Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Freeper Research Project: Enoch and Astronomy
8/27/03 | Various Freepers

Posted on 08/27/2003 11:33:41 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl

Several Freepers are engaged in a research project to evaluate whether the book of astronomy in 1 Enoch gives the modern day reader any clues concerning its authenticity. Perhaps you would like to participate in the research or keep tabs with the progress as we move along.

Enoch is quoted directly in the book of Jude and about 100 passages in the New Testament are rooted in the 1 Enoch phrasing.

Why is the authenticity of Enoch relevant to Christians today?

But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, [even] to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. - Daniel 12:4

Obviously we are in a time of unprecedented knowledge and travel, thus many have been curious whether the hidden text mentioned in Daniel has already been revealed to any extent.

Some have proposed that the Bible Code (Equidistant Letter Sequence) is the hidden text mentioned in Daniel. So far I believe the search has been limited to a simple matrix but there was some talk of looking for any patterns in a holographic. As I recall, Newton suspected there was a code in the Pentateuch.

Still others have mentioned the book of Enoch which was rediscovered in 1773 in Ethopia and further authenticated by copies found at Qumran (Dead Sea Scrolls). Enoch begins:

The blessing of Enoch; with which he blessed the elect and the righteous who would be present on the day of tribulation at (the time of) the removal of all the ungodly ones. And Enoch, the blessed and righteous man of the Lord, took up (his parable) while his eyes were open and he saw, and said "(This is) a holy vision from the heavens which the angels showed me; and I heard from them everything and I understood. I look not for this generation but for the distant one that is coming. I speak about the elect ones and concerning them. (The Old Testament Pseudepigrapha, Volume I, 1 Enoch)

Chaps. 72-82 The Astronomical Book, like the Book of Watchers, may date from the third century BCE; the oldest copy of it seems to have been made not long after 200 BCE. Sizable portions of the text are preserved on four copies, written in Aramaic, from Qumran cave 4. The Aramaic original appears to have been much different and much longer than the Ethiopic text, adding far more astronomical details." - James C. Vanderkam

At one time Enoch was considered Scripture but it fell into disfavor. I pulled the following excerpt from this link a few years back:

The Book of Enoch (also known as 1 Enoch) was once cherished by Jews and Christians alike, this book later fell into disfavor with powerful theologians–precisely because of its controversial statements on the nature and deeds of the fallen angels…

The theme of the Book of Enoch dealing with the nature and deeds of the fallen angels so infuriated the later Church fathers that one, Filastrius, actually condemned it openly as heresy (Filastrius, Liber de Haeresibus, no. 108). Nor did the rabbis deign to give credence to the book’s teaching about angels. Rabbi Simeon ben Jochai in the second century A.D. pronounced a curse upon those who believed it (Delitzsch, p. 223).

So the book was denounced, banned, cursed, no doubt burned and shredded–and last but not least, lost (and conveniently forgotten) for a thousand years. But with an uncanny persistence, the Book of Enoch found its way back into circulation two centuries ago.

In 1773, rumors of a surviving copy of the book drew Scottish explorer James Bruce to distant Ethiopia. True to hearsay, the Book of Enoch had been preserved by the Ethiopic church, which put it right alongside the other books of the Bible…

Though it was once believed to be post-Christian (the similarities to Christian terminology and teaching are striking), recent discoveries of copies of the book among the Dead Sea Scrolls found at Qumran prove that the book was in existence before the time of Jesus Christ. But the date of the original writing upon which the second century B.C. Qumran copies were based is shrouded in obscurity. It is, in a word, old…

There is abundant proof that Christ approved of the Book of Enoch. Over a hundred phrases in the New Testament find precedents in the Book of Enoch.

Another remarkable bit of evidence for the early Christians’ acceptance of the Book of Enoch was for many years buried under the King James Bible’s mistranslation of Luke 9:35, describing the transfiguration of Christ: "And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, ‘This is my beloved Son: hear him." Apparently the translator here wished to make this verse agree with a similar verse in Matthew and Mark. But Luke’s verse in the original Greek reads: "This is my Son, the Elect One (from the Greek ho eklelegmenos, lit., "the elect one"): hear him."

The "Elect One" is a most significant term (found fourteen times) in the Book of Enoch. If the book was indeed known to the apostles of Christ, with its abundant descriptions of the Elect One who should "sit upon the throne of glory" and the Elect One who should "dwell in the midst of them," then the great scriptural authenticity is accorded to the Book of Enoch when the "voice out of the cloud" tells the apostles, "This is my Son, the Elect One"–the one promised in the Book of Enoch.

The Book of Jude tells us in vs. 14 that "Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied…" Jude also, in vs. 15, makes a direct reference to the Book of Enoch (2:1), where he writes, "to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly…" …

Many of the early church fathers also supported the Enochian writings. Justin Martyr ascribed all evil to demons whom he alleged to be the offspring of the angels who fell through lust for women (from the Ibid.)–directly referencing the Enochian writings.

Athenagoras, writing in his work called Legatio in about 170 A.D., regards Enoch as a true prophet. He describes the angels which "violated both their own nature and their office." In his writings, he goes into detail about the nature of fallen angels and the cause of their fall, which comes directly from the Enochian writings.

Many other church fathers: Tatian (110-172); Irenaeus, Bishop of Lyons (115-185); Clement of Alexandria (150-220); Tertullian (160-230); Origen (186-255); Lactantius (260-330); in addition to: Methodius of Philippi, Minucius Felix, Commodianus, and Ambrose of Milanalso–also approved of and supported the Enochian writings…

One by one the arguments against the Book of Enoch fade away. The day may soon arrive when the final complaints about the Book of Enoch’s lack of historicity and "late date" are also silenced by new evidence of the book’s real antiquity.

Here is a current day Jewish perspective on Enoch:

The Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha

The oldest known Jewish work not included in the Bible is the Book of Enoch. This is a complex work, written in the third (or perhaps even the late fourth) century BCE, after the return from the Babylonian Exile and the establishment of the Second Jewish Commonwealth (6th-5th centuries BCE) and before the Maccabean revolt in 172 BCE. The oldest copies of the Book of Enoch, dating from the third century BCE, were discovered among the Dead Sea Scrolls (see below).

The Dead Sea ScrollsBy Ayala Sussman and Ruth Peled

The Qumran sect's origins are postulated by some scholars to be in the communities of the Hasidim, the pious anti-Hellenistic circles formed in the early days of the Maccabees. The Hasidim may have been the precursors of the Essenes, who were concerned about growing Hellenization and strove to abide by the Torah.

Archeological and historical evidence indicates that Qumran was founded in the second half of the second century B.C.E., during the time of the Maccabean dynasty. A hiatus in the occupation of the site is linked to evidence of a huge earthquake. Qumran was abandoned about the time of the Roman incursion of 68 C.E., two years before the collapse of Jewish self-government in Judea and the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem in 70 C.E….

The historian Josephus relates the division of the Jews of the Second Temple period into three orders: the Sadducees, the Pharisees, and the Essenes. The Sadducees included mainly the priestly and aristocratic families; the Pharisees constituted the Jay circles; and the Essenes were a separatist group, part of which formed an ascetic monastic community that retreated to the wilderness. The exact political and religious affinities of each of these groups, as well as their development and interrelationships, are still relatively obscure and arc the source of widely disparate scholarly views.

Here is Tertullian’s explanation of why Enoch didn’t make it into the canon:

Early Church Father, Tertullian 155-160 CE

The Book of Enoch & the Church Fathers

Tertullian, for example, wrote, "I am aware that the Scripture of Enoch, which has assigned this order (of action) to angels, is not received by some, because it is not admitted into the Jewish canon either. I suppose they did not think that, having been published before the deluge, it could have safely survived that world-wide calamity, the abolisher of all things. If that is the reason (for rejecting it), let them recall to their memory that Noah, the survivor of the deluge, was the great-grandson of Enoch himself; and he, of course, had heard and remembered, from domestic renown and hereditary tradition, concerning his own great-grandfather's "grace in the sight of God," and concerning all his preachings; since Enoch had given no other charge to Methuselah than that he should hand on the knowledge of them to his posterity. Noah therefore, no doubt, might have succeeded in the trusteeship of (his) preaching; or, had the case been otherwise, he would not have been silent alike concerning the disposition (of things) made by God, his Preserver, and concerning the particular glory of his own house.

"If (Noah) had not had this (conservative power) by so short a route, there would (still) be this (consideration) to warrant our assertion of (the genuineness of) this Scripture: he could equally have renewed it, under the Spirit's inspiration, after it had been destroyed by the violence of the deluge, as, after the destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonian storming of it, every document of the Jewish literature is generally agreed to have been restored through Ezra.

"But since Enoch in the same Scripture has preached likewise concerning the Lord, nothing at all must be rejected by us which pertains to us; and we read that "every Scripture suitable for edification is divinely inspired". By the Jews it may now seem to have been rejected for that (very) reason, just like all the other (portions) nearly which tell of Christ. Nor, of course, is this fact wonderful, that they did not receive some Scriptures which spake of Him whom even in person, speaking in their presence, they were not to receive. To these considerations is added the fact that Enoch possesses a testimony in the Apostle Jude."

An opinion from the Later Day Saints corner:

http://www.meridianmagazine.com/sci_rel/010911enoch.html

Modern scholars, beginning with Laurence, all date the origin of the book to the first or second century before Christ, hence it is assigned to the "pseudepigrapha," meaning it is not believed to have been written by the named author. It is dated using standard "scholarly" methods. One rule of dating used by modern scholars, is that if anything is prophesied which turns out to be correct, it must have been written after the event, because otherwise the author would really have to have been a prophet! This complete rejection of the entire concept of revelation forced Laurence to put the authorship of the Book of Enoch extremely late because he saw that it prophesied not only the existence of Parthia (250 B.C.), but even the reign of King Herod the Great, which began in 37 B.C. On the other hand, it was quoted by the Savior and his apostles so it must have been written before their time. Thus Laurence inferred that the book had been written "before the rise of Christianity; most probably at an early period of the reign of Herod."[8] More modern scholarship has concluded that the book was probably written by several authors over the period of about 180-64 B.C.[9] This extremely recent authorship date of course raises the question of how such a late forgery could have been so totally accepted as genuine in just a few decades, which has never been adequately explained.

In this article, let us consider the outrageous possibility that the work was actually originally written by the prophet Enoch long before the Great Flood and contains many genuine revelations.[10] It probably also contains some interpolations of men, and has suffered from mistakes introduced by the many hand-made transcriptions. But for the purposes of this article, when it says that an angel revealed to Enoch a divine calendar, those statements will be taken at face value. One scientific way to test a hypothesis is to assume it is true and examine the consequences. Let us now apply that method to the astronomy contained in the Book of Enoch.

For our own counsel, we Freepers may be able to shed some light on the antiquity of Enoch by looking at the book of astronomy.

1 Enoch contains various statements about astronomy which are strangely accurate considering the known age of the manuscript and the language. Page 14 of the following article dates fragment 4Q208, which is from a Qumran copy of 1 Enoch in the book of astronomy section as paleographic age 200 B.C. and is carbon-dated, calibrated 166-102 BC and 186-92 BC.

Radiocarbon dating of scrolls and linen fragments (pdf)

To put it in context, the Essenes at Qumran were evidently piously anti-Hellenistic, which is to say they strongly resisted the influence of Greece – so much so they went into the wilderness. The other two main sects of Jews after they returned from Babylon were Pharisees and Sadducees. So, in terms of influence on the 1 Enoch book of astronomy – if it were a fabrication – the possible influences would include Babylonia and to a lesser extent Greece. Here are the strange observations concerning astronomy recorded in 1 Enoch:

That the light of the moon is a reflection from the sun: "Then Uriel showed me another order (concerning) when light is beamed into the moon, from which direction of the bright sun it is beamed." 1 Enoch 78:10

Research on the forum indicates that the earliest notion that the moon was reflecting light from the sun can be traced to Greece, ca 450 B.C. Anaxagores of Clazomenae. That date would be plenty early enough for an original from which the Qumran copy would be made. The counter point would be the anti-Hellenistic attitude of the Essenes, but then again, they may not have known the origin of the idea.

Orbits. We know that the moon orbits the sun and the sun orbits the Milky Way. It is very strange (to me) that Enoch would say: "They [sun and moon] do not depart from their orbit, neither increase or decrease it; but they keep faith one with another; in accordance with an oath they set and they rise." – 1 Enoch 41:5

Research on the forum shows the earliest notion of heliocentricity came from Greece - Aristarchus of Samos (fl 320-250 B.C.) but that his views were not prominently held until Ptolemy in 150 B.C.

Aristotle (384 - 322 B.C.)

Aristarchus of Samos (fl. 320 - 250 BC)

NASA

The carbon-dating of 186 B.C. would have to be too old by at least 36 years and even so, the orbit information would need to migrate from Greece to an original Aramaic or Hebrew/Aramaic manuscript to Qumran to be copied to Aramaic. In the alternative, if the 1 Enoch is fake, then the author had to subscribe to the minority view of Aristarchus of Samos, thus not only being Hellenistic but extremely so.

That the sun and moon generate energy: "they do not economize (on energy), for their very essence generates new power." – 1 Enoch 41:7

Research has not begun on this issue.

That the sun shines even when it is not seen: "And neither does it diminish (in respect to its brightness) not take rest but continue to run day and night. – 1 Enoch 72: 36

Research has not begun on this issue.

That stars come into existence and die by becoming lightening – a possible reference to stellar evolution or supernovae: "And I saw another thing regarding lightening: how some stars arise and become lightening and cannot dwell with the rest." 1 Enoch 44

If Enoch had seen a supernova from his heavenly travels, as testified in the manuscript, then he would describe it the way he did - the star explodes into light and cannot gather itself back into being the star.

Research on the forum indicates the first observation of a supernova was in China in 4 B.C. but the cause of a supernova wasn’t understood until 1054 A.D. in Japan and China.

Freeper Right Wing Professor suggested Enoch’s statement might have been a misinterpretation of a meteor (shooting star.) Further research indicates that the ancients in Egypt, Babylon, Assyria all tied meteor activity to omens and weather and knew that they fell to earth as iron, which they pursued.

We have not yet found a hint that the ancients thought stars died or that they died by becoming "lightening."

Ancient Astronomical Observations and in particular this page shows that it is difficult to separate astrology and astronomy in ancient literature.

Singularity? And then there is a reference to the end of all that there is (and beginning) which sounds like a singularity: in chapter 18 a place with no measure and no content, a pit "where the heavens come together." He records that the angel explained [v. 14] "this is the ultimate end of heaven and earth; it is the prison house for the stars and the powers of heaven…"

Research has not begun on this issue.

Was Enoch Hellenized, and if so would that be enough to explain these strange observations about astronomy?

Alexander liberated Israel from the Persian empire around 300 BC and thus from that point forward, the Jews traveled freely in the Greek world and many became culturally Hellenized (paraphrased from a post by PatrickHenry.) There is a Scholar, Chris King, who believes Enoch is Hellenistic and that explains everything:

The Apocryphal Book of Enoch

1 Enoch is an unmistakable product of Hellenistic civilization. A world view so encyclopaediac that it embraced the geography of heaven and earth, astronomy, meteorology, medicine was no part of Jewish tradition - but was familiar to educated Greeks, but attempting to emulate and surpass Greek wisdom, by having an integrating divine plan for destiny, elaborated through an angelic host with which Enoch is in communication through his mystical travels. - Chris King.

IOW, if 1 Enoch is a fake, at the minimum, the writer of Enoch must have been familiar with Greek philosophy.

The main Jewish/Greek philosopher prior to 150 BC was Philo. And I believe he would have either written in Hebrew or Greek. The book of Enoch at Qumran was copied in Aramaic. Some scholars believe the original Enoch may have been a combination of Hebrew and Aramaic like the book of Daniel.

Since the Essenes went into the wilderness to escape the Hellenization, the counter-point is whether they would have intentionally brought a Hellenized text with them. Or if they believed the text was "kosher" – then there are two significant counter-points:

1. The Jewish calendar is 360 days/year whereas the Enochian calendar calls for 364.

Enoch: a brief textual history

The third Enochian book, the Book of Astronomy, is considered the oldest of those preserved, thought to have been written well before the second century. It contains a description of the structure of the universe as well as the details of a 364 day solar calendar, a calendar that seems to have been popular especially in the Dead Sea Scrolls although it is well supported by another pseudepigraphic book, Jubilees.

2. Enoch does not mention Moses specifically and contains no contextual reference to Jewish traditions present in typical pseudepigraphal manuscripts. If the book were written after Moses by a Jewish author, such would be expected because the Jewish traditions would be second nature. Indeed, a Slavonic version of the Enoch, 2 Enoch, is presumed to have been originally written in Greek because the phrasing gives away clues of both the Greek language and culture.

In other words, if Enoch were authentic we would expect it to not include more than prophetic metaphoric references to Moses or Jewish law or Babylon, Greece, Rome, etc.

The Apocryphal Book of Enoch

"One of the most remarkable features of 1 Enoch is that the law revealed to Moses on Mt. Sinai plays almost no part in it at all. It could be objected that it would be more surprising if it did have a role, since 1 Enoch is, of course, about Enoch who lived before the flood (see Gen 5:21-24) and thus long before the law was revealed. The argument would be that the authors of 1 Enoch were consistent about their pseudepigraphic attribution of the material to Enoch and therefore did not commit the anachronism of having him teach and obey the law of Moses.

"But there is a flaw in that argument because at least two places in the book should mention the law revealed on Mt. Sinai. The two places are in the two principal apocalypses, the Apocalypse of Weeks and the Animal Apocalypse. Both of these revelations cover the period when Israel was in the wilderness and, according to the pentateuch, received the covenantal law." - James C. Vanderkam

One comment with regard to Vanderkam's comment: the Enochian Apocalypse of Weeks is a prophesy (forward looking) and thus, IMHO, would not contain more than it does:

93.1 And, after this, Enoch began to speak from the books:

93.2 And Enoch said: "Concerning the sons of righteousness, and concerning the chosen of the world, and concerning the plant of righteousness and uprightness, I will speak these things to you, and make them known to you, my children. I, Enoch, according to that which appeared to me in the Heavenly vision, and that which I know from the words of the Holy Angels, and understanding from the Tablets of Heaven."

93.3 And Enoch then began to speak from the books, and said: "I was born the seventh, in the first week, while justice and righteousness still lasted.

93.4 And, after me, in the second week, great injustice will arise, and deceit will have sprung up. And in it there will be the First End, and in it, a man will be saved. And after it has ended, iniquity will grow, and He will make a law for the sinners.

93.5 And after this in the third week, at its end, a man will be chosen as the Plant of Righteous Judgment, and after him will come the Plant of Righteousness, forever.

93.6 And after this, in the fourth week, at its end, visions of the righteous and Holy will be seen, and a Law for All Generations, and an enclosure will be made for them.

93.7 And after this, in the fifth week, at its end, a House of Glory and Sovereignty will be built forever.

93.8 And after this, in the sixth week, all those who live in it will be blinded. And the hearts of them all, lacking wisdom, will sink into impiety. And in it, a man will ascend, and at its end the House of Sovereignty will be burnt with fire. And in it the whole race of the chosen root will be scattered.

93.9 And after this, in the seventh week, an apostate generation will arise. And many will be its deeds - but all its deeds will be apostasy.

93.10 And at its end, the Chosen Righteous, from the Eternal Plant of Righteousness, will be chosen, to whom will be given sevenfold teaching, concerning his whole creation.

The other thing of course is that over a hundred phrases in the New Testament find precedence in Enoch and Enoch is quoted directly in Jude. So, to the New Testament - Enoch is authentic. The difficulty after 2,000 years is piecing together "the" Enoch.

There are two other Enochs - one is Slavonic, 2 Enoch, and the other, 3 Enoch, is a Hebrew Apocalypse of that name written by Rabbi Ishmael in 132 A.D. (approx). Because of that date and known authorship, 3 Enoch isn't relevant to this project.

1 Enoch - is the oldest and most complete. It was first discovered in Ethiopia (in the Ge'ez language) where it had been preserved but was then confirmed by the finding of the 200 B.C. Aramaic copies at Qumran. 1 Enoch as found in Qumran is the best candidate for the one referenced by Jude. It is also the one with the most complete book of astronomy and thus gives us a window to date the original from which it was copied.

2 Enoch is also quite interesting, particularly in its prophesies concerning the 7,000 years allowed for Adamic man (including the 1,000 perfect era at the end.).

2 Enoch

An entirely different Enoch manuscript has survived in the Slavonic language. This text, dubbed "2 Enoch" and commonly called "the Slavonic Enoch," was discovered in 1886 by a professor Sokolov in the archives of the Belgrade Public Library. It appears that just as the Ethiopic Enoch ("1 Enoch") had escaped the sixth-century Church suppression of Enoch texts in the Mediterranean area, so a Slavonic Enoch had survived far away, long after the originals from which it was copied were destroyed or hidden away.

Specialists in the Enochian texts surmise that the missing original form which the Slavonic was copied was probably a Greek manuscript. This may have been, in turn, based on a Hebrew or Aramaic manuscript….

One of the most fascinating passages of the Slavonic Enoch is the account of the dramatization of eternity found in Chapter 33. As the world was made in six days, so its history would be accomplished in 6,000 years, and this would be followed by 1,000 years of rest, when the balance of conflicting moral forces has been struck and human life has reached the ideal state. (A reference of this conflict is also found in The War Scroll, a future battle between the Sons of Light and the Sons of Darkness. These writings were recently discovered in Qumran Cave 1, which are part of the collection of The Dead Sea Scrolls). At the close of this 7,000 year cycle would begin the 8th Eternal Day, when time should be no more…

Personally, I believe the 1000 year reign of Christ on physical earth (Revelation 20:2-3) is the seventh thousand referred to in 2 Enoch, because it precedes the eternal, new heaven and earth (Revelation 21.)

However, Enoch – like Revelation – contains many metaphors and parables and is therefore particularly difficult to read.



TOPICS: Extended News; Miscellaneous
KEYWORDS:
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-100101-150151-200201-232 next last
Your input to this research project is much appreciated! Thank you!
1 posted on 08/27/2003 11:33:41 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: Nakatu X; Right Wing Professor; RadioAstronomer; PatrickHenry; general_re; js1138; ...
As promised, here is a consolidation of the research so far on the project initiated within the previous thread.

Your "digs" will be most appreciated!

2 posted on 08/27/2003 11:35:12 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Alamo-Girl
Your diligence is astonishing. Here's a big ol' bump.
3 posted on 08/27/2003 11:49:35 AM PDT by PatrickHenry (Hic amor, haec patria est.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: PatrickHenry
Thank you so much for the kudos! Hugs!
4 posted on 08/27/2003 11:51:53 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: Alamo-Girl
I am half way thru your post and entranced. Fascinated. And bummed at my lack of knowledge.

I will help keep this bumped. I'm not a researcher....but would love to read this book that was cursed and left out of our current Bible. The mistranslation of the Kind James version of the Bible (my version), leaving out the words, 'the Elect One', ( God's words regarding his beloved Son, Jesus the Christ ), is unsettling, somehow. To think that the authors of the King James version were seeking agreement between the books of the New Testament (Mark and Matthew with Luke) seems so wrongful. Especially when you consider their letter to King James explaining their efforts and dedication to true transcription.

This is going to be fascinating Alamo-girl. I look forward to following this thread.<p.Ah well-back to devouring your post.... :^)

5 posted on 08/27/2003 11:51:55 AM PDT by Republic
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Alamo-Girl; fortheDeclaration; Commander8; editor-surveyor; xzins; Gal.5:1; RnMomof7; Fred Mertz; ..
Wow....Enoch...!!

Hebrews chapter 11-13......and the epistle of Jude........Revelation 22,.......Deuteronomy 32 and 33...!!!

'Rapture' time!!!........Psalm 71

Amen,......Maranatha!!

(Romans 10:17)

:-)

6 posted on 08/27/2003 11:53:58 AM PDT by maestro
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Republic
Thank you so much for your interest and for your encouragement!

Truly, I believe you can rely on the King James version. I doubt there were many such substitutions. Moreover, these days it is convenient to use a parallel Bible and research the actual language on the internet to settle any differences to one's own satisfaction!

There are copies of Enoch online, but I much prefer the printed versions in the Old Testament Pseudepigrapha by Charlesworth - because it contains a lot commentary on the translation, history, etc.

7 posted on 08/27/2003 12:01:23 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: maestro
Maranatha indeed, dear maestro! Thank you so much for your post and the Scripture references!!!
8 posted on 08/27/2003 12:02:48 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: Alamo-Girl
bump
9 posted on 08/27/2003 12:13:38 PM PDT by fishtank
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Alamo-Girl
Knock knock.
Who's there?
Enoch.
Enoch who?
Enough for you.

[Okay, okay. I know it's dumb.]

10 posted on 08/27/2003 12:16:11 PM PDT by PatrickHenry (Hic amor, haec patria est.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: Alamo-Girl
..Old Testament Pseudepigrapha by Charlesworth..

I suppose that first I must look up 'pigrapha', lol, and then I'm off to read Jude. Will follow all referenced made here to Bible verse as all of this is new (and very exciting) to me.

Will follow your link to 1 Enoch online first, but may decide to follow your lead and purchase the book by Charlesworth...where would you suggest I get this? Thanks.

Will look forward to watching the astronomy/Enoch development as it happens here and am still mistified by the ' the Elect One'.

Thanks Alamo-girl, this lurking FReeper is going to enjoy this adventure.

11 posted on 08/27/2003 12:21:28 PM PDT by Republic
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: Alamo-Girl
bump.
12 posted on 08/27/2003 12:33:16 PM PDT by js1138
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: fishtank
Thank you so much for bumping by!
13 posted on 08/27/2003 12:34:31 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: PatrickHenry
LOLOLOL! Thank you for the chuckle!
14 posted on 08/27/2003 12:35:47 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: Republic
bump for later reading.
15 posted on 08/27/2003 12:36:25 PM PDT by ImaGraftedBranch (Education starts in the home. Education stops in the public schools)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: Alamo-Girl
Enoch is quoted directly in the book of Jude and about 100 passages in the New Testament are rooted in the 1 Enoch phrasing.

Can you provide "chapter and verse" on some of these references? I am afraid, after 30 years of studying the Bible, I have yet to find such references. But, if you can point me to some, I would appreciate it.

Thanks

BTW - similarity in phrasing is not the same thing as a quote - for the record.

16 posted on 08/27/2003 12:36:39 PM PDT by LiteKeeper
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Republic
Thank you oh so very much for your enthusiasm and your interest! I'm sure you'll enjoy the adventure and please let us know here if you uncover something you'd like to share.

Amazon has the Pseudepigrapha. The one on the link is the first volume, there is another on the Old Testament and additional books on the New Testament. Enoch (1, 2 and 3) are all in Volume 1.

17 posted on 08/27/2003 12:39:16 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: Alamo-Girl; Patrick Henery
Methuselah lived longer than anyone else recorded in the Bible (he lived 969 years) yet he died before his Father.
18 posted on 08/27/2003 12:50:15 PM PDT by Syncro
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: js1138
Thank you so much for bumping by!
19 posted on 08/27/2003 12:58:42 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: LiteKeeper
Thank you so much for your question!

Here is the direct reference from the book of Jude:

And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard [speeches] which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. - Jude 1:14-15

Charlesworth lists the following as examples where the New Testament thought was influenced: Matthew, Luke, John, Acts, Romans, 1 and 2 Corinthians, Ephesians, Colossians, 1 and 2 Thessalonians, 1 Timothy, Hebrews, 1 John. The scope of influence he says includes the Messiah, the Son of Man, the messianic kingdom, demonology, the future, resurrection, final judgment, the whole eschatological theater, and symbolism.

I will need to do some more digging to find the specific 100 instances mentioned in the excerpt quoted above.

20 posted on 08/27/2003 1:06:57 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: Syncro
Indeed. Enoch was the first to be raptured, i.e. not taste physical death:

And Enoch walked with God: and he [was] not; for God took him – Genesis 5:24

Thank you for your post!

21 posted on 08/27/2003 1:09:40 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: Alamo-Girl
:>)
22 posted on 08/27/2003 1:23:56 PM PDT by Syncro
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: LiteKeeper
Here’s a sampling of some of the information out there, please let me know if you would like more:

Enoch and 1 John

Enoch and Hebrews

These are from a “fringe” website that gives verse to verse comparisons:

Page 1

Page 2


23 posted on 08/27/2003 1:50:20 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: Alamo-Girl
I've read this book and yes the Astronomy portion really interested me. We have an amatuer astronomy kit now and I'm going to be using it in our homeschooling this year. I am definitely interested in taking a closer look at Enoch since it also seems that his Lunar and Solar calendars are right on. It's nice to run across someone with this interest also ^_^.
24 posted on 08/27/2003 2:42:36 PM PDT by kuma
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: All
For anyone interested, I just received by email this link to a website which analyzes the levels of heavens in Enoch's translation, archangels, orders, etc.

Mazzaroth

It has a heavy astrology bent but nevertheless gives some helpful tables and summaries.

25 posted on 08/27/2003 2:49:56 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: kuma
Wow! I'm so glad you posted and shared your interest and background in the subject. I look forward to any information you may have for the project and would love to read your views!
26 posted on 08/27/2003 2:54:17 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: Alamo-Girl
The other thing of course is that over a hundred phrases in the New Testament find precedence in Enoch and Enoch is quoted directly in Jude. So, to the New Testament - Enoch is authentic.

No, this does not mean that Enoch (the book) is authentic. It does indicate that many first century Jews were familiar with the book. It could also mean that Jude considers the one quote authentic. But, this is not even close to saying that the whole book (even in first century form) should be considered canonical.

I say this, though, because these words concern me:

Why is the authenticity of Enoch relevant to Christians today?

But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, [even] to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. - Daniel 12:4

Obviously we are in a time of unprecedented knowledge and travel, thus many have been curious whether the hidden text mentioned in Daniel has already been revealed to any extent.

Some have proposed that the Bible Code (Equidistant Letter Sequence) is the hidden text mentioned in Daniel. So far I believe the search has been limited to a simple matrix but there was some talk of looking for any patterns in a holographic. As I recall, Newton suspected there was a code in the Pentateuch.

Still others have mentioned the book of Enoch which was rediscovered in 1773 in Ethopia and further authenticated by copies found at Qumran (Dead Sea Scrolls).


I am concerned that you're chasing after a brand of gnosticism instead of true christianity. The Bible certainly has many details which create curiousity in our minds (e.g., What does Paul mean by "baptism for the dead"? What exactly happened between Michael and the Devil, as touched on in Jude? Who were the "sons of God" in Genesis 6? What was Enoch's life like?), and many of the pseudopigraphal books dwell upon these obscurities.

The point of the Bible, however, is to testify of Jesus Christ and our salvation in him:

John 5:39 "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;"

Luke 24:27 Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures.

Acts 10:43 "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins."

So, I suggest that you stop running after secret knowledge and Bible codes, instead sticking with the plain message of the Bible about Jesus and salvation.
27 posted on 08/27/2003 3:17:14 PM PDT by jam137 (see my FR homepage for CA Recall perspectives)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Alamo-Girl
I've already done up Lunar Calendars in a graphics program based on passages in the bible. When I read the book of Enoch his Lunar Calendar seemed to mirror those passages perfectly, although admittedly I need to research this in more depth to be sure. Haven't gotten around to it yet cause the bible calendar took me two months of steady work so I gotta gear up before I'm ready for another big project like this.

As far as the Solar Calendar is concerned we use the Gregorian (not Julian) Calendar. Julian missed the adjustments needed that Gregory made up for by making a leap year to add an extra day. Enoch however did not make the same mistake as Julian and includes this adjustment. I would like to eventually do up Lunar, Solar & overall Astronomy graphics for his book.

It's more than a passing interest and it's great to meet someone like-minded. Unfortunately as you pointed out many of the other people out there interested in this are "fringe". This book has been misused & abused for anything and everything such as Aryan race beliefs to astrology and now Ecumenicalism (all religions are the same). Someone out there always seems to have an agenda and rarely can they just enjoy something bigger than themselves. Something that has survived millenia to tell it's story and give us a glimpse of ourselves and what Jesus may have meant when he said "As in the days of Noah".
28 posted on 08/27/2003 3:24:18 PM PDT by kuma
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: Alamo-Girl
"One rule of dating used by modern scholars, is that if anything is prophesied which turns out to be correct, it must have been written after the event, because otherwise the author would really have to have been a prophet!"

Kind of hard to call anyone with an opinion like that a "scholar."

29 posted on 08/27/2003 3:32:38 PM PDT by editor-surveyor ( . Best policy RE: Environmentalists, - ZERO TOLERANCE !!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Alamo-Girl
"...but I much prefer the printed versions in the Old Testament Pseudepigrapha by Charlesworth - because it contains a lot commentary on the translation, history, etc"

Interesting point of view. My preferences run to the other pole: I prefer to read from a text that is devoid of (potentially erroneous) comments that often distract, and devalue a reading session.

30 posted on 08/27/2003 3:38:35 PM PDT by editor-surveyor ( . Best policy RE: Environmentalists, - ZERO TOLERANCE !!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: Alamo-Girl
Ordinarily I'd bump by saying, "God be with you." Now I'll bump by saying that "God IS with you." Thanks.
31 posted on 08/27/2003 3:46:58 PM PDT by doxteve
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: Alamo-Girl; Victoria Delsoul; blam; PatrickHenry; RadioAstronomer; 2sheep; VadeRetro; RightWhale

Fascinating thread, thanks for posting.

Graham Hancock has been delving into this type of archaeoastronomy for years. You might find some leads there (amongst some pretty interesting, though wild speculation, it must be admitted).

Another point in regard to your discussion of the anti-Hellenistic Essenes, and the inclusion in Enoch of astronomical theories attributed to the Greeks...

There are two frequent and very easily made errors in textual analyses of ancient manuscripts.

1. The confusion of the earliest known example of a manuscript or concept with the earliest possible example. In fact, the earliest known is the latest possible example, as earlier examples may have been (and quite likely, actually have been) lost to us, as that is how it usually goes with old things.

2. The idea that if manuscript A and manuscript B describe similar events, and A was produced prior to B, then B is therefore derived from A, and any differences are due to a corruption of A by B. This is an unfounded presumption against the possiblity of lost manuscripts C, D, E, etc., which might have been the sources for both A and B. Bad textual alanyses frequently ignore the possibility of literary missing links. Once such presumptions are disallowed, we see that questions as to the relative corruption of A and/or B from the original source remain unanswered.

32 posted on 08/27/2003 4:15:15 PM PDT by Sabertooth (Viva la 187!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Alamo-Girl
... the Essenes at Qumran were evidently piously anti-Hellenistic, which is to say they strongly resisted the influence of Greece – so much so they went into the wilderness. The other two main sects of Jews after they returned from Babylon were Pharisees and Sadducees. So, in terms of influence on the 1 Enoch book of astronomy – if it were a fabrication – the possible influences would include Babylonia and to a lesser extent Greece.

It may be possible that although the Essenes resisted Hellenistic culture in general, which was far too worldly for many pious people, they may nevertheless have accepted Hellenistic science, including astronomy, geometry, etc. These would be unlikely to conflict with their scriptures or their way of life. So the Enoch text might have been no problem for them, even if Enoch actually did get his astronomy from the Greeks.

33 posted on 08/27/2003 4:43:02 PM PDT by PatrickHenry (Hic amor, haec patria est.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Sabertooth
Hi Saber!!! Good post, thanks.

Did you have a good time? I guess you are tanned, rested, and ready. :-)

34 posted on 08/27/2003 5:52:45 PM PDT by Victoria Delsoul (The opinions I value are the ones from people I respectů the rest are just comic relief)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 32 | View Replies]

To: Victoria Delsoul

I had a great time, thanks. It was nice to get away.

35 posted on 08/27/2003 6:00:10 PM PDT by Sabertooth (If Proposition #187 were on the ballot this October, would Arnold or Tom vote for it again?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: Sabertooth
Well, at least this time wasn't as long as before. Lucky you that can afford it.

36 posted on 08/27/2003 6:03:58 PM PDT by Victoria Delsoul (The opinions I value are the ones from people I respectů the rest are just comic relief)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 35 | View Replies]

To: PatrickHenry
"even if Enoch actually did get his astronomy from the Greeks."

You do realize that Enoch lived 2000 years before there were any Greeks?

37 posted on 08/27/2003 6:50:54 PM PDT by editor-surveyor ( . Best policy RE: Environmentalists, - ZERO TOLERANCE !!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: editor-surveyor
You do realize that Enoch lived 2000 years before there were any Greeks?

This is from Alamo-Girl's essay at the start of this thread:

The oldest known Jewish work not included in the Bible is the Book of Enoch. This is a complex work, written in the third (or perhaps even the late fourth) century BCE, after the return from the Babylonian Exile and the establishment of the Second Jewish Commonwealth (6th-5th centuries BCE) and before the Maccabean revolt in 172 BCE. The oldest copies of the Book of Enoch, dating from the third century BCE, were discovered among the Dead Sea Scrolls (see below).

38 posted on 08/27/2003 6:58:44 PM PDT by PatrickHenry (Hic amor, haec patria est.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 37 | View Replies]

To: kuma; Alamo-Girl
Someone out there always seems to have an agenda and rarely can they just enjoy something bigger than themselves. Something that has survived millenia to tell it's story and give us a glimpse of ourselves and what Jesus may have meant when he said "As in the days of Noah".

In this case the 'agenda' is easily discerned; the book of Enoch is clear and specific on who and what the Nephilim were, and the modernists will not accept the very idea that the demons are the spirits of half human, half cherub beings. In fact, some try to deny the existance of demons at all.

39 posted on 08/27/2003 7:04:21 PM PDT by editor-surveyor ( . Best policy RE: Environmentalists, - ZERO TOLERANCE !!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: PatrickHenry
Yes, I read that, but Enoch, and the events described are from two millenia prior.
40 posted on 08/27/2003 7:09:14 PM PDT by editor-surveyor ( . Best policy RE: Environmentalists, - ZERO TOLERANCE !!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 38 | View Replies]

To: editor-surveyor
I haven't looked into the matter.
41 posted on 08/27/2003 7:12:26 PM PDT by PatrickHenry (Hic amor, haec patria est.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 40 | View Replies]

To: Alamo-Girl
Interesting! I will have to refer my dad to this post over the weekend.

I’ll post my thoughts once I am sure what they are.

Any references to the Book of Gad the Seerer? Always wanted to read that one.

42 posted on 08/27/2003 7:16:33 PM PDT by Harmless Teddy Bear (You walk in middle of road and you get crushed by some airhead vegetarian valley girl driving SUV)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: jam137
Thank you so much for sharing your concerns!

I've followed some of your posts and suspect we may have a similar view on many things - saved by faith not by works, inerrancy of Scripture, etc.

Certainly, exploring ancient manuscripts is not everyone's cup of tea, but I enjoy it a great deal.

43 posted on 08/27/2003 7:28:45 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: kuma
Thank you so much for your post! And congratulations on your work on the Lunar Calendar! I do hope you'll share your findings with us here.

You might be interested in checking out this analysis of the Enochian calendar. It was the second part of the Latter Day Saints article excerpted above.

Indeed, the book of Enoch has become extremely popular with fringe philosophies and new agers. It is challenging to weed through all those hits when searching online in order filter down the historical information we need for this research. LOL! Oh well, the effort has been worth it.

Great catch on the phrase "in the days of Noah!" Thank you!

44 posted on 08/27/2003 7:38:48 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: editor-surveyor
Thank you so much for your post!

Kind of hard to call anyone with an opinion like that a "scholar."

Indeed. That is the mindset of scientific materialism -i.e. look for the natural explanation only. In the extreme, it leads to the shocking consequence of strong determinism.

45 posted on 08/27/2003 7:43:41 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: editor-surveyor
I prefer to read from a text that is devoid of (potentially erroneous) comments that often distract, and devalue a reading session.

An excellent point. The Amplified Bible is very distracting to me. Charlesworth's is presented more like the traditional Schofield Bible with ample footnotes on each page of translation.

46 posted on 08/27/2003 7:46:02 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: doxteve
Thank you oh so very, very much doxteve!!! Your words are a treasure to me. May God abundantly bless you in everything!
47 posted on 08/27/2003 7:47:52 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: Thinkin' Gal; Jeremiah Jr
-
48 posted on 08/27/2003 7:48:42 PM PDT by Sir Gawain (When does the next Crusade start?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Sabertooth
Thank you so very much for the lead and the two cautions on interpretation! They will be most helpful in this effort. Hugs!
49 posted on 08/27/2003 7:50:08 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 32 | View Replies]

To: PatrickHenry
Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts on how Greek astronomy might have influenced the Essenes! It might be complicated however by the fact that the book of astronomy is recalling what the angels were describing to Enoch in his heavenly travels - thus it is a mixture of theology and astronomy in the text.
50 posted on 08/27/2003 7:55:32 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-100101-150151-200201-232 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson