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Pollard release coming-hearing scheduled. (Fury alert)
JTA ^ | August 13 2003 | FinalApproach29er

Posted on 08/13/2003 9:14:43 PM PDT by Finalapproach29er

WASHINGTON, Aug. 12 (JTA) — Sept. 2, 2003 is going to be a big day for Jonathan Pollard: The American Jewish spy is going to get another day in court. Pollard´s lawyers will have 40 minutes in a federal courtroom to explain why they should be permitted to continue efforts to rescind the life sentence he received 18 years ago for committing espionage for Israel.

Years of tenacious motions by attorneys Jacques Semmelman and Eliot Lauer either have been vigorously opposed by government attorneys or allowed to languish in the court.

Now U.S. District Court Judge Thomas Hogan has granted Pollard and his attorneys — who are working on the case pro bono — a hearing.

Semmelman and Lauer will get 30 minutes to argue why they should be permitted to appeal, the government can take a half hour to respond, and then Pollard´s attorneys will be granted 10 minutes for the last word.

So pivotal is the hearing that the judge has ordered federal prison officials in Butner, N.C., to shuttle Pollard to the U.S. District Court in Washington for the event.

Prison officials said they are uncertain whether U.S. marshals would fly Pollard to the nation´s capital or drive.

"Normally, we drive them for a mere six-hour trip," a prison spokesman said, "but a high-profile prisoner like Pollard might be flown."

He added that arrangements would be made for Pollard´s kosher meals.

Despite mounds of legal briefs and well-researched citations, Pollard´s hearing boils down to two issues:

• Was the ex-naval intelligence officer convicted in March 1987 on the basis of a misleading secret 46-page affidavit?

• Was he denied due process by a defense attorney who declined to file a routine appeal after Judge Aubrey Robinson stunned Pollard and threw a crowded courtroom into pandemonium with an unexpected life sentence? The life sentence violated the prosecutor´s plea agreement to not ask for life in exchange for Pollard´s cooperation.

Then-Secretary of Defense Caspar Weinberger submitted the secret affidavit at virtually the last minute at Robinson´s personal request.

In the affidavit, Weinberger wrote: "It is difficult for me, in the so-called ‘year of the spy´ to conceive of a greater harm to national security."

The message, backed up with some 20 classified documents, was clear: Give Pollard a life sentence — regardless of the written plea agreement.

Fifteen years later, Weinberger conceded that "the Pollard matter was comparatively minor. It was made far bigger than its actual importance."

Pressed on why this was so, Weinberger replied, "I don´t know why — it just was."

Attorneys Semmelman and Lauer have been filing motion after motion to see the supposedly secret documents so they can adequately appeal.

But their efforts have been denied on the grounds of national security, even though they have been granted the necessary security clearances. Semmelman is a former U.S. attorney. The documents concern sources and methods used two decades ago, before the proliferation of personal computers.

The second question asks whether Pollard was denied due process on account of "ineffective assistance of counsel," according to the motion.

Pollard´s attorney at the time, Richard Hibey, has been widely criticized for inaction. He failed to object when prosecutors violated the plea agreement and asked for life, failed to call for an evidentiary hearing on Weinberger´s secret affidavit, and then — to the surprise of most observers — declined to file the routine notice of appeal in the 10 days allotted.

For years, Hibey has dodged all questions on his representation of Pollard.

Despite the hearing, there are few prospects for a Pollard release in the immediate future. Pollard to get a day in court in latest twist of famous spy case

By Edwin Black

Even if Semmelman and Lauer were granted the opportunity to appeal — consistently denied because Hibey failed to file the 10-day notice — it might take another year or two for any decision.

Pollard already has served far longer than the average for people convicting of spying either for enemies of the United States or it allies.


TOPICS: Extended News; Israel; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: espionage; jonathanpollard; pollard
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To: gaijin; onyx; Howlin; DPB101
Anyone who cares to not be a sheeple feel free to check out the author's bio. Or you can simply believe that everything about CIA operations is fully disclosed. Your call

John Loftus

As a Justice Department prosecutor, John Loftus once held some of the highest security clearances in the world, with special access to NATO Cosmic, CIA codeword, and Top Secret Nuclear files. As a private attorney, he works without charge to help hundreds of intelligence agents obtain lawful permission to declassify and publish the hidden secrets of our times. He is the author of four history books, three of which have been made into films, two were international best sellers, and one was nominated for the Pulitzer Prize.

21 posted on 08/14/2003 2:50:16 PM PDT by byteback
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To: byteback; onyx
Whatever....we've heard this song and dance a hundred times and not just about Pollard...same old, same old.

One good thing about it, the real conservatives can be easily sorted from the phonies by who cite Democrat party hack John Loftus as a credible source on anything.

22 posted on 08/14/2003 3:06:54 PM PDT by DPB101
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To: DPB101; byteback; onyx; dennisw; veronica; Cachelot
Yup DPB, aka Larrylied, aka Voegelin. Good to see you Lar. Personally, I don't care if Pollard rots, but I find it offensive to see a formerly banned antisemite like yourself touting your "real conservative" line (I know lar, Jews like me aren't), so I'll add the comments of another of the phonies for perspective.

-----------------------

Pollard Has Been Punished Enough

March 8, 1994 - Theodore Olson, Esq. - The Wall St. Journal

It is plain than columnist Al Hunt and the anti-Pollard faction within the Clinton administration for whom he is giving voice do not like Jonathan Pollard (“President Clinton, Don’t Free the Traitor Pollard, February 24). But his rationale for opposing clemency is mostly misinformation and ignorance, and his conclusion implicitly concedes the shallowness of his convictions.

As Mr. Pollard’s attorney, I offer these counterbalancing facts:

First, the matter of motives and money. Mr. Hunt’s carefully chosen litany of phrases such as “big bucks,” “well-paid” and “well-heeled” produces a profoundly false impression. As Mr. Hunt knows, Mr. Pollard sought out the Israelis and volunteered to give, not sell, information to Israel about nuclear, chemical and biological weapons under construction by Iraq and others for use against Israel. Six months down the line, Pollard was persuaded to accept paltry sums - pocket change compared with what Washington journalists routinely receive for weekend television appearances. Intelligence services know that it is impossible to control idealists - and it is standard procedure to corrupt them with money. Mr. Pollard was wrong to acquiesce, but everyone who has studied the record objectively knows that he acted as he did because he could not stand the implications of silence in the face of another Holocaust, not for money.

Second, Mr. Hunt repeatedly uses the term “traitor.” That word describes one who commits treason, the only crime considered so egregious that is mentioned in our Constitution. It is defined by law as committing war against the U.S. or aiding its enemies. It is punishable by death. Mr. Pollard did not commit, nor was he charged with, treason. Even the government has admitted that is use of the word “treason” and “traitor” to describe Mr. Pollard was wrong and “regrettable.” The court that reviewed Mr. Pollard’s case, whose opinion Mr. Hunt quotes, said that the “traitor” could justifiably be called “rank hyperbole.”

Third, Mr. Hunt’s comparison of Mr. Pollard to the Aldrich Ames case is appalling. Mr. Ames allegedly aided the Soviet Union when they were implacable enemies of the U.S.: Mr. Pollard helped one of our closest allies. Mr. Ames is said to have betrayed American agents: Mr. Pollard told Israel about instruments of mass destruction against Jews. Mr. Ames purportedly took millions of dollars and was motivated by greed: Mr. Pollard gave defensive information to save a people that had been nearly exterminated 50 years ago. What can Mr. Hunt be thinking?

Fourth, Mr. Hunt has mischaracterized the court decision regarding the government’s violation of the Pollard plea bargain. Mr. Pollard’s appeal was rejected as untimely, not because it was lacking in merit. All three judges who considered the appeal expressed considerable skepticism concerning the government’s conduct. One of the three went so far as to call Mr. Pollard’s treatment “a fundamental miscarriage of justice.”

The fact is that the government blatantly betrayed Mr. Pollard and its written contract with him. It made three promises, and broke them all. It agreed to represent to the sentencing judge that Mr. Pollard’s cooperation had been of “considerable value” to “enforcement of the espionage laws,” but did precisely the opposite, denigrating the value and motivation for that compensation - listing it among factors “compelling a substantial sentence.” It promised to limit its sentencing argumentation to the “facts and circumstances” of Mr. Pollard’s offense, but instead heaped savage vituperation on his motives on his motives, character and “arrogance.” Finally, it agreed not to seek a sentence of life in prison, but obtained exactly such a sentence by, among other things, demanding a sentence commensurate with the crime of treason.

Fifth, Mr. Hunt rejects as “bogus and irrelevant” the assertion that Mr. Pollard’s sentence was excessive. He could not be more wrong. Mr. Pollard has served more than eight years, mostly in solitary confinement in the nation’s harshest prison. No one who gave defense information to an ally has ever been punished so severely. The government did not even charge him with harming or having reason to know that his actions would harm the U.S. Once again, Mr. Hunt has outpaces Mr. Pollard’s prosecutors by pressing to maintain a level of punishment that the prosecutors promised not to seek.

Sixth, it is curious that Mr. Hunt thinks that the information Mr. Pollard gave away “was so sensitive that officials still insist they can’t provide specifics.” What officials? The Office of Naval Intelligence has said that much of Mr. Pollard’s information “was declassified during the Gulf War.” Mr. Pollard’s chief prosecutor has urged publicly that it all be declassified.

Finally, after all of Mr. Hunt’s rhetoric, his main grievance seems to be that Israel has failed to “come clean and acknowledge what a despicable act Pollard performed.” If it did so, he concludes, then “clemency [would] be in order.” This is an amazing conclusion because Mr. Pollard himself has admitted that what he did was wrong and has expressed great remorse for his actions. And two successive Israeli prime ministers have put in writing formal requests for mercy - not forgiveness - for the Pollard affair. The significance of these extraordinary official requests cannot have been lost on President Clinton - who, incidentally, may not be anxious to acknowledge publicly that the U.S. has spied on Israel. What more does Mr. Hunt want? Some sort of Chinese Communist public act of self-abasement?

There is more, but too little space to say it all. Defense Secretary-nominee Bobby Inman has publicly admitted that he cut off Israel from promised defensive information as retaliation for Israel’s destruction of Iraq’s nuclear reactors. (Maybe Mr. Hunt can tell us how many America soldiers would have died in the Persian Gulf had Israel not taken that action.) Mr. Pollard stepped into the breach and opened the spigot that Mr. Inman had closed. He had no right to do so, but voices as diverse as Cardinal Law, Nobel laureate Elie Wiesel, Benjamin Hooks, Father Drinan, Sen. Carol Mosely-Braun, Pat Robertson, dozens of Members of Congress, the city councils of New York, Los Angeles and Chicago, and two Israeli prime ministers have pleaded for an end to his punishment. Apparently many officials at State, Justice and the White House now agree.

The fundamental issue is when we can stop punishing a man who broke the law to expose a massive, malignant and malicious arms buildup so that a beleaguered people could defend themselves from weapons of terror and mass destruction. It might take some courage from President Clinton to do the right thing, but Mr. Pollard has been punished enough.

Theodore B. Olson is the former lead attorney for Jonathan Pollard.

Theodore B. Olsen Esq.

The document below was written by a former Pollard attorney, Theodore Olsen, to counter a 1993 NJCRAC position paper on the Pollard case. The document is as relevant today as when it was originally written. Many of the old lies that it deals with are still being circulated today by the same Jewish sources.

Mr. Lawrence Rubin
Executive Vice Chairman - NJCRAC
National Jewish Community Relations Advisory Council
443 Park Avenue South
New York New York 10016-7322

April 9, 1993

RE: Jonathan J. Pollard

Dear Mr. Rubin:

As you know, we represent Jonathan J. Pollard. We have received a copy of the Jerome Chanes NJCRAC memorandum of March 23, 1993 disseminated to NJCRAC and CJF member agencies entitled "The Pollard Case: Myths and Facts." The Chanes memorandum states that it is intended to "provide accurate information" about the "substantive issues" involved in the Pollard case. However, it contains many materially inaccurate and damaging statements concerning Mr. Pollard and his case. We therefore request that you circulate this letter as soon as possible to all of the member agencies that received the Chanes memorandum

1. Pattern of Misrepresentation

The "Myths and Facts" memorandum states that there has been an "unfortunate pattern of misrepresentation" concerning the Pollard case. This regrettable and entirely gratuitous innuendo is apparently intended to accuse Mr. Pollard's supporters of misrepresentations. It is not true. Naturally, in any highly visible case such as this involving many people working to achieve a common objective, there may be misconceptions that develop. But the Pollard supporters have made every effort to supply scrupulously accurate information concerning his case. In fact, the NJCRAC memorandum contains more errors and misleading perceptions than anything we have seen. That is why it is so important for you to correct it by distributing this response.

2. Disproportionality of sentence

Mr. Pollard's sentence of life in prison is grossly disproportionate to punishments in comparable cases. Your wholly inaccurate and distorted rejection of this fact ignores both the facts and fundamental principles of our criminal justice system.

You assert that "comparisons between Pollard's sentence and sentences meted out to others . . . are inappropriate," and that such an analysis of the proportionality of Mr. Pollard's sentence is improper as a jurisprudential matter. That, of course, is nonsense It is a fundamental principle of justice and jurisprudence that the law should treat similarly situated individuals similarly and that punishments, insofar as possible, should be relatively equal and proportionate. The fact that Mr. Pollard's sentence is completely out of scale with those imposed for comparable offenses is a highly salient consideration in his efforts to seek a commutation of his sentence.

Moreover, the Supreme court of the United States has held as a matter of constitutional "principle that a criminal sentence must be proportional to the crime for which the defendant has been convicted-" Solem V. Helm, 463 U.S. 277, 290 (1983) (emphasis added) . The Court has struck down as unconstitutional punishments that are "significantly disproportionate to [the] crime," id. at 303, based on a comparison "with sentences imposed on other criminals" Id. At 292; see also Harmelin V. Michigan, 111 S. Ct. 2680, 2702-05 (1991) (Kennedy, J., concurring) (reiterating that the constitution forbids "extreme sentences that are 'grossly disproportionate' to the crime") - It is well recognized that disproportionality in sentencing when compared to others convicted of similar crimes is "fundamentally unfair," and accordingly, it "has also been a fundamental part of . . . the clemency philosophy." Kobil, The Quality of Mercy Strained: Wrestling the Pardoning Power from the King, 69 Tex. L. R. S69, 627 (1991).*

[*NOTE: For example: President Carter commuted the 20 year sentence of Watergate conspirator G. Gordon Liddy after 4 years and 3 months because Liddy had served much more time than the other Watergate participants. Id. The reason given by the White House Counsel was that "[it] was a clear case of unfair disparity." Id. (citations omitted).]

You also argue that Mr. Pollard's sentence was not disproportionate. But that is clearly incorrect. As thoroughly documented in Mr. Pollard's commutation application, his sentence was manifestly inconsistent with the punishment historically imposed for disclosing intelligence information to an ally of the United States. Indeed, the more than seven-year period that Mr. Pollard has already served is much closer to the typical sentence for comparable offenses. The only other life sentences imposed for espionage in the United States of which we are aware -- including each of the instances cited in your memorandum -- involved individuals who spied for the Soviet Union (or Eastern block countries that were under its control) during the Cold War. We believe that Mr. Pollard is the only person in the history of our Nation to receive a life sentence for giving information to an ally.

3. The Pertinence of the Fact that Mr. Pollard Spied for a Close Ally

Your memorandum asserts that it is irrelevant that Mr. Pollard provided intelligence information to Israel, one of the United States closest allies, as opposed to a country that is hostile to the United States. That assertion is legally incorrect and morally perplexing. While it may be a crime to disclose any classified information to anyone, both the law and society recognize the difference between efforts to harm the United States by giving information to its enemies and supplying data to an ally to help save the lives of victims of aggression.

You contend that "as a legal matter, the law on espionage does not distinguish between allies and enemies. . . ." But the law, including the Constitution of the United States most certainly does make such a distinction. The most serious espionage crime is treason, which, unlike Mr. Pollard's offense, is punishable by death, and is defined explicitly in the Constitution as consisting "only in levying war against [the United States), or in adhering to their Enemies [or] giving them Aid and Comfort." (emphasis added) . The statutes on espionage also recognize that providing information to an enemy is different in kind from and more reprehensible than supplying information to a country that is an ally of the United States, explicitly singling out the former for special treatment. Compare 18 U.S.C. 794(b) and 794(a); 18 U.S.C. 2382. The law distinguishes between those whose conduct occurred with reason to believe it may harm the United States. Mr. Pollard was not charged with that offense.

Moreover, the vastly harsher sentences imposed on individuals who have committed espionage against the United States an behalf of hostile nations demonstrate the obvious and fundamental principle that spying for an enemy is a far more egregious offense that deserves more severe punishment than providing intelligence data to an ally. As discussed above, life sentence have historically been reserved exclusively for individuals who have spied for countries that are hostile to the United States, while persons who, like Mr. Pollard, assisted allies have been subjected to far less severe punishments that more closely approximate the time that Mr. Pollard has already served in prison.

Your memorandum also misleadingly suggests that Mr. Pollard's reliance on the hostile nation/ally dichotomy is an attempt by him to excuse or justify his conduct. But that is not Mr. Pollard's point at all. Mr. Pollard acknowledges that he violated an important law of the United States. He pleaded guilty to that offense and agreed to cooperate fully with the government's investigation of his conduct. He has repeatedly expressed regret and remorse for his conduct and for any and all harm that his offense may have caused. Mr. Pollard is not arguing that his unlawful conduct in justified because he was motivated only by a desire to save lives.

But those who ask for an humanitarian commutation of Mr. Pollard's sentence to a severe punishment equivalent to the punishment already imposed are surely entitled to emphasize that Mr. Pollard's actions, admittedly wrong, was inspired by the desire to protect against violent aggression, to prevent a holocaust and to allow the people of Israel to defend themselves. This is a legitimate and important basis for the sentence commutation being sought from President Clinton.

4. Conditions of Incarceration

The fact that Mr. Pollard has been in solitary confinement for several years is not a "myth." And it is not a "myth" that Mr. Pollard has been incarcerated in the nation's harshest maximum security prison. Mr. Pollard did not ask to be placed in Marion prison -- where security measures are necessary to protect him from anti-Semitic prison gangs. Moreover, NJCRAC should understand that it is exceedingly difficult for Mr. Pollard to chronicle his specific, day-to-day prison experiences without exposing himself to repercussions. It should be obvious to anyone that solitary confinement in a prison containing the most violent and vicious criminals in the nation is not a circumstance that should be ignored or labeled as a "myth."

5. Parole

As a technical matter, Mr. Pollard was not sentenced to "life without possibility of parole," and parole may legally be considered in 1995. But your implication that the possibility of parole makes commutation unnecessary - is incorrect and misguided. The law enforcement and intelligence agency officials who will be given the opportunity to express themselves on the subject have indicated that they will oppose parole. Immediately following sentencing, the U.S. Attorney said that Mr. Pollard would "never see the light of day." Parole is a virtual impossibility under these circumstances. Your emphasis on the highly unlikely theoretical possibility of parole avoids addressing the circumstances and fairness of Mr. Pollard's incarceration. The fact is that he has been punished enough already.

6. The Government's Breach of the Plea Agreement

You agree in your memorandum that there are "legitimate questions" regarding the government's conduct at the time of sentencing in conjunction with its plea bargain.

However, you selectively omit a full discussion of the issue and the pertinence of it to Mr. Pollard's request for a commutation of his sentence.

The fact is that the government violated its plea bargain with Mr. Pollard in several fundamental respects. Nearly everyone who has examined the circumstances agrees with that conclusion. Indeed, this situation was severely questioned by the federal appellate court that reviewed Mr. Pollard's sentence. Despite the government's agreement in exchange for Mr. Pollard's plea of guilty to temper its rhetoric at the tide of sentencing, not to seek a life sentence, and to point out that Pollard's cooperation with the government had been valuable, the United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit found that the government had engaged in "hard-nosed dealings," Pollard v. United States, 939 F.2d 10110, 1030, cert. denied, 113 S. Ct. 322 (1992), and that the government's conduct was "problematic" and "troublesome." Id. at 1026. Dissenting Judge Stephen Williams concluded that the government violated material terms of Mr. Pollard's plea agreement, resulting in a "fundamental miscarriage of justice." Id. at 1032. And the government's forceful, bitter and antagonistic rhetoric produced the very life sentence it had agreed not to seek. Although the courts declined for technical reasons to set aside Mr. Pollard's sentence, there are no such constraints on the President's constitutional power to commute Mr. Pollard's sentence and thereby to redress the injustice of a sentence of life in prison despite the government's promise not to seek such a sentence.

NJCRAC's characterization of the facts is revealing. It says that Pollard's claim of a government breach of the plea bargain is "not entirely a myth". This is a very peculiar choice of words to describe an audacious, deliberate and manifest injustice.

7. The Secretary of Defense's Submission of a Memoranda During the Sentencing Process and Use of the Word "Treason"

Your brief discussion of the memoranda submitted by Secretary of Defense Caspar Weinberger during the sentencing proceedings and your astonishing efforts to rationalize Secretary Weinberger's use of the word "treason" to describe Mr. Pollard's conduct overlooks completely the improper nature and devastating impact that that submission had on Mr. Pollard's case.

The Secretary of Defense was not "obliged to submit a pre-sentencing memorandum." No law or custom requires it. It was an entirely gratuitous and intentionally forceful symbolic act by the nation's highest national security official.

The Secretary of Defense's memoranda did not relay objective facts about possible damage to national security caused by Mr. Pollard. Rather, the Secretary went to extraordinary and unprecedented lengths to volunteer extremely prejudicial and unjustified statements unjustified statements of opinion such as Pollard's "loyalty to Israel transcended his loyalty to the United States," and "the punishment imposed should reflect the perfidy of [his] actions (and) the magnitude of the treason committed," (emphasis added).

Judge Williams found that these statements amounted to a call for a life sentence in "all but name", and constituted a "flagrant violation of the (plea) agreement's spirit . . . . [T]he repeated use of superlatives implied an appeal for the maximum (sentence). Weinberger's reference to treason took the point further. Whereas treason carries the death penalty, and involves aiding the nation's enemies, Pollard was charged with espionage, carrying a maximum of life imprisonment and encompassing aid even to friendly nations - here, Israel . . . Weinberger's subtext was that the heaviest possible sentence was the lightest that was just."

Mr. Pollard did not commit treason, was not accused of treason and did not plead guilty to treason, and even the Government has now acknowledged that use of that terminology was both unwarranted and "regrettable". In fact, Mr. Pollard pleaded guilty to one count of violating 1a U.S.C. S 794, the transmission of national security information to a foreign government. Mr. Pollard's conviction was not even based upon that portion of # 794 that is predicated on an intent or reason to believe that harm to the United States would result from his conduct.

The Chanes memorandum's explanation that Secretary Weinberger was not using the word "treason" in its "formal and legal sense", is nothing short of outrageous. The Secretary was one of the nation's top officials, filing a formal legal document in the name of the United States under the supervision of the United States Attorney in a formal and extremely serious legal proceeding in a proceeding in a case that he, himself, characterized as very important. The word "treason" was intentionally used, as evidenced by the simultaneous use of the term "traitorously" by the Assistant United States Attorney. The assertion that the Secretary and the Government did not know the meaning of the word "treason" in that context is absurd. It was intended to secure a life sentence for Jonathan Pollard and it worked.

We will not comment an the remainder of the memorandum or the NJCRAC process. Those are matters for NJCRAC and its CJF member agencies. However, we do expect that NJCRAC will feel obliged to disseminate only accurate information concerning the Pollard case in the future.

In sum, your March 23 memorandum does not "provide accurate information" about the Pollard case. Rather, it either inaccurately portrays or omits entirely facts that we believe are vitally important and that would be of great interest to the NJCRAC and CJF member agencies. Your memorandum does not even mention that the government of Israel has specifically requested the President to grant Mr. Pollard's request for commutation. Such omissions seriously call into question the objectivity of your "fact-finding" efforts.

Very truly yours,
signed
Theodore B. Olsen

23 posted on 08/14/2003 3:37:26 PM PDT by SJackson
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To: SJackson; Howlin; Miss Marple; onyx
So what? My point is there are Democrats out there using Pollard to tear down Bush. That is all I care about. Olson wants him out, fine with me. Bush wants his release, OK by me. Loftus and his fellow Democrats run around the country pushing the line the Bush family is tied to Adolf Hilter, that is not OK with me.

A stupid move on the part of Loftus really. One doesn't get a hearing with the person who can grant a pardon by giving speeches claiming his family is filled with Nazis and he is in some nefarious deals with the Saudis.

24 posted on 08/14/2003 3:45:25 PM PDT by DPB101
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To: DPB101
So what? My point is there are Democrats out there using Pollard to tear down Bush. That is all I care about. Olson wants him out, fine with me. Bush wants his release, OK by me. Loftus and his fellow Democrats run around the country pushing the line the Bush family is tied to Adolf Hilter, that is not OK with me.

No it isn't Larry, your point was to bash another poster for posting a pro-Pollard point of view.

It's your well known style, Mr Lied.

Might come back later, I post to sludge like you at my convenience, no disrespect to those you've pinged Vogie.

25 posted on 08/14/2003 3:49:52 PM PDT by SJackson
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To: Finalapproach29er
Pollard already has served far longer than the average for people convicting of spying either for enemies of the United States or it allies.

I find that statement disturbing. Spies shouldn't be paroled after five years. If this "statistic" exists because of exchanges, then ok.

26 posted on 08/14/2003 3:54:39 PM PDT by squidly
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To: Joe Boucher
To this day, Israel is selling cutting edge radar to the Chinese, in addition to a whole bunch of other stuff.

At one point, we had to step in and forbid/cancel a done deal that an Israeli defense company had with the PLA.

Israel is NOT an ally in the same way Britain is. Israel is all about Israel, and would step over our dead body to maintain that status.
27 posted on 08/14/2003 3:55:11 PM PDT by RinaseaofDs
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To: Doctor Stochastic
According to what I read about the case, Pollard gave information to Israel about US spies in Russia

Nope. That was another guy. Hansen, I think. But it is a commonly used canard - Canadian communist scribbler Eric Margolis, for example, has spread this lie far and wide (and on purpose, I might add).

28 posted on 08/14/2003 4:08:01 PM PDT by Cachelot (~ In waters near you ~)
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To: DPB101
My point is there are Democrats out there using Pollard to tear down Bush

Your point, Mr. Lied, is that even the troglodytes on LibertyForum are getting bored with you. You're not enough of a turd way rabble-rouser for them, with your dislike of communists. So you got smacked around a bit, and one day in May we can see your "Voegelin" postings slow down to a measly trickle and you're back under a new name, building up your old coterie of hangers-on.

Does that seem about right, Larry?

29 posted on 08/14/2003 4:12:53 PM PDT by Cachelot (~ In waters near you ~)
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To: byteback
I clicked on your link, and read what was there:

John's Luftus Latest Projects:

Pipeline of Hatred: Presentation of interest about Anti-Semitism

30 posted on 08/14/2003 4:28:28 PM PDT by gaijin
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To: DPB101
I hope Pollard gets sprung from prison the day Mel's movie comes out next Easter. This will blow your beanie right off your head, Larry.
31 posted on 08/14/2003 4:37:50 PM PDT by dennisw (G_d is at war with Amalek for all generations)
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To: gaijin
link to the story I posted

Obviously Loftus is Pro Israel and he's using "soft" facts but he's not a raving lunatic conspiracy nut. His credentials are solid and he's trying to put pieces together and is probably right some but not all of the time. It's interesting stuff though. While I do not believe the War for Oil crys I believe that it is too important to not have played a role in our foreign policy over the last century.

32 posted on 08/14/2003 4:38:12 PM PDT by byteback
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To: byteback
bttttttttt
33 posted on 08/14/2003 5:02:14 PM PDT by dennisw (G_d is at war with Amalek for all generations)
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To: onyx
Loose lips sink ships! I wouldn't trust you with my mother's speghetti sauce recipe!

Ah, Onyx! I've wondered why you suddenly reappeared a while back. And here I see you've joined the "LarryLied tagteam". Larry, who also seems to have reappeared a while back ;).

34 posted on 08/14/2003 5:08:34 PM PDT by Cachelot (~ In waters near you ~)
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To: Finalapproach29er
"but a high-profile prisoner like Pollard might be flown."

Hmmmm? I hate to say this, but this would make a perfect target for terrorism.
35 posted on 08/14/2003 6:29:43 PM PDT by CyberAnt ( America - "The Greatest Nation on the Face of the Earth")
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To: Cachelot
LarryLied tagteam

Ugly thought.

36 posted on 08/14/2003 6:53:02 PM PDT by SJackson
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To: SJackson
Ugly thought.

Yes, isn't it? Although a few of those sucked in may not be aware that DBP101 is LarryLied yet. In any case, I'm taking names and watching the proceedings ;).

37 posted on 08/14/2003 7:12:20 PM PDT by Cachelot (~ In waters near you ~)
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To: Cachelot
Yes, isn't it? Although a few of those sucked in may not be aware that DBP101 is LarryLied yet. In any case, I'm taking names and watching the proceedings ;).

Hmm, sucked in.

I can’t put my finger on the thread (probably pulled anyway), but I seem to remember a discussion with none other than Cachelot and a member of management where we learned that LL couldn’t be a bigot because he, in fact turned in white supremacists to FR. Had to be from Frmail, recruiting activities, because you didn’t need him to identify public posts. Do you remember that thread?

BTW, wrong thread, but backscratchers for cows is nuts. What's going on over there.

38 posted on 08/14/2003 8:02:21 PM PDT by SJackson
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To: RinaseaofDs
Israel is NOT an ally in the same way Britain is. Israel is all about Israel, and would step over our dead body to maintain that status.

I will second that! One of my best friends for years feels the same way you do and she is Jewish. She doesn't consider Israel anymore her home than I do -- has religious significance for both of us as the land does for a lot of religions, but that is it. She thinks Pollard should stay in jail and throw away the key for being a spy!

Don't get it -- why would anyone support someone spying on the United States regardless of what Country they were spying for. An American spying should be locked up forever IMHO!

39 posted on 08/14/2003 8:08:39 PM PDT by PhiKapMom (VOTE FOR ARNOLD -- GOP's Best Chance to Tank Hillary for 2004 and beyond!)
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To: SJackson
management where we learned that LL couldn’t be a bigot because he, in fact turned in white supremacists to FR

Rings all kinds of bells. In fact, LarryLied wasn't banned before he overtly started bringing in his cohorts from Stormfront, and then only after A: being horribly blatant about it, and B: the howl of protest from the non-slime-dripping section of FR got to the point where it would obviously be damaging.

but backscratchers for cows is nuts.

I know. Stupid cows. They should make auto-backscratchers for people instead. In fact, I think I'll go do a patent search.

40 posted on 08/14/2003 8:10:25 PM PDT by Cachelot (~ In waters near you ~)
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