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White without Apology
TooGoodReports ^ | 08/13/03 | Bernard Chapin

Posted on 08/13/2003 6:57:47 AM PDT by bedolido

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To: dwd1
I have been to a Juneteenth dinner actually.

I liked the food....just like grandma's.
101 posted on 08/13/2003 10:16:43 AM PDT by wardaddy
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To: wardaddy
The grand effort at full black emancipation that occured from 1861-1970s was and still is a vast social effort (experiment) that does indeed entail many aspects of at a minimum socialism.

Minimum? I think it's full-blown, just under different names.

You are right.

Thank you, Battle Pop.

102 posted on 08/13/2003 10:24:32 AM PDT by rdb3 (I'm not a complete idiot. Several parts are missing.)
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To: wardaddy
I can not confirm or deny whether I agree with you. I hate sleeping on the couch (or the curb) to much.

You have to admit though, that woman can have a very stabilizing influence in politics also. Depends on the issue... Some take us to the other side of Venus while men are trying to keep it Martian and there are times when we all forget that we are stuck here on Planet Earth...However, I am glad they are here. I don't think my poetry would be half as good (not that it is that good in the first place) without them...

And you have to admit the beauty industry, the recording industry, the clothing manufacturing business, the jewelry business...What would they do? (Open mouth...Insert shoestore)
103 posted on 08/13/2003 10:25:11 AM PDT by dwd1 (M. h. D. (Master of Hate and Discontent))
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To: dwd1
Oh...I love women...too much.

I just don't like the way most vote.

My wife like most FReeperettes is the exception.
104 posted on 08/13/2003 10:32:52 AM PDT by wardaddy
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To: Lazamataz
I'll bet you hang around the Shedd Aquarium tossing bits of raw meat into the Shark Tank don't you?
105 posted on 08/13/2003 10:41:21 AM PDT by justshutupandtakeit (America's Enemies foreign and domestic agree. Bush must be destroyed.)
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To: justshutupandtakeit
I'll bet you hang around the Shedd Aquarium tossing bits of raw meat into the Shark Tank don't you?

Kittens.

I throw mewling, cuddly kittens.

106 posted on 08/13/2003 10:44:12 AM PDT by Lazamataz (PROUDLY POSTING WITHOUT READING THE ARTICLE SINCE 1999!)
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To: ought-six
So, you see that the Emancipation Proclamation really did nothing: it was a fraud, for all intents and purposes. The only states it was supposed to apply to were not affected by it, because they had already seceded and Lincoln had no authority over them. Slavery wasn't abolished until the passage of the 13th Amendment in 1865.

You are simply wrong about that. Between Jan of 1863 when the EP took effect and Dec. of 1865 when the states ratified the 13th Amendment, over 3 million slaves were freed by the EP. Nearly 100,000 of those freed slaves served in the US Army. Look up Juneteenth to see how every slave in Texas were freed by the EP with the arrival of Union troops in Galvaston.

"The people of Texas are informed that in accordance with a Proclamation from the Executive of the United States, all slaves are free. This involves an absolute equality of rights and rights of property between former masters and slaves, and the connection heretofore existing between them becomes that between employer and free laborer."
-- Major General Gorden Granger, USA.
June 19, 1865, Gavalston Texas.

Read about this stuff instead or relying on Marxist propaganda that attempts to paint Lincoln as some sort of demon.
107 posted on 08/13/2003 10:55:26 AM PDT by Ditto ( No trees were killed in sending this message, but billions of electrons were inconvenienced.)
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To: wardaddy
And wardaddy is about to be sacked...But wait..he gets rid of the ball just in time...Touchdown!!!....
108 posted on 08/13/2003 10:56:48 AM PDT by dwd1 (M. h. D. (Master of Hate and Discontent))
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To: Ditto
I am very sure you are right about the Juneteenth... Many younger people in Texas think of it as a chance to eat some BBQ and homemade potato salad, but if one knows the history, it is a day of very special meaning... I think Cinco de Mayo, Bastille Day, Victory in Europe day, and the day the Wall came down in Berlin...same feeling and significance...

109 posted on 08/13/2003 11:01:34 AM PDT by dwd1 (M. h. D. (Master of Hate and Discontent))
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To: dwd1; WhiskeyPapa
It's just that these damn myths (actually left-wing lies) about Lincoln and the EP drive me nuts. The real history is so damn easy to check but millions rely on race-bating Marxist propaganda instead. I even see it repeated here nearly every day which is very sad.

The bottom line is that the EP freed millions.

110 posted on 08/13/2003 11:15:49 AM PDT by Ditto ( No trees were killed in sending this message, but billions of electrons were inconvenienced.)
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To: Ditto
As I have said before, "You can be wrong about your opinion but not your facts." Well stated post.

Thank you....
111 posted on 08/13/2003 11:20:53 AM PDT by dwd1 (M. h. D. (Master of Hate and Discontent))
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To: bedolido; stainlessbanner; 4ConservativeJustices; aomagrat; GOPcapitalist; stand watie
bump
112 posted on 08/13/2003 11:23:18 AM PDT by billbears (Deo Vindice)
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To: wasp69; bedolido
The Emancipation proclaimation was in effect only over the areas in rebellion, because those were the only areas that Lincoln had direct authority to issue against. They were under military law, and he was CIC.

He could not issue the proclaimation in the North. Had he done so, it may have pushed the loyal slave states, such as Missouri, into joining the Confederate states. Emancipation in these places had to be done by Constitutional amendment, which Lincoln pushed for. It did not pass until after his murder by a Southern radical.

In short, President Licoln attempted to free those whom he had no control over and leave those in chains that he did.

Exactly the opposite. To his way of view, he had legal authority to free the slaves in the rebelling territories, but the freeing of slaves in the non-rebellious states was up to the legislatures of those states, or the establishment of a Constitutional provision to do so.

113 posted on 08/13/2003 11:27:03 AM PDT by LexBaird (Views seen in this tag are closer than they appear.)
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To: LexBaird
Sounds like he had good advice when he was pursuing his goal... He did his best to achieve his aim based on the law and he did not try to exceed his legal authority... Always glad we are a nation of laws and not men
114 posted on 08/13/2003 11:36:17 AM PDT by dwd1 (M. h. D. (Master of Hate and Discontent))
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To: Huck
"I hadn't realized Lew Rockwell was actually a black grocery store clerk..."

LOL!!

115 posted on 08/13/2003 11:41:57 AM PDT by headsonpikes
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To: dwd1
Let us all take a breath of reality and realize that we are on our way to becoming an established interest and with the education and opportunity provided to us recently, we have an opportunity to secure our future by joining the conservative movement...

Entire generations (black & white) have become accustomed to the soft, sweet, do-nothing life afforded to them via the socialist support network spawned by FDR and cultivated in the fields of LBJ's "Great Society". These souls will continue to find little incentive to pick themselves up by the bootstraps. Lets face it; its easy to be a victim these days. Pity the person who becomes comfortable with their status as a victim.

Institutional racism continues to exist today; of that I have no doubt. However, its form and presentation is not the same; handouts disguised as hand-ups. Not everyone has a conscience (or a work ethic). The institutional racism prevalent today in its present form panders to that. It becomes all the more insidious by virtue of its disguise . . .

116 posted on 08/13/2003 11:49:45 AM PDT by BraveMan
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To: BraveMan
100% agreement...
117 posted on 08/13/2003 11:59:37 AM PDT by dwd1 (M. h. D. (Master of Hate and Discontent))
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To: LexBaird; dwd1; wasp69; GOPcapitalist
Then why not free the slaves in rebellious states in areas that were under Union control?

On Jan. 1, 1863, U.S. President Abraham Lincoln declared free all slaves residing in territory in rebellion against the federal government. This Emancipation Proclamation actually freed few people. It did not apply to slaves in border states fighting on the Union side; nor did it affect slaves in southern areas already under Union control. Naturally, the states in rebellion did not act on Lincoln's order. But the proclamation did show Americans-- and the world--that the civil war was now being fought to end slavery. Lincoln had been reluctant to come to this position. A believer in white supremacy, he initially viewed the war only in terms of preserving the Union. As pressure for abolition mounted in Congress and the country, however, Lincoln became more sympathetic to the idea. On Sept. 22, 1862, he issued a preliminary proclamation announcing that emancipation would become effective on Jan. 1, 1863, in those states still in rebellion. Although the Emancipation Proclamation did not end slavery in America--this was achieved by the passage of the 13TH Amendment to the Constitution on Dec. 18, 1865--it did make that accomplishment a basic war goal and a virtual certainty.

The above italicized is from a Lincoln admirer and presents some flaws in your argument that Lincoln only acted "constitutionally". Lincoln acted pragmatically, strategically and politically. He freed the slaves when and where he did simply beacuse he wished to, to sate the Radicals, and most importantly to try to damage the infrastructure of the South at which he was at war.

118 posted on 08/13/2003 12:06:57 PM PDT by wardaddy
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To: ought-six
The only states it was supposed to apply to were not affected by it, because they had already seceded and Lincoln had no authority over them.

Authority belongs to the one with the power to make it stick. You can assert anything you please, but if you can't walk the walk, all you've got is talk.

My 7 year old claims I have no authority to send him to bed. I assert I do. We fight it out, and, lo and behold, my kid's secession from my authority is found to be imaginary, and my authority was found to have been valid all along.

So, you see that the Emancipation Proclamation really did nothing: it was a fraud, for all intents and purposes.

So, you see, the secession of the slavocrats did nothing; it was a fraud for all intents and purposes. They proved not to have the ability to impose their authority. Who says war never solves anything?

119 posted on 08/13/2003 12:09:55 PM PDT by LexBaird (Views seen in this tag are closer than they appear.)
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To: ought-six
The Emancipation Proclamation freed almost no one. See my earlier post.

But slaves that chose to free themselves had a place to go closer than Canada or Mexico. And many did.

The EP weakened the rebellion. Your sophistry is moot.

Walt

120 posted on 08/13/2003 12:16:38 PM PDT by WhiskeyPapa (Virtue is the uncontested prize.)
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To: wardaddy
Though I do not believe that some of my employers and clients behave as though this 13th amendment truly exists(or perhaps they believe that it does not apply to computer nerds like myself), I think you make an excellent point. I think that if I can get my clients and employers to better understand the 13th and society, in general to understand the equal protection part of the 14th, we are going to be all right...
121 posted on 08/13/2003 12:17:24 PM PDT by dwd1 (M. h. D. (Master of Hate and Discontent))
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To: bedolido
Very Good Post - I have never quite got the handle on "African American". To me either you're African or American - unless you were born in Rawanda and then became a US citizen. I do believe there is "institutionalized" blacks - they are the 4th and 5th generations who live in City Housing and get Government welfare checks. Never gonna change and they blame whites for it.
122 posted on 08/13/2003 12:32:58 PM PDT by sandydipper (Never quit - never surrender!)
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To: wardaddy
The above italicized is from a Lincoln admirer and presents some flaws in your argument that Lincoln only acted "constitutionally". Lincoln acted pragmatically, strategically and politically.

The idea that the EP was a political, pragmatic move doesn't invalidate that it was done in a legal manner.

Moreover, your source is not a statement of fact, but an analysis by somebody. That analysis is based on the opinions of the author and is not a valid proof.

123 posted on 08/13/2003 12:42:29 PM PDT by LexBaird (Views seen in this tag are closer than they appear.)
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To: sandydipper
The 4th or 5th Generation is not likely because welfare and public assistance have not been around that long but the blame game...Got to give you that one... As I have said before...Do something about the schools...Education is the silver bullet....
124 posted on 08/13/2003 12:47:18 PM PDT by dwd1 (M. h. D. (Master of Hate and Discontent))
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To: dwd1
I'm ambivalent about Lincoln.

Some here loathe him. Some love him.

The war did eventually lead to freeing slaves but that was not in my opinion Lincoln's first reason for waging it. I was taught as a boy (in the South) that he fought to preserve the Union and to keep the Cotton states in and I still believe that.

Unfortunately, in doing so, he led to Federal power which has reached proportions that I don't think anyone ever imagined. Call it the "incorporation of the Union" as much as the fight to preserve it. Granted, some before him were also advocates of Federal expansion over local soverignty.

I do wish he had lived. I As a Southerner think he would have offered better terms and his popularity would have kept the RRs in check to a degree.

The incorporation that has taken place from Washington was inevitable given our expansion and industrialization and concentration of populace in the NE at the time. I think many here simply wish the brakes had been applied at some point and Lincoln takes a bit of heat for that.
125 posted on 08/13/2003 12:53:23 PM PDT by wardaddy
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To: LexBaird
There are reams of proof that Lincoln did not free slaves in Southern areas under Union control.

Why do you suppose that was?

If his motivation was to free slaves in areas where he had Constitutional authority as military CIC then surely why not free the slaves in "rebellious" areas under Union subjugation?

126 posted on 08/13/2003 1:00:20 PM PDT by wardaddy
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To: wardaddy
If you look at Garibaldi, Ghengis Khan, Alexander, Charlemagne, Napoleon, Oliver Cromwell, William the Conqueror, Gorbachev, and Lincoln...You see persons who made decisions that put a nation together and took them apart.... You may question Lincoln's motives and you can easily question his methods but I personally am not unhappy with the end result...

Do you think he belongs on that little display in South (or is it North?) Dakota?
127 posted on 08/13/2003 1:04:39 PM PDT by dwd1 (M. h. D. (Master of Hate and Discontent))
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To: wardaddy
The war did eventually lead to freeing slaves but that was not in my opinion Lincoln's first reason for waging it.

No one who examines the record will have that opinion. Lincoln said over and over and over that it was Union first. He said it plainly before the war; he said it plainly during the war.

But it is also true that the slave power precipitated the war because they knew that slavery was doomed if a man with Lincoln's convictions could get elected.

The loss of their dominance over the federal government dictated the timing of the rebellion.

Walt

128 posted on 08/13/2003 1:06:57 PM PDT by WhiskeyPapa (Virtue is the uncontested prize.)
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To: dwd1
Of course Lincoln deserves a few statues here and there.
129 posted on 08/13/2003 1:15:47 PM PDT by wardaddy
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To: WhiskeyPapa
There was also a need to resolve the question of whether state law or federal law took precedence...As well as whether state interests superceded the national interests....

130 posted on 08/13/2003 1:17:10 PM PDT by dwd1 (M. h. D. (Master of Hate and Discontent))
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To: WhiskeyPapa
Are you personally happy with the continuing Federal incorporation....forget the motives which I know you cherish.

And btw, yes I am aware that the fellow who resided down the road from me at The Hermitage was also pretty big on increasing the scope of Federal power.

What about now? Would you like to see more or less Federal power?
131 posted on 08/13/2003 1:18:16 PM PDT by wardaddy
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To: wardaddy
I have been looking around town....Could you direct me to the Rutherford B. Hayes Monument?...What about the Andrew Johnson Memorial?....
132 posted on 08/13/2003 1:18:57 PM PDT by dwd1 (M. h. D. (Master of Hate and Discontent))
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To: WhiskeyPapa
BTw....don't you usually say the war was fought over slavery?

Bookmarking...
133 posted on 08/13/2003 1:19:47 PM PDT by wardaddy
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To: dwd1
I'd wager there is some sort of monument to Johnson near Greenville TN.

There will also one day be a William Jefferson Clinton monument in Hope....barf.
134 posted on 08/13/2003 1:22:00 PM PDT by wardaddy
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To: wardaddy
Is this about state's right vs federal rights, the question of checks and balances where several checks have bounces, the abuse of power at the federal level (absolute power corrupts, absolutely), or the amount of federal spending we are paying for which makes it so difficult to afford a good steak dinner and a movie?
135 posted on 08/13/2003 1:22:31 PM PDT by dwd1 (M. h. D. (Master of Hate and Discontent))
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To: wardaddy
Some have suggested that the monument to Clinton may appear phallic in nature perhaps suggesting he posseses or is a .....Never mind...
136 posted on 08/13/2003 1:24:14 PM PDT by dwd1 (M. h. D. (Master of Hate and Discontent))
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To: the gillman@blacklagoon.com
As to Institutionalized Racism, there certainly is that. The Supreme Court made it the law of the land with their recent decision.

It just happens to be anti-white.

I think it was Ann Coulter who said Democrats have always been racists. It's just that they changed which race they would demonize.

137 posted on 08/13/2003 1:28:14 PM PDT by HIDEK6
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To: dwd1
Federal Power:

Good: Whipping ass in Wars...

Bad: Social programs for the most part, Roe v Wade, gun control, etc., taxes, land use determination


Property rights define us largely in the end and the Federal Government has an ever decreasing respect for that.

Small wonder the founders only allowed property owning males the vote...uh oh...I stepped in the pantyhose again.
138 posted on 08/13/2003 1:28:30 PM PDT by wardaddy
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To: squidly
Slaves in states that did not secede, Maryland, Kentucky, Delaware, Missouri, were not freed until passage of the 13th Amendment after Lincoln's death.

Not entirely true. Slaves in Missouri and Maryland were freed when those states amended their Constitutions prior to January 1865. Slavery was ended in the District of Columbia during the war, 1862 if memory serves.

139 posted on 08/13/2003 1:29:13 PM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: dwd1
don't forget the Peyronies!
140 posted on 08/13/2003 1:29:37 PM PDT by wardaddy
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To: wardaddy
That land ownership thing has transferred to car ownership...If you can afford to have your fees tripled...Sure, come on in....Driver's license and registration, please....
141 posted on 08/13/2003 1:31:13 PM PDT by dwd1 (M. h. D. (Master of Hate and Discontent))
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To: Non-Sequitur
I hope you are remembering from history class and not from your actually having been there...:-)
142 posted on 08/13/2003 1:33:30 PM PDT by dwd1 (M. h. D. (Master of Hate and Discontent))
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To: wardaddy
ROTF LOL!!!
143 posted on 08/13/2003 1:34:07 PM PDT by dwd1 (M. h. D. (Master of Hate and Discontent))
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To: wardaddy
I think the social programs would have never occured were it not for the Great Depression....

It is why I say as a moderate...We have to give everyone the basics to take their shot at the dream... If they don't step up, their loss...

Bush I and Hoover never learned a very important lesson.... It is the economy....

I hope this guy gets it right...
144 posted on 08/13/2003 1:37:29 PM PDT by dwd1 (M. h. D. (Master of Hate and Discontent))
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To: bedolido
bump fo' later read.
145 posted on 08/13/2003 1:47:31 PM PDT by Jason_b
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To: wardaddy
If his motivation was to free slaves in areas where he had Constitutional authority as military CIC then surely why not free the slaves in "rebellious" areas under Union subjugation?

Where did I claim what Lincoln's motivations were? I merely pointed out what he was legally entitled to do as CIC did not pertain to the Northern states that had slavery, such as Missouri and Maryland.

Why did he issue the EP? To help win the war, of course. So what? It did help, and was a great moral thing to do in its own right. I'm sure that Lincoln's motives were not unalloyed altruism, but to insist that they must be is to make the best the enemy of the good.

The EP was a good thing. It was a righteous thing. That Lincoln did it is the important thing.

146 posted on 08/13/2003 1:54:17 PM PDT by LexBaird (Views seen in this tag are closer than they appear.)
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To: bedolido
By the standards of the nineteenth century, black Americans had no better friend than Abraham Lincoln.

That's a load of garbage if I ever heard one. Lincoln, to his dying day, believed that blacks should be deported back to Africa and to the carribean for and colonization - not exactly the type of thing a "friend" would do.

His anti-slavery politics were also predicated upon the interest of himself and whites, not blacks. As Lincoln stated in his famous Peoria address, he desired to keep slaves out of the territories because he believed that they should be the exclusive domain of white people.

If you want to find a true friend of blacks in the mid 19th century, try Lysander Spooner. Cause beyond him there truly weren't many - even among abolitionist circles.

147 posted on 08/13/2003 1:54:56 PM PDT by GOPcapitalist
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To: dwd1; Non-Sequitur
I'm ambivalent about governmental interference in the economy other than tax cuts/repeals and tarriffs/trade.

Many a nation has jettisoned a successful war leader....Churchill is a great example. I hope we don't repeat that.

After my comment earlier about only property owning males voting I did some research about whether or nor freed blacks could vote anywhere in the US prior to 1865. I was only able to find a lengthy article by Houghton-Mifflin which infers that the mullatto class from Planter/Slave unions in cotton state urban areas could. I could not find any other evidence anywhere else. I was also suprised that there were more freed blacks in the South than North at the time. The White and Slave population were growing faster btw yet freed blacks were 9% of the total US black population and 60% of those resided South and the mullatto class were the best educated...Frederick Douglass notwithstanding. Further, those mullatto classes still form the genesis of many black upper class throughout Southern urban areas....New Orleans and Atlanta in particular.

Maybe NS will know about black voting rights up north in antebellum days and have a link. I was simply curious and had never researched the matter and my comment about property owners voting at the time of our founding made me think about the question.

http://college.hmco.com/history/readerscomp/rcah/html/rc_033600_freenegroes.htm
148 posted on 08/13/2003 1:56:54 PM PDT by wardaddy
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To: bedolido
We lacked an underclass in this country for the marxists to arganize, so they had to create (by destroying the family)and import (illegals) one.
149 posted on 08/13/2003 1:57:07 PM PDT by johnb838 (Liberalizm and homoizm are cults of death - no life can come from them.)
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To: IYAS9YAS
I do know many union shops in the North refused to hire escaped or freed slaves. They were just as racist as the South is portrayed to have been. They just did a better job at hiding it.

Still Are.
150 posted on 08/13/2003 2:00:18 PM PDT by johnb838 (Liberalizm and homoizm are cults of death - no life can come from them.)
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