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White without Apology
TooGoodReports ^ | 08/13/03 | Bernard Chapin

Posted on 08/13/2003 6:57:47 AM PDT by bedolido

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To: dead
The trouble with mentioning Thomas, Rice etc is that it is very likely the clerks wouldn't know who they are.
51 posted on 08/13/2003 8:30:44 AM PDT by xp38
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To: XRdsRev
Lincoln clearly believed slavery was wrong and evil. Anybody who has ever made a serious study of his pre-war writings and speeches knows this.

So how come he didn't just issue the Emancipation Proclamation upon taking office, or upon the outset of the war? It doesn't appear to me that it was such a high priority for him.

52 posted on 08/13/2003 8:33:28 AM PDT by squidly
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To: rdb3
thanks. putting it up on my FR "about" page under "Great Quotes"
53 posted on 08/13/2003 8:33:42 AM PDT by King Prout (people hear and do not listen, see and do not observe, speak without thought, post and not edit)
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To: Lazamataz
Why, whatever do you mean???

You are wicked bad, sir.

Funny, but wicked bad....[g]

54 posted on 08/13/2003 8:36:44 AM PDT by mhking
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To: mtbopfuyn
Es tut mir sehr leid, mein herr, aber das gehts nicht weil sie habe jede krieg verloren...

I think there is a case to be made that every country has parts of it's history to be ashamed of...We try to forget about the bad and remember the good... However, you may not get that much sympathy from a historical standpoint based on the fact that Germans have buried a few bodies themselves....

As I said, "Live in the present, but learn from the past!"

See you at Octoberfest... I will be driving my Mercedes, we can eat bratwurst, and I will gladly do the chicken dance after we have a weizen beer, but I think we all as American need to understand that we have not always been as fair and just as we are now and we still have more work to do. (3 years in Ramstein...Es war wunderschön)

55 posted on 08/13/2003 8:37:40 AM PDT by dwd1 (M. h. D. (Master of Hate and Discontent))
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To: rdb3
Lends credence to my theory that American blacks are in what I call "The Marxist Laboratory."

And that's the polite way of putting it...

56 posted on 08/13/2003 8:37:49 AM PDT by mhking
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To: squidly
Political suicide...

Also, Lincoln's highest priority was to preserve the union...
57 posted on 08/13/2003 8:39:11 AM PDT by dwd1 (M. h. D. (Master of Hate and Discontent))
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To: dwd1
You don't show any evidence of continuing "institutional racism." All of your examples date to 1964 or before. Additionally, "racism" is not the same thing as "sexism." And you also ignore the fact that division of labor among the sexes isn't necessarily a bad thing -- there were feminists who fought against the right to vote, precisely because they did not want to shoulder the duties that men do. In 2003, now that women are in the armed forces and are raped in war, I wonder if they were right...
58 posted on 08/13/2003 8:45:35 AM PDT by =Intervention= (White devils for Sharpton Central Florida chapter)
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To: dwd1
Political suicide... Also, Lincoln's highest priority was to preserve the union...

Thank you, that's the point I was making all along.

59 posted on 08/13/2003 8:48:32 AM PDT by squidly
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To: A_perfect_lady
Also, I have heard that the South lost because of the lack of manpower, the naval blockade, and the lack of quality manufacturing capability...

The "Thanks for the Cotton" remark does seem to indicate a dismissive, patronizing, and perhaps unsympathetic attitude but that is your right.

60 posted on 08/13/2003 8:50:37 AM PDT by dwd1 (M. h. D. (Master of Hate and Discontent))
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To: mhking
What? Me, polite? Guess I'm losing my touch. ;-)
61 posted on 08/13/2003 8:54:26 AM PDT by rdb3 (I'm not a complete idiot. Several parts are missing.)
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To: A_perfect_lady
By the way, I don't think we want reparations and the only apology I want is from the African Nations that facilitated slavery because they have never acknowledged any responsibility . There is no amount you could pay to erase the stain of slavery...just give me the courtesy of being honest and saying it was not such a good thing or you would have wanted to be a slave yourself....All I have ever asked for is equal protection and opportunity and please...don't let it happen again....

62 posted on 08/13/2003 8:55:30 AM PDT by dwd1 (M. h. D. (Master of Hate and Discontent))
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To: Huck
I hadn't realized Lew Rockwell was actually a black grocery store clerk, and leave it at that.

Lew Rockwell is too surly and rude to last very long in a well-managed supermarket.

63 posted on 08/13/2003 8:59:20 AM PDT by jimt
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To: dwd1
Why did the South lack manpower? Why couldn't they do anything about the Naval blockade? Why did they lack quality manufacturing capability? Because an agrarian economy can't compete with an idustrial economy.

Look, I'm just sick of this BS. I am beginning to feel VERY dismissive and unsympathetic, because the black American community has drained the sympathy right out of me with their attitude that all whites all over the world are culpable for slavery. Blacks and Arabs in Africa own slaves to this very day! If you don't like slavery, don't embrace Marxism. The fact that black Americans are embracing it with both arms as well as working hard to make sure that white Americans are forced to work to support them via social programs tell me that they have nothing against slavey at all. They just want to be the masters, that's all.

64 posted on 08/13/2003 9:03:48 AM PDT by A_perfect_lady (Let them eat cake.)
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To: dwd1
As black conservatives we are never going to have credibility if we accept the opinion of a revisionist who denies that black people have been treated unfairly by both political parties at times when it served their needs.

Preach, preacher!

But let me interject this l'il tidbit: We're not "black conservatives." We're "conservative blacks."

Let that marinate.

65 posted on 08/13/2003 9:04:55 AM PDT by rdb3 (I'm not a complete idiot. Several parts are missing.)
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To: dwd1
And the nerve of you to say "don't let it happen again." It's all Africa's fault, frankly. And they're still doing it!
66 posted on 08/13/2003 9:06:42 AM PDT by A_perfect_lady (Let them eat cake.)
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To: Huck
I'll just make a crack and say I hadn't realized Lew Rockwell was actually a black grocery store clerk, and leave it at that.

Isn't it funny how radicals at either end of the spectrum both require factious history to support their ideology? In this case, they live the same fiction.

67 posted on 08/13/2003 9:08:15 AM PDT by Ditto ( No trees were killed in sending this message, but billions of electrons were inconvenienced.)
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To: Lazamataz
Keep your finger off the button and step away, hands in the air.
68 posted on 08/13/2003 9:16:05 AM PDT by justshutupandtakeit (America's Enemies foreign and domestic agree. Bush must be destroyed.)
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To: justshutupandtakeit
LOL! This is gonna be fuuuunnn...... :o)
69 posted on 08/13/2003 9:16:49 AM PDT by Lazamataz (PROUDLY POSTING WITHOUT READING THE ARTICLE SINCE 1999!)
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To: squidly
Correct. Lincoln freed the slaves, (the southern ones, anyway) for political reason, not for moral ones. The northern slaves weren't freed until after his death.

The president had no power whatsoever to interfere with the institution of slavery during the normal administration of the government. President Lincoln worked hard for passage of the 13th and 14th amendments. He freed the slaves in the insurgent area under the war power granted the president in the Constitution.

Lincoln wrote two famous letters on this subject.

To James Conkling:

"But to be plain, you are dissatisfied with me about the negro. Quite likely there is a difference of opinion between you and myself upon that subject. I certainly wish that all men could be free, while I suppose that you do not. Yet I have neither adopted nor proposed any measure, which is not consistant even with your view, provided you are for the Union. I suggested compensated emancipation; to which you replied you wished not to be taxed to buy negroes. But I had not asked you to be taxed to buy negroes, except in such way, as to save you from greater expense, to save the Union exclusively by other means. You dislike the emancipatio proclamation; and perhaps, would have it retracted. You say it is unconstitutional--I think differently. I think the Constitution invests the commander in chief with the law of war, in time of war.

The most that can be said, if so much, is, that slaves are property. Is there--has there ever been--any question that by the law of war, property, both of enemies and friends, may be taken when needed? And is it not needed whenever taking it helps us, or hurts the enemy?

....but the proclamation, as law, either is valid, or it is not valid. If it is not valid, it needs no retraction. If it is valid, it can not be retracted, any more than the dead can be brought to life....The war has certainly progressed as favorably for us, since the issue of the proclamation as before. I know as fully as one can know the opinions of others that some of the commanders of our armies in the field who have given us some of most important successes, believe the emancipation policy and the use of colored troops, constitute the heaviest blow yet dealt the rebellion, and that at least one of those important successes could not have been achieved when it was but for the aid of black soldiers....I submit these opinions as being entitled to some weight against the objections, often urged, that emancipation, and arming the blacks, are unwise as military measures, and were not adopted, as such, in good faith. You say you will not fight to free negroes. Some of them seem willing to fight for you; but no matter. Fight you then, exclusively to save the Union...

negroes, like other people act upon motives. Why should they do anything for us if we will do nothing for them? If they stake their lives for us, they must be prompted by the strongest motive--even the promise of freedom. And the promise, being made, must be kept....peace does not appear as distant as it did. I hope it will come soon, and come to stay; and so come as to worth the keeping in all future time. It will have then been proved that, among free men, there can be no successful appeal from the ballot to the bullet; and that they who take such appeal are sure to lose their case, and pay the cost. And then, there will be some black men, who can remember that, with silent tongue, and clenched teeth, and steady eye, and well-poised bayonet they have helped mankind on to this great consumation; while, I fear, there will be some white ones, unable to forget that, with malignant heart, and deceitful speech, have strove to hinder it. Still let us not be over-sanguine of a speedy final triumph. Let us be quite sober. Let us dilligently apply the means, never doubting that a just God, in his own good time, will give us the rightful result."

8/24/63

And to A. G. Hodges:

"You ask me to put in writing the substance of what I verbally said the other day, in your presence, to Governor Bramlette and Senator Dixon. It was about as follows:

"I am naturally anti-slavery. If slavery is not wrong, nothing is wrong. I can not remember when I did not so think, and feel. And yet I have never understood that the presidency conferred upon me an unrestricted right to act upon this judgment and feeling. It was in the oath I took, that I would, to the utmost of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States. I could not take the office without taking the oath. Nor was it my view that I might take an oath to get power, and break the oath in using the power. I understood too, that in ordinary civil administration this oath even forbade me to practically indulge my primary abstract judgment on the moral question of slavery. I have publically declared this many times, and in many ways. And I aver that, to this day, I have done no official act in mere deference to my abstract judgment and feeling on slavery.

I did understand however that my oath to preserve the constitution to the best of my ability, imposed upon me the duty of preserving by every indispensible means, that government--that nation--of which that constitution was the organic law. Was it possible to lose the nation, and preserve the constitution? By general law life and limb must be protected; yet often a limb must be amputated to save a life; but a life is never wisely given to save a limb. I felt that measures, otherwise unconstitutional, might become lawful, by becoming indispensible to to the preservation of the of the Constitution, through the preservation of the nation. Right or wrong, I assumed this ground, and now avow it...

When in March, and May and July 1862 I made earnest, and succcessive appeals to the border states to favor compensated emancipation, I believed the indispensable neccessity for military emancipation and arming the blacks would come, unless averted by that measure. They declined the proposition; and I was, in my best judgment, driven to the alternative of either surrendering the Union, and with it the Constitution, or of laying strong hand upon the colored element. I chose the latter. In choosing it, I hoped for greater gain than loss; but of this, I was not entirely confident. More than a year of trial now shows no loss by it in our foreign relations, none in our home popular sentiment, none in our white military force, no loss any how or any where. On the contrary, it shows a gain of quite one hundred and thirty thousand soldiers, seamen and laborers. These are palpable facts, about which there can be no cavilling. We have the men; and we could not have them without the measure.

And now let any Union man who complains of the measure, test himself by writing down in one line that he is for subduing the rebellion by force of arms; and in the next, that he is for taking these hundred and thirty thousand men from the Union side, and placing them where they would be but for the measure he condemns. If he can not face his case so stated, it is only because he can not face the truth.

I add a word which was not in the verbal conversation. In telling this tale I attempt no compliment to my own sagacity. I claim not to have controlled events, but confess plainly that events have controlled me. Now, at the end of three years struggle the Nation's condition is not what either party, or any man devised, or expected. God alone can claim it. Whither it is tending seems plain. If God now wills the removal of a great wrong, and wills also that we of the North as well as you of the South, shall pay for our complicity in that wrong, impartial history will find therein new cause to attest and revere the justice and goodness of God."

4/4/64

Quoted from "Lincoln; Speeches and Writings, 1859-65, Library of the Americas, D. Fehrenbacher, ed.

Walt

70 posted on 08/13/2003 9:16:58 AM PDT by WhiskeyPapa (Virtue is the uncontested prize.)
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To: =Intervention=
You don't show any evidence of continuing "institutional racism." All of your examples date to 1964 or before.

As I was born in 1963, I hope you will understand why I may still feel that the effects of that institutional racism may still be in effect.

I was 15 in 1978 when the Bakke matter was coming to a head and I agree that Bakke was not treated fairly...
I also believe that the greatest effect of affirmative action is to provide you with the opportunity to walk a mile in the shoes of man who may be deserving but denied an opportunity. I hope that the lasting effects of affirmative action will be to create an empathy with those who do not get a fair shake and think twice about abusing the power that you have as the majority.

A part of me wants to say that "you can dish it out but you can't take it" but I have seen minorities all over the world get mistreated so I don't think we are alone. I would certainly rather be black and in America than Kurdish and in Iraq. I try to take the position that we should be thankful for what we do have instead of complaining about what we don't but that's just me. I ask you, however...How does it feel with the tables turned...


Also, as I believe in a meritocracy, my principle concern is not what happens when one person is more qualified than another...I believe the better qualified person should win out...My concern is what happens when two persons are equally qualified but of different races...That is where I think most problems occur...



Ongoing institutional racism...I see affirmative action as damaging also because it creates dependence.... Me, I am the type of person who makes the most of any opportunity...


However, for institutional racism...racial profiling, there are some inequities in the criminal justice system...redlining as far as insurance and home loans...

There still is work to be done but I would be totally lying if I said that I am not in a better and more just society than my father or grandfather was...

However, being that we had Jim Crow laws and segregation for such a long time, I do see a need for some type of affirmative action. I would prefer, however, that it be phased out as soon as possible so that all persons have equal access and opportunity in education... I do think equal access to education is the silver bullet to so many of our social problems...




Additionally, "racism" is not the same thing as "sexism." And you also ignore the fact that division of labor among the sexes isn't necessarily a bad thing -- there were feminists who fought against the right to vote, precisely because they did not want to shoulder the duties that men do.

I am not a woman and can not speak to their issues but it is my humble opinion that women may be more content having the choice of voting or not voting... Exercising of a right is completely different from not having it...


In 2003, now that women are in the armed forces and are raped in war, I wonder if they were right...

Also, on the question of equal responsibility regarding military service, as we have an all-volunteer force, women have the choice...As long as a person understands that a responsibility to oneself and for oneself comes with choices (learned that in NCO Leadership School :-), I have to respect their choice...However, just to be fair, I would not want my daughter to be in a situation where she could be harmed without the training and technology to protect herself very well...The choice would be hers, however...



Thank you for the discussion...
71 posted on 08/13/2003 9:21:53 AM PDT by dwd1 (M. h. D. (Master of Hate and Discontent))
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To: bedolido
bump for later reading
72 posted on 08/13/2003 9:23:59 AM PDT by goodnesswins (Join the Democrat party......be a COMMIE in drag.)
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To: squidly
Lincoln clearly believed slavery was wrong and evil. Anybody who has ever made a serious study of his pre-war writings and speeches knows this.

So how come he didn't just issue the Emancipation Proclamation upon taking office, or upon the outset of the war?

Because feeling in the border states, and in the country generally wouldn't allow it. Northern workers didn't want to compete with free blacks. Also, the hundreds of thousands of patriotic Union men who answered the call to the colors didn't want what they considered a sacred effort to be sullied by the issue of freeing the slaves.

You don't seem very familiar with the history of these events.

Lincoln moved as fast as he dared on emancipation.

"Viewed from the genuine abolition ground, Mr. Lincoln seemed tardy, cold, dull and indifferent; but measuring him by the sentiment of his country, a sentiment he was bound as a statesman to consult, he was swift, zealous, radical and determined."

-- Frederick Douglass

Walt

73 posted on 08/13/2003 9:24:07 AM PDT by WhiskeyPapa (Virtue is the uncontested prize.)
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To: wasp69
In short, President Licoln attempted to free those whom he had no control over and leave those in chains that he did. But, that is a topic for another thread.

Lincoln had no Constitutional power to free slaves in states that were not in rebellion, or even areas of rebelous states that were under Federal control and where civilian law and Federal Courts were active. You should know that. The EP was a military order and could only be constitutionally applied in areas in rebellion.

Only state governments or an amendment to the Constitution could end slavery in areas loyal to the Union and Lincoln appealed to the governments of MD., KY., MO., and DE to do just that. MD. and MO. did. West Virginia was not admitted as a state (in 1863) until they ended slavery. It was a condition laid dow on thim as a requirement for admission. Lincoln also sponsored and twisted arms to get the 13th Amendment passed by Congress which required 2/3 support of both houses. He signed the bill in early 1865 and sent it to the states for ratification.

As to the EP freeing no slaves, you are wrong. As Union forces gained territory from Jan 1, 1863 (when the EP took effect) until Dec. of 1865 when the states ratified the 13th amendment, over 3 million slaves were freed under the terms of the EP, and nearly 100,000 of those freed slaves joined the Union army. Look up "Juneteenth" in Texas and tell us again that the EP freed no slaves.

74 posted on 08/13/2003 9:24:48 AM PDT by Ditto ( No trees were killed in sending this message, but billions of electrons were inconvenienced.)
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To: A_perfect_lady
Just a reference to the "Those who forget the past..." saying

I have to give that one regarding African Facilitation. Many cultures over there which demand such tribal loyalty and dehumanizes others is never going to be able to survive if they do not recognize human dignity and rights as universal.. When you are right, you are right...
75 posted on 08/13/2003 9:25:28 AM PDT by dwd1 (M. h. D. (Master of Hate and Discontent))
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To: rdb3
Lends credence to my theory that American blacks are in what I call "The Marxist Laboratory."


I concur.I havea black supervisor, former Marine, really livig the Dream, and yet , he still talks about oppression and that we Republicans lack compassion. When I quiz him on what the Democrats have done for him ,he gets flustered.
Rdb, precise analysis you did.
Dave
76 posted on 08/13/2003 9:27:00 AM PDT by gatorbait
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To: rdb3
Your point is valid that we should be defined more by what we think than what we look like...Thank you...
77 posted on 08/13/2003 9:28:21 AM PDT by dwd1 (M. h. D. (Master of Hate and Discontent))
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To: bedolido
Towards the end of our exchange, the reader admitted that he felt blacks should not have to work more than one job and do overtime to get ahead in life. Their route should be more direct. He felt long hours were for immigrants and that “we’ve already played that game.”

I've heard much the same from too many white people who'd find excuse to not work. "My father did all of this!" and "My grandfather did all of that!". Ridiculous but a common attitude.

78 posted on 08/13/2003 9:30:56 AM PDT by decimon
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To: squidly
Slaves in states that did not secede, Maryland, Kentucky, Delaware, Missouri, were not freed until passage of the 13th Amendment after Lincoln's death.

President Lincoln insisted that the 13th amendment be made a plank in the 1864 Republican Party platform. This despite the fact that it appeared for a time that he was sure to lose.

He worked hard for the 13th amendment, and it passed because he did a lot of arm twisting to get it done.

Don't forget that in that same time frame, he was urged to rescind the EP altogeher. He refused.

David Donald writes:

"As he talked to them, his impatience with the War Democrats became increasingly evident. If they really wanted the war to end without interfering with slavery, 'the field was open to them to have enlisted and put down this rebellion by force of arms long before the present policy was inaugurated'...."

"How could anybody propose 'to return to slavery the black warriors of Port Hudson and Olustee to their masters to conciliate the South? I should be damned in time and in eternity for so doing,' he told his visitors. 'The world shall know that I will keep my faith to friends and enemies, come what will'."

Walt

79 posted on 08/13/2003 9:32:33 AM PDT by WhiskeyPapa (Virtue is the uncontested prize.)
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To: A_perfect_lady
You are absolutely correct on this point...I can not tell you how much it embarasses when I see the black community demanding more of a hand out as opposed to a hand up...

There is hostility from both sides because there are no easy answers...

In Africa, I see the same thing you do...Though I wish it had not taken slavery to get us here, I have to concede that is a blessing in disguise on some levels because I am here in this free country with all the rights, privileges, and responsibilities and able to have this discussion with you.

By the way, just because there are still problems doesn't mean you and I have the total responsibility or burden of solving them.... We can contribute greatly simply by not making them worse...
80 posted on 08/13/2003 9:34:31 AM PDT by dwd1 (M. h. D. (Master of Hate and Discontent))
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To: Lazamataz
Why, whatever do you mean???

Gee, thanks. :)

The moderators seem to sending all ACW threads to the Smokey Backroom. We'll see how long this one lasts.

Walt

81 posted on 08/13/2003 9:34:49 AM PDT by WhiskeyPapa (Virtue is the uncontested prize.)
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To: no one in particular
Geez, I'm learning more about Lincoln here than i ever did in school....
82 posted on 08/13/2003 9:35:55 AM PDT by Johnbalaya
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To: Ditto
Dang, and all this time I thought they were saying Lincoln worked in frayed sleeves... I'm soo embarassed...
83 posted on 08/13/2003 9:39:15 AM PDT by Hatteras (The Thundering Herd Of Turtles ROCK!)
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To: A_perfect_lady
I also remember when my career took off and I got moved into a higher tax bracket... I started to feel like I was working for others that did not appreciate it or do anything to improve themselves... I have been told that is the price we pay to have a society where everyone should feel hope because they have a shot at the dream...whether they step up and take the shot...Hmmmm

Also, it is the generalizations that all blacks feel a certain way about all whites and all Africans feel a certain way about all other nations... Please remember that there are differences of opinion and voices of dissent and reason in every culture...
84 posted on 08/13/2003 9:41:42 AM PDT by dwd1 (M. h. D. (Master of Hate and Discontent))
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To: gatorbait
I'd just love to have a one-on-one chat with your supervisor.

85 posted on 08/13/2003 9:44:41 AM PDT by rdb3 (I'm not a complete idiot. Several parts are missing.)
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To: squidly
It's called politics. Every President from Washington to Bush has had to restrain their ideas and plans until they could make sure it was the right time to implement them, sometimes that time never comes.

Even during the debates about our Constitution, men such as Washington and Mason (both southerners) felt that slavery was a blemish upon the new nation. But both knew that the infant nation couldn't abolish the institution at that time. Both were slaveholders and realized the economic and social impacts of emancipation upon the country, slaveholders and the slaves themselves. Even though they morally believed it should be done, they both knew that the country would fall apart if it happened in 1787.

The political situation at the time required that the new nation come first and be allowed to form and grow before slavery could be addressed. Unfortunately it took a horrible war that destroyed the lives of many honorable people, North and South, before we finally addressed the issue.

In 1861 the political situation seemed to dictate that that the Union be preserved first before slavery was addressed. Remember there was a great deal of sympathy for the Southern States in parts of the North before the firing on Fort Sumter. New Jersey, Delaware, Maryland and even New York had some strong Southern sympathies until the first shots were fired. Rodman Price (former Governor of New Jersey 1854-57) was advocating that NJ become allied with the Confederacy in 1861. New Jersey was not a slave state anymore in 61 but it was one of the strongest bastions of "states rights and private property" at that time and as such, it initially sympathized with the south in it's struggle against the Federal Government.

Lincoln may have had Abolitionist views but I am sure he didn't want to be the President of a country that was falling apart in front of his eyes. He said so himself "A house divided against itself, cannot stand". If he had signed the Emancipation in 1861 when he came into office, it is possible that Delaware, Maryland, New Jersey, Kentucky and Missouri would have seceded within days or withdrawn their support for the Federal Union.
86 posted on 08/13/2003 9:51:45 AM PDT by XRdsRev
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To: wasp69
and the occupied areas of the South such as New Orleans as well.

Right?
87 posted on 08/13/2003 9:56:33 AM PDT by wardaddy
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To: XRdsRev
There was no good reason for him not to issue the EP once the war had started, yet he waited until the second fall of the war. Why is that? And why wouldn't he free the slaves in the non-secessionist states? I know the answer to the second question, and it is just more proof that he wasn't fighting the war to end slavery, as the revionist historians would have us believe.
88 posted on 08/13/2003 9:57:20 AM PDT by squidly
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To: dwd1
Look, I'm just cranky today. Forgive me.
89 posted on 08/13/2003 9:58:37 AM PDT by A_perfect_lady (Let them eat cake.)
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To: thegreatbeast
The ironic thing is, Lincoln freed almost no one. The Emancipation Proclamation, which went into effect in January, 1863, only applied to those states that were still in reberllion, and that were not under Northern control; nor did it apply to the border states where slavery existed, nor to Delaware, which still had some slaves (granted, not very many). So, you see that the Emancipation Proclamation really did nothing: it was a fraud, for all intents and purposes. The only states it was supposed to apply to were not affected by it, because they had already seceded and Lincoln had no authority over them. Slavery wasn't abolished until the passage of the 13th Amendment in 1865.
90 posted on 08/13/2003 10:01:58 AM PDT by ought-six
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To: XRdsRev
Very interesting...

I am thinking about thinking about Professor Nash who was profiled in the movie "A beautiful mind". It seems his ideas were in place back then... small adaption "We do what is best for ourselves and the nation!" This was the clash of societal principles that took a civil war to resolve...

The one thing your post also shows me.... As a society, we have survived because of our ability to recognize a problem and work for a solution that is best for the nation... Not always fair to everybody...Not always nice...Every group is not always going to be happy but we are doing the best we can... And we have been around for quite some time... Sounds like we are a nation of pragmatists....

Nice post...
91 posted on 08/13/2003 10:03:11 AM PDT by dwd1 (M. h. D. (Master of Hate and Discontent))
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To: Little Ray
"...there were many folks (North AND South) that didn't even see blacks (or Indians, or Chinese, or Irish...) as human..."

Or Germans. Especially Catholic Germans.
92 posted on 08/13/2003 10:03:38 AM PDT by ought-six
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To: dwd1
yea...that 1920 suffragtette thing is a bit of an itch...lol

...as for black males voting...no problem..lol

when we granted full rights to women, we doomed ourselves to a lengthy flirtation with modern liberalism...emotive politics.

Do I have any answers?...no....just an observation.
93 posted on 08/13/2003 10:05:37 AM PDT by wardaddy
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To: bedolido
The Emancipation Proclamation freed almost no one. See my earlier post.
94 posted on 08/13/2003 10:05:47 AM PDT by ought-six
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To: A_perfect_lady
Nothing to forgive... I served nine years and twenty days to support the right we all have to agree and disagree... I welcome a good discussion because as a nation, people need understand that you have case... Nothing will be solved if we don't talk...

Thank you for the reply...
95 posted on 08/13/2003 10:06:37 AM PDT by dwd1 (M. h. D. (Master of Hate and Discontent))
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To: rdb3
The grand effort at full black emancipation that occured from 1861-1970s was and still is a vast social effort (experiment) that does indeed entail many aspects of at a minimum socialism.

You are right.
96 posted on 08/13/2003 10:09:56 AM PDT by wardaddy
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To: wardaddy
I think you are just like the rest of us... No easy answers but you are looking every chance you get... Good to hear from you....

BTW, what part of Florida should I direct the police to search for your body in case your wife reads your post? :-)
97 posted on 08/13/2003 10:10:38 AM PDT by dwd1 (M. h. D. (Master of Hate and Discontent))
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To: wardaddy
But don't you just love those Juneteenth Celebrations?

The sad part about all of this is that until we become a true "established interest" within this country not taken for granted by the Democrats, this may well continue...
98 posted on 08/13/2003 10:13:08 AM PDT by dwd1 (M. h. D. (Master of Hate and Discontent))
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To: squidly
Of course there was good reason. The North was losing militarily in the battlegrounds of Virginia. 1st Manassas in June 1861 was a devestating defeat that threatened the Capitol itself, Balls Bluff while a small battle was another defeat that had tremendous political effect with the death of General Baker, the Penninsula Campaign ended badly, Cedar Mountain, 2nd Manassas, Chantilly...all defeats with high loss of life including publicly beloved generals. Slaves who fled to the safety of the Army in 1861-62 became a problem and a threat to already questionable military effectiveness. The Army was not prepared to handle or feed these people and it was not until the Freedman's Bureau was up and running that they could do so.

The Army of the Potomac went through 3 changes of command and was very disorganized. It was hardly a good time to make a groundbreaking change in public/military policy. The Battle of Sharpsburg and the defeat of the Maryland Invasion provided the victory needed to boost public confidence in the administration and allowed them to make the radical jump the President had wanted for a long time.
99 posted on 08/13/2003 10:13:52 AM PDT by XRdsRev
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To: dwd1
Nashville actually.

Knowing her, probably one should look for my teeth in the Insinkerator...lol

I'm not bashing the ladies but without them, I doubt we would ever have even crossed the New Deal Rubicon.

Regards.
100 posted on 08/13/2003 10:14:32 AM PDT by wardaddy
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