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1 posted on 08/11/2003 8:57:56 AM PDT by fishtank
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To: fishtank
And yes, I am aware that carbon dating can be wrong, sometimes severely so, BUT...it isn't always and the abundance of data suggesting an old earth is tremendous.
186 posted on 08/11/2003 3:25:08 PM PDT by rwfromkansas (http://www.collegemedianews.com *some interesting radio news reports here; check it out*)
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To: fishtank
Nah, must be another figment of the imaginations of us creationists.
193 posted on 08/11/2003 3:40:17 PM PDT by Terriergal ("multipass!")
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To: fishtank
OOPS the article's from a Creation science website, It *must* be ignored/considered unscientific/biased.

ahem...

208 posted on 08/11/2003 3:54:23 PM PDT by Terriergal ("multipass!")
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To: fishtank
Wish I hadn't promised myself never to visit any creationist vs evolution thread ever again.

Then I could quip that any idiot who doesn't even know the difference between C14 and 14C (it's hard, but I'm resisting the temptation) has no business posting anything on any subject.

261 posted on 08/11/2003 4:52:54 PM PDT by Publius6961 (Californians are as dumm as a sack of rocks)
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To: fishtank
I have only skimmed the article, but how do they address mechanisms known to add carbon-14 to old carbon? (Showing, for example, that the level of C-14 is independent of local concentrations of uranium, radium, thorium, etc. would be a good start.)
300 posted on 08/11/2003 7:57:09 PM PDT by Karl_Lembke
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To: fishtank
TBCOL
357 posted on 08/12/2003 9:07:16 AM PDT by Harmless Teddy Bear (Under advice from my lawyer I will now be known as Mostly Harmless Teddy Bear)
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To: fishtank
I notice their is no reference to the article being published, or accepted for publication, by any recognized refereed scientific journal.

Without that, it is no more reliably truthful than The Onion.

So9

417 posted on 08/12/2003 3:13:37 PM PDT by Servant of the Nine (Goldwater Republican)
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To: fishtank
ping for later read......((ping))
435 posted on 08/12/2003 6:53:01 PM PDT by carl in alaska (Let's pray for the birth of democracy in Iraq.)
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To: fishtank; wysiwyg; Right Wing Professor; SengirV; IpaqMan; sleepy_hollow; VadeRetro; 50sDad; ...
First, sorry for the mega-ping, but I tried to catch everyone who had expressed some manner of interest in the validity in the original article. I believe the mystery may be solved.

First, a quick recap of what the "too much Carbon-14" measurements may mean (bear with me please):

1. Systematic error in the testing equipment or methods.

2. External contamination.

3. Internal contamination (i.e., new Carbon-14 being produced within the sample in some manner).

4. All organic samples really *are* no older than 40,000 years.

5. Decay rates have varied in the past.

6. Bad data, dishonest reporting, sloppy technique, fabricated results, etc.

7. Some combination thereof, including the original authors' overburdened combo of "they indicate a max of 40,000 years because a) nothing died earlier than that *and* b) they're even much younger than those careful 40,000-year measurements indicate by an order of magnitude because *also* c) decay rates have changed drastically from time to time *and* d) so have production rates". Uh huh...

From the original article in this thread:

#1 seems ruled out by the repeatability of the results for different samples, and the fact that some samples measure just fine at "damned little C-14" as expected. Although it would still be possible that something about the testing methods may produce spurious results only when applied to samples with certain compositions, but that's unlikely.

#2 seems ruled out by the many methods which were used to try to "wash away" external contaminants.

#3 seems possible, and that's the direction I was leaning, but some quick back-of-the-envelope calculations led me to think that they might not be able to account for as much C-14 as was measured (although I'm hardly a nuclear physicist, and may have overlooked some possibilities).

#4 is incredibly implausible on its face, for reasons I've given earlier -- there are just *too* many other lines of evidence that firmly indicate that the Earth really is quite old.

#5 is highly unlikely, *no* evidence has been found that decay rates have ever fluctuated while we've been monitoring them, nor that they ever have in the past (since that would have left tell-tale signs).

#6 is tempting, but... Other than the fact that I think it's pretty sloppy to try to compare readings from multiple researchers across multiple labs across multiple years (since their techniques and precisions and equipment are all likely to vary), I'm willing to give the authors and the researchers they cite the benefit of the doubt.

#7 is... Imaginative, but unlikely cubed. Not only does it postulate *multiple* outlandish deviations from established principles of science just to "reconcile" one anomalous finding, but it flies in the face of innumerable other findings which are much better supported *and* its proposed solution would have caused countless other noticeable effects (like, say, a million-fold increase in natural radiation which would have flash-fried Noah) which simply are not the case.

So since we seem to have eliminated -- or at least cast strong doubt on -- all possibilities, what the heck *is* the explanation for the results?

I can't resist a good puzzle, so I've been researching this question off and on all day. I've learned a lot of interesting things in the process (and expanded my IE bookmarks even further), but I think I hit paydirt when I came across the following:

Abstract

New dating confirms that people occupied the Australian continent before the earliest time inferred from conventional radiocarbon analysis. Many of the new ages were obtained by accelerator mass spectrometry 14C dating after an acid–base–acid pretreatment with bulk combustion (ABA-BC) or after a newly developed acid–base–wet oxidation pretreatment with stepped combustion (ABOX-SC). The samples (charcoal) came from the earliest occupation levels of the Devil's Lair site in southwestern Western Australia. Initial occupation of this site was previously dated 35,000 14C yr B.P. Whereas the ABA-BC ages are indistinguishable from background beyond 42,000 14C yr B.P., the ABOX-SC ages are in stratigraphic order to ~55,000 14C yr B.P. The ABOX-SC chronology suggests that people were in the area by 48,000 cal yr B.P. Optically stimulated luminescence (OSL), electron spin resonance (ESR) ages, U-series dating of flowstones, and 14C dating of emu eggshell carbonate are in agreement with the ABOX-SC 14C chronology. These results, based on four independent techniques, reinforce arguments for early colonization of the Australian continent.

-- From Early Human Occupation at Devil's Lair, Southwestern Australia 50,000 Years Ago (published online 11 March 2002)

Oh look, someone's broken the "radiocarbon barrier". And the fact that they did it with a new method for removing external contaminants seems pretty convincing evidence that the "radiocarbon barrier" was due to, well, external contaminants. Looks like those prior researchers weren't off-base after all (the ones that the authors of the PDF sneered at for attributing the results to contaminants).

Note the interesting parts of the abstract, which I've highlighted in color.

The green portion notes that this is a new technique for removing contaminants.

The red portion is key -- it notes that although older pretreatments for eliminating contaminants still showed the 40,000-year-old "radiocarbon barrier", the new technique allowed readings way beyond 40kya -- up to 55,000 years. Furthermore, in a NERC grant, one of the authors was granted 19,627 British pounds to develop a facility to apply the technique in greater volume, with claimed ability to read dates up to 60,000 years.

Furthermore, the technique is shown to not just produce higher numbers by some means, but to do them accurately, as matched against the results of four other independent dating methods (blue text).

So to summarize:

1. The PDF authors concluded that the "radiocarbon barrier" was due to some real feature of the specimens (i.e., they all really did die "recently") and pooh-poohed the notion that it was due to contaminants. However, the fact that a particular technique can make specimens read older than the proposed "barrier" *and* match the results of other independent dating methods pretty much blows that one out of the water.

2. The fact that a contaminant-removing method has succeeded in overcoming the "barrier" indicates that the barrier was indeed caused by contaminants.

3. The fact that the dates "uncovered" by the method make sense (i.e. are consistent with the origin of the specimens and their relationship to each other and to younger specimens) and match four independent dating methods very strongly indicates that the findings are "real" and not artifacts of the processing method.

4. The new higher results can't be the result of "washing out" too much of the original Carbon-14 -- C-14 dating is done by measuring the ratio of C-14 to C-12 within the sample, and this will remain constant despite vigorous "washing" because any cleaning method is going to remove proportionately equal amounts of C-14 and C-12 because they are chemically identical.

5. At its upper limits, contamination will always be a problem for techniques like C-14 dating which rely on measuring the amount of very trace amounts of material. Even at the best of times (i.e., before an organism's death) Carbon-14 only makes up 0.0000000002% (not a typo) of the Carbon in the organism. *Very* small amounts of additional C-14 will contribute a significant amount of "noise" to the measurements of the smaller amounts of C-14 present in an old sample. This is not an indictment of C-14 dating in general, though, since such contamination has a far smaller effect on the relatively larger amounts of original C-14 being measured in younger samples. It's only when stretching the technique to its upper end that contamination "noise" becomes almost as large (or larger) than the true amount you're attempting to measure. Previously, the best techniques would still leave enough contamination to swamp a 40,000+ year reading. With the new more effective ABOX-SC technique, the noise level has been pushed back to 60,000 years -- but it's still there. The authors of the PDF would have you believe that this is because there's always measurable amounts of "original" C-14 in all samples. But this does not follow. The much more mundane (and likely) explanation is that there will always be an unavoidable amount of modern C-14 creeping into everything, like the way that sand on a beach always gets into your socks and shorts no matter how you try to avoid it.

6. This is the sort of thing which would have been caught by peer-review publishing. That's one of the many reasons why it's valuable.

7. In reference [12] the PDF authors cite an earlier work by some of the same authors as the article I abstracted above, and their overview of it sounds rather like ABOX-SC, or an earlier version of it -- and yet they did not point out the breaking of the 40,000kya radiocarbon barrier. Call me suspicious, but I'm going to track down a copy of that earlier work and see whether the PDF authors glossed over its implications or presented it misleadingly (although it's possible that the earlier work had not yet achieved the above success). I'll report back after I do that.

452 posted on 08/13/2003 2:06:11 AM PDT by Ichneumon
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To: fishtank
I didn't read the article, but will if you assure me it explains how Noah got the kangaroos, dodo birds, llamas, tapirs, and other remote species on board the Ark and then back to their current habitiat in such a short time and without their leaving any evidence of such a migration.
460 posted on 08/13/2003 4:05:54 AM PDT by laredo44
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To: fishtank
The Institute for Creative Research has spoken.
495 posted on 08/13/2003 8:37:31 AM PDT by sakic
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To: All
I haven't been following the thread, so I don't know whether this point has been raised, but I have concerns about this methodology.

The samples they are examining are either devoid or essentially devoid of carbon-14. They therefore can't measure the C14 decay spectrum, or apply x-ray fluorescence, as they might with a more modern sample, so they use an accelerator for mass spectrometry. That's fair, but it requires an exquisitely detailed understanding of the backgrounds, all the way down to the limits of their sensitivity.

They go on at length about how they expect to find no C14 in their sample, and how careful they were to avoid C14 contamination from more modern sources. That's a red herring, however, because that's not the only potential background to this technique. The technique essentially measures the charge-to-mass ratio of the nuclei in the sample. C14 has essentially the same charge-to-mass ratio as Zn70, Mo98 and Cd112, along with the potential atmospheric contaminants Kr84 and Xe126. Some of these are quite abundant, and in any of these samples they are bound to dominate the C14 by a large factor.

To be sure, the charge-to-mass ratios of these isotopes are not exactly identical, thanks to the curve of binding energy. But while they may be able to get good separation of the peaks, they will have a devil of a time understanding the tails, which will necessarily overlap at some level. This discussion should have made up the bulk of the paper, but I don't see it even mentioned anywhere.

And I haven't even brought up the possibility of contamination from incompletely ionized atoms within the accelerator. Couldn't they at least quote their estimates for these backgrounds? What is the shape of the C14 peak in their detector, and what data cuts did they use to bracket it? It's nowhere here. Did the shape of the measured C14 peak match their expectations? Blank out. It's as if they treated the accelerator as a black box that spits out abundances (of which they quote one).

767 posted on 08/14/2003 8:57:06 AM PDT by Physicist
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To: fishtank
Good article.
802 posted on 08/14/2003 11:56:13 AM PDT by goodseedhomeschool (returned)
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To: fishtank
ICR has some very good information on this topic. I like the site very much. The impact articles are always so informative too. I am glad to see this here.
806 posted on 08/14/2003 12:13:52 PM PDT by goodseedhomeschool (returned)
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To: fishtank
To human eyes, too much of light
Is blinding as the blackest night.
And this is so, too, of the mind,
In total ignorance it's blind.
But more truth than it can absorb
Will overwhelm the mental orb.
So, lest our vision burn to ashes
God shows us truth in bits and flashes,
White revelations that the brain
Can comprehend and yet stay sane.
And we, poor fools, demand truth's noon
Who scarce can bear its crescent moon.
  -- "White Revelations," by Georgia Starbuck Galbraith.

946 posted on 08/28/2003 12:06:28 AM PDT by ImaGraftedBranch (Education starts in the home. Education stops in the public schools)
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To: fishtank
What amazes and saddens me is that, after 50,000 years, Man is still the primative superstitious animal that he began as. Our fear of death has invented a "father" that will comfort us after we leave this world and give us an afterlife of joy which we cannot achieve on this brutal cruel time here on Earth. It's hard to accept and it's frightening: we are here but a short time, and nothing is after death. But that is Life. The truth is harder to accept than a "magic man in the sky", but I'd rather live in reality than in fantasy.
956 posted on 09/26/2003 7:42:06 PM PDT by Merdoug
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