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Ex-spy fingers Russians on WMD (Russians helped Iraq hide WMD)("must read")
Washington Times ^ | Aug 21, 2003 | Ion Mihai Pacepa

Posted on 08/20/2003 10:55:44 PM PDT by FairOpinion

Edited on 07/12/2004 3:40:35 PM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

On March 20, Russian PresidentVladimir Putin denounced the U.S.-led "aggression" against Iraq as "unwarranted" and "unjustifiable." Three days later, Pravda said that an anonymous Russian "military expert" was predicting that the United States would fabricate finding Iraqi weapons of mass destruction. Russian Foreign Minister Igor Ivanov immediately started plying the idea abroad, and it has taken hold around the world ever since.


(Excerpt) Read more at washingtontimes.com ...


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; Front Page News; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections; Russia; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: chemical; dispose; hide; ionmihaipacepa; iraq; putin; russia; sarindar; weapons; wmd
This article combines facts with educated guess, based on previous experience.

The article is a little long, but it's really eye-opening and highly recommend reading it in its entirety.

"The Soviet bloc not only sold Saddam its WMDs, but it showed them how to make them "disappear." Russia is still at it. Primakov was in Baghdad from December until a couple of days before the war, along with a team of Russian military experts led by two of Russia's topnotch "retired"generals,Vladislav Achalov, a former deputy defense minister, and Igor Maltsev, a former air defense chief of staff.

The U.S. military in fact, has already found the only thing that would have been allowed to survive under the classic Soviet "Sarindar" plan to liquidate weapons arsenals in the event of defeat in war — the technological documents showing how to reproduce weapons stocks in just a few weeks. "

1 posted on 08/20/2003 10:55:44 PM PDT by FairOpinion
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To: nightowl
Iraq WMD ping :)
2 posted on 08/20/2003 11:04:53 PM PDT by FairOpinion
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To: Matchett-PI
ping
3 posted on 08/20/2003 11:08:51 PM PDT by FairOpinion
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To: FairOpinion
"All chemical weapons were to be immediately burned or buried deep at sea."

There's a stigmatic seer in Venezuela, Maria Esperanza, who commented on this and it was translated by her son in law: " She just feels there is much beneath the surface..."
4 posted on 08/20/2003 11:23:11 PM PDT by Domestic Church (AMDG...from the spiritdaily.com website)
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To: Domestic Church
There's a stigmatic seer in Venezuela, Maria Esperanza, who commented on this and it was translated by her son in law: " She just feels there is much beneath the surface..."

---

That is very interesting. Israeli intelligence said they have satellite pictures about Iraq moving their WMD to Lebanon and that they think/know (?) that they are buried in the Bakaa Valley in Lebanon. And of course some could be buried in Iraq as well -- not that long ago we found several Russian airplanes buried in the sand.

Also we found large quantities of mustard gas and cyanide in the Euphrates river, which would also substantiate the notion that some of the weapons were dumped there.

I can see how Iraq dumped some of it -- such as some of the chemical weapons, and hid the biological ones. They had plenty of time.
Remember that we found those mobile biolabs scrubbed completely clean too.

This article also explains the thought process of trying to make the US look like we are "warmongers" with no justification. The Russians and Saddam put a lot of emphasis on propaganda, because in general it works, as we were finding out ourselves, in the world opinion.
5 posted on 08/20/2003 11:28:44 PM PDT by FairOpinion
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To: FairOpinion
I wonder if this has anything to do with the fact that Putin is planning a visit with Bush ..??
6 posted on 08/20/2003 11:35:43 PM PDT by CyberAnt ( America - "The Greatest Nation on the Face of the Earth")
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To: CyberAnt
I think dealing with the Russians is very complex, because on one hand I do think Putin is sincere about wanting to join the West, but old habits die hard, and the Russian are also ingrained in their distrust of the US, secretiveness, and doing things, which they think it's in their own interest, even though it really isn't.

Specifically, I think it would have been more in their interest to "fess up" to Bush about their support of Iraq and join our coalition, but instead, they chose to oppose us and continue to help Iraq against us to the very end.

But Putin did agree to not contest our withdrawal from the ABM treaty, which was a real major thing for them.

So, there is hope for them, but we can't trust them.
7 posted on 08/20/2003 11:39:35 PM PDT by FairOpinion
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To: CyberAnt
I didn't specifically answer your question/speculation.

I think Putin's visit was planned a long time ago and they have had visits back and forth with Bush. This may well be a topic raised, but I doubt it is the only reason.

I think Bush is trying to turn the Russians around, so they start to trust us more and then, slowly we can start trusting them -- but not until we see tangible evidence.
8 posted on 08/20/2003 11:41:42 PM PDT by FairOpinion
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To: FairOpinion
BUMP!
9 posted on 08/20/2003 11:50:35 PM PDT by HighRoadToChina (Never Again!)
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To: FairOpinion
WMD Ping
10 posted on 08/21/2003 12:00:31 AM PDT by nathanbedford (qqua)
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To: FairOpinion
Esperanza has long said(decade or more) there is a small power(probably al quaeda) and a much larger power(Russia?!) behind the terrorism evil.

She saw the twin towers on fire well before the first strike.
11 posted on 08/21/2003 12:01:25 AM PDT by Domestic Church (AMDG...)
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To: FairOpinion
"I do think Putin is sincere about wanting to join the West, but old habits die hard,..."

The Russian way of joining is to take over control. Many think the entire perestroika thing was just a cloak.
12 posted on 08/21/2003 12:04:22 AM PDT by Domestic Church (AMDG...)
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To: FairOpinion
Ok - I just wondered if they might have found some new info in all those documents, and Bush wanted to discuss them with Putin in Private.
13 posted on 08/21/2003 12:11:21 AM PDT by CyberAnt ( America - "The Greatest Nation on the Face of the Earth")
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To: FairOpinion; Grampa Dave
The Russian generals said, "We did not come to Baghdad to drink coffee."
14 posted on 08/21/2003 12:17:52 AM PDT by PhilDragoo (Hitlery: das Butch von Buchenvald)
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To: CyberAnt
Putin is planning to come here again .. when?
15 posted on 08/21/2003 12:18:29 AM PDT by Mo1 (I still hate Liberal Democrats)
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To: Dog
Ping
16 posted on 08/21/2003 12:20:21 AM PDT by Mo1 (I still hate Liberal Democrats)
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To: CyberAnt
Remember how all of the embassies closed during the war in Iraq except for one? Yes, the Russian embassy was the ONLY one that stayed open.

I'm still trying to say that if we want to find Saddam, all we have to do is find a way to check out that embassy compound. He's been there all along.
17 posted on 08/21/2003 12:31:37 AM PDT by 11B3 (Looking for a belt-fed, multi-barreled 12 guage. It's Liberal season, no daily limit.)
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To: FairOpinion
"This article also explains the thought process of trying to make the US look like we are "warmongers" with no justification. The Russians and Saddam put a lot of emphasis on propaganda, because in general it works, as we were finding out ourselves, in the world opinion."

Along with the help of the US media and the Democrats doing share.

18 posted on 08/21/2003 12:38:19 AM PDT by malia
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To: Mo1
It's fairly soon - at Camp David.
19 posted on 08/21/2003 12:44:26 AM PDT by CyberAnt ( America - "The Greatest Nation on the Face of the Earth")
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To: 11B3
You might be right on Saddam's location.

Here's some more Russian news I pasted from another thread:

---- STATE OF EMERGENCY IN RUSSIA'S FAR EAST (Sakhalin region and Kamchatka) http://en.rian.ru/rian/index.cfm?prd_id=160&msg_id=3391079&startrow=41&date=2003-08-19&do_alert=0

Sakhalin governor and Mi-8 helicopter missing http://en.rian.ru/rian/index.cfm?prd_id=160&msg_id=3393614&startrow=21&date=2003-08-20&do_alert=0
20 posted on 08/21/2003 1:15:17 AM PDT by Domestic Church (AMDG...)
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To: FairOpinion
bttt
21 posted on 08/21/2003 1:55:07 AM PDT by Tailgunner Joe
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To: FairOpinion
All chemical weapons were to be immediately burned or buried deep at sea ...

In the news, for a few days prior to action in Iraq, were reports of a few suspicious ships just meandering around the worlds oceans. The reports said the ships were going from port to port, but were illegally not responding to regular contacts. I don't recall the reasons for the suspicions, but I do recall the speculation that these ships contained Saddam's WMDs.

22 posted on 08/21/2003 2:36:58 AM PDT by C210N
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
ping
23 posted on 08/21/2003 3:13:33 AM PDT by Libertarianize the GOP (Ideas have consequences)
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To: FairOpinion
BUMP
24 posted on 08/21/2003 5:27:55 AM PDT by truthandlife
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To: truthandlife
This is very interesting!

Gum

25 posted on 08/21/2003 6:14:21 AM PDT by ChewedGum ( http://king-of-fools.blogspot.com)
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To: FairOpinion
As a former Romanian spy chief who used to take orders from the Soviet KGB, it is perfectly obvious to me that Russia is behind the evanescence of Saddam Hussein's weapons of mass destruction. ===

Soviet bloc? "Romanian spy chief who took order from KGB"? Definetely false. Romanian Chaushesku was autonomous very much time.

Others just usual speculations on theme of Soviet Union. Nothing new but old allergations.
26 posted on 08/21/2003 8:19:02 AM PDT by RusIvan
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To: FairOpinion
Thanks for posting this! It is definately one of the pieces of the puzzle as to why Saddam's "trading partners" didn't want us to go into Iraq. It's all going to come out eventually.

America's enemies (within and without) thought they had it made. They never banked on someone like GWB being elected here. Hahaha
27 posted on 08/21/2003 8:21:35 AM PDT by Matchett-PI (Why do America's enemies desperately want DemocRATS back in power?)
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To: FairOpinion
So, there is hope for them, but we can't trust them. ==

Trust takes time. But it take education too. If you read that kind of biased article then you will never know and always will be suspicious.

This article beneath ctitisism. Just one piece fo propaganda against.. Soviet Union:)))..

Just asnwer to yourself this question. Why Russia will need few buckets of Saddam chemicals if she voluntary destroy now 40000(!) TONNS(!) of lot more dangerous soviet chemical weapons?
28 posted on 08/21/2003 8:27:02 AM PDT by RusIvan
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To: FairOpinion
It is worth remembering that Andrei Sakharov, the father of the Soviet hydrogen bomb, chose to live in a Soviet gulag instead of continuing to develop the power of death. ===

LOL:)))))))))))))))..

Saharov never lived in any gulags. He was under home arrest once in town Gorky. But it happened long after he ended his work on atomic weaponry.

You see?
29 posted on 08/21/2003 8:30:36 AM PDT by RusIvan
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To: C210N
Three mystery ships are tracked over suspected 'weapons' cargo
30 posted on 08/21/2003 8:31:01 AM PDT by Spruce
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To: FairOpinion
Man, if I were president I would kick Saddam's butt and Afganistan's.... Oh, Bush already did that...
31 posted on 08/21/2003 8:32:57 AM PDT by Porterville (I hate anything and anyone that would attack the things that I love...)
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To: FairOpinion
Found two more "brilliant" pieces:))).

Primakov was in Baghdad from December until a couple of days before the war, along with a team of Russian military experts led by two of Russia's topnotch "retired"generals,Vladislav Achalov, a former deputy defense minister, and Igor Maltsev, a former air defense chief of staff. ===

Primakov went Bagdad as private person. He was once the prime minister of Russia during Eltsin presidency. But he is nothing during Putin's.
Those 2 generals was SOVIET generals not Russia's. Both participants of coup in 1991 was discharged from army.
Author conviniently ommited such a details. Why? The impression will be different. Right?

Even Igor Kurchatov, the KGB academician who headed the Soviet nuclear program from 1943 until his death in 1960, ==

There wasn't such thing as "KGB academician". It was Academy of Science of USSR. Saharov and Kurchatov was member of it. I recall many western scientists too. Like Hils Bor for example. I'm not sure but Albert Einstain was honorable member too.

It is amusing to analyse such an article. Very laughable:)).
32 posted on 08/21/2003 8:43:11 AM PDT by RusIvan
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To: FairOpinion
From the article, it is easy to see the real fruits of the months of delay. These fruits have not accrued to us!
33 posted on 08/21/2003 8:44:32 AM PDT by Gritty
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To: RusIvan
Primakov went Bagdad as private person. He was once the prime minister of Russia during Eltsin presidency. But he is nothing during Putin's.

So, is it not possible that Primakov still had the contacts and access to the network in the old Soviet scientific community to be able to "sell" to Iraq what it wanted? The need to have an exit strategy for the WMD would still be there.

34 posted on 08/21/2003 11:10:37 AM PDT by wayoverontheright
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To: C210N
"I do recall the speculation that these ships contained Saddam's WMDs. "

--

And we never heard what really happened to them.

And now we have this FBI warning about the coast line...

2+2=?
35 posted on 08/21/2003 1:56:59 PM PDT by FairOpinion
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To: RusIvan
Surely you know better than that.

That whole Ceausescu "independence" was a ruse to the West. He was still taking orders from the Soviet Union.
36 posted on 08/21/2003 1:58:20 PM PDT by FairOpinion
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To: RusIvan
"Primakov went Bagdad as private person"

---

Sure. Ex-Soviet generals just had this strong urge to go vacation in Iraq, just before the US invasion.

Would you like to buy some land and bridges?
37 posted on 08/21/2003 1:59:24 PM PDT by FairOpinion
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To: RusIvan
It is well known fact, that Russia trained Saddam's intelligence and quite possibly provided them with bio and chemical weapons.

It is quite plausible that Russia wanted to hide and destroy Saddam's weapons for two reasons: one to make the US look bad, taking away the main reason for the invasion, and so the WMD can't be traced back to Russia.

Pacepa's description and speculation is most likely right on the money.
38 posted on 08/21/2003 2:01:35 PM PDT by FairOpinion
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To: RusIvan
Others just usual speculations on theme of Soviet Union. Nothing new but old allergations.

Yes, nothing but the normal 'allergations' on the 'theme of Soviet Union': murder, tyranny, and deception as the operating tactics, and of course, eventual defeat to the forces of freedom.

39 posted on 08/21/2003 7:35:54 PM PDT by Monti Cello
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To: wayoverontheright
So, is it not possible that Primakov still had the contacts and access to the network in the old Soviet scientific community to be able to "sell" to Iraq what it wanted? ==

Primakov never was scientist himself. He was spy then later politician. He was first as I know former spy who went to politics accually.
So he knows probably some of scientists from Academy of Sciences personally but he is outsider. And scientists doesn't sell nothing.
If who can sell something sensitive then the captains of particular industry. But I very doubt. It mean the betrayal of Mother Russia I still beleive that it is very difficult thing to do for such a people.
40 posted on 08/21/2003 10:44:34 PM PDT by RusIvan
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To: FairOpinion
It is well known fact, that Russia trained Saddam's intelligence and quite possibly provided them with bio and chemical weapons. ===

Why not intercontinental nuclier missiles? Imagination works isn't it? No proves in any case anyway:)))..

It is quite plausible that Russia wanted to hide and destroy Saddam's weapons for two reasons: one to make the US look bad, ===

So US in that case as small child who wanted his toy but grim uncle hide it form her. Where was so well reputable american intellegence community? Absolutely hopeless?
So now it is all left to her is to speculate that russians took it and hide it deeply. It is what I call "finger pointing". Try to switch the attention from them on other:)).

Can you imagine that intellegence was plain wrong and there wasn't no WMD?
I agree with one thing so. Saddam wanted to build WMD and he has mean for that. Then he was dangerous. Then I agree that this war was pure precaution.
But that real explanation wasn't done. Instead goverment went to propaganda likewise Saddam will bomb west with WMD just tomorrow.
Then those who used that propaganda fell themselves to that trap. Now they have to find WMD or explain why it isn't found.
Then when they fail to find it of course last resort left: russians hided it:))). Or chinese or martians. Why not? Martians won't deny it:)).. Because they probably don't care.
41 posted on 08/21/2003 11:01:19 PM PDT by RusIvan
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To: RusIvan; FairOpinion
"Instead goverment went to propaganda likewise Saddam will bomb west with WMD just tomorrow."

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and just assume that like so many others, you've been duped by the Leftist media, and you're merely helping them to peddle their lies out of ignorance.

Here is the exact quote of what President Bush said in his State of the Union speech just before before the war:

"Some have said we must not act until the threat is imminent. Since when have terrorists and tyrants announced their intentions, politely putting us on notice before they strike?"

Here it is worded the way you would have worded it (using the word, "tomorrow"):

"Some have said we must not act unless the threat is tomorrow. Since when have terrorists and tyrants announced their intentions, politely putting us on notice before they strike?"

As you can see, President Bush said exactly the OPPOSITE of what you said he said.

42 posted on 08/24/2003 10:00:20 AM PDT by Matchett-PI (Why do America's enemies desperately want DemocRATS back in power?)
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To: FairOpinion; RusIvan; nightowl; Ernest_at_the_Beach
Here's more:

The Pacepa Accusation - Jay Bryant - Sunday August 23, 2003

An article by Ion Pacepa, which appeared in Thursday's Washington Times is much too important to simply be left to stand alone.

Pacepa charges that General Yevgeny Primakov, a former Prime Minister of Russia and onetime head of the Soviet foreign intelligence service, ran Saddam Hussein's weapons program and personally oversaw the liquidation of the evidence that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction. Pacepa doesn't quite say it directly, but his article implies that Russian President Vladimir Putin was aware of and approved Primakov's role in the WMD disappearance program.

If all this is true, it is the most important news about Iraq since the fall of Saddam's government, for two reasons: first, it indicts the anti-American axis of old Europe in complicity not just to prevent us from getting too big for our britches, but in a willingness to prop up the most dreadful dictator since Stalin in the process.

Second, it provides the real answer to the embarrassing question: why haven't you found any WMD's?

Who is this Ion Pacepa, and why should we believe him? Once deputy chief of Romanian foreign intelligence, he defected to the U.S. in 1978. He remains the highest- ranking intelligence officer ever to defect from the Soviet Bloc.

To me, that pedigree means two things: he knows a lot about intelligence, and he knows how to lie.

Is he lying about Primakov? Or perhaps he's not exactly lying; but perhaps his theory is simply wrong.

Here is Pacepa's case. The Soviets and their allies always had a "standard operating procedure" for getting rid of weapons of mass destruction. Pacepa himself implemented the S.O.P. in Libya.

Saddam had such a procedure in place; Romanian dictator Nicolae Ceausescu "told me so," Pacepa says, and so did Primakov, who "in the late 1970's…ran Saddam's weapons programs." There is a problem with this assertion, because Saddam did not officially come to power until July of 1979, and Ceausescu certainly was not chatting up Pacepa after the latter's 1978 defection. However, Saddam was the power behind the throne of his cousin General Ahmad Hassan al-Bakr, who assumed control of Iraq in a 1968 coup d'etat, so it all may be true at least de facto, if not de jure. But Pacepa needs to explain just how this part of the story works to have real credibility.

Primakov, according to Pacepa, worked with Saddam throughout the latter's reign, and it is true that he was closely involved with the Iraqi leader in 1991, earning the enmity of the administration of Bush the Elder.

Primakov's closeness to Saddam is attested by other sources as well. In 1999, when the general was Russian Prime Minister, journalist Seymour Hirsch published an article in the New Yorker alleging that Primakov had received an $800,000 Iraqi bribe hand-delivered by Tariq Aziz.

But the truly important piece of information in Pacepa's story is this: that Primakov was in Baghdad with two other former Soviet generals, Vladislav Achalov and Igor Maltsev, "from December [2002] until a couple of days before the war."

I have confirmed that he was there at least part of that time. On February 24, 2003, Condoleezza Rice was asked by a reporter what she thought Primakov was doing in Baghdad.

She didn't know, but she knew he was there, and referenced his parallel 1991 visit in her answer.

If Primakov spent anything like the three months before the Iraqi War in Baghdad, it is patently obvious that he was up to no good, and logical, given his expertise, to believe his mission may well have been orchestrating the deep-sixing of Saddam's WMD stockpile.

The worldwide press should pick up this story, investigate it thoroughly, and if it vets out make it front page news for a long time. They should smoke out Primakov – and his two cronies, too, perhaps even more so – and ask them to explain what they was doing on the banks of the Tigris in the winter of '03. Whatever lie they tell in answering, reporters should follow up on, disprove and write another week's worth of stories.

Putin, too should be made to feel the heat of this investigation. Primakov, Achalov and Matlsev may have been there on their own, without Putin's imprimatur, but I doubt it, and anyway, Putin should be put on the record with that claim, if he chooses to make it.

The world (not to mention the Democrats) is beating the Bush Administration about the head and shoulders with the accusation that there are no WMD's in Iraq. If the reason is because General Primakov implemented an old Soviet plan and liquidated the whole stockpile, then the world needs to know it

Jay Bryant’s regular columns are available at www.theoptimate.com, and his commentaries may be heard on NPR’s “All Things Considered.” .

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/GuestColumns/Bryant20030823.shtml



43 posted on 08/24/2003 10:07:11 AM PDT by Matchett-PI (Why do America's enemies desperately want DemocRATS back in power?)
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To: Matchett-PI
Thank you for clarification. But "imminent" and "tomorrow" aren't very opposite. I spoke about about impression I got but not exact citation. As I said I agree that this war was nessesary as a prevention of danger.
It wasn't me who explained that war by existance of WMDs and as you say the imminent attack on USA. Now those who promised that WMD have to show it.
So instead of to step forward and say that it was exaggarated and to concentrate on the danger of Saddam issue those try to explain why there are not WMD found. "Syrians hided it then Russians hided it". Next it will be the martians took it. As I said the martians do not care:). One may blame martians however one likes.
44 posted on 08/24/2003 12:16:12 PM PDT by RusIvan
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To: backhoe
Add this to your WMD list?
45 posted on 12/08/2003 12:48:45 PM PST by blanknoone
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To: blanknoone
Thanks, I will- had not yet seen it.
46 posted on 12/08/2003 1:09:46 PM PST by backhoe (--30--)
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