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White without Apology
TooGoodReports ^ | 08/13/03 | Bernard Chapin

Posted on 08/13/2003 6:57:47 AM PDT by bedolido

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To: GOPcapitalist; WhiskeyPapa
From the index of Routine Correspondences for 1865 in The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln Volume 8, edited by Roy Basler, page 588:

"Apr. 10. To Benjamin F. Butler, Hay for Lincoln, making appointment for ``tomorrow,''"

LOL, I bet he still denies it, GOP. He'll probably post something about how 'The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln' is -not- a -valid- source on Lincoln.

401 posted on 08/30/2003 4:27:29 PM PDT by thatdewd (LOL!)
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To: thatdewd
He'll probably post something about how 'The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln' is -not- a -valid- source on Lincoln.

Exactly. It'll probably be an excerpt from Jim Epperson on the holy bible of wlatdom - the "moderated civil war newsgroup"

402 posted on 08/30/2003 4:31:24 PM PDT by GOPcapitalist
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To: GOPcapitalist
The quote often provided by the neo-rebs to support this contention directed Butler to meet with a congressional committee, not the president.

False. It is a memo from John Hay, Lincoln's personal secretary, scheduling an appointment between Lincoln and Butler.

No........ the quote -often- provided indicates Butler is to report to a congressional committee. This is another quote -often- referred to, and what it certainly DOESN'T show is that there is a record of the president and Butler meeting in this time frame.

Walt

403 posted on 08/30/2003 5:08:21 PM PDT by WhiskeyPapa (Virtue is the uncontested prize.)
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To: GOPcapitalist
There's no reason for you to be rude with personal attacks. I suggest you make an effort to hehave like some modest form of adult.

Nice of you to find the evidence to support Butler though. In any case, Butler, as an acting major general, was in an extremely important and valuable position, and his accounts cite several meetings on the topic. There is no reason they would not have seen each other at any time, appointments or not.

404 posted on 08/30/2003 5:20:37 PM PDT by Held_to_Ransom
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To: Held_to_Ransom
It is no act of rudeness to point out the simple fact that the poster known as WhiskeyPapa, aka Walt, is a liar.

I have directed Walt's attention to that page in the Collected Works of Lincoln no less than a dozen times dating back over several months. It is therefore unreasonable to believe that he is unaware of its existence and safe to conclude that he is perpetrating a willful falsehood. For that reason I call him nothing other than what he is - a liar.

405 posted on 08/30/2003 7:34:10 PM PDT by GOPcapitalist
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To: WhiskeyPapa
This is another quote -often- referred to, and what it certainly DOESN'T show is that there is a record of the president and Butler meeting in this time frame.

Yet the Hay memo DOES show them meeting in the time frame. Thus for you to claim that no evidence exists of them meeting is to perpetrate a willful falsehood.

406 posted on 08/30/2003 7:35:59 PM PDT by GOPcapitalist
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To: GOPcapitalist
There is no proof that Butler and Lincoln even met on the day in question.

Once again Walt that is a falsehood and you are a liar. The meeting between Butler and Lincoln was scheduled in writing by Lincoln's secretary John Hay.

Well, that's a mighty puny "Aha!" Where's the report of the meeting -after- it took place? Where can we see such a document say, written between 1865 and 1891?

You say they were scheduled to meet. There is no record by a third party that they ever -did- meet.

This is surely the most ridiculous exercise in pedantic nonsense ever indulged in.

You can't prove the President and Butler ever even met in this time frame. Butler's single statement 25 years later simply does not meet the criteria needed to add it to a viable historical interpretation.

Walt

407 posted on 08/31/2003 3:27:17 AM PDT by WhiskeyPapa (Virtue is the uncontested prize.)
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To: WhiskeyPapa
This is surely the most ridiculous exercise in pedantic nonsense ever indulged in.

It's good to see you confess, as you must certainly be describing your own posts.

408 posted on 08/31/2003 8:42:50 AM PDT by thatdewd
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To: WhiskeyPapa
Where's the report of the meeting -after- it took place?

In Butler's book.

Where can we see such a document say, written between 1865 and 1891?

If there is such a document I suspect it could be found somewhere in Butler's papers at the Library of Congress - perhaps a diary entry or something. It wouldn't appear anywhere else because the only other person who could have attested to its contents never had the chance because he died 4 days later.

You say they were scheduled to meet. There is no record by a third party that they ever -did- meet.

...and no reason whatsoever to believe that they did not meet. The evidence that they did meet is strong:

First, you have a memo from Lincoln's secretary to Butler saying the equivalent of "the president is gonna meet with you tommorrow so show up at this time." Second you have an account by Butler effectively stating "when I met with Lincoln this is what we talked about..."

That alone is more than sufficient evidence of a meeting to any reasonable person, but since you are not such a person let's suppose more were needed. Now, surely you will admit that a scheduled meeting with the president is a pretty big thing, especially if he takes the time to have his secretary write it down into the record for the day. Now if the meeting never happened despite having been scheduled don't you think Lincoln would have directed Hay to send Butler another memo stating something like "Hey, I know we were supposed to meet for lunch today but something's come up and we're gonna have to do it another time"? Yet no such memo was ever written and no indication exists that the meeting was ever cancelled. It is therefore a safe assumption that it did indeed take place as scheduled.

This is surely the most ridiculous exercise in pedantic nonsense ever indulged in.

My sentiments exactly. So why do you indulge in it?

You can't prove the President and Butler ever even met in this time frame.

Sure I can and in fact I just did. I have documented the meeting on Lincoln's schedule. I have documented Butler stating that he was at the meeting. And I have made note of the fact that no memo cancelling the meeting or otherwise rescheduling it exists. It is therefore a safe conclusion, and one that is also beyond any reasonable doubt, that Butler and Lincoln did indeed meet on April 11, 1865.

Now, as for the contents of that meeting, we have only Butler's testimony. Is it valid? That's a matter of another debate. But the fact that they met to talk about something or another is settled beyond a reasonable doubt by way of documentation in Lincoln's own schedule.

409 posted on 08/31/2003 10:20:28 AM PDT by GOPcapitalist
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To: GOPcapitalist
I have directed Walt's attention to that page in the Collected Works of Lincoln no less than a dozen times dating back over several months. It is therefore unreasonable to believe that he is unaware of its existence and safe to conclude that he is perpetrating a willful falsehood. For that reason I call him nothing other than what he is - a liar.

Then he is just yanking your chain to make you soil your pants. Done it good too. LOL

410 posted on 08/31/2003 1:20:57 PM PDT by Held_to_Ransom
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To: Held_to_Ransom
Then he is just yanking your chain to make you soil your pants.

Not Walt. That isn't the way he operates around here. He posts out of blind adoration and near worship of Abraham Lincoln. Persons and facts who get in his way are simply inconveniences to him, which he intentionally ignores, excuses away, and overlooks. It has made an habitual liar out of him and I do not shy away from calling him that when it is applicable.

411 posted on 08/31/2003 2:41:55 PM PDT by GOPcapitalist
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To: WhiskeyPapa; GOPcapitalist
[Wlat] Lincoln appears to have made no comments on colonization at all in the last two years of his life.

That is a many times documented large rotund inadvertant statement. Below is a copy of an official letter of Attorney General Bates replying to Lincoln's question concerning Lincoln's authority to retain the Revd Mr Mitchell as Lincoln's assistant or aid in the matter of executing the several acts of Congress relating to the emigration or Colonizing of the freed blacks.

In 1864, Lincoln was still talking about Colonizing.

Transcribed and Annotated by the Lincoln Studies Center,
Knox College. Galesburg, Illinois.

From Edward Bates to Abraham Lincoln, November 30, 1864

Washington, Nov 30 1864.

Honored Sir,

I beg your pardon for having overlooked, in the pressure of business, in my latter days in the office, the duty to give formal answer to your question concerning your power still to retain the Revd Mr Mitchell1 as your assistant or aid in the matter of executing the several acts of Congress relating to the emigration or Colonizing of the freed blacks.

[Note 1 Lincoln had appointed the Reverend James Mitchell of Indiana the agent for emigration in 1862. For more on this case, see Mitchell to Lincoln, October 20, 1864.]

It is too late for me now to give a formal opinion upon the question, as this is my last day in office. I can only say that, having examined all the acts referred to, I am satisfied that, notwithstanding the act which repeals the appropriation contingently, you still have something to do, under those acts; and therefore, that you have the same right to continue Mr Mitchell that you had to appoint him originally. And I hope it will be done, for he seems to be a good man, of zeal & capacity.

Most respectfully Sir

Your obt servt

Edwd. Bates

[nc: Underline and internal note as in Library of Congress transcript.]



412 posted on 09/01/2003 1:29:52 AM PDT by nolu chan
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To: thatdewd; WhiskeyPapa
[Walt] There is no proof they ever met in this time frame.

Here is yet another meeting from an earlier timeframe, just to add additional context to the meeting to 1865.

Butler's Book, Benjamin F. Butler, 1892, p. 577-9

In the spring of 1863, I had another conversation with President Lincoln upon the subject of the employment of negroes. The question was, whether all the negro troops then enlisted and organized should be collected together and made a part of the Army of the Potomac and thus reinforce it.

* * *

We then talked of a favourite project he had of getting rid of the negroes by colonization, and he asked me what I thought of it. I told him that it was simply impossible; that the negroes would not go away, for they loved their homes as much as the rest of us, and all efforts at colonization would not make a substantial impression upon the number of negroes in the country.

Reverting to the subject of arming the negroes, I said to him that it might be possible to start with a sufficient army of white troops, and, avoiding a march which might deplete their ranks by death and sickness, to take in ships and land them somewhere on the Southern coast. These troops could then come up through the Confederacy, gathering up negroes, who could be armed at first with arms that they could handle, so as to defend themselves and aid the rest of the army in case of rebel charges upon it. In this way we could establish ourselves down there with an army that would be a terror to the whole South.

He asked me what I would arm them with. I told him John Brown had intended, if he got loose in the mountains of Virginia, to arm his negroes with spears and revolvers; and there was a great deal in that. Negroes would know how to use those arms, and the southern troops would not know how to meet their use of them, and they could be easily transported in large numbers and would require no great expense or trouble in supplying ammunition.

"That is a new idea, General," said he.

"No, Mr. President," I answered, "it is a very old one. The fathers of these negroes, and some of the negroes themselves, fought their battles in Agrica with no other weapon, save a club. Although we have substituted the bayonet for the spear, yet as long as the soldier can shoot he is not inclined to use the bayonet. In fact, bayonets are of no use, they are only for show. But probably the time has not come for dropping them."

413 posted on 09/01/2003 2:04:01 AM PDT by nolu chan
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To: A_perfect_lady
I wonder...do you pay an income tax? Probably. Well, Sis, welcome to the world of indentured slavery. While color has nothing to do with slavery, the greed for power does. Ever heard of "To kill to get gain?" While anyone has the potential to be a slave, they can easily gravitate to becoming masters as well. Masters of what, however, will determine whether they are slaves...or not.

Arrowhead>>>------slavery in all it's forms----->Freedom

414 posted on 09/01/2003 2:41:49 AM PDT by Arrowhead
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To: WhiskeyPapa; GOPcapitalist
[Walt] Where's the report of the meeting -after- it took place?

Butler's Book, Benjamin F. Butler, 1892, pp. 903-8

A conversation was held between us after the negotiations had failed at Hampton Roads, and in the course of the conversation he said to me: --

"But what shall we do with the negroes after they are free? I can hardly believe that the South and North can live in peace, unless we can get rid of the negroes. Certainly they cannot if we don't get rid of the negroes whom we have armed and disciplined and who have fought with us, to the amount, I believe, of some one hundred and fifty thousand men. I believe that it would be better to export them all to some fertile country with a good climate, which they could have to themselves.

"You have been a stanch friend of the race from the time you first advised me to enlist them at New Orleans. You have had a good deal of experience in moving bodies of men by water, -- your movement up the James was a magnificent one. Now, we shall have no use for our very large navy; what, then are our difficulties in sending all the blacks away?

"If these black soldiers of ours go back to the South I am afraid that they will be but little better off with their masters than they were before, and yet they will be free men. I fear a race war, and it will be at least a guerilla war because we have taught these men how to fight. All the arms of the South are now in the hands of their troops, and when we capture them we of course will take their arms. There are plenty of men in the North who will furnish the negroes with arms if there is any oppression of them by their late masters.

"I wish you would carefully examine the question and give me your views upon it and go into the figures, as you did before in some degree, so as to show whether the negroes can be exported. I wish also you would give me any views that you have as to how to deal with the negro troops after the war. Some people think that we shall have trouble with our white troops after they are disbanded, but I don't anticipate anything of that sort, for all the intelligent men among them were good citizens or they would not have been good soldiers. But the question of the colored troops troubles me exceedingly. I wish you would to this as soon as you can, because I am to go down to City Point shortly and may meet negotiators for peace there, and I may want to talk this matter over with General Grant if he isn't too busy."

I said: "I will go over this matter with all diligence and tell you my conclusions as soon as I can."

The second day after that, I called early in the morning and said: "Mr. President, I have gone very carefully over my calculations as to the power of the country to export the negroes of the South, and I assure you that using all your naval vessels and all the merchant marine fit to cross the seas with safety, it will be impossible for you to transport them to the nearest place that can be found fit for them, -- and that is the Island of San Domingo, -- half as fast as negro children will be born here."

"I am afraid you are right, General," was his answer; "but have you thought what we shall do with the negro soldiers?"

I said: "I have formulated a scheme wihich I will suggest to you, Mr. President. We have now enlisted one hundred and fifty thousand negro troops, more or less, infantry, cavalry, and artillery. They were enlisted for three years or for the war. We did not commence enlisting them in any numbers until the latter part of 1863 and in 1864. I assume that they have a year at least on an average to serve, and some of them two to three years. We have arms, equipment, clothing, and military material and everything necessary for three hundred thousand troops for five years. Until the war is declared ended by official proclamation, which cannot be done for some very considerable time, they can be ordered to serve wherever the commander-in-chief may direct.

"Now I have had some experience in digging canals. The reason why my canal, which was well dug, did not succed you know, My experience during the war has shown me that the army organization is one of the very best for digging. Indeed, many of the troops have spent a large portion of their time in digging in forts and intrenchments, and especially the negroes, for they were always put into the worl when possible. The United States wants a ship canal across the Isthmus of Darien at some proper and convenient point. Now, I know of a concession made by the United States of Colombia of a strip thirty miles wide across the Isthmus for that purpose. I have the confidence of the negroes. If you will put me in command of them, I will take them down there and dig the canal. It will cost the United States nothing but their pay, the clothing that they wear will be otherwise eaten by moths, the arms are of no worth, as we have so many of them in excess; the wagons and equipments will otherwise rust out. I should set one third of them to digging. I should set another third to building the proper buildings for shelter and the rest to planting the ground and raising food. They will hardly need supplies from the government beyond the first season, having vegetable supplies which they will raise and which will be best for their health. After we get ourselves established we will petitition Congress under your recommendation to send down to us our wives and children. You need not send down anybody to guard us, because if fifty thousand well-equipped men cannot take care of ourselves against anyody who would attack us in that neighborhood, we are not fit to go there. We shall thus form a colony there which will protect the canal and the interests of the United States against the world, and at least we shall protect the country from the guerilla warfare of the negro troops until the danger from it is over."

He reflected a while, having given the matter his serious attention, and then spoke up, using his favorite phrase: "There is meat in that, General Butler; there is meat in that. But how will it affect our foreign relations? I want you to go and talk it over with Mr. Seward and get his objections, if he has any, and see how you can answer them. There is no special hurry about that, however. I will think it over, but nothing had better be said upon it which will get outside."

"Well, then, Mr. President," I said, "I will take time to elaborate my proposition carefully in writing before I rpesent it to Mr. Seward."

I bowed and retired, and that was the last interview I have had with Abraham Lincoln.

415 posted on 09/01/2003 2:48:55 AM PDT by nolu chan
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To: WhiskeyPapa; GOPcapitalist
[Wlat] Lincoln appears to have made no comments on colonization at all in the last two years of his life.

[1863]

"Nov. 5. To James Mitchell, Nicolay for Lincoln, granting interview for this date, DLC-Nicolay Papers." CW:APP2:525

This was a meeting with members of the African Civilization Society.

What were they discussing Wlat? Mass migration to Massachusetts?


[LINK]

Abraham Lincoln Papers at the Library of Congress. Transcribed and Annotated by the Lincoln Studies Center, Knox College. Galesburg, Illinois.

From James Mitchell to Abraham Lincoln1, November 5, 1863

[Note 1 Mitchell, an Indiana minister, was appointed the commissioner for emigration in 1862.]

[Marginal note: Colinization]

Washington Nov 5th/63

The Officers of "The African Civilization Society", are in attendance and respectfully ask a short interview -- they are

G W Levere, President

H M Wilson, Sect

R H Cain,2 Director

[Note 2 Richard H. Cain was a minister of the African Methodist Episcopal church at Brooklyn, New York. Following the Civil War, Cain moved to South Carolina where he was active in missionary work and politics. He served in the state legislature and was elected to two terms in Congress (1873-75, 1877-79). In 1880 Cain was ordained a bishop.]

P S Porter, ... "

Wm Anderson, ... "

I have the honor to

remain your servant

James Mitchell.

Comm. of E[migration]

[Endorsement:]

Appointed to see them at 4 ocl P M3

[Note 3 The officers of the African Civilization Society presented Lincoln with a petition requesting $5,000 to aid the work of the society. See African Civilization Society to Abraham Lincoln, November 5, 1863.]



416 posted on 09/01/2003 3:31:31 AM PDT by nolu chan
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To: GOPcapitalist; thatdewd
[GOPcap] Exactly. It'll probably be an excerpt from Jim Epperson on the holy bible of wlatdom - the "moderated civil war newsgroup"

Now that you mention Jim Epperson and the ACW moderated heehaw, remember this?

LINK

[Wlat] There is no reasonable interpretation that will say anything but that there is no legal right to unilateral state secession. The judicial power of the United States rests with the Supreme Court. --Every-- Justice agreed in 1863 that the Militia Act gave the power to the president to suprress rebellion. The majority opinion in that case referred to the rebels as traitors. These are the facts of the matter. If you -had- anything of note to say, which you apparently do not, it would be muted by your unsupportable position on this one issue.

This is from Dorr v. Rhode Island:

[long quote]

LINK

[nc] Dear Lurkers:

Don't waste your time looking for famous decision Dorr v. Rhode Island, decided unanimously by the Supreme Court in 1863.

LINK

[Wlat quoting from the ACW moderated heehaw it seems.]

My error.

"The Supreme Court decision in question is Luther v. Borden, from 1849, resolving a dispute that started in 1841.

* * *

By a vote of 8-1, with Chief Justice Roger Taney writing the majority decision, the Court ruled that Congress alone had the authority to do this, that it was a "political question," and therefore not something for the Court to decide.

* * *

Jim Epperson


Let's see.

Walt wrote authoritatively about a court decision he had not even seen, much less read and understood, but he definitely knew the case citation and that it was unanimous.

He had read about a decision over on his unimpeachable ACW moderated heehaw.

There was no such case as Dorr v. Rhode Island.

There was only one Supreme Court decision in 1863 and that wasn't it.

It was not from 1863, it was from 1849.

- Every - justice agreed: * 8-1 * with CJ Taney writing for the majority.

It was Luther v. Borden, not Dorr v. Rhode Island.

Had Walt so much as looked at the actual decision, he would have seen that it was Luther v. Borden (1849). It was impossible to see a caption of Dorr v. Rhode Island.

417 posted on 09/01/2003 4:14:34 AM PDT by nolu chan
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To: nolu chan
Quote President Lincoln.

He seems to have made no statements at all on colonization in the last two years of his life. He -did- say that if Blacks could find permanent homes in Massachusetts it would relieve a problem, and he often said that blacks should have their full liberty, and he worked hard on the passage of the 13th and 14th amendments, and he worked to get black soldiers the vote.

Walt

418 posted on 09/01/2003 5:41:28 AM PDT by WhiskeyPapa (Virtue is the uncontested prize.)
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To: nolu chan; WhiskeyPapa
The -fact- that he wanted to retain Mitchell's services even -after- the radicals took away his colonization money is -proof- that he still supported and earnestly believed in -colonization-.
419 posted on 09/01/2003 7:39:27 AM PDT by thatdewd ("Oh boy, sleep! That's where I'm a viking!" - Ralph Wiggum)
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To: nolu chan
Walt wrote authoritatively about a court decision he had not even seen, much less read and understood...

He does a lot of that, hoping lurkers won't check into it for themselves.

420 posted on 09/01/2003 7:59:59 AM PDT by thatdewd ("Oh boy, sleep! That's where I'm a viking!" - Ralph Wiggum)
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To: WhiskeyPapa
He seems to have made no statements at all on colonization in the last two years of his life.

lol, he started a test colony in Haiti in the spring of 1863 (contract authorized in April 1863), and it ran throughout that year and until early 1864. By that time the radicals were well into the process of shutting him down and taking away his colonization money. Even after they did, he still wanted to keep his "colonization" commissioner, a clear indication he wasn't giving up on his pet program even though his funds had been pulled for the moment. As for him making statements, he made some doosies. Just read Butler's book. (and see below)

He -did- say that if Blacks could find permanent homes in Massachusetts it would relieve a problem,...

If you'll bother to read the beginning of Abe's letter, he specifically states:

"If I were to judge from the letter, without any external knowledge, I should suppose that all the colored people South of Washington were struggling to get to Massachusetts; that Massachusetts was anxious to receive and retain the whole of them as permament citizens; and that the United States Government here was interposing and preventing this. But I suppose these are neither really the facts, nor meant to be asserted as true by you."

LOL, don't you even read the stuff you post?. Lincoln's follow-up comment in his letter to Governer Andrew that you referenced is clearly poking fun at Andrew's hyperboles, which Lincoln points out in the very beginning of the letter. Andrew wanted black labor for Massachusett's industry and made it sound like the entire country and war effort would collapse if he didn't get it. The "very difficult point" that Lincoln refers to in the follow-up, and which you refer to as a "problem", is obviously "where" to send the black people. Lincoln is making reference to his desire to colonize the black people somewhere, and joking with Andrew about using Massachusetts. That, BTW, was in 1864.

...and he often said that blacks should have their full liberty

He often said they should excercise their liberties somplace far AWAY from white people. Like, -NOT- in North America. Like maybe in South America, or Africa, or Central America, or the Carribbean. Those were the places he suggested, anyway. But NOT here, or in the territories. He wanted the territories to be for white people, and he said so.

...and he worked hard on the passage of the 13th and 14th amendments,...

He was always against slavery, that's true, and he did support the 'second' 13th amendment. But it's also a -fact- that he "worked hard" to pass the original 13th Amendment -protecting- slavery forever. As to the 14th, I hardly think anyone can say he "worked hard" for its passage.

...and he worked to get black soldiers the vote.

"worked"? He mentioned his support of the idea one time in public, and then only to make it clear he did not agree with the other Republicans who wanted all blacks to have it. At the very end, he only supported the idea of letting soldiers and "the very intelligent" have it. What about the rest, since he was obviously making conditional and exclusionary non-hereditary distinctions. What did he intend for the rest, or the offspring of the small group he was willing to give it to? I think his discussion with Butler answers that obvious question.


"Negro equality! Fudge!! How long, in the government of a God, great enough to make and maintain this Universe, shall there continue knaves to vend, and fools to gulp, so low a piece of demagougeism as this." - Abraham Lincoln circa 1859/60 (Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln, Volume 3, page 399)

421 posted on 09/01/2003 1:54:26 PM PDT by thatdewd ("Oh boy, sleep! That's where I'm a viking!" - Ralph Wiggum)
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To: WhiskeyPapa
[Walt 418] He -did- say that if Blacks could find permanent homes in Massachusetts it would relieve a problem,

As you seem either unwilling or unable to comprehend the Lincoln letter you continue to post, or you choose to deliberately misrepresent what it says, I will translate it for you.

The Governor of Massachusetts wanted to import Blacks from Virginia for the purpose of recruiting them into the army. According to Epperson's web site, there were only 9,362 blacks in the state of Massachusetts in 1860. Yea verily, the Underground Railroad did not stop in Massachusetts. The Governor of Massachusetts did not want black people living in the state, he wanted them imported just long enough to put them in the army and export them back out of the state.

Let me simplify this. Governor Andrews did not want to fill his conscription requirement with White people. The almost lily-white state had no black people to force into service. They wanted to import Black people to fill their conscription quota.

Either you deliberately ignore, or are unable to comprehend, the sarcasm of Lincoln's response to Governor Andrews.

Washington, February 18. 1864.

Governor Andrew

Yours of the 12th was received yesterday. If I were to judge from the letter, without any external knowledge, I should suppose that all the colored people South of Washington were struggling to get to Massachusetts; that Massachusetts was anxious to receive and retain the whole of them as permament citizens; and that the United States Government here was interposing and preventing this. But I suppose these are neither really the facts, nor meant to be asserted as true by you. Coming down to what I suppose to be the real facts, you are engaged in trying to raise colored troops for the U. S. and wish to take recruits from Virginia, through Washington, to Massachusetts for that object; and the loyal Governor of Virginia, also trying to raise troops for us, objects to you taking his material away; while we, having to care for all, and being responsible alike to all, have to do as much for him, as we would have to do for you, if he was, by our authority, taking men from Massachusetts to fill up Virginia regiments. No more than this has been intended by me; nor, as I think, by the Secretary of War. There may have been some abuses of this, as a rule, which, if known, should be prevented in future.

If, however, it be really true that Massachusetts wishes to afford a permanent home within her borders, for all, or even a large number of colored persons who will come to her, I shall be only too glad to know it. It would give relief in a very difficult point; and I would not for a moment hinder from going, any person who is free by the terms of the proclamation or any of the acts of Congress.

A. Lincoln


422 posted on 09/01/2003 9:06:29 PM PDT by nolu chan
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To: mattdono
Most everyone that hangs out at these places seems to be a psuedo-intellectual Marxist

Isn't that the truth, and they will call you a Nazi! I wonder if any of them ever really read any of the books on Hitler or by Hitler?

423 posted on 09/01/2003 9:09:47 PM PDT by ladyinred (The left have blood on their hands.)
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To: bedolido
Wonderful article. Especially touching about feeling like the Indian (native American now) in the old commericals. That brought it home to me.
424 posted on 09/01/2003 9:11:04 PM PDT by ladyinred (The left have blood on their hands.)
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To: WhiskeyPapa
[Wlat] Quote President Lincoln.

Butler's Book, Benjamin F. Butler, 1892, pp. 903-8

A conversation was held between us after the negotiations had failed at Hampton Roads, and in the course of the conversation he said to me: --

QUOTING LINCOLN

"But what shall we do with the negroes after they are free? I can hardly believe that the South and North can live in peace, unless we can get rid of the negroes. Certainly they cannot if we don't get rid of the negroes whom we have armed and disciplined and who have fought with us, to the amount, I believe, of some one hundred and fifty thousand men. I believe that it would be better to export them all to some fertile country with a good climate, which they could have to themselves.

"You have been a stanch friend of the race from the time you first advised me to enlist them at New Orleans. You have had a good deal of experience in moving bodies of men by water, -- your movement up the James was a magnificent one. Now, we shall have no use for our very large navy; what, then are our difficulties in sending all the blacks away?

"If these black soldiers of ours go back to the South I am afraid that they will be but little better off with their masters than they were before, and yet they will be free men. I fear a race war, and it will be at least a guerilla war because we have taught these men how to fight. All the arms of the South are now in the hands of their troops, and when we capture them we of course will take their arms. There are plenty of men in the North who will furnish the negroes with arms if there is any oppression of them by their late masters.

"I wish you would carefully examine the question and give me your views upon it and go into the figures, as you did before in some degree, so as to show whether the negroes can be exported. I wish also you would give me any views that you have as to how to deal with the negro troops after the war. Some people think that we shall have trouble with our white troops after they are disbanded, but I don't anticipate anything of that sort, for all the intelligent men among them were good citizens or they would not have been good soldiers. But the question of the colored troops troubles me exceedingly. I wish you would to this as soon as you can, because I am to go down to City Point shortly and may meet negotiators for peace there, and I may want to talk this matter over with General Grant if he isn't too busy."

CLOSE QUOTE BUTLER QUOTING LINCOLN

425 posted on 09/01/2003 9:14:58 PM PDT by nolu chan
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To: WhiskeyPapa
[Wlat] He -did- say that if Blacks could find permanent homes in Massachusetts it would relieve a problem, and he often said that blacks should have their full liberty, and he worked hard on the passage of the 13th and 14th amendments, and he worked to get black soldiers the vote.

Well, if you believe all that, you might as well take the following and declare Abe to be an early pioneer fighting for women's suffrage.

LINK

Lincoln, Abraham, 1809-1865.: Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln. Volume 1.

CW:1:48

To the Editor of the Sangamo Journal [1]

NEW SALEM, June 13, 1836.

To the Editor of the Journal:

In your paper of last Saturday, I see a communication over the signature of ``Many Voters,'' in which the candidates who are announced in the Journal, are called upon to ``show their hands.'' Agreed. Here's mine!

I go for all sharing the privileges of the government, who assist in bearing its burthens. Consequently I go for admitting all whites to the right of suffrage, who pay taxes or bear arms, (by no means excluding females.)

If elected, I shall consider the whole people of Sangamon my constituents, as well those that oppose, as those that support me. [2]

While acting as their representative, I shall be governed by their will, on all subjects upon which I have the means of knowing what their will is; and upon all others, I shall do what my own judgment teaches me will best advance their interests. Whether elected or not, I go for distributing the proceeds of the sales of the public lands to the several states, to enable our state, in common with others, to dig canals and construct rail roads, without borrowing money and paying interest on it.

If alive on the first Monday in November, I shall vote for Hugh L. White for President. [3]

Very respectfully,

A. LINCOLN.

Annotation

[1] Sangamo Journal, June 18, 1836.

[2] Lincoln received the highest vote of the seventeen Sangamon County candidates for the legislature on election day, August 1. The seven members elected from Sangamon were Whigs.

[3] Hugh Lawson White, United States Senator from Tennessee, led Van Buren in New Salem 65 to 34; in Springfield 719 to 376; and in Sangamon County 1463 to 903. Van Buren carried the state 18,459 to 15,240. White received the electoral votes of only two states, Tennessee and Georgia.

426 posted on 09/02/2003 12:15:39 AM PDT by nolu chan
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To: nolu chan
QUOTING LINCOLN

"But what shall we do with the negroes after they are free? I can hardly believe that the South and North can live in peace, unless we can get rid of the negroes. Certainly they cannot if we don't get rid of the negroes whom we have armed and disciplined and who have fought with us, to the amount, I believe, of some one hundred and fifty thousand men. I believe that it would be better to export them all to some fertile country with a good climate, which they could have to themselves.

You haven't quoted Lincoln. You've quoted Butler as saying, "here is what Lincoln said."

Without corroboration, it means little.

Walt

427 posted on 09/02/2003 1:21:44 AM PDT by WhiskeyPapa (Virtue is the uncontested prize.)
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To: WhiskeyPapa
[Wlat] QUOTE You haven't quoted Lincoln. You've quoted Butler as saying, "here is what Lincoln said." CLOSE QUOTE

Look up there ^. That is Wlat being quoted by me. That is me saying, "here is what Wlat said." And that is what Wlat said, word for word. As usual, it means little.

428 posted on 09/02/2003 11:03:20 AM PDT by nolu chan
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To: WhiskeyPapa
What, exactly, was it that Lincoln considered a greater evil, even to the cause of human liberty itself?

The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln, Vol. 2, page 130

LINK

A Greater Evil, Even to the Cause of Human Liberty Itself

Abraham Lincoln
July 6, 1852

HONORS TO HENRY CLAY

Having been led to allude to domestic slavery so frequently already, I am unwilling to close without referring more particularly to Mr. Clay's views and conduct in regard to it. He ever was, on principle and in feeling, opposed to slavery. The very earliest, and one of the latest public efforts of his life, separated by a period of more than fifty years, were both made in favor of gradual emancipation of the slaves in Kentucky. He did not perceive, that on a question of human right, the negroes were to be excepted from the human race. And yet Mr. Clay was the owner of slaves. Cast into life where slavery was already widely spread and deeply seated, he did not perceive, as I think no wise man has perceived, how it could be at once eradicated, without producing a greater evil, even to the cause of human liberty itself.

429 posted on 09/02/2003 11:05:31 AM PDT by nolu chan
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To: WhiskeyPapa
You must remember that Lincoln knew the south well. Reading Alexander Stephens is helpful on the matter becaue he was Lincoln's very close friend. Seward too. It is not unreasonable to think that Lincoln and Seward shared some similar understandings on race, and reading either Seward of Stephens is makes that David Duke fellow look incredibly mellow.

I would call your attention to the primary fact the Butler is so slandered to day is that he formed not only the first regiments of Americans of African heritage, but also the first Amry Corps officered by Americans of African heritage. THey beat some of Lee's 'best' too, but our history avoids that. Read BLack Jack pershings comments such troops to get an idea of just how hard set the hostilities to Butler were, let alone all the slander in the commonly accepted histories of the man.

Butler's book, by the way, is excellent and an extremely enjoyable insight into the times. As for the time of his writing it, so what? He was in politics all his life, and most politicians didn't write memoirs until their retirement in those days.

Ben Butler slammed the KKK in 1871, and killed in the 1960's. God bless the man and ground he walked. When Lincoln asked him to be his Vice president Butler told him 'only if you agree to die or resign in three months.' Now you know why.

Thaddeus Stevens freed the slaves, Charles Sumner at least graced the Constitution with an amendment anyone could read but almost no one honered for a hundred years. Lincoln gets the credit because the popular perception has been since the EP that he did free the slaves. Nearly all of the poeple were fooled most of the time, but Thaddeus wasn't either.

The real heart of your argument is that Lincoln didn't write his memoroirs in 4 days. That's not a sound argument for anything. Anyone well familiar with Lincoln will know he shared the same attitudes Stephens did about telling everyone the same thing. He didn't. The idea that you could be sure of anything he wrote on the matter is therefore questionable in any case. Butler, however, went to the matt for Americans of African heritage, and has been buried in racist defensive garbage for it. That Lincoln wasn't speaks volumes in plain english.

430 posted on 09/02/2003 8:47:48 PM PDT by Held_to_Ransom
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