[Zack Nguyen]

This is long, but I believe worth it. The bold sections are my additions. I left out some parts of the Foreward. I did not include the footnotes as that would have made a lengthy post truly mammoth. The book is free, and I would recommend that everyone follow the link and read it fo themselves.

It is my hope that the above excerpt from Dr. North's excellent book will spark discussion on the current state of the American Church.

Currently, the only Protestant denomination that has successfully turned itself from the left to the right are the Southern Baptists. I think this is because of their non-heirarchical nature. Though they pool missions dollars and money for seminaries, the hiring of staff and pastors is completely controlled by the local bodies. Therefore the grassroots stayed conservative even as the leadership trended left. This made it possible for the grassroots to take back the convention.

This last Sunday my family and I attended a Bible Church. Bible Churches are a relatively new phenomenon in American Protestanism: completely unaffiliated autonomous churches who have no denominational connection whatsoever. They are essentially a response to the liberalization of the Protestant church.

It occurred to me that these churches may have the best answer to liberalism. Since they fund their own missionaries and works of good service, liberals cannot take them over from the top down. In order for liberals to take over Bible churches they would have to do so one at a time, and that is virtually impossible.

What are your thoughts about this excerpt?

[ibheath]

bookmark for later reading

[tom h]

I have no time to read the excerpt but I belong to an evangelical Presbyterian Church and while I love the place and the pastoral staff is clearly Bible-focused and conservative on the right things I still have some concerns.

For example, they are pro-environment and think that buying a small car is a moral act.

They are a reflection of their generation but I think that some of these theological seminaries are on the liberal side, also.

[Fitzcarraldo]

Francis Schaeffer was also concerned about this.

/http://www.rationalpi.com/theshelter/

http://www.francis-schaeffer.com/

[anniegetyourgun]

Thanks for posting this. Very interesting read.

Left the PCUSA many years ago, despite a good local congregation. Couldn't continue to have them taking our hard-earned tithes to "re-imagine God" in their own image. We have not returned to a denominational church since. Despite the protests of RC's and others, I have no reason to believe that the first church of Christians was anything other than non-denominational.

Having said that, I wish you the best in finding your new church home.

[frithguild]

I am a confirmed catholic who has been attending a Presbyterian Church for a couple of years. My wife grew up in a Presbyterian church. I am thinking of joining, but I just have not committed to taking that leap. Perhaps I have been concerned that I do not really know what it is that I am joining.

I will read this book. Thanks.

[ruppertdog]

This is a problem I am dealing with as a member of PCUSA. We have a conservative, older pastor who is a good leader. I am scared to death as to what we will get from Columbia or Princeton when he retires in the next few years.

I wouldn't say that the church has become more liberal, I am just troubled by the cultural aspects it has absorbed- casual dress, contemporary music and a much more evangelical and emotional religious experience rather than a traditional intellegent approach to God.

As PCUSA luminaries like Frank Harrington and his contemporaries gradually die out and retire, it is apparent that those who replace them are very different in the pulpit. The seminaries are giving us New Coke instead of Coke, and the results have been negative in some of the denominations' largest churches.

Go to the PCUSA website where they keep the attendance records for Peachtree Presbyterian Church. After Dr. Harrington died, attendance dropped way off, followed by a steep decline in membership. This was one of the largest congregations in the nation.

http://apps.pcusa.org/chstats/index.html?ch_pin=22087

PCUSA is actually trying to allow God to reach everyone, in the tradition of John Knox. This includes all sinners, no matter what the sin. At the same time the church is sacrificing Knox's respect for and fear of God for greater mass appeal by allowing solemn tradition to be replaced by pop culture like casual dress, newer, hipper music and patently inoffensive sermons full of meaningless props.

Newer preachers generally tend to ignore or indirectly address the complex moral issues of today's society for fear of being offensive. That religion has become a reflection of culture in many ways in order to reach more souls is an interesting paradox. I think it has hurt the spread of Chrisianity more than it has helped.

This is my experience in Metro Atlanta. It is not limited to just the Presbyterian church. All of the newer mainline churches seem to have identical services and theology, with the execption being Roman Catholic, some newer PCA and EPC preachers(Presbyterian demoninations), and Southern Baptists. Any one else have any experiences to share?

[armymarinemom]

My father in-law fell into liberalism due to his church hook line and sinker. I have noticed that he has partially removed his head out of the sand due to the war and liberals stand on homosexuality.
Before the war the local leader of the United Methodist Church in his city declared that he was a citizen of the world and had nothing against Iraq. That is a pretty bold statement for Socialism.
This statement made my father in-law open his eyes a bit as to just what what was going on within his own Church.
He has also noticed that liberals are full steam ahead with a lot of issues that he personally considers immoral.
The marriage of liberals and protestants is at a definite crossroads at this time.

[Wrigley]

Interesting read ping.

[WhiteGuy]

BRIAN: Are you the Judean People's Front?

REG: F- off!

BRIAN: What?

REG: Judean People's Front. We're the People's Front of Judea! Judean People's Front. Cawk.

FRANCIS: Wankers.

BRIAN: Can I... join your group?

REG: No. Piss off.

BRIAN: I didn't want to sell this stuff. It's only a job. I hate the Romans as much as anybody.

PEOPLE'S FRONT OF JUDEA: Shhhh. Shhhh. Shhh. Shh. Shhhh.

REG: Schtum.

JUDITH: Are you sure?

BRIAN: Oh, dead sure. I hate the Romans already.

REG: Listen. If you really wanted to join the P.F.J., you'd have to really hate the Romans.

BRIAN: I do!

REG: Oh, yeah? How much?

BRIAN: A lot!

REG: Right. You're in. Listen. The only people we hate more than the Romans are the f - ing Judean People's Front.

P.F.J.: Yeah...

JUDITH: Splitters.

P.F.J.: Splitters...

FRANCIS: And the Judean Popular People's Front.

P.F.J.: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Splitters. Splitters...

LORETTA: And the People's Front of Judea.

P.F.J.: Yeah. Splitters. Splitters...

REG: What?

LORETTA: The People's Front of Judea. Splitters.

REG: We're the People's Front of Judea!

LORETTA: Oh. I thought we were the Popular Front.

REG: People's Front! C-huh.

FRANCIS: Whatever happened to the Popular Front, Reg?

REG: He's over there.

P.F.J.: Splitter!

[marsh2]

here is an interesting site for "progressive" Presbyterians:
http://www.witherspoonsociety.org/index.html

Here is a general article on the greening of the church:
http://www.worldwatch.org/press/news/2003/04/08/

Religious Environmentalism Blooms on Earth Day

Washington, D.C.— Spring trees in bloom aren’t the only things turning green these days. So are religious groups of all stripes. People of faith are giving a boost to the environmental movement, offering a spiritual dimension to Earth Day.

"Passover and Easter both celebrate life and its renewal, as does Earth Day," says Gary Gardner, author of Invoking the Spirit: Religion and Spirituality in the Quest for a Sustainable World. "The coincidence of these religious and secular events is symbolic of the increasing collaboration among the religious and sustainability communities."

This collaboration, says Gardner, is founded on complementary strengths. Environmentalists have a strong grounding in science. Religious institutions enjoy moral authority and a grassroots presence that shape the worldviews and lifestyles of billions. As these groups meld their strengths, they are successfully addressing issues from sustainable consumption in Sri Lanka to green investing by stockholders in New York.

In the United States, 3,500 Lutheran, Presbyterian, Unitarian, and Quaker congregations have committed to purchasing fairly-traded, shade-grown, often organic coffee. Just five years old, the Interfaith Coffee Program now supplies about one percent of the country’s congregations and is the fastest-growing source of revenue for the Equal Exchange Coffee Company, the program’s sponsor. (Excerpted from article.)

Here is an article on eclesiastical green theory: http://www.commonlawreview.com/review/environmentalism.htm

Here is an article about Paul Gorman - Executive Director of the National Religious Partnership for the Environment, an alliance of American faith communities served by the Coalition on Environment and Jewish life, the Evangelical Environmental Network, the National Council of Churches of Christ, and the U.S. Catholic Conference. http://www.thegoodsteward.com/article.php3?articleID=507

[EdReform]

Bump & Ping

read later...

[Tribune7]

Bump

[foreverfree]

bump

[Ciexyz]

As a member of the Presbyterian Church (USA), I read this article with great interest.

That said, I've made it a point NEVER to comment on any thread on FR or elsewhere concerning gay issues. I simply add, "btt".