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Help with Debate ^ | 8/11/2003 | Armymarinemom

Posted on 08/11/2003 2:05:08 PM PDT by armymarinemom

I need help fast. I have agreed to debate a spokesman for the group Bring them Home Now for CNN tomorrow. You can see from the links on their website who these people are associated with. I need input from everyone because to be honest I'm scared to death!
Their spokesman is prior special forces who has a son in Iraq. This smacks a lot like Veterans for Peace.

TOPICS: War on Terror; Your Opinion/Questions
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1 posted on 08/11/2003 2:05:08 PM PDT by armymarinemom
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To: soccer8
2 posted on 08/11/2003 2:07:55 PM PDT by T Minus Four
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To: armymarinemom
DASCHLE IN February 1998 (under a Democrat President):

"If not, it's back to business. It is the use of force. It is a swift response militarily and by whatever other means may be necessary." "...if nothing changes, the use of force at some point would be inevitable."

DASCHLE IN September 2002 (under a Republican President):

"What has changed over the course of the last 10 years that brings this country to the belief that it has to act in a pre-emptive fashion?"

3 posted on 08/11/2003 2:11:26 PM PDT by SunStar (Democrats piss me off!)
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To: armymarinemom
No one seems to remember what Bill Clinton said in 1998, before he failed to follow through with his obligations of enforcing the Gulf War cease-fire:

"[Saddam Hussein's] regime threatens the safety of his people, the stability of his region, and the security of all the rest of us," Bill Clinton said in February 1998. "Some day, some way, I guarantee you, he'll use the arsenal. Let there be no doubt, we are prepared to act."

"I know the people we may call upon in uniform are ready. The American people have to be ready as well."

4 posted on 08/11/2003 2:13:00 PM PDT by SunStar (Democrats piss me off!)
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To: SunStar

New York Post ^ | 8/03/03 | NILES LATHEM

Posted on 08/03/2003 7:49 AM PDT by kattracks

August 3, 2003 -- WASHINGTON - Daily attacks on U.S. soldiers, infiltration of terrorists, and mischief-making by Iran and Syria have dominated the postwar headlines over the last two months - creating an image of a quagmire in the making.

But the guerrilla war is only a part of the story of what's taking place in Iraq after the fall of Saddam Hussein, according to administration officials and outside experts.

Quietly and steadily, U.S. and coalition forces and the civilian administration have made real progress in rebuilding the Iraqi nation - a society, an economy and an infrastructure shattered by three decades of tyranny, war, neglect and corruption

In just two months, 100 independent newspapers have started, garbage is regularly picked up off the streets, oil fields are running, banks are open and a vast majority of Iraqi university students have finished their final exams.

The humanitarian crisis many experts predicted has been averted.

"Although we might get the impression that our involvement over there is tottering on the edge of failure, the fact is that in two months, we have brought Iraq to a point in recovery that Germany, Italy and Japan after World War II didn't reach until after a year and a half," said Cmdr. Chris Isleib, spokesman for the Coalition Provisional Authority.

Based on interviews with coalition authorites and experts, here's The Post's report card of the progress in Iraq.






Critics of the Bush administration's war policy warned that a post-Saddam Iraq would explode into religious and ethnic tensions and would eventually become the Middle East version of the Balkans.

That has not happened.

Efforts to transition from coalition occupation to a new democratic government have been quicker and more efficient than in Afghanistan or the former Yugoslavia.

A governing council was formed earlier this month and on Tuesday, it announced that the presidency would rotate among a nine-member leadership committee.

Things are progressing so well that Paul Bremer, chief civilian administrator in Iraq, said in Baghdad last week, "It is not unrealistic to think that we could possibly have general elections by mid-2004, and that is when our work here will be done."

Grade A

"The work being done to form a new government was clearly the most impressive thing we saw and is proceeding much more efficiently than anyone imagined it would," said Bethsheba Crocker, part of a outside team invited to tour Iraq.



BASIC health services have been restored to 90 percent of their prewar levels in the north, 80 percent in the south and 75 percent in Baghdad.

All 240 hospitals and 1,200 outpatient clinics are now open. The coalition says that 3,000 tons of medical supplies have been shipped into Iraq in the last 50 days.

United Arab Emirates, Italy and Japan are working to refurbish hospitals damaged by Saddam's death squads during the war, and a new state-of-the-art outpatient clinic opened in Baghdad's al-Mansur district last week.

But Iraq's health-care situation is one of the most dire in the Middle East. Decades of corruption and mismanagement have left child- mortality rates and life expectancies at record poor levels.

Over the next six months, the coalition will earmark $210 million to be spent by the Ministry of Health. By contrast, Saddam only spent $20 million on health-care services in Iraq in 2002.


Grade A-


"The coalition has done a good job getting the health-care system back to prewar levels...Their next challenge will be to bring this system back to pre-sanctions levels and that will take more time and resources," said Johanna Mendelson Forman, of the U.N. Foundation.



The widespread food crisis that experts predicted for Iraq before the war did not materialize.

Despite attacks by Saddam's goon squads on food-distribution centers in an effort to create another Somalia, the overall system is up and running - and getting food to the Iraqi people.

The Pentagon says 1.2 million metric tons of food has entered Iraq since the end of the war and another 2.2 million metric tons will arrive by the end of October.

The Coalition Provision Authority has also been purchasing local harvests, including 450,000 metric tons of Iraqi wheat and more than 300,000 metric tons of Iraqi barley to keep Iraq's fragile agriculture system intact.


Grade A

"There is plenty of food in the country," said World Food Program spokesman Antonia Paradela.



The biggest surprise and the biggest problem facing coalition forces after security.

Iraq's electrical infrastructure was in poor shape after years of neglect before the war.

Now the power grid is being sabotaged almost daily by Saddam's goon squads - adding to the misery of the Iraqi people and preventing the orderly flow of water, which depends on electricity for its pumping stations.

The coalition has made great efforts in recent weeks to improve the situation - getting 39,000 electrical workers back on the job and budgeting $294 million through December to make improvements. Water has been flowing from Kuwait for weeks giving Iraqis the supplies they need.

The coalition has also budgeted an additional $73 million through December for water and sewer projects.

Grade C


"We are not quite back at prewar levels, but we are hoping we will be in a relatively small number of weeks," said Andy Bearpack, director of operations and infrastructure for the Coalition Provisional Authority.



THE coalition has hired and is training a force of 34,000 Iraqi policemen patrolling in 58 of 89 Iraqi cities and will have 61,000 by the end of the year, as well as a civil-defense force of 7,000.

There are already 1,000 traffic police, 1,000 customs inspectors and 1,000 guards at key installations, according to recent figures released by Bernard Kerik, the former New York police commissioner in charge of rebuilding Iraq's security.

The Iraqi army and a border-patrol force are now being reconstituted and about 11,000 people will soon be trained.

But the deaths of American soldiers in postwar combat and what is now clearly an organized, preplanned campaign by Saddam's Ba'ath Party loyalists to sabotage Iraq's electricity and water supplies is the No. 1 problem facing the coalition rebuilding efforts.

Pentagon officials have noted that the guerrilla war is mostly centered in the so-called Sunni triangle around Baghdad and Tikrit, where support for Saddam was the strongest, while other areas in the south, north and west are relatively tranquil.

Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and other officials also noted that the 148,000 U.S. troops are arresting an average of 200 Ba'ath Party thugs a day, have seized more than 8,200 tons of ammunition, captured or killed 38 of the 55 most-wanted Iraqi regime figures, and have about 6,000 lower-level Ba'ath leaders in custody.

"Fighting is still going on, which slows our other efforts and creates fear and grief for Americans and Iraqis both. But it won't last," said Cmdr. Chris Isleib, spokesman for the Coalition Provisional Authority.


Grade C


"The war plan clearly assumed a more benign postwar environment. The coalition did not have the resources needed, and it is still scrambling to catch up," said James Dobbins, director of the International Security and Defense Policy Center.



In disastrous shape before the war, the conditions are even more dire now.

The coalition estimated that more than 50 percent of the population was unemployed before the war.

Those numbers have grown with the dissolution of the Iraqi military and ministries and war damage to many businesses.

Even if oil production is restored to pre-sanctions levels, the revenues will have to support an Iraqi population that has tripled since the Gulf War in 1991.


Massive efforts are under way to repair the damage and transition from a Stalinist welfare state to a more vibrant free-market economy. But they have been hampered by the ongoing security crisis.

Recent progress includes independence of Iraq's central bank and the establishment of a trading bank to guarantee payment for imported goods.

A new Iraqi currency will soon be introduced, giving the country the first single currency in its modern history, and efforts are under way in the governing council to rewrite ownership laws.

But the slow pace of economic recovery has created concern inside the Bush administration, which is considering tapping an expert to oversee efforts to attract foreign investment and aid as well as restructure Iraq's debt, which has climbed to $28 billion, the largest debt per capita in human history.

Grade B

"The Coalition Provisional Authority needs to be very creative in the ways it handles the foreign debt, and it especially needs to be creative in the way it handles the oil revenues to make sure it reaches the Iraqi people," said Barton, of the CSIS team.



All of Iraq's universities are open, and a majority of Iraqi students were able to complete final exams that had been delayed during the war.

The coalition has already finished refurbishing 584 of the 1,000 Iraqi schools on its target list for reconstruction by September.

Many schools were damaged by the Ba'ath Party militias during the war and some later destroyed by looters.

The coalition expects half of the country's schools to reopen in September, but many parents say they won't send their children back to school until the streets are safer.

The coalition plans to provide new textbooks to most schools that will be devoid of Ba'athist and pro-Saddam ideology.


Grade B


"Yes, the university students finished their exams, but under extraordinarily difficult circumstances. The university I saw in Basra was indeed open, but there were packs of dogs roaming around, furniture was stripped, there were no blackboards," said Frank Barton, one of the Center for Strategic and International Studies experts invited by the Pentagon to tour Iraq.



One of the big success stories of the war was the military's Special Forces operations to seize control of Iraq's valuable oil fields and prevent Saddam from destroying them.

The fields are now up and running, and the land mines have been removed from the vital southern port of Um Qasar.

Iraq is now once again on the world oil market, giving the strife-torn country the future economic capability to rebuild its shattered economy.

But the Pentagon-organized team that visited Iraq found that the infrastructure was more badly damaged and neglected than the coalition had anticipated in its prewar planning and that sabotage and the ongoing electricity woes have been creating problems.

As a result, only 1.3 million barrels of oil a day are being pumped from the world's second-largest oil reserves.

That's far short of the 2.5 million barrels a day that were being pumped before Operation Iraqi Freedom and the 3.5 million barrels a day that were being produced before the Persian Gulf War in 1991.


Grade B


"I think it came as a surprise to everyone just how badly degraded the oil infrastructure was and how much of an effort it will take to get this vital part of Iraq's economy fully functioning again," Crocker said.


With Post Wire Services

5 posted on 08/11/2003 2:14:36 PM PDT by BushCountry (To the last, I will grapple with Democrats. For hate's sake, I spit my last breath at Liberals.)
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To: armymarinemom
I am so disgusted -- I looked at their website and this totally dishonors my brother who is in Iraq and all the soldiers who are serving with them. The whiny mom who complained that her son was there and had lost 40 lbs. but didn't complain -- it's HIS LIFE!!! Thank God for me like him who serve!! As for him having no battlefield experience, well where does she think he'd get that besides in a war! ARGH!! ** Off soapbox **
6 posted on 08/11/2003 2:17:49 PM PDT by StarCMC
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To: armymarinemom; 68-69TonkinGulfYatchClub; Johnny Gage
Tonk and Johnny, our FRiend needs a mega-ping!

Mom, this question has been debated in previous threads, around the time the 'bring them home' sentiment first showed up in the national media...the most succinct comments made centered around 2 points:

1) Osama Bin Laden was involved with Farrah-Aidid in Somalia, and was emboldened in his actions against the U.S. when he saw how we walked away from there after the 'Black Hawk Down' incident. When you let a bully intimidate you, you lose.

2) Many of the mass graves we've been finding in Iraq contain the remains of Iraqis who, having heeded our call to rebel in 1990/91, rose up against Saddam Hussein. We left them without support with tragic results.

I'm sure once this plea gets pinged, you'll receive a whole lot more input. I just hope the CNN people treat you with respect as you make your points...

7 posted on 08/11/2003 2:19:58 PM PDT by HiJinx (The Right person, in the Right place, at the Right do His work.)
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To: armymarinemom
These people are a commie front group.

The guy behind it Stan Goff, "a member of the Speakers & Organizers Bureau of the Southern Peace Research and Education Center, the Institute for Southern Studies:" website here He is supposedly a former masters sargeant.

You can see who his friends are at the link above or this s one here

In a word, the usual commie traitors who are upsetting the families of our soldiers for the same treasonous reasons they have always had.

Their whole reason for existence is to cynically manipulate the worried families of armed forces members to further their own extreme left agenda.

8 posted on 08/11/2003 2:21:14 PM PDT by pierrem15
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To: armymarinemom
Their site links "Veterans for Peace." They should be sued for false advertising.

Sorry about the formatting errors on the last post, I'm so angry I can hardly type.

9 posted on 08/11/2003 2:23:38 PM PDT by pierrem15
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To: armymarinemom
I have agreed to debate a spokesman for the group

Looks like you jumped before you looked.

10 posted on 08/11/2003 2:28:13 PM PDT by verity
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To: armymarinemom
Here are some good links.
11 posted on 08/11/2003 2:29:16 PM PDT by LibertyJihad
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To: armymarinemom
Nasty bunch, aren't they.

Don't be nervous, you'll do fine if you remember that if we leave with our job unfinished, those who died, will have died in vain. To leave now, because of fear would be immoral. We have invaded Iraq for good reason and now our job is to leave it better than we found it. It's what Americans do.

This is not a "Vietnam", because it is not a political war. It is, however, a war of defense. To paraphrase John Dunn; America is not an island. Any injustice anywhere in the world, diminishes the US and threatens it as well. Your opponents should not ask why we are there, but why we and the British are the only ones that are.

Good Luck,

12 posted on 08/11/2003 2:37:38 PM PDT by elbucko
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To: armymarinemom
Don't get defensive or angry at any time, nor respond to any personal attack if one is made. Use humor to respond to the most egregious part of each rant and pretty much ignore the rest while you make a related point. Don't be afraid to take a moment to think. There's no way to win against the sophistry of the other guy's position--if he doesn't make a cogent point, you need not respond to it.

The absolutely best way to debate is to find voices on their side, such as Clinton's or Daschle's from years back, as cited above, saying what your side says now. They can't argue with that.

A rational case CAN STILL be made against our intervention in Iraq but by and large the peaceniks don't make it. You probably won't hear two truths in a row from your opponent. So relax, you really can't lose the debate if you are in control.
13 posted on 08/11/2003 2:58:43 PM PDT by ChemistCat (It's National I'm Being Discriminated Against By Someone Day.)
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To: armymarinemom; Kathy in Alaska; MoJo2001; LindaSOG; LaDivaLoca; bentfeather; Bethbg79; ...
"I need help fast. I have agreed to debate a spokesman for the group Bring them Home Now for CNN tomorrow."

URGENT PING for armymarinemom,
mother of 2 sons serving our country.

Please post your replies to armymarinemom
14 posted on 08/11/2003 3:05:39 PM PDT by 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub (THANK YOU TROOPS!)
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To: armymarinemom
I don't know if this will help, but if you can pull up pics of Saddam's victims, mass graves being unearthed, jubilant Iraquis, and testimony of Saddam's victims, you could do a slide show, or do an "overhead projector" style presentation.

The message could be something on the lines of, "God has blessed our country. We have the capability to help people. When devastation hits a country, we're there to help, whether it is an earthquake, floods, or other disasters. Besides the terrorist threat, lies millions of oppressed, frightened, empoverished human beings. God has given us the tools to fight oppression, we are duty bound to use them.

I don't know. Maybe you can find some kind of idea. Good luck!!!! Please let us know how it went :)
15 posted on 08/11/2003 3:09:57 PM PDT by TheSpottedOwl (I need a new tag line)
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To: armymarinemom
What is the name of the spokesman you will be debating? I am willing to search the net for information on this person so that you are well-armed. Please give me his name if you have it!
16 posted on 08/11/2003 3:10:39 PM PDT by Miss Marple
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To: armymarinemom

You have mail.
17 posted on 08/11/2003 3:11:41 PM PDT by Bradís Gramma (fREE rEPUBLIC iS nOT aDDICTIVE, fREE rEPUBLIC iS nOT aDDICTIVE, fREE rEPUBLIC iS nOT aDDICTIVE, fREE)
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To: armymarinemom
From the linked site:

The truth is coming out. The American public was deceived by the Bush administration about the motivation for and intent of the invasion of Iraq...

The lies are coming out. One of the things that annoys me the most, is that they will never acknowledge the truth. The libs/dems are so very lost, and the mainstream media liberal press is nothing more than a getaway driver for the subversives who would undermine our Nation, culture, and way of life.

18 posted on 08/11/2003 3:13:35 PM PDT by Radix
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To: Diogenesis; yall
Email us your letters and photographs. Or, contact us through regular mail at:
Bring Them Home Now
P.O. Box 91233
Raleigh, NC 27675

Well now......from the above link. I'd say we all need to start looking up some of the GREAT pics posted by Dio and start SENDING THEM. They do, after all, request our input.

19 posted on 08/11/2003 3:14:00 PM PDT by Bradís Gramma (fREE rEPUBLIC iS nOT aDDICTIVE, fREE rEPUBLIC iS nOT aDDICTIVE, fREE rEPUBLIC iS nOT aDDICTIVE, fREE)
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To: armymarinemom
Mom, I got this PING'ed to me. It ought to give you some firepower.

Good Hunting!

20 posted on 08/11/2003 3:16:32 PM PDT by Old Sarge (Serving You... on Operation Noble Eagle!)
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To: armymarinemom
Get over to this thread and read up! Great stuff in here!

And, T H E A R S E N A L

21 posted on 08/11/2003 3:21:09 PM PDT by RandallFlagg ("There are worse things than crucifixion...There are teeth.")
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To: armymarinemom
One other thing:

Remember three things when you go into this debate...

1. They're opposed to Iraqi liberation and support Saddam simply because they have a seething, burning hatred for President Bush ever since Gore lost Florida 2000.

2. They're willing to kill American soldiers by disenheartening them on the battlefield, simply to make Bush look bad.

3. Request another interview in October --When all is really revealed about Iraq's WMDs. Demand it.

22 posted on 08/11/2003 3:31:02 PM PDT by RandallFlagg ("There are worse things than crucifixion...There are teeth.")
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To: armymarinemom
I already posted on the other thread you were on, but I guessed it'd be more convenient to post it here (this time without all the typos and such, *sigh*).

The guy you're going to be debating, Stan Goff, is an ex-Green Beret, but I think some of what he says needs to be taken with a grain a salt. Goff wrote an article a month after 9-11 in which he stated that he didn't believe the attacks were linked to Afghanistan.

"One, there is the premise that what this de facto administration is doing now is a "response" to September 11th. Two, there is the premise that this attack on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon was done by people based in Afghanistan. In my opinion, neither of these is sound." - Goff

Goff is also a defender of that (former) Serbian dictator Slobodan Milosevic. He is a member of the
International Committee to Defend Slobodan Milosevic. (ICDSM). Article here:

This guy was a SpecOps soldier for 26 some odd years. It's strange that it took that many years of killing and doing the government's bidding to become disillusioned and develop a conscience...
23 posted on 08/11/2003 3:33:57 PM PDT by Ex-Dem (Sic Semper Tyrannis)
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To: armymarinemom
Dear mom,

I will pray for you. Claim your space, think before you speak. You are getting great input here use it well.

Remember this one thing: The Calmest Place Is in the Eye of the Hurricane.


24 posted on 08/11/2003 3:35:22 PM PDT by Soaring Feather (You are going to be fantastic!!)
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To: RandallFlagg; armymarinemom
you've got lots here to go on!

bump to the top!
25 posted on 08/11/2003 3:35:47 PM PDT by glock rocks ( a waist is a terrible thing to mind)
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To: armymarinemom
Their spokesman is prior special forces who has a son in Iraq....

See if you can document both of these claims. A son in Iraq serving? You just never know.

26 posted on 08/11/2003 3:39:40 PM PDT by Cagey
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To: armymarinemom
The threat of allowing a fundamentalist government similar to Iran taking control in Iraq is too big of a risk. They can quickly make an alliance with Iran and Syria..and end up being a far bigger threat than Saddam ever was. We started we must finish. Would he have called for US troops to withdraw from Germany while Nazi elements were still around, hoping to sieze back power?
27 posted on 08/11/2003 3:40:12 PM PDT by Capitalism2003
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To: armymarinemom
You should seriously read some excerpts from THIS LETTER on the air.
28 posted on 08/11/2003 3:41:49 PM PDT by Capitalism2003
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To: armymarinemom
Best of Luck! We are right behind you!!

29 posted on 08/11/2003 4:00:57 PM PDT by prairiebreeze (Middle East terrorists to the world: " We don't want no STINKING PEACE!!")
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To: prairiebreeze
Give this lady more intellectual ammo!

30 posted on 08/11/2003 4:19:07 PM PDT by Capitalism2003
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To: armymarinemom
One more voice who's loved one says,
"Do not pull us out of here until the JOB IS DONE!
We DO NOT want to do this AGAIN!"

Amen from me!!!

Good Luck... TIME?? DATE??? TIME??? DATE???
31 posted on 08/11/2003 4:30:08 PM PDT by M0sby (Proud Marine Corp's Wife!)
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Comment #32 Removed by Moderator

To: Chad Fairbanks
Hey Chad - you're a vet, and a young man - any advice for this brave woman?
33 posted on 08/11/2003 5:07:29 PM PDT by DaughterOfAnIwoJimaVet (I call him "Mel". He calls me "Security".)
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To: DaughterOfAnIwoJimaVet; armymarinemom
I would have to say that I would ask the dirty smelly hippies why they always go on about "making the world a better place", but when it comes to actually doing something about it, and the soldiers and sailors and airmen and marines are actually out there "making the world a better place", the hippies always want to undermine them?

But then, I can't stand peacenicks, so I'm kind of a jerk ;0)
34 posted on 08/11/2003 5:20:15 PM PDT by Chad Fairbanks (The wages of sin are death, but by the time FICA and SSI are taken, it's just sorta tired feeling)
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To: armymarinemom
Good luck mom, you are speaking for a lot of looks by this thread that you have plenty of thing you might mention is the harm they are doing to the troops by encouraging the enemy.
35 posted on 08/11/2003 5:46:34 PM PDT by mystery-ak (The War is not over for me until my hubby's boots hit U.S. soil.)
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To: armymarinemom
My prayers and all the best to you, armymarinemom. Makes me wonder what happened to the ex-Green Beret to make him take the different side now.
36 posted on 08/11/2003 6:16:09 PM PDT by LaDivaLoca (WE LOVE OUR TROOPS!!! GOD BLESS YOU ALL AND STAY SAFE.)
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To: armymarinemom; Ragtime Cowgirl

RC- Can you help this military mom?
37 posted on 08/11/2003 6:31:17 PM PDT by eyespysomething (You've a loose screw. Can I tighten that for you?)
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To: armymarinemom
Ask them why they are affiliated with known communists and socialists:

They link with, which is affiliated with communists and socialists:

Central Indiana Club, Communist Party USA
Communist Party of Maryland
Communist Party USA
Democratic Socialism Club, Bethel
Democratic Socialists of America
Democratic Socialists of America, Chicago chapt
House of The Goddess Center for Pagan Wombyn
Illinois Socialist Party
International Socialist Organization
Iraq Pledge of Resistance
New York State Communist Party
Socialist Action
Socialist Alternative
Socialist Party of Ohio-Affiliate of Socialist Par
Socialist Party USA
Workers Party (Communists)
Young Communist League, USA

Are these people really looking out for America?

They also link with, International Answer, etc. Every one of their links, sheesh, it goes so deep - these people aren't looking out for our soldiers and America. They are looking to advance their cause - socialism, communism, blah blah-ism.

Ask them why they are tied in with all the communist and socialist parties.

Vietnam Veterans of America Foundation
Bobby Muller, President
" (Bobby) Muller experienced firsthand the problems of neglect, frustration and inadequate care being given to wounded veterans in the US. He decided to fight for fair and just treatment for all veterans by joining the anti-war movement, "

Why not fight for better treatment of veterans?

The Vietnam Veterans of America:
Their goal? "Never again shall one generation of veterans abandon another."

Do they not realize what they are doing is the same which was done to them?

Gosh, all these groups. Good luck tomorrow! I'll say a prayer for you.

38 posted on 08/11/2003 7:19:36 PM PDT by eyespysomething (You've a loose screw. Can I tighten that for you?)
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To: armymarinemom
Thanks everyone. My phone has been ringing non-stop from the good people in town. Wonderful links and advice.You guys are the greatest!!!!!
39 posted on 08/11/2003 7:23:41 PM PDT by armymarinemom
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To: armymarinemom
Can't offer anything but prayers......for your peace of mind and clarity of thought.
40 posted on 08/11/2003 7:43:50 PM PDT by hoosiermama (.Prayers for all)
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To: armymarinemom
First, don't argue over terms; once you do, the debate is over.

Armed combat is a duty once accepted that cannot be put down without shame; for to abandon one's post is to abandon one's principles.

All those caught up in the battle who are not there willingly will not come home whole no matter the outcome.

Your screenname renders you vulnerable; it describes you beyond the obvious; you may want to reconsider this.

41 posted on 08/11/2003 8:15:19 PM PDT by Old Professer
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To: armymarinemom
You go, armymarinemom! The troops get CNN. (^: You have the facts on your side. The spin can not hold up to the very real progress of the troops - to topple a brutal regime and make major progress stabilizing the country in less than 5 months!

Here's the 100 day recap from the WH: loaded with talking points if you're interested:

>>> Results in Iraq: 100 Days Toward Security and Freedom- White House

Some basics the critics cannot deny:

During our most dangerous month - July - we lost 39 troops, 11 to non-hostile acts:
across a country the size of California,
with 150,000 troops on the ground
and over 24 million newly freed Iraqis,
during a month of major aggressive operations to take out some of the nastiest lowlifes - rapists, torturers, terrorists - Saddam loyalists - in history,
and after the death of the two Hussein scum - revenge of the Ba'athists (lowlifes toss a grenade at a children's hospital)
...we lost 28 to hostile acts in our most dangerous month post major operations.

Here's just one of the security reports CENTCOM released during July - what we did to the other guy (multiply it by 20 and then think about the 149,961 troops who did this work during this month to avenge the 39 lost):

July 18, 2003
Release Number: 03-07-56


BAGHDAD, Iraq – Operation Soda Mountain ended on July 17 with Coalition forces successfully achieving the objectives of neutralizing subversive individuals and removing potential enemy weapons from Iraq.

Coalition forces conducted 141 raids resulting in 611 individuals detained, including 62 former regime leaders. Additionally, Coalition forces captured 4,297 mortar rounds, 1,346 rocket-propelled grenades and 635 weapons as well as various other weapons.

Operation Soda Mountain, which followed Operations Peninsula Strike, Desert Scorpion and Sidewinder, continued the common purpose to deter, disrupt or defeat enemy attacks. Additionally, the operation served to identify and fund additional stability projects designed to provide or enhance long-term stability throughout Iraq.

In other activity, the 101st Airborne Division (Air Assault) continued training and equipping Iraqi security forces, the Iraqi police force, New Iraqi Army personnel, Iraqi Border Guards, Facility Protection Services, Joint Integrated Security Company and the New Iraqi Security Forces, in order to transition responsibilities for a safe and secure environment to an Iraqi force.

The 1st Armored Division continued to support the payments to former members of the Iraqi Army by providing security. To date, more than 9,000 former soldiers have been paid.

Elsewhere, Coalition forces continued aggressive patrols throughout the country over the last 24 hours conducting 25 raids, 1,128-day patrols and 938-night patrols. They also
jointly patrolled with the Iraqi Police conducting 131-day patrols and 151-night patrols. Independently, the Iraqi Police conducted nine-day patrols.

The total raids and patrols resulted in 270 arrests for various criminal activities including one for murder, one for kidnapping, five for car jacking, 10 for aggravated assault, eight for burglary and seven for looting.

For further inforamation contact CJTF-7 Public Affairs at: 914 360 5082/5089.

The left is lying through their pointy teeth every time they claim quagmire.

My favorite defense - and they have NO comeback - download the CENTCOM humanitarian and security logs, there are over 100 - pick a dozen - pick a day - and read what the troops accomplished on just one day. Ask why the press didn't bother going to the primary news source on Iraq - CENTCOM. They have no excuse. What the world believes about the war is based on four and a half months of 24/7 negativity and selective reporting.

You could, if you had a mind to, make the case that the left - the press reporting on Iraq is the biggest scandal of all.

CENTCOM: daily good works and security successes of the troops:

He'll probably read quotes ..letters from the Guardian, you know the MO.
A few more first hand accounts:
8 The Real Situation in Iraq 
8 The Straight Scoop - A Seabee's First Hand Account of Life in Iraq 
The White House updated the quotes culled from major papers. The left is cynical about these, but they are very real - and the American people never hear about how grateful the Iraqi people are:
Quotes from the grateful Iraqi people. Y
One more undeniable truth: when our troops 'marched' into Iraq, Saddam and pals had filled schools, hospitals, warehouses, homes across Iraq with cases of RPGs, grenades, ammo, guns, missiles - booby trapping buildings in use by civilians in the middle of neighborhoods - where one stray missile (or bad guy with a flaregun) could take out a city block and thousands of civilians, AND Saddam made sure these weapons were within easy reach of even the children. The VAST majority of Iraqi people CHOSE not to fight - indeed welcomed us.
The LOW number of casualties and the FEW attacks in a nation this size post- decades of SADDAM proves OUR case.
There were NO mass casualties, humanitarian crises...on and on...NONE. Just steady progress in a longsuffering land.
Good luck. You will do great!
Then tell the loser that we have access to the troops and the primary news sources now through the internet, bloggers from Iraq, e-mail home.

You will do fine! Thank you!

42 posted on 08/11/2003 8:57:16 PM PDT by Ragtime Cowgirl (4 years? Dems can't even handle 4 short months of good works and security successes in Iraq.)
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To: Ragtime Cowgirl
Wonderful comments! And not spoken often enough on our mass media.

When people say this was a pre-emptive war, I answer it was a continuation of the Gulf War. The continuous patrol of the no-fly zones was necessary because Saddam would not abide by the cease-fire stipulations of 1991.

When people say that there are no WMD, I ask them what exactly did the Clinton-ordered bombing target in 1998 ?
43 posted on 08/12/2003 3:04:33 AM PDT by maica (Land of the Free, because of the Brave.)
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To: armymarinemom
Protect Our Constitutional Rights, U.N. not U.S.!

By: Matthew B. Rogers

Recently we have seen a peace movement rallying in the streets opposed to the Military Power of our United States. They were supported by socialist ideologies and didn’t succeed in gathering much support for the peoples’ natural enemy. They waved signs with exaggerated claims and false accusations about war mongering American Soldiers. The main stream media attempted to promote their cause with weighted coverage of the peace movement and false claims about the lack of progress in the military campaign. After all their efforts, the People of the United States remained dedicated to the cause of finally ending the Iraq Conflict.

Many Americans do not believe the children of our enemies can be a threat and want us to embrace that which would stab us in the back. They are confused about their own identity, as was witnessed when one young man was protesting with a sign demanding we “Protect our Constitutional Rights” along side a young lady waving the claim “U.N. not U.S.”

The “Bill of Rights” vs. the U.N.’s “Universal Declaration of Human Rights” it’s not much of a contest and it may be redundant, but there are still those without a clue, including some in the news media.

Article 29 section 3 of the U.N. declaration states, “These rights and freedoms may in no case be exercised contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.”

The Bill of Rights, 9th amendment excludes the government from claiming such sweeping powers proclaimed in the U.N. Declaration. The amendment states “The enumeration in the Constitution of certain rights shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.”

The Bill of Rights limits government and assures it will not be used contrary to the will of the people. The U.N. Declaration claims all rights onto itself, any the people would assume, “may in no case be exercised contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.”

Standing in defense of a natural enemy of United States, is not going to endear the People to a cause, as explained by John Lennon “If you go carrying pictures of Chairman Mao, you’re not going to make it with anyone anyhow”.

Whenever our Nation uses military force there are legitimate Constitutional discussions on whether that force is necessary, during the recent Iraq conflict the debate was almost ignored. The only voices we heard mention any of the Constitutional arguments were those with socialist ideologies mocking us. They used the ridicule and humiliation of reminding us that we can’t live by our own rules, to serve them by dividing the People.

The media ignored legitimate constitutional debates from left and right which respected the constitutional principles of liberty and freedom. They allowed the issues to be hijacked and ridiculed by an ideology that had no place in the founding of the United States and gave unbalanced coverage of a peace movement in identity crisis between U.S. and U.N. citizenry.

Congressmen from both parties are afraid to make decisions as when to issue Declarations of War. They pass legislation with vague language sending the responsibility from the Legislature to the President and then if things go badly for the United States they have a buffer zone of deniability in place. They believe they are immune from blame because they slyly shirked their responsibility and the American People are too stupid to recognize their cowardly acts and make them accountable to their constitutional obligations. With buffer zone in place the politicians feel free to criticize and confuse the issues of war in order to divide the voters, securing perpetual two party rule, that further entangles the Nation in calamities of foreign policy, with each passing administration.

Though they would never allow the Powers of the People to be validated in their own societies, when our Congress ignores their responsibilities, socialist movements use that as fuel to attack our Nations credibility, divide the people and recruit for their cause. We have been stupid enough to allow ourselves to be exploited by the Republicans and Democrats over the years, it should come as no surprise our children are vulnerable to exploitation by socialism.

History has proven, the stupidity of the parents is compounded by the ignorance of the children. Every passing generation of Americans allows more Liberties and Freedoms to be infringed upon as the United States moves closer to becoming the Socialist States of America.

“Protect Our Constitutional Rights, U.N. not U.S.!” ?

“None Dare Call it Education”

44 posted on 08/12/2003 4:29:06 AM PDT by Fearless Flyers (Proud to be of The Brave and the Free,
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To: armymarinemom; Ragtime Cowgirl
The One-A-Day Vitamin for the Anti-American Agenda

By: Matthew B. Rogers

A lot of fuss has been made about media bias in our Nations newsrooms. The elites that bring us our managed news are quick to deny the accusations and the more the complaints roll in the more vigorously the accusations are denied.

It is an unfortunate fact that Americans continue to be attacked daily in Iraq and no American should be happy that the brave defenders of our freedoms are facing fatalities at an average of one soldier a day. But there exists another fact that should be of even greater concern.

Where is the score card? We have sent our young men into a war zone and our media is more interested in reporting and uncovering perceived failures of their actions than reporting on our Troops successes.

It is impossible to compare the actions of past military campaigns with the more recent wars of today and not recognize that never have we been so lucky with our fatality rates. Not only are we not experiencing the catastrophic loss of military personal, which was predicted by the media during the build up to the campaign, but we are also succeeding in fighting a humane war that allows the enemy to avoid facing their own catastrophic losses. The public is not aware of this fact, because no one in the media is keeping a score card.

We see reports everyday about the decreasing moral of the soldiers in the field and the public is asked to have sympathy for their situation. America’s journalists want us to believe this is new and our foot soldiers have never been known to complain in past conflicts. Unfortunately the news media is doing nothing to try to correct the problem and are denying our military personal the glory of celebrating their successes, because they do not care to report their accomplishments. If you study all the news reports of the day, you would begin to think our soldiers are ignoramuses who stand out in the open like sitting ducks without any regard for their own safety.

Where is the outrage, that our own news media is constantly celebrating the victories of our enemies in killing American soldiers at an average of one a day? They refuse to allow the American Public the knowledge that would give us reason to celebrate the soldier’s achievements and build up military moral. Have we become so limp and bent over that we allow journalists to blatantly supply comfort to our enemies, from right here on our home soil?

It is no longer a matter of media bias it has become a matter of anti-American Journalists. We are being kicked in the ass by treasonous bastards who have no respect for the great achievements of our own brave Patriots and would rather help build up the moral of our enemies. Can even the stupidest among us, believe our troops are sitting on their thumbs and not making any effort to create a safer Iraq, by capturing the hold outs and killing them when necessary? Does anyone believe that our military is not working to achieve their mission so they can all come home? These are the messages our news media seems to be trying to get across to the American public.

I’m not trying to make a claim that our military forces are infallible, but they are no where near the incompetence level they are made out to be in news. The failure of the journalists to report all the facts and not just negative details, they diligently work twenty four hours a day to uncover, is incompetent and breaks every rule of journalism. Even if it was their job to only report the negative, they are missing the most negative story of the war, which is their own anti-Americanism.

What purpose is not reporting all the facts serving? It doesn’t create a well informed public it doesn’t serve to boost the moral of our troops and it doesn’t help to unite the people during a time of war. The only purposes it does serve is to divide the people, weaken the moral of our troops and give our enemy hope that Americas resolve is faltering and we will soon run home crying. These facts point to only one conclusion and that is that our journalists are a bunch of incompetent treasonous bastards, who exploit the death of our patriotic military personal, to feed their desire to see our Nation fail. The average loss of one soldier a day in Iraq has become the one-a-day vitamin, for the anti-American Agenda.

The time will come to call accounts, on the actions that brought us to finish the war in Iraq. We as a Constitutional Republic should not be able to go to war with a divided Congress. Our Constitution has specific safe guards in place to prevent this. Our greatest strength is our unity. They had a chance to pass a concise plainly worded bill, in a style of our Constitution everyone could understand, declaring war on Iraq, instead they passed some vague language more resembling one of my sorted works, but still giving the President authority to use military force. Leaving more questions than answers but assuring the politicians would have something to pry the people apart with in the future.


Dear Armymarinemom,

The best source for the information you need is provided by Ragtime Cowgirl. She is keeping a score card.

Don't tell her I've been stalking her posts we wouldn't want to alarm her.

Sincerely Matthew

45 posted on 08/12/2003 4:40:14 AM PDT by Fearless Flyers (Proud to be of The Brave and the Free,
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To: Yehuda

Better question, why informed Americans don't already KNOW that the President and his Generals put our troops first and gave this order from the get go: link, or here, and from troops with e-mail access all across the ground in Iraq.

46 posted on 08/12/2003 7:02:58 AM PDT by Ragtime Cowgirl (4 years? Dems can't even handle 4 short months of good works and security successes in Iraq.)
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To: Fearless Flyers
Lol! Dear Matthew, you take my simple facts and produce beautiful, professional, persuasive articles.

Thank you!

Would you consider posting each as a separate thread? They are worthy. The troops can use all the help we can give them getting the word out to the American people.

47 posted on 08/12/2003 7:21:00 AM PDT by Ragtime Cowgirl (4 years? Dems can't even handle 4 short months of good works and security successes in Iraq.)
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To: sauropod
printout ping
48 posted on 08/12/2003 10:12:10 AM PDT by sauropod (Graduate: Burt Gummer's Survival School)
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To: armymarinemom
History repeating it self - more than likely the same people that wanted us out of the Gulf War too early so due to popular demand, America cut and ran. Our military has a job to do and they want to stay there and do it! This is Bureaucratic boon-doggling getting in the way of any success to get the job done right. Letters from the GI's are telling a very different story - they tell the truth and the media and these people are spinning the truth with little or no facts. They look for a few whiners and tell that story. Don't let them get away with it. Stand your ground - America made a promise to the Iraqis and that was we would stay until the JOB was done. Good luck!
49 posted on 08/12/2003 10:50:17 AM PDT by yoe (Our best reporters are on the front lines in Iraq. Get their stories. use FR for truth in reporting.)
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