Dell's Software License Policy; Dude, you're getting screwed.

Cypherpunks (via Slashdot) ^ | 28 Aug 2003 | Ian Goldberg and Kat Hanna

[Eala]

Kat and I just received the Dell Inspiron 5100 notebook we ordered from Dell Canada. We quickly ran across problems.

I pushed the power button to turn on computer. I got the Dell POST screen, then a screen from Dell (Photo):

SOFTWARE LICENSES

- Before using your computer, read all of the software license agreements that came with each program that you ordered. There may be several agreements to examine. To comply with the terms and conditions of the software license agreements, you must consider any CD or diskette set of Dell-installed software as BACKUP copies of the software installed on your computer's hard-disk drive.

- If you did not order Dell-installed software for this computer, or if you do not accept all the terms of the licenses, please call the customer assistance telephone number listed in your system documentation.

Press any key on the keyboard to indicate that you have read all of the software licenses and agree to their terms.

Be Direct TM
Dell TM
www.dell.com

But there are no license agreements in the box that the computer came in. [There are some shrinkwrapped CD containers, but the "Terms and Conditions of Sale (CANADA)" that came with the invoice says:

"7. Software. All software is provided subject to the license agreement that is part of the package. Customer agrees that it will be bound by the license agreement once the package is opened or its seal is broken. Dell does not warrant any software under this Agreement. Warranties, if any, for the software are contained in the license agreement that governs its purchase and use."

I've never agreed to those Terms and Conditions, to my knowledge, but I assume they think they're enforceable, so I can't open up the shrinkwrap to see if the license agreements are in there, without automatically agreeing to them.]

So I called the only Dell number I could find on my documentation (1-800-847-4096) and spoke to a customer support representative. I told her what was on the screen, and told her I couldn't find the license agreements I'm required to read and agree to before pressing any key.

She put me on hold while she looked into where the license agreements might be, and eventually transferred me to technical support. The tech support agent told me her database was down, so she couldn't look up anything at all (I hadn't even told her what the problem was yet), and I'd have to call back in an hour.

I call back, and speak to a tech support woman. She says: "press Tab." I explain that I can't without saying I've read and agreed to documents I don't have. She says "press page down". Same problem. She says "scroll down". I explain it's not a Windows screen. She says "insert any Dell-shipped CD". I exlpain the problem of opening the CD packaging.

She insists I have to press a key. I ask her if she really means that I have to agree to the licenses before it's at all possible that i've read them. She says "yes". I explain that that's not acceptable, and ask for her supervisor.

Her supervisor insists it's a Customer Care issue, and not tech support, and that there's nothing he can do. He can't explain why they sent me to him. He enters my info into the call log databse, and I go to call back Customer Care.

So back into the hold queue I go.

I'm finally connected to a Customer Care representative. [Pretty much each sentence in the following was interspersed with long, long times on hold.]

She looked up the call log to get the background info. She insists she doesn't have copies of the agreements, and that I'm supposed to go online and look them up myself. (?!) She says to use a public computer if I have to. I ask how to know what companies have software on my disk. She goes away for a bit, and says she doesn't have that information, and there's nothing they can do. [And there's no supervisor available.] She asks why I don't want to agree to the license. I explain I haven't *seen* it. She says "it just says you won't copyright any of the files". I ignore the mistake, and explain that licensing agreements are long, long documents that say much more than that, and that anyway, the screen says that I have to have *read* it.

Eventually she does manage to connect me to Alan Burley (Manager, Customer Service).

He said he installs things all the time without reading the license agreements. He says I should just do that. I ask if he's really telling me to lie and to agree to legal documents I haven't seen. He says I don't have to, but the only thing he can do is take the computer back. He says that it's the first time this issue has escalated. He does manage to tell me what software is on the system, and says I need to go to those companies' websites to get their agreements. [Never mind that I need the OEM version and that's unlikely to be there.] I ask _him_ what if this was my first computer. He said I would have to go to a library or a friend's house. He really couldn't send me the agreements that Dell insists I read and agree to before using the computer.

He said he couldn't give me his phone number or mailing address, and that he didn't have a boss who could talk to me.

So we've got nothing left to do but send it back. He says he'll send waybills, and will refund the cost of the computer, including the original shipping charge, and won't charge a restocking fee. We will have to pay for the shipping back to the Oakville depot. I figured we could just run it by there ourselves (it's not too far), but he said that that's not possible. (I don't understand why. We'll probably try, anyway.)

It's crazy that it came to this. If they had said *anything* reasonable, we would have been happy to just install Linux on the thing and be done with it. But they were saying that anyone who uses a Dell laptop (with this startup screen) *has* to just lie about having read the licenses, and just blindly agree to them. That's unacceptable enough that it's going back.

It's also interesting to note that everyone except Mr. Burley assumed that I was talking about a Microsoft screen which included the Windows EULA, until I told them otherwise. This was a Dell screen, with no EULA, and I'm surprised that none of these people were aware of its existence.

After all this, we *did* try to boot off a Linux install CD. That just took us to the same screen as before. So we had to go into the BIOS so that it would try to boot off the CD before the hard disk, but after we did that, Windows started to boot, without having displayed the "press a key to agree" screen. We quickly powered the machine down before Windows started. [Though now you no longer get the "press a key to agree" screen when you turn it on, even with the BIOS settings back the way they were.]

This took from around 3pm to around 8:30pm today. I'm just bewildered that Dell corporate policy is that users need to lie to use their new laptops, and to agree to legal agreements that it's completely impossible to have read. This is the next level above "click-through" licenses. Now, they figure no one reads the EULAs anyway, so why bother even providing a copy?

[Cultural Jihad]

Would that we all had such little problems in life! No one is forcing anyone to purchase a Dell. If anyone has a big problem with the EULA agreements, they can always ship it back.

[pointsal]

Say Dude, you didn't bend far enough..........

[Khurkris]

Dude...get a custom built computer from a local shop. Just ask them to use all brand-name hardware and supply you with all cd's of software they install. Yhey will be happy to do this, give you an equal or better price and you will know who you are dealing with. Local shops are the way to go. They appreciate the business and will be there if you have any questions/problems.

Trust me, this works the best.

[roadcat]

Sounds like the old witch trials in centuries past. To prove you're not a demon, they tie you up and dunk you in a river. After a while, if you come up then you're a demon and burned at the stake. If you don't come up then you're deemed innocent, but unfortunately screwed.

You're a trooper, I don't know anyone who reads or cares about the fine print in licensing, because it's taken for granted that we get screwed.

[Gorzaloon]

Would that we all had such little problems in life! No one is forcing anyone to purchase a Dell. If anyone has a big problem with the EULA agreements, they can always ship it back.

My problem with Dell is not those agreements, because I am a crank. When I buy something, I absolutely own it, and am not interested in listening to any legal fantasies to the contrary. My property, My Laws.

No, the issue I have with Dell is their firewall-pounding spyware, SUPPORT.EXE, and I feel strongly enough about it to never buy another.

BTW, folks, this is my first post running LINUX!

One machine totally stripped of MS, six more to go.

[RushingWater]

Did you ask if this help center was in India? Not that you would get an honest answer. I hear that call center employees in India watch US sitcoms so they can lie about it if the caller asks what city they are in or where are they from.

[njmaugbill]

Dude,
I didn't have this problem with my 12" Aluminum skinned G4 Powerbook. (Apple for you'se not from NJ).

bill From Nutley

[Eala]

Agreed. And that's what they did. But IMHO any corporation presenting such a Catch-22 situation deserves the bad publicity.

My previous work laptop was a Dell and even though the driver support for Win2K (it came with Win98) was, well, mediocre, I liked it well enough. But sadly, the mega-corporation that recently bought my employer has upgraded all our machines with cheap Compaqs -- big (too big to use in airline steerage class) and heavy. The one I liked most was a Toshiba -- for its keyboard.

[LoneRangerMassachusetts]

This took from around 3pm to around 8:30pm today. I'm just bewildered that Dell corporate policy is that users need to lie to use their new laptops, and to agree to legal agreements that it's completely impossible to have read. This is the next level above "click-through" licenses. Now, they figure no one reads the EULAs anyway, so why bother even providing a copy?

You wasted your time from around 3pm to around 8:30pm today.

You wouldn't be able to comprehend the hidden meaning of the agreement anyway. A roomful of Philadelphia lawyers would have a constitutional convention over its interpretation. The agreement is there for Dell's protection, not yours. They are bound by limits in the Uniform Commercial Code that gives you certain protections. Dell has to compete with other companies who claim to have better services. Why waste your time? The computer will be obsolete in three to four years anyways.

[zook]

A long time ago in business law class, I learned that no contract is enforceable if it is signed under duress. (Not that I'm a lawyer or anything.) I mean, every time I view a DVD I see a screen telling me all this stuff I can't do with my DVD. I just laugh. If I want to show the thing to a hall full of oil rig workers, I'll damned well do it!

[owl]

Send your tale to Michael Dell. Sometimes CEOs don't know this stuff is happening and they really care. I've gotten some dramatic results by going to the top.

[go star go]

send it back. it's obvious that you don't want software so what the hell do you need a computer for?

[Eala]

BTW, folks, this is my first post running LINUX!

Congratulations! Which distro and version? My primary Internet machine has been a RedHat system of one version or another for, uh, well, years now... I hate the "one and only one desktop" that Windows forces on you.

[proxy_user]

If you don't like it, go to eBay. Look up seller dell_financial_services. Buy a refurbished computer with no software for a bargain price. Load it up with Linux or FreeBSD.

[MarkL]

I went through something like that back around 1996 or so... I found a mail order company that had a money back guaranty on their systems, and they told me that it was compatible with the version of Unix that I wanted to run on it (I think it might have been Microport, but I can't remember off-hand). Anyway, when I ordered it, I told them that I did not want an OS installed on it, because I was going to be installing Unix, and I didn't want to pay for an OS that I wasn't going to use... I was told that I could NOT buy a system without an OS. That I would be charged for it, weather I used it or not (it was because of the "per CPU" licensing agreement that MS had back then, which was later determined to be illegal). So I relented, and it shipped with Windows 95. Of course, the first thing I did was wipe the system drive.

Anyway, after 4 days of trying to get Unix to work on the system, I finally had enough. I called them to get an RMA to ship it back. I was informed that I would get a refund, minus the original shipping charge, and minus the cost of the Windows OS!I explained that I had never used Windows, had never even booted the computer to Windows, that I had never opened the Windows software package that shipped with the system. I was told that it didn't matter. By starting the computer, I had agreed to the MS license agreement. I insisted that's not possible, if the agreement was never presented to me. The fact is that I booted to a Unix floppy disk, and wiped the system in order to install Unix before it had ever even attempted to boot to Windows. They told me it didn't matter, and I got the same story all the way up the food chain in management.

Well, to make a really long story even longer, I finally got American Express involved, and told them about what was happening, and I refused to pay for anything. They agreed that I was being treated unfairly, and really worked things out for me. While I was originally willing to pay the shipping costs both ways, thanks to AMEX, I got a full refund of the original shipping, as well as the Windows95.

Believe me, YOU aren't being screwed by those damn license agreements. Have you ever tried to read one? Jeez! For instance, when you install MS Windows 2000 Server, you have to hit the page down about 20 times, and it even lapses into French for our Canadian friends! And it's a good thing that they insist that they're only licensing the software to you to use, not selling it... By doing that, they can make the outrageous claims that pretty much say that it might work, and it might only do a little bit of what they say it's supposed to do, and that it's not their fault if it doesn't work and that you will never hold them responsible for anything... etc... If they were to try to "sell" a product like that, state AGs would be all over them for marketing and advertising violations.

Mark

[Eala]

People, people, people! Please take a minute and look at the posting. I did not write this; this is not my experience; I simply posted it for your edification. If you have comments for the author, follow the link.

[Eala]

Please see #17.

[MarkL]

Dude, I didn't have this problem with my 12" Aluminum skinned G4 Powerbook. (Apple for you'se not from NJ).

I'm shocked to be saying this, but if I can get all the network monitoring and management apps I need to work on an i-Book or a Powerbook, I'll be switching... I made the mistake of getting a Dell Inspiron (not really a mistake, but I needed a DVD-ROM, and at the time Latitudes weren't available with them). The problem was that the OS is WinXP (WindowsME was the option... No official Dell support for Linux, Win2K or Win98), and it's just unstable as hell, and most of my network apps (like Sniffer) won't work under XP. So I had to use Partition Magic and do my best to get Win98 drivers to work, as well as getting Linux on it...

A buddy of mine picked up an i-Book 700, and I was astonished. The damn thing is every bit as fast as a 2GHz P-4! Maybe even faster.

So I may be going over to "the dark side."

Mark

[Gorzaloon]

Congratulations! Which distro and version? My primary Internet machine has been a RedHat system of one version or another for, uh, well, years now... I hate the "one and only one desktop" that Windows forces on you.

To the abyss with Windows. XP did me a favor in that it made me get off my tail and FINALLY try Linux. I got Red Hat 9. It came yesterday, I read the book at bedtime, and it _slid_ into the machine (An old spare P3/733). I carefully noted all my hardware and network settings and Ethernet MAc, etc..etc.. but it was TOTALLY not needed. Everything set itself up, configured my WAN connections, and the LAN as well.

All I did was feed it CDROMs and GLOAT!

And it has ***EVERYTHING***, Office suite, three different ways of accessing newsgroups, Mozilla, its own FTP, etc..etc...there is just nothing lef to buy or do.

Next comes my laptop, then the Dell, and eventually the whole house will be clean of bloated spyware.

!!!!ESCAPE FROM REDMOND!!!! Courtesy of a penguin...hahaha.

[badfreeper]

I'd avoid the customer service call centre route entirely. Call their head office directly (you might have to call their US main office) and ask if you can speak to someone in the legal department. That'll get you some attention from people who are more motivated when it comes to resolving problems.

[FLAMING DEATH]

Or, you can do what I did...build the thing yourself. I did it, and it was a lot easier than I thought it would be.

2.0 Ghz, 512 MB ram, 60gb hard drive, CD burner, modem.

$320, and I know EXACTLY how my machine is put together, and EXACTLY what I've got on the HD at all times.

[SamAdams76]

Or better yet, build it yourself. It's not as complicated as one might think. All you need is a screwdriver and a rudimentary knowledge of what goes where (which can be obtained by a $20 book on building your own PC at any bookstore).

Basically you just get a case (many "bare bones" kits include motherboard, power supply and maybe a floppy) and then you add memory, hard drive, CD-ROM/DVD drives, video card, audio card, etc. Best way to do it is to install the CD-ROM and hard drive first and get your OS loaded. Then install your components one at a time. Usually your computer will recognize your new hardware and walk you through the steps to load software/drivers.

It can basically be done on a rainy Saturday afternoon. Then you will be assured of a good system and you will have the know-how to deal with any problem that might crop up. You will be at the mercy of the computer repair shop no longer.

[Eala]

!!!!ESCAPE FROM REDMOND!!!! Courtesy of a penguin...hahaha.

I am jealous. We have a copy of the RH9.0 ISO images at work, but it looks like the disk #2 image is corrupted; it's missing files necessary to install. So I'm stuck with RH7.3 for at least a few more days. *\:-(

And BTW, my work and residence both have Redmond addresses -- Redmond, WA.
From the belly of the beast...

[FLAMING DEATH]

Yeah, what he said.

[mlmr]

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/875386/posts

My Dell experience is posted here. Probably worst experience in my life....and heck I used to VAR with IBM. Think of how bad that was!!

[TechJunkYard]

A comment I saw on Slashdot today said, in essence, if they want you to agree to something and won't (or can't) show you what you're agreeing to, the agreement is invalid.

The customer tried in good faith to get an answer and Dell couldn't help him. I'd fire off a note to Michael Dell which documents the problem, and use the computer anyway.

Re-format the drive and install Linux. EULAs be damned.

[mlmr]

On that thread this is the gist of what happened to me:


: Wright is right!

I would be happy to. I ordered the computer and installed it. It had video card problems immediately and a new card was sent out. Eventually a customer service rep came out to install the card. (this is only after hours on the phone and on my knees in front of the mother board as a woman from India read to me from her troubleshooting manual. sigh!!) Blue screens continued with Bios errors. The cusotmer service rep said he would not touch anything except the video card even though on the phones I was told he would also investigate the bios issues and the blue screens. He took me aside and said, exchange the machine.

After more hours on the phone they finally sent out a new machine. It arrived around twelve days ago and I scheduled someone to help me switch towers today. I opened the box and the config is wrong on the new box and the Read write CD thingie is not installed.

Soooo I call Dell and ask what to do. They initally tell me that they will send out a new Read write CD drive and send someone to install it. then they sent me over to customer service to set this up. This happened twice before Iwas actually connected to customer service. The nice man from India told me that yes, he would send out the Read Write part...but only after I sent back the first comptuer because there was only one service contract and it had to be transfered to the new computer before anything could be done.

Deep breath!!

Then they argued about sending me a rep to install it too.

I went back to customer service and told them I wanted my money back and to take both computers. They said no becasue the first comptuer more than a month out.
I was transferred to a man who refused to consider taking the computers back for twenty minutes. He would not even negotiate with me. He refused to transfer me to a superior or to let me talk to anyone else, including his manager. I was in tears by the end of our conversation. He told me that the exchagne could not be made. He then put me on hold for the second time, to review things, and then made the return.
After he processed the return paperwork, I told him that he didn't have to put me through this...and instead of having a disappointed customer, Dell now has an appalled ex-customer.

I found the customer service to be appalling and heard regret and I am sorry so much in the past month....it was awful.

I certainly would appreciate feedback.


28 posted on 03/25/2003 5:04 PM EST by mlmr
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies | Report Abuse ]

---

To: mlmr

[TechJunkYard]

!!!!ESCAPE FROM REDMOND!!!!

Congratulations! Another one breaks free from the chains!

[freekitty]

The only computers I have ever owned are custom built.

Very few problems and if there are, the guys are ready and willing to fix them.

[eno_]

Yes, it takes a VERY small amount of time and effort to get exactly what you want. And the experience of putting a machine together will save you MANY HOURS later if anything goes wrong.

You don't see soldiers calling tech support if their guns jam. PCs are the business equivalent of a rifle. Anyone who doesn't know how to take care of their rifle is screwed in any bad situation.

[hoot2]

"Now, they figure no one reads the EULAs anyway, so why bother even providing a copy? "

Audio

[July 4th]

That's a great idea, unless you need a notebook, as these people had purchased.

[George W. Bush]

BTW, folks, this is my first post running LINUX! One machine totally stripped of MS, six more to go.

Congratulations. No more spyware, security holes, daily virus attacks Windows software for you...

[hoot2]

"BTW, folks, this is my first post running LINUX! "

Audio

[getmeouttaPalmBeachCounty_FL]

No, the issue I have with Dell is their firewall-pounding spyware, SUPPORT.EXE, and I feel strongly enough about it to never buy another.*******

Can you tell me what that is? As you can easily guess, I'm still a novice with a computer. BTW, I also have a Dell.

[George W. Bush]

A long time ago in business law class, I learned that no contract is enforceable if it is signed under duress.

The user licenses have never really been challenged in court. There is some serious legal opinion that they're not really enforceable.

I'd think they could solve this by printing the license separately on request or making them available for download, perhaps with a link to a set of license agreements on the purchase page. Then you can read them all first, before buying and before agreeing.

It's a silly policy from Dell.

[Revolting cat!]

Lie-nooks? Bild yore own? I got a better ideerr! CP/M running on an Osborne computah! Sign all the agreements they have you sign, let them enforce 'em - both Adam Osborne and Gary Kildall are still deader than Elvis!

[nicollo]

Contracts of duress.

Folks here say, just don't buy it. Well, that's fine, but you can't swing a cat through a credit card machine without signing away your grandmother's favorite quilt.

The bastards down the street won't sell you a car without surrendering your social security number either. That's all duress and no private contract.

[Centurion2000]

I call back, and speak to a tech support woman. She says: "press Tab." I explain that I can't without saying I've read and agreed to documents I don't have. She says "press page down". Same problem. She says "scroll down". I explain it's not a Windows screen. She says "insert any Dell-shipped CD". I exlpain the problem of opening the CD packaging.

She probably said that with an Indian accent as well. We should all order a million of these computers and then send them back after raising this original question.

[Centurion2000]

and it's just unstable as hell, and most of my network apps (like Sniffer)

A good Java client will get you past most of the network monitoring tools by using their web based interfaces (NGenius, F5, Nokia, etc), you can use Snort on a Linux box as well. Not sure about the checkpoint management GUI but I'm pretty sure that it will run under linux and HP OpenViewOperations has a nice web client as well (I prefer the NNM/OVO guis under X windows).

Good luck.

[Centurion2000]

After he processed the return paperwork, I told him that he didn't have to put me through this...and instead of having a disappointed customer, Dell now has an appalled ex-customer.

You should send something to Dell regarding this; prefereably on a company letterhead indicating that you will never buy from them again.

[Jack Black]

Another shameless plug for RedHat 9.0 I bought it as a lark at Staples for $39. Now it's all I use. The Windows disk sits dormant. Among other cool things it correctly identified that the machine I'm using (a Dell!) is a two CPU jobbie and built a kernel to take advantage of it. That's an upgrade to Windows XP Professional and several hundred dollars from the Billionaire's company.

It also is FAR more stable. Despite a near religous devotion to downloading from the Windows Update site I still get 'blue screens of death'. Also there is some weird hate between windows networking, my Cable Modem and the VPN software I run. On the other hand RedHat just runs, and runs and seems to live happily on the network without a care.

Go figure. Try it. $39 is a pretty small investment. It has ALL the OFFICE TOOLS! I have a nice spreadsheet, a word processor, even a cheesy PowerPoint clone.

FULL DISCLOSURE: I have moderate past Unix experience.
(but haven't had to use it much to get RH 9 working).

Go for it.

[Calvin Locke]

I was told that I could NOT buy a system without an OS.

Shaking out the cobwebs...I believe one of the ways MS thwarted competition was to give a low licensing fee to pc
companies if *all* machines shipped with the MS OS. Might have been MS-DOS. It's been a while. So, if you wanted
DR-DOS you still got (and paid for) MS-DOS + the cost of DR-DOS.

[Slings and Arrows]

MEMO

FROM: Screwtape

TO: Contracts Division

Learn, guys.

[The Duke]

I've heard that Microsoft is sending threatening letters to businesses throughout Florida - this is certainly lighting a fire under us to switch to Linux ASAP!

[Poser]

This guy needs to get a life. (I hate that phrase)

I'll be picking up a new Dell in a few weeks. I think I'll call customer service and ask them the same questions. It should be a hoot.

I will push the button and take the blue pill (or was it the red pill?).

[Gorzaloon]

Dell has something to "Help" you. I am not sure what it does, because I killed it off as soon as I caught it trying to "Phone Home" to Dell every few minutes.
I whois-ed the IP Address it was trying to reach; It was Dell.
That, and a bunch of things like MS Mediaplayer8 and MS Messenger doing the same thing is what made me install Linux.
I just cannot trust anybody anymore.
BTW, Real Audio is notorious for that. Get rid of it.

[Gorzaloon]

I'll be picking up a new Dell in a few weeks. I think I'll call customer service and ask them the same questions. It should be a hoot.

I have two Dells here, but will not buy another.

Save some money, go to your local geek shop, and have one put together exactly the way you want it, without the spyware such as Dell's SUPPORT.EXE that is constantly phoning home.

It is better than Dell's warranty, because you can always go back to the local shop, and if all else fails, at least get the satisfaction of beating the guy up! :-)

[aruanan]

This was a Dell screen, with no EULA, and I'm surprised that none of these people were aware of its existence.

Come on, after all you went through, are you really surprised?