dollars are going outside the Country.
One State senator....Judith Robson has sponsered a bill to outlaw such actions.
33 posted on 12/06/2003 8:13:15 AM PST by mickie
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To: sarcasm
From Lou Dobb's Friday show:

"Several lawmakers in Wisconsin are outraged by this betrayal. And we want to on this broadcast compliment State Senator Judith Robson (ph). She's urging the state to require customer service jobs for food stamp recipients be located in the state of Wisconsin. And Governor Jim Doyle agrees. He says the only way he'll renew the state's contract with Citigroup is if those jobs are returned to the United States".

Pa. is also outsoucing customer service jobs via Citigroup. I am calling my reps on Monday to complain.

34 posted on 12/06/2003 8:26:09 AM PST by mickie
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To: mickie
U.S. opposed to curbs on outsourcing

WASHINGTON JUNE 13. The Bush administration has assured India that it was totally opposed to anti-outsourcing bills and will try to resist legislations coming out of some States in this regard.

The assurance was given by the United States Trade Representative, Robert Zoellick, to the Union Minister of Commerce and Industry, Arun Jaitley.

The Union Minister, during a discussion with Mr. Zoellick, had said that restrictions by way of anti-outsourcing measures "are completely contrary to the spirit of market access.''

Meeting members of the media here on Thursday, Mr. Jaitley said that Mr. Zoellick was "very appreciative'' of our stance.

Mr. Zoellick had maintained that these proposals coming from States were "bad policies'' and that the "Federal Government opposes it and is trying to resist it.''

"We have taken up the issue and I am sure that the industries that are entitled to cost-effective and quality services would watch for its own interests,'' he said.

Over the last two days, the Union Minister had talks with a number of senior officials and functionaries of the Bush administration, including Mr. Zoellick and the Commerce Secretary, Don Evans. Mr. Jaitley raised a number of bilateral and multilateral issues and concerns of India, especially as it pertained to agriculture, industrial goods and market access.

"Wherever concerns we have we raised it with the United States,'' he said. Bilaterally issues such as generalised scheme of preferences, shrimp and mango exports and the totalisation agreement are some of the things that were dealt with.

The Minister was the keynote speaker at the Relaunch of the United States-India Commercial Dialogue and also made a presentation at the Carnegie Endowment.

From a bilateral perspective one of the issues that came up was the refund of social security contributions made by Indian professionals who came to the U.S. for temporary work.

Under the existing domestic law, 15 per cent of the wages goes to the social security fund and benefits could be availed of only after 10 years or 40 quarters.

Most of the Indian professionals had come on a three-year visa eligible for extension for another three years.

Their contribution to the social security fund is in the neighbourhood of $ 500 millions annually.

Mr. Zoellick has apparently made the point that the subject of any refund could be made only to a comparable social security system in India; and New Delhi has responded saying that while there may be no centralised social security system in India similar to the one in the U.S., there was a "multi-layered'' system of social security in India.

Among other things, India is asking the U.S. to look into this issue in the way Washington has dealt with a group of other countries.

35 posted on 12/06/2003 8:36:16 AM PST by sarcasm (Tancredo 2004)
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To: Willie Green
What say you?
36 posted on 12/06/2003 10:27:11 AM PST by mickie
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To: mickie
The hare and the tortoise
37 posted on 12/06/2003 10:43:52 AM PST by Willie Green (Go Pat Go!!!)
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To: Paul Ross
You have failed to answer the prognostication. And further your point, is more applicable if you turned it around. The American IT companies...and all others are going to outsource everything. I.e., in your words "closing up shop altogether." They are in fact still doing that...just via outsourcing. They will then no longer BE 'American' companies. They will be the American-branch sales offices for the foreign enterprise they will in fact have become. American citizens will be the ultimate losers...and will be vastly poorer. AND EXTREMELY MAD. Get real. And you will be unemployed and no longer on Free Republic or any other internet site because you won't be able to afford it.

I see the situation a bit differently.

In general, I am saying that if US companies did not have the legal right to outsource, and other IT companies in other countries could, then US companies would be at a competitive disadvantage because our products would be more expensive and wouldn't have access to a vital IT labor pool to tap into when needed.

Am I happy about losing jobs overseas? No I am not.

Cost cutting won't end, and neither will outsourcing.

Don't worry, Oracle, HP, Seibel, Convergys, DST Systems, Microsoft, Intel, etc. will not be headquartered offshore. If you have an example of a major IT company that has, I'd love to hear about it.
38 posted on 12/06/2003 3:53:50 PM PST by Pro-Bush (Homeland Security + Tom Ridge = Open Borders --> Demand Change!)
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To: Pro-Bush; harpseal; belmont_mark
if US companies did not have the legal right to outsource, and other IT companies in other countries could, then US companies would be at a competitive disadvantage because our products would be more expensive and wouldn't have access to a vital IT labor pool to tap into when needed....Don't worry, Oracle, HP, Seibel, Convergys, DST Systems, Microsoft, Intel, etc. will not be headquartered offshore. If you have an example of a major IT company that has, I'd love to hear about it.

This is not just wrong-headed...it's a sophomoric sophistry. And from this reply with your lipservice about not liking losing U.S. jobs aside (a mere political inconvenience, eh?) I can tell you that you are not concerned about America...only Corporate Headquarters.

First, you should be aware that coporate HQ's don't produce anything. They don't generate any revenues. They just consume. And with China siphoning off most of the Returns on Investment, via 'partnership' requirements... location of the HQ will not yield revenue flows commensurate with that status as formerly.

Second, HQ's are in fact transportable. Many of these Fortune 500 companies are set up as being...'incorporated' non-U.S. entities (HQ's in Barbados, or some other caribbean tax-havens)...even certain critical defense companies.

Third, and most crucially, bearing on the NEP-Scam we are witnessing play out for the second time in a century (some HQ-honchos NEVER learn): When the foreign entities that will in fact control the companies foreign assets NATIONALIZE their assets...the HQ's will go down the drain too...taking their shareholders with them. And you can't say it's a low probability. You have still failed to address the prognostication.

39 posted on 12/07/2003 6:18:26 AM PST by Paul Ross (Reform Islam Now! -- Nuke Mecca!)
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To: sarcasm
bump for later reading
40 posted on 12/07/2003 6:30:11 AM PST by Hat-Trick (Do you trust a government that does not trust you with guns?)
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To: Pro-Bush
This is not just wrong-headed...it's a sophomoric sophistry. And from this reply with your lipservice about not liking losing U.S. jobs aside (a mere political inconvenience, eh?) I can tell you that you are not concerned about America...only Corporate Headquarters.

Wrong. I believe in free markets, open competition, less government regulation, and a firm believer in Laissez-faire economics.

You seem to have the notion that you are ENTITLED to not have to compete with foreigners for your job. Is this true?
41 posted on 12/07/2003 1:45:46 PM PST by Pro-Bush (Homeland Security + Tom Ridge = Open Borders --> Demand Change!)
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To: Paul Ross
...Post #41 meant for you, sent to myself in error.
42 posted on 12/07/2003 1:47:24 PM PST by Pro-Bush (Homeland Security + Tom Ridge = Open Borders --> Demand Change!)
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To: Pro-Bush
You seem to have the notion that you are ENTITLED to not have to compete with foreigners for your job. Is this true?

I seem to be entitled to work for 8,000 a year when rent is 9,000 a year.

Thanks a chunk.

43 posted on 12/07/2003 1:54:14 PM PST by Lazamataz (PROUDLY POSTING WITHOUT READING THE ARTICLE SINCE 1999!)
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To: Lazamataz
US companies are seeking to minimize labor costs in order to maximize profits.

That's the capitalist business model that has worked fairly successfully for the past few hundred years. I don't blame corporate interests for striving to maximize profits.
44 posted on 12/07/2003 2:02:25 PM PST by Pro-Bush (Homeland Security + Tom Ridge = Open Borders --> Demand Change!)
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To: Pro-Bush
US companies are seeking to minimize labor costs in order to maximize profits. That's the capitalist business model that has worked fairly successfully for the past few hundred years. I don't blame corporate interests for striving to maximize profits.

And the hell with the rest of us, right?

45 posted on 12/07/2003 2:10:01 PM PST by Lazamataz (PROUDLY POSTING WITHOUT READING THE ARTICLE SINCE 1999!)
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To: sarcasm
Let's get one thing straight...those jobs going to India are NEVER coming back. I don't say this just to be pessimisstic, but rather it's a logical conclusion based on the realities of the modern world, plus the fact once any kind of job goes off-shore, it never comes back. If they do come back, it's usually as the employee of a FOREIGN-OWNED corporation.

I'm all for free markets and free trade, but India, China and the rest of Asia plays by very different rules than we do here in the good 'ole USA. In other words, they have governments that actually FAVOR business, often outrageously so. Our government, in contrast, (and I'm speaking of FEDERAL, STATE & LOCAL) does what they can to hinder business via means of regulations, taxes, and just plain stupidity. Many of you may be surprised that the State & Local government regulations & taxes can sometimes be more costly to a business than Federal regulations.

I love having access to low-priced, foreign made goods. But I don't like seeing so many of my freinds and co-workers out of work, many of them now being unemployed for one to two years. Well, technically they aren't really unemployed, just working at jobs that are paying them 10 to 30% of what they used to make. They range from engineers and programmers to graphic artists and accountants. We here in the Midwest have been hit especially hard, and the "recovery," in terms of new high-paying jobs, is still a far-off glimmer on the horizon.

P.S. The last conversation I had with a customer support person was an issue with a Microsoft application that had screwed up. The technician, once you got past the accent, was extremely helpful and had a fix in a matter of minutes. He was also based out of India -- forgot to ask him which city...

46 posted on 12/07/2003 2:28:51 PM PST by Ronzo (GOD alone is enough.)
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To: Lazamataz
And the hell with the rest of us, right?

Painful as it is to be enduring offshore outsourcing's effects on domestic employment, any attempt to legislatively restrict the practice would instead give our international competitors, who are under no such restriction, a cost advantage. That situation would lead ultimately to job losses anyway - or possible company bankruptcies - as companies lose market share because of noncompetitive pricing.

The legislated alternative of forbidding job outsourcing is like building a fort on a sand beach that's washing away below the fort's foundations.
47 posted on 12/07/2003 5:35:03 PM PST by Pro-Bush (Homeland Security + Tom Ridge = Open Borders --> Demand Change!)
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To: Pro-Bush
The whole "free-trade" argument really cracks me up. The people in favor of it love to go on and on about how wonderful it all is, while completely ignoring the fact that the people who are watching their jobs being shipped overseas are still allowed to vote.

Do you really want to see Hillary Clinton as President? Do you really want to see the Democrats take control of this country for the next forty years? Because that's EXACTLY what is going to be the result of this insane pursuit of profits at all costs, without any regard for the well-being of this country or the inevitable revolt by the voters at the polls.

Tell you what, since the corporations don't owe any loyalty to this country, and the politicians don't owe any loyalty to the people of this country, why don't you and your buddies go out and hire Ghurkas and Chicoms to fight in your next foreign war? Fair's fair and all that.
48 posted on 12/07/2003 5:50:56 PM PST by Elliott Jackalope (We send our kids to Iraq to fight for them, and they send our jobs to India. Now THAT'S gratitude!)
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To: Pro-Bush
Biometrics, IT Security, Defense, Genome Tech, Software Dev, CRM, etc are in the up-and-up in America...We'll do fine.

Robert Mugabe forces his subsistence farmers to move to a new piece of land each year. As such, the farmer has no proprietary interest in improving the property to be more productive. The farmer knows any attempt to prosper via excellence will be confiscated.

I reference the state of farmers in Zimbabwe as a model for what is happening in America. In America, we build new technologies from the ground up. When they become mature, we hand them to 3rd world countries and throw those who did the innovation on the streets. We've done it to steel, manufacturing and IT. Why should Americans feel any motivation to continue to innovate and create new industries when the historical record shows they will be dispossessed of their success as soon as possible?

49 posted on 12/07/2003 6:19:28 PM PST by Myrddin
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To: Elliott Jackalope
Do you really want to see Hillary Clinton as President? Do you really want to see the Democrats take control of this country for the next forty years? Because that's EXACTLY what is going to be the result of this insane pursuit of profits at all costs, without any regard for the well-being of this country or the inevitable revolt by the voters at the polls

What the hell are you talking about? You do not make any sense!

In a free-market economy, the consumer reigns.

Don't buy products from the likes of Direct TV or Microsoft if you feel so strongly about this.

I don't make the rules, and I don't recall The Bush administration, or any Republican for that matter, is pushing for limiting outsourcing.
50 posted on 12/07/2003 8:45:45 PM PST by Pro-Bush (Homeland Security + Tom Ridge = Open Borders --> Demand Change!)
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