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White without Apology
TooGoodReports ^ | 08/13/03 | Bernard Chapin

Posted on 08/13/2003 6:57:47 AM PDT by bedolido

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To: Johnbalaya
>>>Geez, I'm learning more about Lincoln here than i ever did in school....

Welcome to FreeRepublic. I expect you will learn a lot about many topics that you never learned in school.
151 posted on 08/13/2003 2:01:09 PM PDT by FreedomPoster (this space intentionally blank)
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To: LexBaird
It was flawed and self serving. That you wish to ascribe glory to that is fine.

Your original logic was one of Constitutional authority (questionable to some) and if so then was not freeing the slaves in Union held areas of the "rebellious" South extraconstitutional.

Was it moral to not free those slaves he could have while to issue a decree freeing those slaves over which he had no control?

The EC has been overhyped. Slavery was ended as a result of the war's conclusion.

No, I don't enjoy sounding like Cornell West...lol
152 posted on 08/13/2003 2:03:43 PM PDT by wardaddy
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To: wardaddy
I can not remember exactly where but when slavery is discussed by those outside of this country, there are those who believe that what made it so unjust was that there was no mechanism for emancipation...Romans and several other societies had processes for obtaining one's freedom... In other words, there was hope...

If you want to get rid of the liberal ca-ca, best way is to let people know that there is a method and opportunity to get their shot at the American Dream...
153 posted on 08/13/2003 2:04:24 PM PDT by dwd1 (M. h. D. (Master of Hate and Discontent))
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To: billbears
Allegedly, Licoln issued the EP as a "war" measure, to deprive the Confederacy of workers, to promote an insurrection and possible slaughter in the South, and maybe thought that the South would believe he legally had the power to do so, and return to the fold.

One major problem. He had no legal authority to do so. The Confederacy had seceded, just as the colonies had seceded from Britain in 1776, and as had 9 of the several states from the Articles of Confederation & Perpetual Union. Even if Lincoln did have some legality to issue the EP as a "war" measure, the Supreme Court had previously ruled that the owners of seized property must be renumerated. Lastly, even the Constitution prevents the taking of property by the federal government, and Lincoln wrote a letter to his law-partner Herndon that his actions were unconstitutional.

154 posted on 08/13/2003 2:06:59 PM PDT by 4CJ (Come along chihuahua, I want to hear you say yo quiero taco bell. - Nolu Chan, 28 Jul 2003)
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To: wardaddy
According to this website as many as 8 Northern states allowed free blacks to vote by 1860. Whether that included national elections as opposed to state and local elections isn't clear. In the companion book to Burns' "Civil War" it says that only four states did - Maine, Vermont, New Hampshire, and Massachusetts.
155 posted on 08/13/2003 2:07:17 PM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: HIDEK6
Good one!
156 posted on 08/13/2003 2:11:01 PM PDT by the gillman@blacklagoon.com (Mean spirited liberals suck!)
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To: GOPcapitalist
Lincoln, to his dying day, believed that blacks should be deported back to Africa and to the carribean for and colonization - not exactly the type of thing a "friend" would do.

Funny you should mention that. Two days before his "dying day" he gave his last public address where he called for voting rights for blacks. A confederate guy in the audience named Booth was so outraged by that thought that he made the "dying day" happen.

As to the Peoria address, why is it that you guys always forget the punchline that called for the end of slavery? Don't they publish that in the Lost Cause talking points?

PS. Show me one instance where Lincoln called for "deportation". He surely supported voluntary colonization as a way to avoid the problem of race relations that we are still facing 150 years later, but he never called for anyone to be "deported." He knew very well that freedom would not automatically bring equality. Was he wrong?

157 posted on 08/13/2003 2:12:12 PM PDT by Ditto ( No trees were killed in sending this message, but billions of electrons were inconvenienced.)
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To: dwd1
Britain compensated slaveowners when they abolished in the 1830s(?). I don't think that ever got much traction over here. Hotheaded Cavaliers versus taciturn and resolute Roundheads more or less....Southerners and Northerners even today often disagree and that crosses color lines too....unless allied against a third party.

...somethings are just gonna happen.
158 posted on 08/13/2003 2:14:13 PM PDT by wardaddy
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To: Non-Sequitur
Thanks...I knew you would know.
159 posted on 08/13/2003 2:14:47 PM PDT by wardaddy
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To: wardaddy
If his motivation was to free slaves in areas where he had Constitutional authority as military CIC then surely why not free the slaves in "rebellious" areas under Union subjugation?

I know I have posted this to -you personally- before.

Lincoln's war power only extended to areas in rebellion. Being military CIC per se didn't give him the power. Slavery was clearly protected in the Constitution. The rebels cluelessly liabled themselves to the president's war power when their iunsurection took the nature of armed revolt that could not be handled by the usual courts and marshalls.

Lincoln vetoed in 1864 the Wade Davis bill --because-- he thought its provision of making slave ownership a federal crime was unconstitutional.

Had you read the Conkling letter I posted earlier today, you'd have seen Lincoln's rationale for issuing the EP. But I suppose you just skipped over it.

Walt

160 posted on 08/13/2003 2:15:27 PM PDT by WhiskeyPapa (Virtue is the uncontested prize.)
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To: 4ConservativeJustices
One major problem. He had no legal authority to do so.

"You dislike the emancipation proclamation; and perhaps, would have it retracted. You say it is unconstitutional--I think differently. I think the Constitution invests the commander in chief with the law of war, in time of war. The most that can be said, if so much, is, that slaves are property. Is there--has there ever been--any question that by the law of war, property, both of enemies and friends, may be taken when needed? And is it not needed whenever taking it helps us, or hurts the enemy?"

The Supreme Court ruled in the Prize Cases that the secessionists had the status of foreign combatants even though they were domestic.

President Lincoln clearly had the power to issue the EP.

Or would you rather it not have been issued?

Your heroes all thought of the slaves as property -- not human at all, right?

Walt

161 posted on 08/13/2003 2:22:00 PM PDT by WhiskeyPapa (Virtue is the uncontested prize.)
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To: wardaddy
Your original logic was one of Constitutional authority (questionable to some) and if so then was not freeing the slaves in Union held areas of the "rebellious" South extraconstitutional.

Sorry, I don't follow you. Could you restate this?

Was it moral to not free those slaves he could have while to issue a decree freeing those slaves over which he had no control?

To free a man from slavery is always a moral good. That Lincoln's EP did not free all men does not mean that it was a bad thing, just that it was not a perfect thing.

It was flawed and self serving. That you wish to ascribe glory to that is fine.

We are humans. Everything we ever achieve is flawed. That doesn't make our achievements worthless. That's making the best the enemy of the good. If only the most pure of motivations are worthy, how are we to progress at all?

162 posted on 08/13/2003 2:25:48 PM PDT by LexBaird (Views seen in this tag are closer than they appear.)
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To: ought-six
Yes, yes, we know all that but Lincoln did put the entire nation at risk to do what was right. And he held to it through the entire hellish experience. Oh how different things would be if Lincoln hadn't been one of Nature's true gentlemen!
163 posted on 08/13/2003 2:26:32 PM PDT by thegreatbeast (Quid lucrum istic mihi est?)
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To: 4ConservativeJustices
The Confederacy had seceded, just as the colonies had seceded from Britain in 1776...

Then secession is an illegal act? Surely the colonists went outside English law in making their rebellion.

Walt

164 posted on 08/13/2003 2:28:44 PM PDT by WhiskeyPapa (Virtue is the uncontested prize.)
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To: wardaddy
http://freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/963531/posts

All excellent points...

Going to lunch...Back in a while...
165 posted on 08/13/2003 2:45:56 PM PDT by dwd1 (M. h. D. (Master of Hate and Discontent))
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To: LexBaird
Does all of Lincoln revolve around slavery for you?

Do you admire him more for defeating the South or freeing the slaves?

Not flaming.
166 posted on 08/13/2003 3:46:45 PM PDT by wardaddy
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To: wardaddy
Do you admire him more for defeating the South or freeing the slaves?

This is an "either/or" question that cannot be answered so simply.

Anti-slavery was a big part of the platform he was elected under, but it was not the whole of the man. He did not ask for the war, but he had the sworn duty, as President, to preserve the Nation. To that end, he bent all his efforts, and with the hindsight of today, I thank the Lord it was preserved. The evils of the 20th century would have crushed a divided America.

I admire him for doing his best to serve his Nation in the job he was elected to do. A lesser man would have broken.

167 posted on 08/13/2003 4:28:27 PM PDT by LexBaird (Views seen in this tag are closer than they appear.)
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To: LexBaird
Chang Kai Shek, Diem, Gorbachev, the Caesar's in Rome, Charles Taylor, the Shah of Iran, Emperor Maximilian, Czar Nicholas II, Kaiser Wilhelm, Santa Ana, Napoleon, the Stuarts in England...History is full of persons who because of internal or external conflicts, lost their nation...Lesser men did fail...
168 posted on 08/13/2003 4:38:31 PM PDT by dwd1 (M. h. D. (Master of Hate and Discontent))
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To: dwd1
Yes, those men failed to hold their nations, but I was talking of something else. Lincoln is the sort of tragic figure of myth that is only rarely seen in life.

Long a supporter of abolition, he ran for President as a member of the idealistic, young Rebublican Party. He was elected due to his more politically popular opponants splitting the vote, only to have half of his Nation rise up in war. He spent his whole time as President with this struggle, enduring untold amounts of personal attacks from within his own side, while dealing with the Southern secession and war.

During this he experienced the loss of a beloved son, a succession of incompetant field commanders early on, enormous pressure from Europe to lift the blockade, and riots in the North. Add the unprecedented carnage that was introduced by a combo of outdated tactics and modern weapons.

Yet, he persevered in his duty. Then when, victorious at last, he could set his hand to peace and healing, he was murdered in front of his wife by a coward casting himself as a patriot.

The stuff of Epic Tragedy, the flawed Hero to weep for. Shakespeare could have written it.

169 posted on 08/13/2003 5:12:40 PM PDT by LexBaird (Views seen in this tag are closer than they appear.)
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To: LexBaird
He did not ask for the war,

Many of course would argue that.

170 posted on 08/13/2003 5:19:26 PM PDT by wardaddy
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To: dwd1
Thank you for your considered and nuanced viewpoint. While I do not agree with everything you said, I have great regard for your intellectual method.
171 posted on 08/13/2003 5:22:21 PM PDT by gogeo (Freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequences.)
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To: wardaddy
Many of course would argue that.

I know. I've read them. Haven't seen a convincing argument yet that passes Occam's Razor. Let me know if anyone comes up with anything new, like primary source evidence that supports them.

Until then, it's just Lew Rockwell agitprop. The Lost Cause types seem to need a villain to make them seem validated. Trouble is, most of the big figures of the Civil War, on both sides, were just doing what they saw as the demands of God, Duty and Honor. Lincoln, Lee, Grant, Davis; they were more alike than different.

172 posted on 08/13/2003 5:48:30 PM PDT by LexBaird (Views seen in this tag are closer than they appear.)
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To: gogeo
My real friends are the ones who tell me when I am about to fall off of a cliff or step onto a landmine.

Your words are greatly appreciated...
173 posted on 08/13/2003 6:37:06 PM PDT by dwd1 (M. h. D. (Master of Hate and Discontent))
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To: wardaddy
He did not ask for the war,

Many of course would argue that.

President Lincoln is often bashed by the neo-rebs for supporting a constitutional amendment in his inaugural address that supported the maintenance of the domestic institutions of the states, i.e. slavery. What this shows of course is that he bent over backwards to avoid war.

The slavers had their slaves, but that wasn't enough. Only -expansion- of slavery would keep their ponzi scheme going. Lincoln opposed expansion of slavery, so war was the only option the slave power saw to maintain their slave empire.

They sowed the wind, and they reaped the whirlwind.

Walt

174 posted on 08/13/2003 7:46:23 PM PDT by WhiskeyPapa (Virtue is the uncontested prize.)
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To: wardaddy
BTw....don't you usually say the war was fought over slavery?

I couldn't say it better than this:

"One-eighth of the whole population were colored slaves, not distributed generally over the Union, but localized in the southern part of it. These slaves constituted a peculiar and powerful interest. All knew that this interest was somehow the cause of the war. To strengthen, perpetuate, and extend this interest was the object for which the insurgents would rend the Union even by war, while the Government claimed no right to do more than to restrict the territorial enlargement of it."

A. Lincoln, 3/4/65

Walt

175 posted on 08/13/2003 7:50:24 PM PDT by WhiskeyPapa (Virtue is the uncontested prize.)
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To: LexBaird; wardaddy
but he had the sworn duty, as President, to preserve the Nation.

He had the sworn duty to preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States of America.

176 posted on 08/13/2003 7:58:36 PM PDT by stainlessbanner
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To: LexBaird
I do think history has been kind to him...

Sad that he did not live to see the fruit of his labor...
177 posted on 08/13/2003 8:01:56 PM PDT by dwd1 (M. h. D. (Master of Hate and Discontent))
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To: Little Ray
Among other things, he (Lincoln) wanted to colonize blacks back to Africa.

Lincoln wanted to return the freed slaves back to their homeland, the land from which they were forcibly removed. That was very noble of Lincoln.

178 posted on 08/13/2003 8:08:41 PM PDT by usadave
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To: usadave
The only problem was the other half of the slavery issue that is so rarely discussed... THEY DIDN'T WANT US BACK...Africans participated in disinheriting us...One tribe would fight another and the loser got a one way ticket to Dixieland...

These are the same countries that today look down on African Americans but want our tourist and foreign aid dollars... They will be skiing in the place where Lucifer presides and he will be the referee before any accounting for their part in slavery is acknowledged and any contrition is shown...
179 posted on 08/13/2003 8:15:21 PM PDT by dwd1 (M. h. D. (Master of Hate and Discontent))
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To: Ditto
Two days before his "dying day" he gave his last public address where he called for voting rights for blacks.

And four days before it he called on General Butler's advice for carrying out colonization.

PS. Show me one instance where Lincoln called for "deportation".

Happily.

"With deportation, even to a limited extent, enhanced wages to white labor is mathematically certain. Labor is like any other commodity in the market---increase the demand for it, and you increase the price of it. Reduce the supply of black labor, by colonizing the black laborer out of the country, and, by precisely so much, you increase the demand for, and wages of, white labor." - Address to Congress, December 1, 1862

180 posted on 08/13/2003 9:15:38 PM PDT by GOPcapitalist
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To: Ditto
You forgot the rest of the Juneteenth proclamation, as did the link you posted. The full Juneteenth proclamation reads as follows (the part you missed is in bold):

Headquarters, District of Texas
Galveston, Texas, June 19, 1865

General Orders, No. 3.
The people are informed that, in accordance with a proclamation from the Executive of the United States, all slaves are free. This involves an absolute equality of personal rights and rights of property, between former masters and slaves, and the connection heretofore existing between them, becomes that between employer and hired labor. -- The Freedmen are advised to remain at their present homes, and work for wages. They are informed that they will not be allowed to collect at military posts; and that they will not be supported in idleness either there or elsewhere. By order of Major General Granger

(Signed,) F. W. Emery, Maj. & A.A.G.

As reported in The Galveston Daily News, June 21, 1865.

181 posted on 08/13/2003 9:42:07 PM PDT by rustbucket
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To: WhiskeyPapa
Lincoln opposed expansion of slavery, so war was the only option the slave power saw to maintain their slave empire.

False. The expansion argument in the American territories was settled in 1861 when the south voluntarily reliquished their claims to those lands. Had this truly been Lincoln's "bedrock" position as you so frequently claim, he had already attained it without lifting a finger due to secession. Yet Lincoln was obviously not content with that and instead pursued war anyway. He pursued it because it was necessary for him to collect the revenues. Without it his tariff scheme, the same scheme that a few weeks earlier he had called the most important issue facing Congress, wouldn't work.

It was just as Lincoln told his friend Hawkins Taylor when the latter visited Springfield in December 1860 - the tariff, more than any other issue, was what got him into the White House and it was an issue that he would remain firm on.

"He fully agreed with me that to the Tariff Whig element of Penn was he most indebted (and he will not betray it). Towards Penn he feels most greatful and particularly &c towards Cameron who did not send a Packed delegation to Chicago as some others did" - Hawkins Taylor, record of his meeting with Lincoln, December 21, 1860 (emphasis contained in the original)

182 posted on 08/13/2003 9:45:55 PM PDT by GOPcapitalist
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To: LexBaird
Lincoln, Lee, Grant, Davis; they were more alike than different

I would not argue with that at all. I would venture that today we are more polarized generally politically and socially and culturally. Kinda scary isn't it? If reasonable men bound by duty and honour etc found fit to fight a war then, how are we to interpret today where we are obviously more fragmented. All we need are some key issues to come to a boil. We lack the geographic division largely although the conservative (as in the old fashioned status quo or reversion mindset) is still more Southern than elsewhere. Simple musing. I'm putting my money on gun rights and abortion as powder keg issues one day. We must teach our children to be vigilant.

183 posted on 08/13/2003 10:33:56 PM PDT by wardaddy
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To: usadave
ROTFLMAOPIMP.....
184 posted on 08/13/2003 10:38:10 PM PDT by wardaddy
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To: WhiskeyPapa
Lincoln said quite a bit.

What's a neo-Reb? Is anyone here advocating seccession?
185 posted on 08/13/2003 10:39:41 PM PDT by wardaddy
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To: rustbucket
"The Freedmen are advised to remain at their present homes, and work for wages. They are informed that they will not be allowed to collect at military posts; and that they will not be supported in idleness either there or elsewhere. By order of Major General Granger "

So what do you want, LBJ's the GREAT SOCIETY? It was in-fact reconstruction. Where were they to go? Look at Iraq now and picture Texas in June of 1865.

You impose such a double standard that your credibility to anyone who understands the history makes you a total fool. You insist that Lincon be Hubert Humphery or he is evil while you worship a slaver like Davis. That is revisionist nonsense and rustbucket, you are guilty.

186 posted on 08/13/2003 10:43:21 PM PDT by Ditto ( No trees were killed in sending this message, but billions of electrons were inconvenienced.)
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To: GOPcapitalist
"With deportation, even to a limited extent, enhanced wages to white labor is mathematically certain. Labor is like any other commodity in the market---increase the demand for it, and you increase the price of it. Reduce the supply of black labor, by colonizing the black laborer out of the country, and, by precisely so much, you increase the demand for, and wages of, white labor." - Address to Congress, December 1, 1862

So what kind of wages was Jeff Davis proposing to give to blacks under his iron fist? Was there a demand for white cotton pickers at his plantation?

You, like rustbucket, impose a standard on Lincoln that none of your Confederate heroes could possibly reach, or would even want to. They stood for the opposite.

Lincoln was pragmatic and saw that neither blacks nor whites would adjust either socially or economically to emancipation. 150 years of American history have shown that he was more than correct in that assessment, but he was not alone. Other leaders dating all the way back to Madison also favored Colonization as the preferred method to end slavery while avoiding racial division. Was Madison a “bad guy” too?

Lincoln’s advocating separation of the races via colonization was surely not politically correct by current standards (unless you are a Skin-Head or a Black Panther) but where exactly does that leave him in relation to all the bronze icons in Richmond that you worship so deeply who fought to protect slavery?

187 posted on 08/13/2003 11:09:34 PM PDT by Ditto ( No trees were killed in sending this message, but billions of electrons were inconvenienced.)
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To: Ditto
You impose such a double standard that your credibility to anyone who understands the history makes you a total fool. You insist that Lincon be Hubert Humphery or he is evil while you worship a slaver like Davis. That is revisionist nonsense and rustbucket, you are guilty.

My, my. Touchy aren't we. I simply pointed out that you had not posted the entire pronouncement. Let me understand your logic here. You posted the partial pronouncement; I posted the full pronouncement. Yet I am the revisionist?

LOL on the Hubert Humphrey / Abraham Lincoln connection. What an insult to Lincoln, and one I wouldn't have thought of.

I hope you don't mind if I poke a few more holes in your worldview. FYI, the Federal Provost Marshal in Galveston in June 1865 threw a bunch of the slaves in jail so that he could keep them for work he wanted done. Reported in the Galveston paper.

Doesn't quite fit your view of history? My apologies.

188 posted on 08/13/2003 11:20:07 PM PDT by rustbucket
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To: bedolido
One of them informed the other that President Lincoln cared nothing about blacks and was actually a racist.

He was .... Liberia is proof of his intentions to repatriate the blacks after the Civil War.

189 posted on 08/13/2003 11:28:03 PM PDT by Centurion2000 (We are crushing our enemies, seeing him driven before us and hearing the lamentations of the liberal)
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To: GOPcapitalist
The expansion argument in the American territories was settled in 1861 when the south voluntarily reliquished their claims to those lands.

ROFLMAO!!!

Walt

190 posted on 08/14/2003 2:25:04 AM PDT by WhiskeyPapa (Virtue is the uncontested prize.)
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To: GOPcapitalist; Ditto
Two days before his "dying day" he gave his last public address where he called for voting rights for blacks.

And four days before it he called on General Butler's advice for carrying out colonization.

There's no credible proof that Lincoln and Butler met in this time frame. Lincoln did nothing to support colonization after 1/1/63. After black soldiers were enlisted, he began to seek equal rights for them.

Walt

191 posted on 08/14/2003 2:29:17 AM PDT by WhiskeyPapa (Virtue is the uncontested prize.)
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To: wardaddy
Is anyone here advocating seccession?

That would be treason, wouldn't it?

Walt

192 posted on 08/14/2003 3:10:19 AM PDT by WhiskeyPapa (Virtue is the uncontested prize.)
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To: GOPcapitalist; Ditto
Aw, come on GOP. How about quotes in context?

"I cannot make it better known than it already is, that I strongly favor colonization. And yet I wish to say there is an objection urged against free colored persons remaining in the country, which is largely imaginary, if not sometimes malicious.

"It is insisted that their presence would injure, and displace white labor and white laborers. If there ever could be a proper time for mere catch arguments, that time surely is not now. In times like the present, men should utter nothing for which they would not willingly be responsible through time and in eternity. Is it true, then, that colored people can displace any more white labor, by being free, than by remaining slaves? If they stay in their old places, they jostle no white laborers; if they leave their old places, they leave them open to white laborers. Logically, there is neither more nor less of it. Emancipation, even without deportation, would probably enhance the wages of white labor, and, very surely, would not reduce them. Thus, the customary amount of labor would still have to be performed; the freed people would surely not do more than their old proportion of it, and very probably, for a time, would do less, leaving an increased part to white laborers, bringing their labor into greater demand, and, consequently, enhancing the wages of it. With deportation, even to a limited extent, enhanced wages to white labor is mathematically certain. Labor is like any other commodity in the market---increase the demand for it, and you increase the price of it. Reduce the supply of black labor, by colonizing the black laborer out of the country, and, by precisely so much, you increase the demand for, and wages of, white labor.

"But it is dreaded that the freed people will swarm forth, and cover the whole land? Are they not already in the land? Will liberation make them any more numerous? Equally distributed among the whites of the whole country, and there would be but one colored to seven whites. Could the one, in any way, greatly disturb the seven? There are many communities now, having more than one free colored person, to seven whites; and this, without any apparent consciousness of evil from it. The District of Columbia, and the States of Maryland and Delaware, are all in this condition. The District has more than one free colored to six whites; and yet, in its frequent petitions to Congress, I believe it has never presented the presence of free colored persons as one of its grievances. But why should emancipation south, send the free people north? People, of any color, seldom run, unless there be something to run from. Heretofore colored people, to some extent, have fled north from bondage; and now, perhaps, from both bondage and destitution. But if gradual emancipation and deportation be adopted, they will have neither to flee from. Their old masters will give them wages at least until new laborers can be procured; and the freed men, in turn, will gladly give their labor for the wages, till new homes can be found for them, in congenial climes,and with people of their own blood and race. This proposition can be trusted on the mutual interests involved. And, in any event, cannot the north decide for itself, whether to receive them."

Taken in context, rather than out of context, the quote is actually an arguement against

forced deportation rather that in favor of it as you claim.

193 posted on 08/14/2003 4:31:10 AM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: Centurion2000
He was .... Liberia is proof of his intentions to repatriate the blacks after the Civil War.

Liberia was founded in 1817 by the American Colonization Society. It Lincoln was responsible then that's pretty slick work for an 8 year old.

194 posted on 08/14/2003 4:40:37 AM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: Ditto
Look at the date of the quote you cited, my friend! It is June, 1865, a couple months after the surrender! Since the EP went into effect in January, 1863, 2-1/2 years ealier, by your logic the Texas slaves were freed at that time, which is clearly no the historical fact. And where, pray, did the alleged "3 million" slaves that were freed between January, 1863 and December, 1865 come from? Brazil? Haiti? They sure as hell didn't come from any Southern state, or the Confederacy would have heard something about it, and at least commented on it (which, if you knew history at all, never happened). So, before you show your immaturity and ignorance by saying my comment (based on historical fact) is "Marxist" (that's projection for you!), I suggest you read even the most basic history text.
195 posted on 08/14/2003 5:40:14 AM PDT by ought-six
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To: Non-Sequitur
Great Stuff.

President Lincoln's special address to the Congress on 12/01/62 was pretty much the last arrow in his quiver on colonization. After that, there seems to be no mention of colonization by him anywhere again. Early in 1863, he switched over to directing that more black troops be enlisted, and suggesting that they be given the vote. As someone over on the moderated ACW newsgroup suggested, urging colonization is the dog that didn't bark. Lincoln makes no public statement about it all after 12/01/62.

Walt

196 posted on 08/14/2003 5:42:58 AM PDT by WhiskeyPapa (Virtue is the uncontested prize.)
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To: LexBaird
You posit a straw man argument, which is a favorite of liberals. I expected as much.
197 posted on 08/14/2003 5:44:15 AM PDT by ought-six
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To: ought-six
Since the EP went into effect in January, 1863, 2-1/2 years ealier, by your logic the Texas slaves were freed at that time, which is clearly no the historical fact.

That's a shame, isn't it?

Walt

198 posted on 08/14/2003 5:44:51 AM PDT by WhiskeyPapa (Virtue is the uncontested prize.)
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To: wardaddy
the conservative (as in the old fashioned status quo or reversion mindset) is still more Southern than elsewhere.

Precisely why I can't figure out why would-be conservatives continually attack Southerners.

199 posted on 08/14/2003 5:52:56 AM PDT by stainlessbanner
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To: WhiskeyPapa
Sorry, Walt. My "sophistry" as you put it, is just historical fact. Some slaves had "freed themselves" for many, many years before the War or the EP (it was called runaway). The EP did nothing. That's a fact. Read the damn proclamation yourself if you don't believe me. But your unealthy adoration of Lincoln, to the point of god-worship, blinds you to historical fact. Many, many posters have brought that to your attention over the months that I've been on FR.

Now, what weakened the Confederacy was the following:
(1) lack of materiel and supplies vis-a-vis the North;
(2) great imbalance in number of troops (the North had, relatively speaking, an exhaustible supply;
(3) poor military leadership in the West, where they could not afford to lose any major battles (where the North had incompetents like McClellan, Halleck, Butler and Hooker, to name a few, the South had equally lousy generals like Braxton Bragg and John Bell Hood).
200 posted on 08/14/2003 5:54:23 AM PDT by ought-six
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