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Help with Debate ^ | 8/11/2003 | Armymarinemom

Posted on 08/11/2003 2:05:08 PM PDT by armymarinemom

I need help fast. I have agreed to debate a spokesman for the group Bring them Home Now for CNN tomorrow. You can see from the links on their website who these people are associated with. I need input from everyone because to be honest I'm scared to death!
Their spokesman is prior special forces who has a son in Iraq. This smacks a lot like Veterans for Peace.

TOPICS: War on Terror; Your Opinion/Questions
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To: armymarinemom
First, don't argue over terms; once you do, the debate is over.

Armed combat is a duty once accepted that cannot be put down without shame; for to abandon one's post is to abandon one's principles.

All those caught up in the battle who are not there willingly will not come home whole no matter the outcome.

Your screenname renders you vulnerable; it describes you beyond the obvious; you may want to reconsider this.

41 posted on 08/11/2003 8:15:19 PM PDT by Old Professer
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To: armymarinemom
You go, armymarinemom! The troops get CNN. (^: You have the facts on your side. The spin can not hold up to the very real progress of the troops - to topple a brutal regime and make major progress stabilizing the country in less than 5 months!

Here's the 100 day recap from the WH: loaded with talking points if you're interested:

>>> Results in Iraq: 100 Days Toward Security and Freedom- White House

Some basics the critics cannot deny:

During our most dangerous month - July - we lost 39 troops, 11 to non-hostile acts:
across a country the size of California,
with 150,000 troops on the ground
and over 24 million newly freed Iraqis,
during a month of major aggressive operations to take out some of the nastiest lowlifes - rapists, torturers, terrorists - Saddam loyalists - in history,
and after the death of the two Hussein scum - revenge of the Ba'athists (lowlifes toss a grenade at a children's hospital)
...we lost 28 to hostile acts in our most dangerous month post major operations.

Here's just one of the security reports CENTCOM released during July - what we did to the other guy (multiply it by 20 and then think about the 149,961 troops who did this work during this month to avenge the 39 lost):

July 18, 2003
Release Number: 03-07-56


BAGHDAD, Iraq – Operation Soda Mountain ended on July 17 with Coalition forces successfully achieving the objectives of neutralizing subversive individuals and removing potential enemy weapons from Iraq.

Coalition forces conducted 141 raids resulting in 611 individuals detained, including 62 former regime leaders. Additionally, Coalition forces captured 4,297 mortar rounds, 1,346 rocket-propelled grenades and 635 weapons as well as various other weapons.

Operation Soda Mountain, which followed Operations Peninsula Strike, Desert Scorpion and Sidewinder, continued the common purpose to deter, disrupt or defeat enemy attacks. Additionally, the operation served to identify and fund additional stability projects designed to provide or enhance long-term stability throughout Iraq.

In other activity, the 101st Airborne Division (Air Assault) continued training and equipping Iraqi security forces, the Iraqi police force, New Iraqi Army personnel, Iraqi Border Guards, Facility Protection Services, Joint Integrated Security Company and the New Iraqi Security Forces, in order to transition responsibilities for a safe and secure environment to an Iraqi force.

The 1st Armored Division continued to support the payments to former members of the Iraqi Army by providing security. To date, more than 9,000 former soldiers have been paid.

Elsewhere, Coalition forces continued aggressive patrols throughout the country over the last 24 hours conducting 25 raids, 1,128-day patrols and 938-night patrols. They also
jointly patrolled with the Iraqi Police conducting 131-day patrols and 151-night patrols. Independently, the Iraqi Police conducted nine-day patrols.

The total raids and patrols resulted in 270 arrests for various criminal activities including one for murder, one for kidnapping, five for car jacking, 10 for aggravated assault, eight for burglary and seven for looting.

For further inforamation contact CJTF-7 Public Affairs at: 914 360 5082/5089.

The left is lying through their pointy teeth every time they claim quagmire.

My favorite defense - and they have NO comeback - download the CENTCOM humanitarian and security logs, there are over 100 - pick a dozen - pick a day - and read what the troops accomplished on just one day. Ask why the press didn't bother going to the primary news source on Iraq - CENTCOM. They have no excuse. What the world believes about the war is based on four and a half months of 24/7 negativity and selective reporting.

You could, if you had a mind to, make the case that the left - the press reporting on Iraq is the biggest scandal of all.

CENTCOM: daily good works and security successes of the troops:

He'll probably read quotes ..letters from the Guardian, you know the MO.
A few more first hand accounts:
8 The Real Situation in Iraq 
8 The Straight Scoop - A Seabee's First Hand Account of Life in Iraq 
The White House updated the quotes culled from major papers. The left is cynical about these, but they are very real - and the American people never hear about how grateful the Iraqi people are:
Quotes from the grateful Iraqi people. Y
One more undeniable truth: when our troops 'marched' into Iraq, Saddam and pals had filled schools, hospitals, warehouses, homes across Iraq with cases of RPGs, grenades, ammo, guns, missiles - booby trapping buildings in use by civilians in the middle of neighborhoods - where one stray missile (or bad guy with a flaregun) could take out a city block and thousands of civilians, AND Saddam made sure these weapons were within easy reach of even the children. The VAST majority of Iraqi people CHOSE not to fight - indeed welcomed us.
The LOW number of casualties and the FEW attacks in a nation this size post- decades of SADDAM proves OUR case.
There were NO mass casualties, humanitarian crises...on and on...NONE. Just steady progress in a longsuffering land.
Good luck. You will do great!
Then tell the loser that we have access to the troops and the primary news sources now through the internet, bloggers from Iraq, e-mail home.

You will do fine! Thank you!

42 posted on 08/11/2003 8:57:16 PM PDT by Ragtime Cowgirl (4 years? Dems can't even handle 4 short months of good works and security successes in Iraq.)
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To: Ragtime Cowgirl
Wonderful comments! And not spoken often enough on our mass media.

When people say this was a pre-emptive war, I answer it was a continuation of the Gulf War. The continuous patrol of the no-fly zones was necessary because Saddam would not abide by the cease-fire stipulations of 1991.

When people say that there are no WMD, I ask them what exactly did the Clinton-ordered bombing target in 1998 ?
43 posted on 08/12/2003 3:04:33 AM PDT by maica (Land of the Free, because of the Brave.)
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To: armymarinemom
Protect Our Constitutional Rights, U.N. not U.S.!

By: Matthew B. Rogers

Recently we have seen a peace movement rallying in the streets opposed to the Military Power of our United States. They were supported by socialist ideologies and didn’t succeed in gathering much support for the peoples’ natural enemy. They waved signs with exaggerated claims and false accusations about war mongering American Soldiers. The main stream media attempted to promote their cause with weighted coverage of the peace movement and false claims about the lack of progress in the military campaign. After all their efforts, the People of the United States remained dedicated to the cause of finally ending the Iraq Conflict.

Many Americans do not believe the children of our enemies can be a threat and want us to embrace that which would stab us in the back. They are confused about their own identity, as was witnessed when one young man was protesting with a sign demanding we “Protect our Constitutional Rights” along side a young lady waving the claim “U.N. not U.S.”

The “Bill of Rights” vs. the U.N.’s “Universal Declaration of Human Rights” it’s not much of a contest and it may be redundant, but there are still those without a clue, including some in the news media.

Article 29 section 3 of the U.N. declaration states, “These rights and freedoms may in no case be exercised contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.”

The Bill of Rights, 9th amendment excludes the government from claiming such sweeping powers proclaimed in the U.N. Declaration. The amendment states “The enumeration in the Constitution of certain rights shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.”

The Bill of Rights limits government and assures it will not be used contrary to the will of the people. The U.N. Declaration claims all rights onto itself, any the people would assume, “may in no case be exercised contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.”

Standing in defense of a natural enemy of United States, is not going to endear the People to a cause, as explained by John Lennon “If you go carrying pictures of Chairman Mao, you’re not going to make it with anyone anyhow”.

Whenever our Nation uses military force there are legitimate Constitutional discussions on whether that force is necessary, during the recent Iraq conflict the debate was almost ignored. The only voices we heard mention any of the Constitutional arguments were those with socialist ideologies mocking us. They used the ridicule and humiliation of reminding us that we can’t live by our own rules, to serve them by dividing the People.

The media ignored legitimate constitutional debates from left and right which respected the constitutional principles of liberty and freedom. They allowed the issues to be hijacked and ridiculed by an ideology that had no place in the founding of the United States and gave unbalanced coverage of a peace movement in identity crisis between U.S. and U.N. citizenry.

Congressmen from both parties are afraid to make decisions as when to issue Declarations of War. They pass legislation with vague language sending the responsibility from the Legislature to the President and then if things go badly for the United States they have a buffer zone of deniability in place. They believe they are immune from blame because they slyly shirked their responsibility and the American People are too stupid to recognize their cowardly acts and make them accountable to their constitutional obligations. With buffer zone in place the politicians feel free to criticize and confuse the issues of war in order to divide the voters, securing perpetual two party rule, that further entangles the Nation in calamities of foreign policy, with each passing administration.

Though they would never allow the Powers of the People to be validated in their own societies, when our Congress ignores their responsibilities, socialist movements use that as fuel to attack our Nations credibility, divide the people and recruit for their cause. We have been stupid enough to allow ourselves to be exploited by the Republicans and Democrats over the years, it should come as no surprise our children are vulnerable to exploitation by socialism.

History has proven, the stupidity of the parents is compounded by the ignorance of the children. Every passing generation of Americans allows more Liberties and Freedoms to be infringed upon as the United States moves closer to becoming the Socialist States of America.

“Protect Our Constitutional Rights, U.N. not U.S.!” ?

“None Dare Call it Education”

44 posted on 08/12/2003 4:29:06 AM PDT by Fearless Flyers (Proud to be of The Brave and the Free,
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To: armymarinemom; Ragtime Cowgirl
The One-A-Day Vitamin for the Anti-American Agenda

By: Matthew B. Rogers

A lot of fuss has been made about media bias in our Nations newsrooms. The elites that bring us our managed news are quick to deny the accusations and the more the complaints roll in the more vigorously the accusations are denied.

It is an unfortunate fact that Americans continue to be attacked daily in Iraq and no American should be happy that the brave defenders of our freedoms are facing fatalities at an average of one soldier a day. But there exists another fact that should be of even greater concern.

Where is the score card? We have sent our young men into a war zone and our media is more interested in reporting and uncovering perceived failures of their actions than reporting on our Troops successes.

It is impossible to compare the actions of past military campaigns with the more recent wars of today and not recognize that never have we been so lucky with our fatality rates. Not only are we not experiencing the catastrophic loss of military personal, which was predicted by the media during the build up to the campaign, but we are also succeeding in fighting a humane war that allows the enemy to avoid facing their own catastrophic losses. The public is not aware of this fact, because no one in the media is keeping a score card.

We see reports everyday about the decreasing moral of the soldiers in the field and the public is asked to have sympathy for their situation. America’s journalists want us to believe this is new and our foot soldiers have never been known to complain in past conflicts. Unfortunately the news media is doing nothing to try to correct the problem and are denying our military personal the glory of celebrating their successes, because they do not care to report their accomplishments. If you study all the news reports of the day, you would begin to think our soldiers are ignoramuses who stand out in the open like sitting ducks without any regard for their own safety.

Where is the outrage, that our own news media is constantly celebrating the victories of our enemies in killing American soldiers at an average of one a day? They refuse to allow the American Public the knowledge that would give us reason to celebrate the soldier’s achievements and build up military moral. Have we become so limp and bent over that we allow journalists to blatantly supply comfort to our enemies, from right here on our home soil?

It is no longer a matter of media bias it has become a matter of anti-American Journalists. We are being kicked in the ass by treasonous bastards who have no respect for the great achievements of our own brave Patriots and would rather help build up the moral of our enemies. Can even the stupidest among us, believe our troops are sitting on their thumbs and not making any effort to create a safer Iraq, by capturing the hold outs and killing them when necessary? Does anyone believe that our military is not working to achieve their mission so they can all come home? These are the messages our news media seems to be trying to get across to the American public.

I’m not trying to make a claim that our military forces are infallible, but they are no where near the incompetence level they are made out to be in news. The failure of the journalists to report all the facts and not just negative details, they diligently work twenty four hours a day to uncover, is incompetent and breaks every rule of journalism. Even if it was their job to only report the negative, they are missing the most negative story of the war, which is their own anti-Americanism.

What purpose is not reporting all the facts serving? It doesn’t create a well informed public it doesn’t serve to boost the moral of our troops and it doesn’t help to unite the people during a time of war. The only purposes it does serve is to divide the people, weaken the moral of our troops and give our enemy hope that Americas resolve is faltering and we will soon run home crying. These facts point to only one conclusion and that is that our journalists are a bunch of incompetent treasonous bastards, who exploit the death of our patriotic military personal, to feed their desire to see our Nation fail. The average loss of one soldier a day in Iraq has become the one-a-day vitamin, for the anti-American Agenda.

The time will come to call accounts, on the actions that brought us to finish the war in Iraq. We as a Constitutional Republic should not be able to go to war with a divided Congress. Our Constitution has specific safe guards in place to prevent this. Our greatest strength is our unity. They had a chance to pass a concise plainly worded bill, in a style of our Constitution everyone could understand, declaring war on Iraq, instead they passed some vague language more resembling one of my sorted works, but still giving the President authority to use military force. Leaving more questions than answers but assuring the politicians would have something to pry the people apart with in the future.


Dear Armymarinemom,

The best source for the information you need is provided by Ragtime Cowgirl. She is keeping a score card.

Don't tell her I've been stalking her posts we wouldn't want to alarm her.

Sincerely Matthew

45 posted on 08/12/2003 4:40:14 AM PDT by Fearless Flyers (Proud to be of The Brave and the Free,
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To: Yehuda

Better question, why informed Americans don't already KNOW that the President and his Generals put our troops first and gave this order from the get go: link, or here, and from troops with e-mail access all across the ground in Iraq.

46 posted on 08/12/2003 7:02:58 AM PDT by Ragtime Cowgirl (4 years? Dems can't even handle 4 short months of good works and security successes in Iraq.)
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To: Fearless Flyers
Lol! Dear Matthew, you take my simple facts and produce beautiful, professional, persuasive articles.

Thank you!

Would you consider posting each as a separate thread? They are worthy. The troops can use all the help we can give them getting the word out to the American people.

47 posted on 08/12/2003 7:21:00 AM PDT by Ragtime Cowgirl (4 years? Dems can't even handle 4 short months of good works and security successes in Iraq.)
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To: sauropod
printout ping
48 posted on 08/12/2003 10:12:10 AM PDT by sauropod (Graduate: Burt Gummer's Survival School)
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To: armymarinemom
History repeating it self - more than likely the same people that wanted us out of the Gulf War too early so due to popular demand, America cut and ran. Our military has a job to do and they want to stay there and do it! This is Bureaucratic boon-doggling getting in the way of any success to get the job done right. Letters from the GI's are telling a very different story - they tell the truth and the media and these people are spinning the truth with little or no facts. They look for a few whiners and tell that story. Don't let them get away with it. Stand your ground - America made a promise to the Iraqis and that was we would stay until the JOB was done. Good luck!
49 posted on 08/12/2003 10:50:17 AM PDT by yoe (Our best reporters are on the front lines in Iraq. Get their stories. use FR for truth in reporting.)
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To: SunStar
Well, if I had to pick one difference between Daschle's comments, it would be that one was before Operation Desert Fox and the other one was after. I personally remember our fine miltary action in 1998, apparently you don't. Regardless of who's orders they were acting on, the miltary did exactly what they were supposed to do -- blow stuff up. Which is why the vast majority of 'it' isn't there any more.

Double jeopardy -- it isn't just for breakfast anymore.
51 posted on 08/12/2003 11:06:45 AM PDT by El Che Vive
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To: Yehuda
My pleasure, Yehuda. You'd be proud of the troops and their leaders if you knew what they've been doing daily for the past 4 months and 3 weeks.

The press coverage of this war is the biggest scandal of my lifetime (~39 yrs, lol).

52 posted on 08/12/2003 11:22:12 AM PDT by Ragtime Cowgirl (4 years? Dems can't even handle 4 short months of good works and security successes in Iraq.)
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To: armymarinemom
So, how did it turn out?
54 posted on 08/14/2003 4:17:13 PM PDT by Bryan
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To: Bryan
The debate was short but went well. Please see the after interview report. After interview CNN report with transcript in responses
55 posted on 08/14/2003 7:11:49 PM PDT by armymarinemom
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