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Free State Project hits crucial 5,000 member mark
http://freestateproject.org

Posted on 08/15/2003 7:53:21 PM PDT by Dada Orwell

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1 posted on 08/15/2003 7:53:21 PM PDT by Dada Orwell
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To: Dada Orwell
Wow! I sure hope they actually attempt this. What an endless source of comic relief!
2 posted on 08/15/2003 7:55:14 PM PDT by Petronski (I'm not always cranky.)
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To: Dada Orwell
VT: too gay (& muddy in spring)
NH: a possibility
ME: another possibility, though weather gets rough
MT: already solid conservative Republican. Why?
ND: yaheydere. Brrrr. No.
SD: same as above plus loopy residents like Dashole.
WY: same as MT.
ID: same as above.
AK: serious Northern Exposure & møøse.
DE: flat boring, but has George Thoroughgood & the coast.

I think it will come down to New Hampshire, Maine & Deleware and which of those three can only 20,000 people make a difference. Maine has 2 RINO senators, Delaware has 2 'Rat senators where they could have an effect. Would the strategy be for them to evenly disperse or to take over a particular town? What if these people leave swing states causing them to then swing over to 'Rat? The logic escapes me.

3 posted on 08/15/2003 8:33:14 PM PDT by Xthe17th (FREE THE STATES. Repeal the 17th amendment!)
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To: Xthe17th
Maine is fast becoming the socialist/communist capitol from hell
Business/workers leaving at an alarming rate...
Welfare idiots from NY, NJ, MA, RI and plenty of other states moving in...
Not a place one wants to move to at this point in history...
4 posted on 08/15/2003 8:47:46 PM PDT by spartan68
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To: Xthe17th
I would take Deleware. Nice place to live and it would drive Joe Biden nuts, he would have start copying Ayn Rand speeches and start delivering them. That would be worth the moving expenses.
5 posted on 08/15/2003 9:24:03 PM PDT by Patrick1
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To: spartan68
I believe Maine is already being taken over by Somalis who breed faster than even the lustiest FreeStaters.
6 posted on 08/15/2003 9:53:08 PM PDT by Malesherbes
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To: Patrick1
I'd be very surprised if they swayed DE. Because of the low property taxes (but graduated income taxes), it attracts lots of low-income people from PA and NJ (especially Philly). The area north of the C&D is becoming seriously leftist (they call the area south of the C&D canal "Slower Delaware"--and yes, it's a highly derogatory term--city mouse vs. country mouse).
7 posted on 08/15/2003 10:04:58 PM PDT by Windcatcher
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To: Xthe17th
Would the strategy be for them to evenly disperse or to take over a particular town? What if these people leave swing states causing them to then swing over to 'Rat? The logic escapes me.

Good questions. For the first, they should try to concentrate in a particular area. Maybe not the same town, but perhaps the same county or the same state legislator district so they can at least get somebody elected. For the second, most of the people who sign up for this thing are libertarians and libertarian anarchists who seldom if ever vote Republican to begin with. So we won't be losing any votes by their departure. By contrast, if they do settle in a marginally 'rat state they may provide the electorate with a sizable enough minority to swing what would have otherwise been a two-way contest. In short, I don't think it will hurt anything and it does stand a good chance of picking up a couple of smaller offices with right wing conservative and libertarian candidates if they consolidate - small town mayors, city councils, state legislators, county commissioners and the sort.

8 posted on 08/15/2003 10:20:50 PM PDT by GOPcapitalist
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To: Dada Orwell
They will need more than 20,000

DE:

Albert Gore Jr. 180,068 54.96%

George W. Bush 137,288 41.90%

Ralph Nader 8,307 2.54%

VT:

Albert Gore Jr. 149,022 50.63%

George W. Bush 119,775 40.70%

Ralph Nader 20,374 6.92%

ME:

Albert Gore Jr. 319,951 49.09%

George W. Bush 286,616 43.97%

Ralph Nader 37,127 5.70%

20,000 Won't even be enough to cancel out the radical greens' vote in VT and ME.

9 posted on 08/16/2003 1:09:04 AM PDT by rmmcdaniell
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To: GOPcapitalist
In short, I don't think it will hurt anything and it does stand a good chance of picking up a couple of smaller offices with right wing conservative and libertarian candidates if they consolidate - small town mayors, city councils, state legislators, county commissioners and the sort.

There is another thing to consider, low population states are generally low population for a reason: not too many jobs.

How many of these free staters would actually move when the time came? They would have to give up careers, friends, and location-dependant hobbies. I think many would reconsider when faced with making all these sacrifices all for the sake of some lower offices. To actually turn a state into a conservative bastion and make it worth their effort they'll need a hell of alot more than 20,000. See post #9

10 posted on 08/16/2003 1:18:56 AM PDT by rmmcdaniell
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To: archy
ping
11 posted on 08/16/2003 5:57:36 PM PDT by jmc813 (Check out the FR Big Brother 4 thread! http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/943368/posts)
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To: rmmcdaniell
Official Totals for Wyoming: Gore 60,481 Bush 147,947.

20,000 is 1/10 of the total voters in the state.

12 posted on 08/17/2003 12:50:20 PM PDT by Jack Black
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To: rmmcdaniell
The Free State Project's goal is NOT to create a 'conservative' bastion - you must misunderstand what liberty and freedom really mean if you equate these to conservatism. The only issues that conservatives might agree with are free market economics and deregulation, possibly 2nd Amendment rights also... Conservatives tend to abhor the possibility of actual civil freedoms like : no drug laws, legalized prostitution, gay-anything, and so on... I do not expect a whole lot of conservatives wanting to go anywhere near the Free State. The same can be said of Democrats: in their wildest nightmares could just the thought of abolishing public schools, welfare, Affirmative Action, and the host of other 'do-good' government programs they support. The thought of giving people their money back and letting charities and private organizations take care of the so-called 'poor' or indigent gives them the creeps - because then they don't have control of the funds to direct it to their pet programs...

BTW: The 20,000 are not exactly your 'normal' people - the idea is that these are activists who would discuss/debate... get publicity for... and show the reason and logic of libertarian ideas - by doing so they are expected to multiply the 'voting' libertarians...

13 posted on 08/17/2003 4:01:44 PM PDT by Leopard
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To: Xthe17th
already solid conservative Republican. Why?

The FSP is not about winning a state for Republicans, it is about winning a state for libertarians.

14 posted on 08/17/2003 4:03:30 PM PDT by xm177e2 (Stalinists, Maoists, Ba'athists, Pacifists: Why are they always on the same side?)
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To: AAABEST; A.J.Armitage; archy; Beck_isright; claidheamh mor; Cathryn Crawford; EBUCK; Esjay; ...
Porcupine list ping!

-archy-/-

15 posted on 08/18/2003 12:01:12 PM PDT by archy (Keep in mind that the milk of human kindness comes from a beast that is both cannibal and a vampire.)
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To: Jack Black
Official Totals for Wyoming: Gore 60,481 Bush 147,947.

20,000 is 1/10 of the total voters in the state.

See also the following article regarding Wyoming redistricting.

Census Bureau Delivers Wyoming's Census 2000 Population Totals for Legislative Redistricting; First Race and Hispanic Data

The U.S. Census Bureau today delivered to Gov. Jim Geringer and the majority and minority leaders of the state legislature the official Census 2000 Redistricting Data Summary File for Wyoming that, under Public Law 94-171, could be used to redraw federal, state and local legislative districts.

The census data allow state officials to realign congressional and state legislative districts in their states, taking into account population shifts since the last census (in 1990) and assuring equal representation for their constituents in compliance with the "one-person, one-vote" principle of the 1965 Voting Rights Act. These data also are the first population counts for small areas and the first race and Hispanic-origin data from Census 2000.

The redistricting file consists of four detailed tables: the first shows the population for each of 63 single and multiple race categories; the second shows the total Hispanic or Latino population and the population not of Hispanic or Latino origin cross-tabulated by the 63 race categories. These tabulations are repeated in the third and fourth tables for the population 18 years and over. The data are for the resident population of the United States. (To access the detailed data, go to http://factfinder.census.gov).


16 posted on 08/18/2003 12:06:38 PM PDT by archy (Keep in mind that the milk of human kindness comes from a beast that is both cannibal and a vampire.)
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To: Dada Orwell; Kevin Curry

Psychologists will have a field day explaining their penchant of imposing their toleration of evil upon each other. "I'm personally not involved in ____(fill in an evil here)____, but will be glad to move next door to you in order to impose my toleration and non-judgmentalism upon you."

17 posted on 08/18/2003 12:07:10 PM PDT by Cultural Jihad
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To: rmmcdaniell
20,000 Won't even be enough to cancel out the radical greens' vote in VT and ME.

Concur. That's one reason why Wyoming and Montana are thought of as more likely choices among the first 5000 signed-on Porcupines in the West, and why New Hampshire is generally the most preferred location of those on the Eastern Seaboard.

I think, however, that the first 20K will be but the tip of the wedge. Once others find out that they're not alone and that there is hope for them and their political beliefs elsewhere, I expect a good many leaving the failed pismire ant-people warrens in California and elsewhere will give it a go, signed on as pledged FSP members or not. We shall see, and fairly soon.

Back when we had less than a thousand pledged FSPers, I was considered to be overly optimistic by suggesting that the vote for *which state* would take place before this Halloween. My bet is that it'll take us about as long to garner the next 15 K as it did to get the first 5000. After that, deponent guesseth not.

-archy-/-

18 posted on 08/18/2003 12:14:01 PM PDT by archy (Keep in mind that the milk of human kindness comes from a beast that is both cannibal and a vampire.)
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To: rmmcdaniell
There is another thing to consider, low population states are generally low population for a reason: not too many jobs.

You don't understand who these people are. They are Job Creators, Innovators, Entrepreneurs, Hard Workers and aparently well off enough to pick up and move confidently. Whichever state is chosen it will be very fortunate to recieve some of the best, brightest and most determined this country has to offer.

19 posted on 08/18/2003 12:21:10 PM PDT by EBUCK (FIRE!....rounds downrange! http://www.azfire.org)
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To: archy
Thanks for the ping! Congrats!
20 posted on 08/18/2003 12:22:31 PM PDT by EBUCK (FIRE!....rounds downrange! http://www.azfire.org)
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To: GOPcapitalist
For the first, they should try to concentrate in a particular area. Maybe not the same town, but perhaps the same county or the same state legislator district so they can at least get somebody elected. For the second, most of the people who sign up for this thing are libertarians and libertarian anarchists who seldom if ever vote Republican to begin with.

You're half-right about concentrating on particular districts, but we're also attempting to avoid having all our porcupine eggs in one basket. As many as a quarter of those relocating are expected to head for the goal state's capital city, where they'll become the core of the eventual political party to evolve from the FSP migration- the FSP is NOT going to assume that role, avoiding alienation of existing long-term residents similarly inclined. We want to work with them and enhance their previous efforts, Not *show them how to do it*. THEY are the experts....

On the other hand, in at least three of the potential goal states, research has been done into previous elections and potentially winnable electoral districts, particularly in the Representative seats [this was a real easy project in Wyoming!] Whether one or none of those states is chosen for the initial effort, that research will NOT be abandoned simply because efforts will be directed elsewhere initially. Their time will come.

21 posted on 08/18/2003 12:27:18 PM PDT by archy (Keep in mind that the milk of human kindness comes from a beast that is both cannibal and a vampire.)
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To: Xthe17th
They need to get an "Independents' Day" movement going.
Get all the swings to vote for a non-descriptive Independent for every office. That will get the ball rolling in other states, and could crumble the two-party system in less than two voting cycles.
22 posted on 08/18/2003 12:28:30 PM PDT by mabelkitty
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To: Jack Black
Official Totals for Wyoming: Gore 60,481 Bush 147,947.

20,000 is 1/10 of the total voters in the state.

It gets even better broken down by Wyoming counties.

23 posted on 08/18/2003 12:29:46 PM PDT by archy (Keep in mind that the milk of human kindness comes from a beast that is both cannibal and a vampire.)
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To: mabelkitty
There are a lot of folks around the country (and I mean a lot of folks) that will never "come around". The two parties will continue hand in hand to become more socialist regardless of what one state does.
24 posted on 08/18/2003 12:31:02 PM PDT by EBUCK (FIRE!....rounds downrange! http://www.azfire.org)
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To: mabelkitty
They need to get an "Independents' Day" movement going.
Get all the swings to vote for a non-descriptive Independent for every office.

Pretty close. Actually, the likely chosen tactic is also going to include removal of incumbents of either party, via a *None of the Above* vote for porcupine- or other- candidates. But in any event, there'll be no easy no-opponent races for party hacks.

-archy-/-

25 posted on 08/18/2003 12:32:55 PM PDT by archy (Keep in mind that the milk of human kindness comes from a beast that is both cannibal and a vampire.)
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To: archy
But in any event, there'll be no easy no-opponent races for party hacks.

The mainstay of local politics...the no-contest election. That's gonna really hurt....lol, I love it.

26 posted on 08/18/2003 12:35:53 PM PDT by EBUCK (FIRE!....rounds downrange! http://www.azfire.org)
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To: EBUCK
There are a lot of folks around the country (and I mean a lot of folks) that will never "come around". The two parties will continue hand in hand to become more socialist regardless of what one state does.

Yep. And the political, economic and social data collected in the consideration of which state to launch the initial FSP efforts is not being round-filed, but updated and reworked, as the overflow from the first effort makes a second and third possible, then more to follow in the successes of the first, and maybe others. Setbacks, sure, we expect 'em, but don't expect the FSP efforts elswehere to come to a halt just because they're initially focused in one location. If the porcupine hadn't been chosen as our symbol/mascot, I believe I'd have held out for Kudzu.

-archy-/-

27 posted on 08/18/2003 12:38:36 PM PDT by archy (Keep in mind that the milk of human kindness comes from a beast that is both cannibal and a vampire.)
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To: EBUCK
The mainstay of local politics...the no-contest election. That's gonna really hurt....lol, I love it.

...an incumbant in every pot...with the heat turned up!

-archy-/-

28 posted on 08/18/2003 12:40:02 PM PDT by archy (Keep in mind that the milk of human kindness comes from a beast that is both cannibal and a vampire.)
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To: archy
I don't mean setbacks I mean that there will never be a "Free Country". There are too many that like the way things work and short of sterilizing all of them.....I'll have to be happy to move to one (of the future few) Free States.
29 posted on 08/18/2003 12:44:33 PM PDT by EBUCK (FIRE!....rounds downrange! http://www.azfire.org)
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To: archy
And no froggy cookin either, drop em in boiling water so that I may hear the screams and watch the struggling....
30 posted on 08/18/2003 12:46:32 PM PDT by EBUCK (FIRE!....rounds downrange! http://www.azfire.org)
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To: EBUCK; archy

can you add me to the porqupine list?

My vote is for either MT, WY or NH. I am planning to hit the western 2 States next spring, I only wish I could go before I vote.

31 posted on 08/18/2003 12:48:20 PM PDT by bc2 (http://www.thinkforyourself.us)
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To: rmmcdaniell
How many of these free staters would actually move when the time came? They would have to give up careers, friends, and location-dependant hobbies. I think many would reconsider when faced with making all these sacrifices all for the sake of some lower offices. To actually turn a state into a conservative bastion and make it worth their effort they'll need a hell of alot more than 20,000. See post #9

Perhaps you do not understand what a *pledged* porcupine is. I gave my word that I would do so, altering if not quite *giving up* career, friends and location dependent hobbies [and I HATE the idea that none of the viable choices were in the American South, but the numbers spoke for themselves. Someday....]

Neither am I teerribly happy about some of the Eastern locations, though events have turned my opinion around on two or three of the possible eastern choices, tythough I've made no secret that I favour a Western move, or possibly, Alaska, where I've previously resided, but where our initial effort will take longer.

So we shall see. But I gave my word and I'll keep it, and from what I've seen, most of my fellow porcupines are at least as serious about their intentions as I am.

-archy-/-

I hereby state my solemn intent to move to a state of the United States designated by vote of Free State Project (FSP) participants as specified in the Participation Guidelines of the FSP. Once this move occurs, I will exert the fullest practical effort toward the creation of a society in which the maximum role of civil government is the protection of life, liberty, and property. I have read and understood the Participation Guidelines of the FSP and agree to be bound by them.

32 posted on 08/18/2003 12:50:17 PM PDT by archy (Keep in mind that the milk of human kindness comes from a beast that is both cannibal and a vampire.)
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To: Petronski
Wow! I sure hope they actually attempt this. What an endless source of comic relief!

5,000 out of a country of 300 million. They should get a salute on Hee Haw.

33 posted on 08/18/2003 12:50:57 PM PDT by Moonman62
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To: bc2
can you add me to the porqupine list? Glad to, and welcome.

My vote is for either MT, WY or NH. I am planning to hit the western 2 States next spring, I only wish I could go before I vote.

Agreed, though my granddad's Homestead Act plot is in Wyoming, making that an easy choice for me, and one to which I should be able to relocate to within 30 days of the announcement IF it's the one chosen. I could handle South Dakota or Montana about as well, having been peromised work and housing there if either of them are picked.

But whichever place, one way or another: see ya in the Free State, pal!

-archy-/-

34 posted on 08/18/2003 12:55:05 PM PDT by archy (Keep in mind that the milk of human kindness comes from a beast that is both cannibal and a vampire.)
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To: EBUCK
I don't mean setbacks I mean that there will never be a "Free Country". There are too many that like the way things work and short of sterilizing all of them.....I'll have to be happy to move to one (of the future few) Free States.

As things are now going, and with the point of view we have now, I'd reluctantly have to agree with you that the future could be as bleak as you suggest.

But then too, few in the late 1980s or early 1990 foresaw the coming breakup of the Soviet Union, either. Things, and situations change, sometimes beyond the ability to easily see it coming. And I'd rather be among 20,000 others similarly inclined than in one of the liberal anthills when the lights go out.

35 posted on 08/18/2003 1:03:56 PM PDT by archy (Keep in mind that the milk of human kindness comes from a beast that is both cannibal and a vampire.)
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To: EBUCK
You don't understand who these people are. They are Job Creators, Innovators, Entrepreneurs, Hard Workers and aparently well off enough to pick up and move confidently.

As well as 20,000 more consumers and customers, very probably followed by others travelling in their footsteps.

36 posted on 08/18/2003 1:06:04 PM PDT by archy (Keep in mind that the milk of human kindness comes from a beast that is both cannibal and a vampire.)
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To: archy
But then too, few in the late 1980s or early 1990 foresaw the coming breakup of the Soviet Union, either. Things, and situations change, sometimes beyond the ability to easily see it coming.

Actually economists predicted the collapse of the Soviet Union after it stopped it's expansion, knowing that sooner or later the system would by design overload itself....

And I'd rather be among 20,000 others similarly inclined than in one of the liberal anthills when the lights go out.

Fully agreed my friend, better by a mile. The problem is that when the lights go out (not "if") there are going to be hordes of refugees flooding the still quite sucessfull FreeState(s)....

37 posted on 08/18/2003 1:16:42 PM PDT by EBUCK (FIRE!....rounds downrange! http://www.azfire.org)
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To: archy
As well as 20,000 more consumers and customers, very probably followed by others travelling in their footsteps.

Exactly! The people prepared to move are not doped up losers. They are wealth creators, if it were otherwise they wouldn't want to move to somewhere where the gub safety net will be promptly pulled from beneath them.

38 posted on 08/18/2003 1:18:46 PM PDT by EBUCK (FIRE!....rounds downrange! http://www.azfire.org)
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To: EBUCK
And no froggy cookin either, drop em in boiling water so that I may hear the screams and watch the struggling....

Actually, I expect to hear squeals more like those of angry piglets. But either way, I think a few are going to find themselves in politically boiling waters much sooner than they'd like.

39 posted on 08/18/2003 1:23:53 PM PDT by archy (Keep in mind that the milk of human kindness comes from a beast that is both cannibal and a vampire.)
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To: EBUCK
Exactly! The people prepared to move are not doped up losers. They are wealth creators, if it were otherwise they wouldn't want to move to somewhere where the gub safety net will be promptly pulled from beneath them.

I've been impressed by the enthusiusm, practicality and maturity I've heard from many of the Porcupines of college age, and I've also noted a particularly high number of military veterans among the older ones, as I am- and including a sizable number of experienced combat arms officers. That makes for a real interesting mix....

40 posted on 08/18/2003 1:27:41 PM PDT by archy (Keep in mind that the milk of human kindness comes from a beast that is both cannibal and a vampire.)
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To: archy
I've been banging my head against the 2party wall for years (as all of us have) so I understand where the enthusiasm comes from. And I think that veterans (including me) yern for the sense of fairness and honor that used to be everywhere in our daily military lives. Something that we'll never get inside the current system no matter how hard we try.
41 posted on 08/18/2003 1:34:01 PM PDT by EBUCK (FIRE!....rounds downrange! http://www.azfire.org)
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To: Xthe17th
Our great governor, Craig Benson here in NH, has endorsed the project and will welcome the people who want to make history. Many of us have been doing same for years, that is, saying NO to big government.
42 posted on 08/18/2003 1:41:09 PM PDT by Final Authority
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To: EBUCK
And I think that veterans (including me) yern for the sense of fairness and honor that used to be everywhere in our daily military lives. Something that we'll never get inside the current system no matter how hard we try.

Despite the regimentation, discipline and endless waste and often inefficiency, the military at least offered an evenhandedness and virtues [including honour] that were at least generally followed, if sometimes left in the breech for expediency's sake.

But the current system not only disregards such things but considers them as an anathema to their continuation, and rightfully so. You've read Heinlein's Starship Troopers I bet. *Those people* never had a History& Moral Philosophy course, much less fulfilled the first duty of a citizen....

-archy-/-

43 posted on 08/18/2003 1:44:53 PM PDT by archy (Keep in mind that the milk of human kindness comes from a beast that is both cannibal and a vampire.)
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To: Final Authority
Our great governor, Craig Benson here in NH, has endorsed the project and will welcome the people who want to make history. Many of us have been doing same for years, that is, saying NO to big government.

Yep, as per the FSP report of the Governor's interest *here*. Indeed, his endorsement is one factor that caused me to remove New Hampshire from my *Opt-Out* list of states I wouldn't be considering for relocation to, both for the acceptance of our migration as well as the liklihood that despite certain political and philosophical differences, we could work with statre leaders like Governor Benson.

Besides, I like the idea of having someone like Benson in the Governor's mansion.

44 posted on 08/18/2003 1:54:00 PM PDT by archy (Keep in mind that the milk of human kindness comes from a beast that is both cannibal and a vampire.)
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To: rmmcdaniell
It is not because of few jobs that NH has a low population but to the contrary, the jobs are plentiful for the educated and the hard working which directly causes the weak and the stupid from competing and moving here. NH is among the highest of mean family income in the union and is nearly the highest when it comes to education level. Take into consideration "old" money and the high value of property with all the lake front, mountain side, and sea shore homes and businesses one can figure it costs a lot to live here and folks are reasonably rich. We know liberals can't stand our values of hard work, personal organization (marrying right and staying out of trouble) education, and giving back to the community not in terms of taxes, so we do not vote for liberals. Liberals can feel and teach their feelings to others but they can not do, so I believe they show disdain for those of us who do and that act is to tax those of us who do to dis-incentiveize doing.

Please bring on the free state project.
45 posted on 08/18/2003 1:55:34 PM PDT by Final Authority
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To: Final Authority
What about Mass-holes?
46 posted on 08/18/2003 2:03:42 PM PDT by freeeee
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To: Dada Orwell
What's "crucial" about 5,000 unpaid "members"? Do they get a free pizza?
47 posted on 08/18/2003 2:09:17 PM PDT by Roscoe
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To: archy
*Those people* never had a History& Moral Philosophy course, much less fulfilled the first duty of a citizen....

Isn't it a shame what they did to that book? So now, the people who saw the flick but never read the book will never understand your comments....

48 posted on 08/18/2003 3:34:31 PM PDT by EBUCK (FIRE!....rounds downrange! http://www.azfire.org)
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To: EBUCK
Isn't it a shame what they did to that book? So now, the people who saw the flick but never read the book will never understand your comments....

Maybe. And maybe not. I understand a sequel to the first film is in the works....

I always get the shakes before a drop....

49 posted on 08/18/2003 4:29:07 PM PDT by archy (Keep in mind that the milk of human kindness comes from a beast that is both cannibal and a vampire.)
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To: archy
Is it gonna be made by the same people who obviously think Heinlein is a fascist or some such?

I hope not.....
50 posted on 08/18/2003 4:35:58 PM PDT by EBUCK (FIRE!....rounds downrange! http://www.azfire.org)
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