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Google sucked into RIAA/P2P fight
vnunet ^

Posted on 09/02/2003 9:34:50 AM PDT by chance33_98

Google sucked into RIAA/P2P fight

By Dinah Greek [02-09-2003] Search firm removes links to certain P2P sites following complaint from Kazaa creators

Popular search engine Google has been sucked into the ongoing legal battle between the Recording Industry of America (RIAA) and peer-to-peer sites (P2P). Following a court ruling in favour of the RIAA, Sharman Networks, the developers of the popular Kazaa P2P site, sent a letter to Google requesting that it remove links to certain sites.

Fifteen sites are thought to be in breach of the US Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA), and are said by Sharman Networks to be running unauthorised copies of its Kazaa P2P software.

The letter demanded that Google should "immediately remove or disable all access to the infringing material".

Google has now removed the URLs from its search listings.

In a statement posted at the foot of its search results, Google said: "In response to a complaint we received under the DMCA, we have removed eight result(s) from this page. If you wish, you may read the DMCA complaint for these removed results."

Google has also posted a link to the letter from Sharman.

It has listed the full URLs of the sites it has removed, of which all but three still worked when tested by vnunet.com.


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Crime/Corruption; Extended News; Miscellaneous; Technical
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1 posted on 09/02/2003 9:34:50 AM PDT by chance33_98
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To: chance33_98
The offending Google search: http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=kazaa+lite
2 posted on 09/02/2003 9:36:46 AM PDT by July 4th
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To: chance33_98
What other good search engine should we use?
3 posted on 09/02/2003 9:43:22 AM PDT by JOE6PAK (Ambivalent? Well, yes and no.)
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To: chance33_98
http://www.kazaagold.com
http://mp3download.com
http://www.kazaalite.tk
http://www.kaaza.com
http://doa2.host.sk
http://www.k-lite.tk
http://www.kazaa-file-sharing-downloads.com
http://www.kazaalite.nl
http://home/hccnet.nl/h.edskes/mirror.htm
http://www.kazaa-download.de
http://www.zeropaid.com
http//www.kazaalite.nl/downloads.htm
http://kazaa.infos-du-net.com
http://www.kazaa-lite.tk
http://www.kazaa-lite.info
4 posted on 09/02/2003 9:47:23 AM PDT by devnull (n/a)
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Now what if Google picks this thread up ?
5 posted on 09/02/2003 9:48:30 AM PDT by devnull (n/a)
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To: chance33_98
I don't see this doing them much good. Most people hear about the kazaalite sites by word of mouth anyway.
6 posted on 09/02/2003 9:48:48 AM PDT by Ex-Dem (Sic Semper Tyrannis)
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To: devnull
I way RIAA is headed, I wouldn't be surprised if they subpeona FR for your IP number ;)...
7 posted on 09/02/2003 9:52:01 AM PDT by Ex-Dem (Sic Semper Tyrannis)
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To: chance33_98
Google has also posted a link to the letter from Sharman.

It has listed the full URLs of the sites it has removed, of which all but three still worked when tested by vnunet.com.

Hoisted on their own petard. Their complaint lists all the sites anyway, and the publicity of the petition will only drive more traffic to them.

8 posted on 09/02/2003 9:58:25 AM PDT by Damocles (sword of...)
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To: chance33_98
Did I log onto Democratic Underground by mistake?
9 posted on 09/02/2003 10:30:49 AM PDT by Jack Wilson
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To: chance33_98
Google is not the only search engine. I don't think this will help very much. Sounds like RIAA is getting desperate.
10 posted on 09/02/2003 10:42:53 AM PDT by stainlessbanner
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To: Jack Wilson
Did I log onto Democratic Underground by mistake?

So you're saying you have a logon for DU??? Hmmmm...

11 posted on 09/02/2003 10:53:01 AM PDT by chance33_98 (WWJD - What would Jefferson Do?)
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To: chance33_98
I do check it out now and then out of curiosity. And this thread, which seems to support the idea that recorded music should be free, would fit right in.
12 posted on 09/02/2003 11:28:13 AM PDT by Jack Wilson
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To: Jack Wilson
And this thread, which seems to support the idea that recorded music should be free, would fit right in.

The minute the RIAA supports the idea that I can turn in my copies of vinyl and cassette for CDs, or that I can copy my DVDs for backup purposes, I'll start seeing things their way.

Otherwise, they're just a monopoly who is smarter than the pseudo-monopoly Microsoft - they knew to buy off the politicians before they went for the jugular.

13 posted on 09/02/2003 12:50:41 PM PDT by an amused spectator
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To: an amused spectator
The minute the RIAA supports the idea that I can turn in my copies of vinyl and cassette for CDs...

So when you buy a copy of a book, the publisher also has to supply free copies in any other medium you wish? Why?

or that I can copy my DVDs for backup purposes...

When you buy other products do you get a free copy thrown in with the deal? Like, 2 coffee makers, in case the first one breaks down? DVD's and CD's are among the most durable products you can purchase; why do you need a backup?

14 posted on 09/02/2003 1:09:17 PM PDT by Jack Wilson
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To: Jack Wilson
DVD's and CD's are among the most durable products you can purchase; why do you need a backup?

Your mind is made up. You're not debating - anyone could answer the question you posed. You shilling for money or for free?

15 posted on 09/02/2003 8:03:04 PM PDT by an amused spectator
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To: an amused spectator
Your mind is made up. You're not debating - anyone could answer the question you posed. You shilling for money or for free?

If anyone could answer the question I posed, why didn't you?

16 posted on 09/03/2003 4:29:01 AM PDT by Jack Wilson
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DVD's and CD's are among the most durable products you can purchase; why do you need a backup?

Obviously a fictious RIAA industry a**hole who doesn't have children or grandchildren. Or as my wife says a lot: "I can't have anything nice".

17 posted on 09/03/2003 6:18:52 AM PDT by an amused spectator
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To: Jack Wilson
You don't have to believe that all music should be free to know that the RIAA is pure evil.
18 posted on 09/03/2003 6:23:54 AM PDT by Sloth ("I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!" -- Jacobim Mugatu, 'Zoolander')
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To: an amused spectator
Be careful, soon you'll be called a thief for asserting that the RIAA has problems which could be solved without any litigation.
19 posted on 09/03/2003 6:24:13 AM PDT by Principled
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To: Principled
If anyone could answer the question I posed, why didn't you?

You know, this "thief" gets tired of the disingenuous "arguments" put up on the RIAA threads. Effing "Jack Wilson" acts likes he's never seen a child or grandchild In The Form Of The Destructor (to borrow a phrase from Ghostbusters).

**sigh** I suppose that is a "copyright violation" also. ;-)

20 posted on 09/03/2003 6:44:38 AM PDT by an amused spectator
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To: an amused spectator
this is analogous to telling a newspaper not to print a news story.

Google has no control of internet content, it only provides a search engine. Search engines are GOOD and necessary, and crippling them is not good.

bad bad bad court decision
21 posted on 09/03/2003 6:49:16 AM PDT by Mr. K (not enough coffee yet for witty tag-line)
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To: Sloth
You don't have to believe that all music should be free to know that the RIAA is pure evil.

I did not know that. I stand corrected.

22 posted on 09/03/2003 7:35:41 AM PDT by Jack Wilson
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To: Mr. K
bad bad bad court decision

It wasn't a court decision, Google just chose to comply with their letter... BUT Google also linked their letter, which has all the URLs listed right on it... LOL. Serves RIAA right for trying to control information.

23 posted on 09/03/2003 7:50:57 AM PDT by Sloth ("I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!" -- Jacobim Mugatu, 'Zoolander')
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To: Jack Wilson
why do you need a backup?

Quite frankly, that's none of your business - using the same logic, why do you need a backup of a cassette or a book or a magazine or a videotape?

The "why" is immaterial.

You want to debate the logic of actually getting it, fine. But when you get into challenging the "why", you begin treading on an individuals sovreign rights. For all you know, the backup copy is so that the original can be crushed in a compactor. As long as the copy is not being sold, it shouldn't matter.

24 posted on 09/03/2003 7:56:36 AM PDT by mhking
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To: Howlin; Ed_NYC; MonroeDNA; widgysoft; Springman; Timesink; dubyaismypresident; Grani; coug97; ...
This is getting totally ridiculous.

Sharman's problem is that the unaltered Kazaa software includes a method for Sharman usurping the user's bandwidth via some trojan spyware. Kazaa Lite disables that capability without damaging the capability of the sharing software.

Sharman figures that if they piss in the pool (to take a page from the Microsoft/AOL playbook), everyone will come flocking back to their shop for a fix.

Just damn.

If you want on the new list, FReepmail me. This IS a high-volume PING list...

25 posted on 09/03/2003 8:00:55 AM PDT by mhking
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To: mhking
When you buy a song or a movie, you are not really the new owner of that work; you are merely a licensee. The proponents of digital theft apparently feel that someone can spend a year and millions of dollars producing a work and then is only entitled to sell one copy of that work. Or is even that considered greed? Everyone else who wants a free copy is entitled to it?

Anyone else see the irony in Kazaa complaining about copyright infringement?

26 posted on 09/03/2003 8:08:03 AM PDT by Jack Wilson
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To: Jack Wilson
Everyone else who wants a free copy is entitled to it?

Then why am I able to burn a copy onto CD for my own backup? Or are you telling me that's illegal too?

Anyone else see the irony in Kazaa complaining about copyright infringement?

Indeed. But some would insist it's a matter of degrees.

27 posted on 09/03/2003 8:12:20 AM PDT by mhking (Kazaa/Sharmann has alterior motives.)
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To: JOE6PAK
There's Yahoo
28 posted on 09/03/2003 8:14:10 AM PDT by Sofa King (-I am Sofa King- tired of liberal BS! http://www.angelfire.com/art2/sofaking/)
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To: Jack Wilson
I do check it out now and then out of curiosity. And this thread, which seems to support the idea that recorded music should be free, would fit right in.

Actually, you seem to be supporting the idea that American citizens should not be allowed to even DISCUSS THE EXISTENCE of certain sites.

29 posted on 09/03/2003 8:18:47 AM PDT by Timesink
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To: chance33_98
Ok - now I'm mad. Leave Google alone. It is my friend and helper who never fills me up and never lets me down.

Gum

30 posted on 09/03/2003 8:28:25 AM PDT by ChewedGum (http://king-of-fools.blogspot.com)
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To: mhking
Then why am I able to burn a copy onto CD for my own backup? Or are you telling me that's illegal too?

No, I'm not saying its illegal. I'm not even saying that file-sharing ala Kazaa is illegal. But it has the potential to wipe out entire industries (music/movies/games/book publishing) involving creative works. The law needs to catch up with the digital age.

31 posted on 09/03/2003 8:29:35 AM PDT by Jack Wilson
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To: Jack Wilson
The moment the RIAA acknowledges that I have a right to copy my own legal CDs to my hard drive as mp3s or oggs is the moment I care about their profits.
32 posted on 09/03/2003 2:56:02 PM PDT by CodeMonkey
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To: Jack Wilson
The law needs to catch up with the digital age.

The law never got lost in the race behind the advancement of technology, only law enforcement. The same old copyright infringement laws worked just as good then as they do now. Any law that only works when you make extreme examples out of someone is a pointless law. If there are so many people committing infringement then copyright itself needs to be reexamined. It never occurs to many that copyright itself is what needs to catch up with the "digital age." The number of infringing Americans is now probably around 30%-40% of our country.

When you have numbers that high you have to question the principle and the law. Copyrights should still be respected and mass infringers should be sued, but it should not be a criminal offense unless you are selling the copies. Copyright needs to evolve and become more liberal, not more authoritarian.

In this debate you are either with those of us who want to reform the law and bring it into balance with the realities of modern technology and society or with those who want to regulate everything that could infringe into the ground. There is no middle ground here. You are either for total government intervention or against it. Without total government intervention into all areas of computer development you can't stop this phenomenon. You simply couldn't enforce the laws without it.

33 posted on 09/03/2003 3:12:33 PM PDT by CodeMonkey
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To: Jack Wilson
? DVD's and CD's are among the most durable products you can purchase; why do you need a backup?

Allow me to prove that you need backups. I'll let my 3 year old next to your CD / DVD collection (he treats them like frisbees).

34 posted on 09/03/2003 3:18:02 PM PDT by Centurion2000 (We are crushing our enemies, seeing him driven before us and hearing the lamentations of the liberal)
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To: chance33_98
Sharman Networks, the developers of the popular Kazaa P2P site, sent a letter to Google requesting that it remove links to certain sites.

Shouldn't the headline read, "Google squeezed by Sharman?"

35 posted on 09/03/2003 3:22:01 PM PDT by Fifth Business
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To: Jack Wilson
When you buy a song or a movie, you are not really the new owner of that work; you are merely a licensee.

You mean the buyer doesn't own the physical object, the CD, DVD, the box they came in, the cover? That is to say, he's not free to do as he likes with them? Call the cops if he accidentally tears a CD cover? What exactly is being licensed?

36 posted on 09/03/2003 3:23:34 PM PDT by Revolting cat! (Go ahead, make my day and re-state the obvious! Again!)
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To: Jack Wilson
So when you buy a copy of a book, the publisher also has to supply free copies in any other medium you wish? Why?

Who said anything about the publisher having to supply such copies?

There is a very long-standing practice that someone who purchases a copyrighted work also purchases the rights to do certain things with that work. Even going back before the days of computers and photocopiers, it was recognized that certain types of transcription were both reasonable and proper. For example, someone who wished to record(*) a version of a piece of music on a saxophone quarted would be expected to transcribe the music into the keys necessary for the different instruments. The person would be required to purchase as many copies of the parts as would be necessary without copying(**) but would not have to pay anything extra for the transcription rights unless the transcriptions themselves were distributed.

(*) It would be necessary to obtain a compulsory license for the recording within 30 days of its production; this license would not have any associated fees or payments, however, unless or until the recording was sold or otherwise distributed. If the recording ended up being shelved no fees would be due.

(**) Generally this would imply one part per person, though if the original purchased music printed e.g. first and second clarinet parts on the same page and the transcription listed first and second saxophone on the same page, it would probably be acceptable to have both players reading off the same copy of the transcription. Note, however, that if only the second-saxophone part had to be transposed, it would probably be necessary either to transcribe both parts onto the same new page (off of which both performers would play) or else buy two copies of the page (one of which would be used as-is, and the other of which would be transposed).

The RIAA, in insisting that music must never be copied in any form, is going against very long-standing tradition. Their position would be much more supportable if they were to require that a copy of a work be purchased for every copy which is in use.

BTW, CD's can and do go bad.

37 posted on 09/03/2003 4:03:18 PM PDT by supercat (TAG--you're it!)
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To: Jack Wilson
DVD's and CD's are among the most durable products you can purchase; why do you need a backup?

You've never lived in a house with young kids, have you? The things get dropped, stepped on, etc. One scratch and they're useless.

38 posted on 09/03/2003 4:14:16 PM PDT by SauronOfMordor (Java/C++/Unix/Web Developer === needs a job at the moment)
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To: Jack Wilson
So when you buy a copy of a book, the publisher also has to supply free copies in any other medium you wish? Why?

Straw-man argument. The publisher of a book does not supply me with a microfilm copy, but he doesn't complain if I choose to create one for my own purposes, nor does he complain if I choose to scan a purchased book into my PC for my own purposes

39 posted on 09/03/2003 4:17:40 PM PDT by SauronOfMordor (Java/C++/Unix/Web Developer === needs a job at the moment)
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To: Jack Wilson
So when you buy a copy of a book, the publisher also has to supply free copies in any other medium you wish? Why?

No one I know of is demanding this right. What we are demanding is to be left the hell alone in regard to how we use our DVDs and other media in our homes, cars, computers, etc. If I buy a DVD I should have a legal right to convert its data to a VCD for viewing on one of my older PCs. You are guilty of a felony under the DMCA if you do that.

40 posted on 09/03/2003 5:06:42 PM PDT by CodeMonkey
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To: chance33_98
I see I'm outnumbered. Very few seem to consider the rights of the creators and distributors (publishers) of the work.

I still think these are the same views I would read on Democratic Underground, with the possible exception being that Demo's always ask why CD's cost $15 when they only cost a quarter to make...

41 posted on 09/03/2003 6:16:52 PM PDT by Jack Wilson
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To: Jack Wilson
I see I'm outnumbered. Very few seem to consider the rights of the creators and distributors (publishers) of the work.

Most people here, I suspect, believe that someone who buys a CD has a right to copy that CD onto any format for their own use, but do not have the right to indiscriminately such distribute copies to others.

The RIAA does not believe that people have any of those rights; the Kazaaphiles (and probably most people on DU) believe people have all of them. Why do you believe everyone who wants the former rights believes in the latter?

42 posted on 09/03/2003 6:20:11 PM PDT by supercat (TAG--you're it!)
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To: supercat
Most people here, I suspect, believe that someone who buys a CD has a right to copy that CD onto any format for their own use

I don't think a publisher would have any problem with that in theory. What is happening though, is that characters like the guy who said that the 'RIAA is pure evil' will make that one copy --- onto a shared site from which millions can make their copies. Remember, these copies are identical to the master now in the digital age. Qualitatively different from the old days when we would make a copy of our Clapton vinyl LP onto a cassette.

I am a registered owner of Microsoft Access 2000 which has an elaborate imbedded scheme to prevent duplication. My license allows me to install it on 2 devices. When a computer dies and I replace it with a new one, I have to make a phone call to Microsoft and key in a lengthy string of numbers to activate the software and pledge that I still have it installed only on 2 computers. Hackers may have a way around this, but I don't have a problem with it beyond the annoyance. This software took dozens, maybe hundreds of people to develop. I respect their work and want them to keep on doing it. They won't if they aren't making any money.

43 posted on 09/03/2003 6:50:37 PM PDT by Jack Wilson
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To: Jack Wilson; supercat
Your entire post confirms that you are confused about the nature of knowledge and the digital revolution, Wilson. I myself have NEVER once used a CD or DVD downloading service or scheme, though I am fully capable of utilizing such things to the max, being a highly proficient computer geek type.

I have found that with the music collection I have now, I can just make CD copies within my own collection and leave the RIAA & its allies to go hang. I have no interest in contributing a nickel toward their financial well-being. This is the revolution I'm talking about - people have enough media now to stay within their own little circle of entertainment without purchasing any more. I have enough books, VHS tapes, CDs, cassettes, vinyl and DVDs to boycott the information Nazis. Screw them - they could have implemented micropayment-type schemes by now, but they're only interested in getting a double sawbuck for the "privilege" of cutting out the middleman. It's like charging 10 bucks every time you use an ATM. They're going to pay for their lack of vision.

And if you don't cut the crap about "why would you need a backup copy", Wilson, I'll label you a troll on the RIAA threads. One of my grandchildren trashed a brand-new DVD from The Fellowship extended edition before I even viewed it. My wife rented a DVD this week, and we were watching it tonight when it burped several times. She laughed when I told her about your post.

I'm running into too many Freepers these days who are trolling on certain subjects. It's BS, and I'm tired of it. You want to have a discussion, fine. I don't need your kind cluttering up the discourse with cow pies. Debate in good faith.

supercat - I flagged you because I know you're in my league when it comes to this stuff, and because you're willing to discuss it fairly. :-)

44 posted on 09/03/2003 8:29:18 PM PDT by an amused spectator
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To: chance33_98
"It has listed the full URLs of the sites it has removed,"

thats too funny!

Ok no problem we'll remove those links you don't want people to see.

Oh by the way everyone just fyi these are the links that we removed.
45 posted on 09/03/2003 8:33:04 PM PDT by battousai (Hello... Hello... is this thing on?)
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To: an amused spectator
How would you differentiate your views from those on Democratic Underground?
46 posted on 09/04/2003 4:41:41 AM PDT by Jack Wilson
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Comment #47 Removed by Moderator

To: CodeMonkey
The number of infringing Americans is now probably around 30%-40% of our country. When you have numbers that high you have to question the principle and the law.

Well stated. This simple fact seems to go over the head of most of society and, amazingly, most on this freedom loving forum.

What really upsets me is when I hear a Senator or a Congressman (or the RIAA) explain how a new law they want passed is intended to "send a message". If it is the law then it is the law. If you are not willing to arrest all the offendors, charge them with a crime and prosecute them then you have bad law. (I will avoid getting into the drug laws here since we are focused on the P2P-RIAA issue but the principle is very much the same.)

48 posted on 09/04/2003 5:48:21 AM PDT by InterceptPoint
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To: chance33_98
Thanks to all who have posted on this thread. While I previously had some doubts about my position, you have helped me make up my mind.
49 posted on 09/04/2003 7:12:56 AM PDT by Jack Wilson
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To: supercat
I'm running into too many Freepers these days who are trolling on certain subjects. It's BS, and I'm tired of it. You want to have a discussion, fine. I don't need your kind cluttering up the discourse with cow pies. Debate in good faith.

Looks like I got Jack Wilson's number - he's apparently trolling on the RIAA threads. I heard that he's recommending that law enforcement get rid of Kevlar vests and go to CD/DVD chain mail, because the media is bullet-proof. **snicker**

What is the point of an insincere debate, anyway? I've been seeing a lot of that lately. It's tiresome.

50 posted on 09/04/2003 7:28:25 AM PDT by an amused spectator
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